Please return AST card gameplay.

The joy in playing the AST was the random factor of the cards. Please bring something like that back. This AST gameplay is lame.

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Originally Posted by ErikValens

The joy in playing the AST was the random factor of the cards. Please bring something like that back. This AST gameplay is lame.

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Not without tweaks, of course. Ewer and Spire's effects would have to be reworked, since TP doesn't exist and MP sustain is self-only. I'd also like to see all Royal Road effects be equal (not x1.5, x2 and, x3) or the stronger effects on damage cards, rather than support cards.
Old AST felt more rewarding to play than New AST, but it wasn't without issues.

I totally agree! I'd love to see the old AST card system back. I loved the diversity it gave, but it would need to be tweaked since most people were only fishing for certain cards. The new system is boring.

I would love it if they revert back to the old system but made some tweaks to it.
Spire 5% direct hit Buff on player
Ewer: 50 potency MP Regen cause Astro needs it
Bole: Defense buff 15 seconds
Balance: Instead of 5% damage make it 3% damage for player
Spear: Increase critical chance by 5%
arrow: Increase attack speed/spell speed by 5%
Lord of Crowns: Increase damage dealt by 5%
Lady of Crowns: When used, Heals player for 250 potency

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Old AST felt more rewarding to play than New AST, but it wasn't without issues.

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Quoted for truth.

If I had to chose between old AST with old AST issues and new AST I would pick old AST. New AST feels like too much work for too little gain.

I agree!! I quit ast after shadowbringers launch but have kept trying it out in hopes i'll find it fun, but it just isn't anymore. I really miss healing and ast was the only healer I was really drawn to because of the unique card system it had. I'm still holding out hope they'll change it back with some tweaks of course in 5.1 but that's very unlikely.

Sorry to be the debbedowner, but this is their current stance on the card system


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/402453
(00:29:01)
Q: Thanks for the adjustments made towards astrologian! Both the controllability and heal potency has increased and it feels much better. Do you have any plans to add new effects to the cards?
A: We are truly sorry about the initial issues with the feel of the job that resulted from various adjustments to reduce its party synergy.

Regarding card effects, they were changed to their current iteration because we received feedback from all regions that players did not want "useless cards." While the current iteration does indeed reduce the excitement of drawing a "good card", if we were to add various different card effects, then we would just return to fishing for the most favorable one, so we decided to simplify it. We plan on continuing with the current iteration for now

I would gladly take Old AST's card system with all its faults if i could but this is something we probably won't see again until 6.0 at the earliest. Keep asking for it maybe they'll change it for 6.0 but right now we need ways to deal with current AST too since we have nearly 2 years of it to deal with.

Please don't, fishing for balance was boring at best. Cards variety only truly shined in dungeon where you could effectively go oom by aoeing, the melee could lack to and bole resulted in more dps (gravity)
It was boring in raid, bole never up when you'd need and you'd anyway feel bad using it, same goes for ewer and mp.:(
Always up when both healer are full mp, never when one just died.

In raid it was just fishing for a ewer/spire + balance (crit was fine tho)

The only thing I don't like about the new system is sleeve draw weave spam and the buff numerical value being too weak

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Please don't, fishing for balance was boring at best. Cards variety only truly shined in dungeon where you could effectively go oom by aoeing, the melee could lack to and bole resulted in more dps (gravity)
It was boring in raid, bole never up when you'd need and you'd anyway feel bad using it, same goes for ewer and mp.:(
Always up when both healer are full mp, never when one just died.

In raid it was just fishing for a ewer/spire + balance (crit was fine tho)

The only thing I don't like about the new system is sleeve draw weave spam and the buff numerical value being too weak

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Consistency is not the point of cards. It's chance, and math https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2317ip172lw

No. I like the new card system.

I miss getting an Arrow as a black mage. I regularly opted for it over balance (call me crazy if you wish but Fire 4 was practically machine gun speed when coupled with ley lines) :D

While I did like the old card system for dungeons, it was really just a fishing game in raids or trials. The new card system works better all around, though it is less interactive. A balance of the two would be nice, but probably not anytime soon.

