PVP game mode needs rewards to make it alive once again.

I hope it is clear for devs now that pvp game mode needs better and nicer rewards in order to make it appealing for people to play it.

Ever since the event came out with moogle tomestones pvp queue times got massively shorter comparing to what it used to be.

So maybe its time to push it even further, why not make pvp another way of gearing up the character, where with wolf marks we will be able to buy 460 ilvl items with slightly alternated look?
It will be a big step forward for those who are not into savage raiding, so next to the tomestones capping there would be something else to do in a week that will allow them to upgrade the gear.
We need better rewards for pvp or it will stay ded after event run out.

Frontlines is already filled with afkers and people who don’t care about winning because they get their moogle tomes no matter what. I don’t think PVP-focused people want PVE-focused people in there anymore.

well it a good then then that "pvp focused people" do not have a choice if "pve focused people" can enter pvp or not, God forbid non harcore pvp players wanna do some pvp.. i mean afterall it is part of the game and subscription... am i right.. am i right?

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Frontlines is already filled with afkers and people who don’t care about winning because they get their moogle tomes no matter what. I don’t think PVP-focused people want PVE-focused people in there anymore.

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You don't pay my sub.

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Frontlines is already filled with afkers and people who don’t care about winning because they get their moogle tomes no matter what. I don’t think PVP-focused people want PVE-focused people in there anymore.

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Frontlines isn't really the premier PVP mode out of what's available, and is naturally an imbalanced mess just on the basis that you have 3 large teams of randoms competing against each other. You'd have more of an argument with Feast, but not a lot of people I know farming tomes chose to do Feast unless they already had a passing interest in it.

Reasons to actually play PVP more often, and increase the general population of the gamemodes, so that there's more people willing to try it and perhaps stick with it if they like it is still a better outcome than: "We can't give anyone anything because what if they afk." At that point may as well just shut down the game, since there'll always be people looking for the road of least resistance to get something they want.

I don't really think Savage gear is the answer, but in general I'd play PvP more if it felt more rewarding for the investment of time.

I've always felt that PvP could benefit from something that tracks individual contribution. Keep the PvP-centric rewards, the xp and wolf marks, based on whether your team wins, but things like tomestones should take into account how much you personally did. Point being if both sides fight hard, they both get tomestones and/or xp like they would if they'd put that effort into a dungeon, but someone just idling the whole match shouldn't get anything.

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Frontlines is already filled with afkers and people who don’t care about winning because they get their moogle tomes no matter what. I don’t think PVP-focused people want PVE-focused people in there anymore.

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You know, you actually used to be able to gear up your PvE classes using PvP gear (sort of) , back in HW I think, and there really wasn't that many afkers back then.


They could at least release another set of glamour items, like they did in SB.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

You know, you actually used to be able to gear up your PvE classes using PvP gear (sort of) , back in HW I think, and there really wasn't that many afkers back then.


They could at least release another set of glamour items, like they did in SB.

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Well, while you could gear up jobs with the Garo gear, the ilvl of the Garo gear was considerably lower than the current ilvl of the time. (dropped in patch 3.5 when the ilvl was 270, Garo stuff was i235.)
I'd also say there wasn't as many afkers since the Garo event stuff actively required to win the content (All three mounts require wins in their respective content, winning got you more wolf marks which got you the glamour/titles faster, etc.), whereas right now you can afk through an entire match and earn 5 moogle tomes no matter what.

Based on OP's description, they're wanting PVP to take a more active role in the current progression of our characters rather than giving the gear a weaker ilvl so it doesn't interfere with progression, which I severely disagree with, not to mention would require a large re-balancing of PVP currency to maintain parity with the locked weekly tomes of PVE. But beyond that, introducing PVP as a means to get current ilvl gear would turn it from an enjoyable side activity to forced busywork, attract a large amount of players who are only in PVP to get their currency and get out quickly instead of actually playing the content, or straight up disadvantages any player who has zero interest in all things PVP.