I don't see how fishing for seals for a paltry gain is supposed to work better but you do you.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Sorry to be the debbedowner, but this is their current stance on the card system


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/402453
(00:29:01)
Q: Thanks for the adjustments made towards astrologian! Both the controllability and heal potency has increased and it feels much better. Do you have any plans to add new effects to the cards?
A: We are truly sorry about the initial issues with the feel of the job that resulted from various adjustments to reduce its party synergy.

Regarding card effects, they were changed to their current iteration because we received feedback from all regions that players did not want "useless cards." While the current iteration does indeed reduce the excitement of drawing a "good card", if we were to add various different card effects, then we would just return to fishing for the most favorable one, so we decided to simplify it. We plan on continuing with the current iteration for now

I would gladly take Old AST's card system with all its faults if i could but this is something we probably won't see again until 6.0 at the earliest. Keep asking for it maybe they'll change it for 6.0 but right now we need ways to deal with current AST too since we have nearly 2 years of it to deal with.

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Operative words being "for now." Bear in mind, this interview came not long after Savage released. We're not nearly four months into the expansion and the Astro population is on life support. At least at a Savage level. I don't imagine it's much better in easier content given the sheer amount of complaints and the fact White Mage is laughably superior in dungeons. Unfortunately, the dev team is notorious for being quite stubborn. But they did do a complete 180 on both Monk and Ninja when the community basically dropped both jobs like rocks. Perhaps the lack of interest with Astro will help. Either way, 5.1 will be quite telling. If the Range get a negligible buff like 1-2%, then it's safe to assume the dev team isn't paying attention. If it's more substantial, they could be hope for Astro yet.

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Originally Posted by CadvasLirigon

While I did like the old card system for dungeons, it was really just a fishing game in raids or trials. The new card system works better all around, though it is less interactive. A balance of the two would be nice, but probably not anytime soon.

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Now I fish for Seals while mindlessly throwing cards on either Samurai or Black Mages because they're the best targets 90% of the time, assuming they aren't terrible players. In dungeons, I straight up don't bother touching Sleeve Draw outside bosses in a lot of cases because that busywork risks the tank dying since Astro lacks the tools to rapidly burst someone back up. It's just not worth throwing out a pathetic 4% until I know things are well managed.

You hate fishing for balances but you basically do the same now - you fish for seals instead and it's 3 times more annoying.

I tried the new AST with a very open mind, I was very optimistic about the changes. I'm at leve 75 now and I really dislike the changes. Leveled SCH and WHM to 80 already and enjoying them a lot more. I used to main AST in SB and miss it a lot. :c

The new Card-System ist better than the old :)

I don't care about seals anymore,as long as i don't get 3 time the same seals

I highly rather fish for balance then those annoying things,also don't forget that you only get 5% on divination instead of 6% if you have 2 differents seals so you should save yourself some frustrations if you ask me

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Operative words being "for now." Bear in mind, this interview came not long after Savage released. We're not nearly four months into the expansion and the Astro population is on life support. At least at a Savage level. I don't imagine it's much better in easier content given the sheer amount of complaints and the fact White Mage is laughably superior in dungeons. Unfortunately, the dev team is notorious for being quite stubborn. But they did do a complete 180 on both Monk and Ninja when the community basically dropped both jobs like rocks. Perhaps the lack of interest with Astro will help. Either way, 5.1 will be quite telling. If the Range get a negligible buff like 1-2%, then it's safe to assume the dev team isn't paying attention. If it's more substantial, they could be hope for Astro yet.

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I wish i could be that optimistic to hope but if anything 3.X and 4.X has taught me about the job balance team and healers is they do not mix well, even when they have a semblance of balance they foobar it up(post 3.2 buffs to ast) or they just ignore the job that is hurting(Whm says high from SB) and as you say it seems to stem from a place of stubbornness to do anything about glaring issues that need to be addressed on all 3 healers.

Completely agree, I miss the old system so much. Not only is the current one less enjoyable but even the lore is completely screwed up. I can't imagine what new players have to be thinking doing the job quests as astrologian and seeing the discrepancy.

The old system, which I love, had two major flaws that were easily fixed without a rework. The first is that the cards were unbalanced and led to min-maxing savage raiders fishing for Balance. They just needed to tweak the numbers. Lower the damage buff Balance gave or increases the other values. Done.

The second problem was that you could get unlucky rng and draw utility cards (Ewer, Bole, Spire) too many times in a row. Utility cards weren't inherently bad because they could be consumed with Royal Road for the card buff. Well how about redesigning Redraw so that it only returns an offensive card (Arrow, Balance, Spear)? Of course Spire still needs a new role because TP is gone but they can just make it direct hit. So we'd end up with four offensive cards and two utility ones that can be consumed or used when needed.

I know they have the ability to reimplement the old system and I really, really hope they bite the bullet and admit the rework was a mistake and so. I will respect the ever living hell out of them if they do. The new system is so much less enjoyable even with Divination. It doesn't feel like an interesting job mechanic so much as a distracting minigame with less impact.

I mean even when I'm not playing Astrologian I miss the old card system. I miss getting 10% haste or 10% crit, especially the latter on my bard. It was so fun.

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Originally Posted by Vitreus

Completely agree, I miss the old system so much. Not only is the current one less enjoyable but even the lore is completely screwed up. I can't imagine what new players have to be thinking doing the job quests as astrologian and seeing the discrepancy.

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As one such new player, the departure from the lore was indeed as confusing and disappointing as you say. I came into 5.0 AST expecting a refreshing take on a support role having RNG mechanics to offset its amazing versatility, alongside it being the most thematically interesting to me out of all the healers. But aside from the admittedly beautiful effects and gorgeous aesthetic, it feels completely hollowed out.

Knowing what I do of the previous iterations of AST, it's almost insulting to see each card have a distinct visual when being casted despite having no such variety in its effect.

To think I could've played a class that was not only stunning to watch, but also incredibly involved and effective; to have all that in one was apparently too much.

if we still had old card system and made it only use in combat then there wont be any fishing. And cannot use the skill outside of combat,.

I love the old system.
For me, all card in the old system is useful.
If you get unwanted card, you can royal road and minor arcana.
Sleeve draw also match with the old syatem.
I like the way we have to think/decide for what we do with all of our card combination.

Current system just feel so dull and exhausting.

New system is what finally made me prefer AST over SCH so I'm good. Its more fun to coordinate the card cooldowns with the group I run stuff with then just fire and forget Chain Stratagem. What's tedious to y'all is something to track and manage and optimize for me.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

New system is what finally made me prefer AST over SCH so I'm good. Its more fun to coordinate the card cooldowns with the group I run stuff with then just fire and forget Chain Stratagem. What's tedious to y'all is something to track and manage and optimize for me.

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I'm not sure I'm following you. Cards in 4.X had the same 30s cooldown for everything, so you would still rotate around 30seconds cycles, which is the timeframe of most raid buffs. If anything, AST's current opener introduces some RNG to the timing/efficiency of Divination.

The only thing I prefer in 5.X system is having Draw's CD always cycling because it does not rely on you spreading, burning or playing the card anymore.

I have mixed feelings on the new system.

To start, with the cards themselves, I definitely liked the old effects more, barring Ewer and Spire. The new cards are just very boring.

What I do like about the new system:

• Draw CD not being held hostage.
• Being able to hold cards indefinitely.
• Redraw charges.
• The thematic appeal of Divination
• The death of Royal Road

This might sound odd but I actually feel the previous AST having three different ways of converting cards was very redundant, and symptomatic of a problem. If you were coming into FFXIV blind, Royal Road would look like a cool and interesting way of manipulating cards, but it was rarely an actual interesting decision. When Ewer and Spire could actually be useful it felt great but in most circumstances they were seen as a ticket to Expanded Royal Road and little else. Aside from that it was often used in situations like not being able to get value from Bole because you didn't have anyone tanking (common in alliance raids), or because a large stretch of time was impending and you simply wanted to do something with that card, of which the latter problem is not relevant anymore.

In the ideal world, every card you could ever draw would be useful and you would not need to convert it to anything, though realistically that often runs counter to more interesting design. 1-2 buttons to get value out of a Draw you didn't like is already a lot. To that end, one button to try to get a new card and another button to do something with it if you really just can't get anything with it is good and more than enough.