Not to mention Square would have to make everything more expensive, since their current weekly tomes is meant to control the rate at which players can earn 460 gear. Having two weekly currencies would double the rate of gear aquisition, so Square would have to then make everything more expensive to slide the rate of gear aquisition back to where they want it to be.

I'd advocate for PVP getting more minions, mounts and glamours (heck, even lower ilvl pieces that aren't infringing on tier progression like how Garo was.) that aren't locked behind Feast or achievement conditions, but PVP shouldn't be entrenching on current tier progression. It's a can of worms for the devs to open and can super quickly backfire on them.

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Originally Posted by Chrisnetika

well it a good then then that "pvp focused people" do not have a choice if "pve focused people" can enter pvp or not, God forbid non harcore pvp players wanna do some pvp.. i mean afterall it is part of the game and subscription... am i right.. am i right?

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If youre gonna stand around and leech and feed without even trying you dont belong in the match. No one minds if people arent the greatest at pvp so long as they try instead of running into a wall afk the whole time.

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Originally Posted by Chrisnetika

well it a good then then that "pvp focused people" do not have a choice if "pve focused people" can enter pvp or not, God forbid non harcore pvp players wanna do some pvp.. i mean afterall it is part of the game and subscription... am i right.. am i right?

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All I’m saying is that SE shouldn’t give afkers more incentive to ruin the enjoyment of PVPers. It’s frustrating af to get matched with people not even trying and I don’t even like PVP, but when I’m in there I am there to play and to try to win. Having a team full of people not playing to win sucks and they shouldn’t be in PVP at all. If SE adds a way to gear PVE through afking in frontlines it will only get worse.

I just want 8v8 Feast back... I miss that mode FIERCELY and am not at all surprised that Feast is dead otherwise since they removed it. BRING IT BACK SE.

You're not wrong. I remember when the Garo event first went live...suddenly every PvP mode was active and with very short queues at pretty much every hour of the day. More people would try out ranked PvP if they actually had the ability to earn past season rewards. Though unfortunately the development team have ruled that out for now even though early seasons were dominated by win traders and some of the current day rankings are bought and paid for with real world money.

Alas, the ball tends to be dropped when it comes to PvP in MMO's since there's odd desperation to make it into an 'e-sport'.

If Square Enix wants PVP to be successful, they need to make it better.
It's pointless to add rewards tied to it since people will just stop playing PVP once they get what they wanted, and if they're exclusive like Feast rewards, people will try to wintrade or complain on the forums since they can't obtain them, because all they care about would be the rewards, not the game mode itself.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I've always felt that PvP could benefit from something that tracks individual contribution. Keep the PvP-centric rewards, the xp and wolf marks, based on whether your team wins, but things like tomestones should take into account how much you personally did. Point being if both sides fight hard, they both get tomestones and/or xp like they would if they'd put that effort into a dungeon, but someone just idling the whole match shouldn't get anything.

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This idea is a great one. If everyone had to try hard then they'd put effort.

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Originally Posted by Wegente

If Square Enix wants PVP to be successful, they need to make it better.
It's pointless to add rewards tied to it since people will just stop playing PVP once they get what they wanted, and if they're exclusive like Feast rewards, people will try to wintrade or complain on the forums since they can't obtain them, because all they care about would be the rewards, not the game mode itself.

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Fixing netcode, damage registration would be great start, but instead we got new map for few weeks until its abbadoned. Later even SE just block it out of duty to add a new one for another 2-3 weeks.

Nuh not really. You can throw all the rewards in the world at people and it might even make them queue more... but if you actually want to do PvP for fun/challenge/any meaningful reason, do you REALLY want half your party to be in it just for the loot, full stop, and not care at all about the competition? Artificially inflating participation only results in a mass of players who at best run around like a bunch of headless chickens because they have no idea what to do (they're there just for the tokens and maybe to accidentally get carried to victory if the other team happens to have relatively more people who don't care) and at worst actively feed the enemy to make the match as short as physically possible.

Rewards don't make PvP better. And they sure as anything don't make players want to be better at it. Until they make the experience of playing PvP feel intrinsically rewarding, no amount of extrinsic rewards will make it worth most players' time.

But even if they did make it amazing, PvP is still not everyone's kupo nut. There are people who, no matter what, will never ever enjoy it, end of story, and luring them in with rewards that are hard to ignore would only make them miserable. I even suspect that the majority of people who are interested in PvP in FF14 are already playing it so the population has little potential for substantial growth.

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Frontlines is already filled with afkers and people who don’t care about winning because they get their moogle tomes no matter what. I don’t think PVP-focused people want PVE-focused people in there anymore.

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Sure I do, they're easy wins.
But man I wish they toned down rewards for the losing teams. Don't take them completely away, I need my fodder to chew, but to give less incentive to afk. I need a challenge.

I rather have more Eureka with fate trains than spam more PvP.

The thing is PvP modes are generally seen more apprehensive for a lot of people to start. I think the people who are saying rewards won't matter because people should PvP because they like to PvP are underestimating the benefit of getting people to try it. Heck, while I loved PvP in more skill-bases MMORPGs I never wanted to try it in FFXIV because tab target MMOs are relatively shallow and very poorly indexed towards ability (compared to, say, fighting games). It was only the constant addition of exclusive things that got me to try it, and by requiring prolonged play I gave it a genuine chance. I was able to accept that while it's not the best PvP game, it's still a lot of fun.

FFXIV is a fundamentally PvE game. When you start you are dropped into PvE. Most of the experiences are PvE. You can't even PvP from the get-go if you wanted to. It's not really reasonable to try to analogize that people who want to PvP are already PvPing. People often don't know what they wanted until they get it, or it's exposed to them, and a lot of people are going to become those who can enjoy PvP as a side activity in addition to PvE. IMO casual PvPers should be welcomed and the goofy, random, volatile gameplay of frontlines is the most casual, least competitive, and relaxed gateway to try to coax them into trying it.

I also don't think it's fair to say people who like PvP will PvP without rewards. Someone like myself these days? Yeah I have long since gotten everything I could from wolf marks and tomestones but I keep PvPing because it's fun, but gamers in general like external motivators, not unlike those in PvE would run less dungeons if they didn't get some kind of virtual reward for it. It's hard to quantify if what PvP already had was gripping enough to pull people in, and timed rewards could be just that little bit to get someone to reconsider.

Imo you should get rewarded more if you win and less if you lose. But it's not like that for experience and moogle tomestones, so this behavior of not participating can flourish.
I hope they add incentives for players who play feast but don't reach top100 more, wolf collar weapons aren't enough and old by now. But I don't see how frontline needs these incentives.
Either you find it fun or you can wait until it ends up fun one day maybe.

Yeah, tiered rewards should be a thing

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Originally Posted by Bonbori

Nuh not really. You can throw all the rewards in the world at people and it might even make them queue more... but if you actually want to do PvP for fun/challenge/any meaningful reason, do you REALLY want half your party to be in it just for the loot, full stop, and not care at all about the competition? Artificially inflating participation only results in a mass of players who at best run around like a bunch of headless chickens because they have no idea what to do (they're there just for the tokens and maybe to accidentally get carried to victory if the other team happens to have relatively more people who don't care) and at worst actively feed the enemy to make the match as short as physically possible.

Rewards don't make PvP better. And they sure as anything don't make players want to be better at it. Until they make the experience of playing PvP feel intrinsically rewarding, no amount of extrinsic rewards will make it worth most players' time.

But even if they did make it amazing, PvP is still not everyone's kupo nut. There are people who, no matter what, will never ever enjoy it, end of story, and luring them in with rewards that are hard to ignore would only make them miserable. I even suspect that the majority of people who are interested in PvP in FF14 are already playing it so the population has little potential for substantial growth.

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I dont care as long as pvp queue times will be 5-10 minutes and not 30+ like it was before the event.

PVE is also only progression based activity, is earth still in one piece? yes it is, and people do PVE mainly for progression, this is not argument against it. Progression is the main motivation to do anything in the game, and here is a boomer: If you do well in pvp (your team winning) you are getting more wolf marks so yes, there is a reason to play pvp better instead of afking.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Based on OP's description, they're wanting PVP to take a more active role in the current progression of our characters rather than giving the gear a weaker ilvl so it doesn't interfere with progression, which I severely disagree with, not to mention would require a large re-balancing of PVP currency to maintain parity with the locked weekly tomes of PVE. But beyond that, introducing PVP as a means to get current ilvl gear would turn it from an enjoyable side activity to forced busywork, attract a large amount of players who are only in PVP to get their currency and get out quickly instead of actually playing the content, or straight up disadvantages any player who has zero interest in all things PVP.

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Giving pvpers a way to progress in game will not cripple in any way people who are playing pve.
It is already easy enough to get 460 ilvl gear through pve and you could do it in 1-2 month of playing, it will not hurt anyone to give a another way to get gear and other thingies.
Is it fair that pvpers are chained down with their progression and punish them with high queue times if they could be fixed super easily?
It will also relieve dps players, because instead of waiting 30-60 minutes for a duty they could go play pvp and still progress.

More diversion in progression process does not hurt anyone but makes game more appealing to those who like certain stuff in the game, it will make game richer in content, instead of just capped tomestone which you could cap in 1 day and has nothing else to do for the rest of 6 days.

You already get tomestones for playing PvP. Adding lvl80 gear for wolfmarks would just mean you double the pool of gear upgrades, or even unlimit it, cause wolfmarks have no weekly limit. It would be imbalanced, if it wouldn't be something like i430 gear atm.

The big issue is the entry level for PvP, it is level 30 - if you add level 80 rewards, all the people can't even use them. That is why stormblood gear is level 1.

I think if anything, they should just improve the rewards for playing well.

The lack of incentive to improve is kind of an issue in XIV in general, and I don't think it would hurt to reward players extra marks and such for meeting certain damage/assist/kill counts, being the ones with the highest on their team and/or actively penalizing players who are not even trying to win.

I don't agree that there should be more rewards for PvP. In fact I think that the only thing that is keeping PvP afloat in this game and not completely ignored is that they insist on putting unique rewards in it. It's as though the rewards were specially designed to attract people that would get no enjoyment from PvP otherwise. It's almost as if someone is trying to incentivize people to do it whether they like it or not so that they can get numbers in queues to validate its existence.

I would go so far as to say that they spend way too many resources on PvP. They just did a rework of PvP skills for Shadowbringers and now they are doing another one to add new skills, while in the meantime PvE DPS balance is a mess (hopefully fixed with next week's patch) and many jobs had half-done changes that clearly could have used more time spent on them.

I don't agree that there should be more rewards for PvE. In fact I think that the only thing that is keeping PvE afloat in this game and not completely ignored is that they insist on putting unique rewards in it. It's as though the rewards were specially designed to attract people that would get no enjoyment from PvE otherwise. It's almost as if someone is trying to incentivize people to do it whether they like it or not so that they can get numbers in queues to validate its existence.

I would go so far as to say that they spend way too many resources on PvE. They just did a rework of PvE skills for Shadowbringers and now they are doing another one to add new skills, while in the meantime PvP balance is a mess (hopefully fixed with next week's patch) and many jobs had half-done changes that clearly could have used more time spent on them.

Alive is one thing, invested is another. The only thing more rewards do for pvp is definitely prevent it from flatlining vut also guarantees a greater increase of people merely wanting to get through an instance rather than actually enjoying it.

So long story short, nah, I'm not up for "just rewards" as a solution to keeping pvp "alive".

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Originally Posted by Moonfish

Frontlines is already filled with afkers and people who don’t care about winning because they get their moogle tomes no matter what. I don’t think PVP-focused people want PVE-focused people in there anymore.

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^^^ This here. I can't stand PvP in this game. It just feels bad to me but I find myself having to do frontlines once in a while for wolf marks if I want some cool glam gear. I grind my teeth doing it and hate every second of it but it's something I need to do to get said gear.

I did enjoy Feast for a while, but Frontlines and Rival Wings is pretty much Garbo PVP content and just isn't fun for anyone. The whole thing with 3 teams in a match is just stupid and needs to go. It also doesnt feel like you are making any impact on games unless your running a premade with good players or something.

I havent been bothered doing PVP since Shadowbringers was realeased because their whole overhaul on the jobs is pretty bad and they even manged to dumb it down even more. Also Feast Seasons is gone and who knows if they gonna bring it back they seem to be putting more effort in a stupid Frontline map who none cares about.

Yeah, I didn't mind back in HW if the q times were 30mins, because I genuinely enjoyed PvP back then, and using all my skills in PvP.
It just hasn't been the same since SB. They dumbed it down to try to appeal to more players, but all they did was make it less fun instead. They should have just put a greater variety of game modes.
I mean, look at dungeons in this game. There's a crap ton of them, barely any diversity between them, most go unused once you outlevel/outgear them. They could release a few less dungeons and put it into developing some game modes for PvP which are more fun.

I suspect 5.1 will have a new set of pvp glams for wolfs marks, but that's just me speculating. I could be wrong.

I think having some of the best looking gear in the game is a pretty good reward. I just wish they weren't each locked to a single job

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Originally Posted by snipski

I did enjoy Feast for a while, but Frontlines and Rival Wings is pretty much Garbo PVP content and just isn't fun for anyone. The whole thing with 3 teams in a match is just stupid and needs to go. It also doesnt feel like you are making any impact on games unless your running a premade with good players or something.

I havent been bothered doing PVP since Shadowbringers was realeased because their whole overhaul on the jobs is pretty bad and they even manged to dumb it down even more. Also Feast Seasons is gone and who knows if they gonna bring it back they seem to be putting more effort in a stupid Frontline map who none cares about.

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Im actually excited for Seal Rock2. Cause its the first time in..how many years that Frontlines got anything new?!
Heck Rival Wings got a 2nd map WAY before any of the Frontline Maps.
If anything, the score limit needs to be abit shorter, at least on Secure (The WORSE PvP mode), and I dont know exaclty how wit

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Frontlines isn't really the premier PVP mode out of what's available, and is naturally an imbalanced mess just on the basis that you have 3 large teams of randoms competing against each other. You'd have more of an argument with Feast, but not a lot of people I know farming tomes chose to do Feast unless they already had a passing interest in it.

Reasons to actually play PVP more often, and increase the general population of the gamemodes, so that there's more people willing to try it and perhaps stick with it if they like it is still a better outcome than: "We can't give anyone anything because what if they afk." At that point may as well just shut down the game, since there'll always be people looking for the road of least resistance to get something they want.

I don't really think Savage gear is the answer, but in general I'd play PvP more if it felt more rewarding for the investment of time.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I've always felt that PvP could benefit from something that tracks individual contribution. Keep the PvP-centric rewards, the xp and wolf marks, based on whether your team wins, but things like tomestones should take into account how much you personally did. Point being if both sides fight hard, they both get tomestones and/or xp like they would if they'd put that effort into a dungeon, but someone just idling the whole match shouldn't get anything.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think if anything, they should just improve the rewards for playing well.

The lack of incentive to improve is kind of an issue in XIV in general, and I don't think it would hurt to reward players extra marks and such for meeting certain damage/assist/kill counts, being the ones with the highest on their team and/or actively penalizing players who are not even trying to win.

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So the bolded parts mostly sums up my general take, though I have specific thoughts about implementation, etc.

Maybe if it felt like an actually pvp background instead of a zergfest train wreck more ppl would do it