All that aside, I feel like it would have been more desirable to revise the old cards to be more competitive than ditch the system entirely. The cards did not have to be numerically equal, but merely feel like they could do anything at all. Not all attacks need to be crits, just like not all cards need to be Balance.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I'm not sure I'm following you. Cards in 4.X had the same 30s cooldown for everything, so you would still rotate around 30seconds cycles, which is the timeframe of most raid buffs. If anything, AST's current opener introduces some RNG to the timing/efficiency of Divination.

The only thing I prefer in 5.X system is having Draw's CD always cycling because it does not rely on you spreading, burning or playing the card anymore.

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What I'm saying is that I personally prefer the work of setting up Divination on ast then fire and forgetting Chain Stratagem on SCH. I play AST over SCH nowadays since the cards, for me, are something to track and optimize the use of compared to what SCH currently has. I like the idea of a decent chunk of my damage being from increasing the dps of others and having the hidden value of not clipping and extra mobility due to my shorter cast times on everything.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

What I'm saying is that I personally prefer the work of setting up Divination on ast then fire and forgetting Chain Stratagem on SCH. I play AST over SCH nowadays since the cards, for me, are something to track and optimize the use of compared to what SCH currently has. I like the idea of a decent chunk of my damage being from increasing the dps of others and having the hidden value of not clipping and extra mobility due to my shorter cast times on everything.

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I might agree with this sentiment if the AST's "dps of others" contribution was visible without running an illegal parser to see that small bump in the numbers.

I want my class to be fun playing. That's it.. It's not fun. It feels more like a chore. The "Only" thing I like is using Divination with a dancer's Tech step. Other than that... Cards are dull.. Astro used to be so much fun.. Throwing attack speeds on black mages, crit's on the bard so they could get more proc's.. It kills me on the inside.

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Originally Posted by Esmoire

I have mixed feelings on the new system.

To start, with the cards themselves, I definitely liked the old effects more, barring Ewer and Spire. The new cards are just very boring.

What I do like about the new system:

• Draw CD not being held hostage.
• Being able to hold cards indefinitely.
• Redraw charges.
• The thematic appeal of Divination
• The death of Royal Road

This might sound odd but I actually feel the previous AST having three different ways of converting cards was very redundant, and symptomatic of a problem. If you were coming into FFXIV blind, Royal Road would look like a cool and interesting way of manipulating cards, but it was rarely an actual interesting decision. When Ewer and Spire could actually be useful it felt great but in most circumstances they were seen as a ticket to Expanded Royal Road and little else. Aside from that it was often used in situations like not being able to get value from Bole because you didn't have anyone tanking (common in alliance raids), or because a large stretch of time was impending and you simply wanted to do something with that card, of which the latter problem is not relevant anymore.

In the ideal world, every card you could ever draw would be useful and you would not need to convert it to anything, though realistically that often runs counter to more interesting design. 1-2 buttons to get value out of a Draw you didn't like is already a lot. To that end, one button to try to get a new card and another button to do something with it if you really just can't get anything with it is good and more than enough.

All that aside, I feel like it would have been more desirable to revise the old cards to be more competitive than ditch the system entirely. The cards did not have to be numerically equal, but merely feel like they could do anything at all. Not all attacks need to be crits, just like not all cards need to be Balance.

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I somewhat agree with you when it comes to having multiple ways to "manipulate" the cards with RR and MA but now using MA to a card feels nothing as it just increases potency. It doesn't even feel like an upgrade considering how it measly increases the potency by one 2%. I personally think that RR and MA could've been combined now that they replaced all cards with DPS buffs and MA brings back the old effects or something.

I'd rather have MA begone and RR stay because I can feel as though I can do something else with my cards than just increasing the DPS buff I give to my party.

Leveling AST, I really miss the old card system. I could always find a use for a card, and now it’s just me internally cringing every time I pull a melee/tank card and thinking “welp, i’m giving these only to the tank this dungeon, since I only have ranged dps.” It feels like such a waste compared to the potencies and abilities I used to have to be able to manipulate cards a bit with royal road, celestial opposition, and time dilation (and these abilities also created opportunities for some nice regens) before Shadowbringers hit.

Now, the cards just feel like fodder for divination. Which is more work than it’s worth imo. I’m also really missing being able to ewer myself when lucid dreaming is on cool down. Not having another backup resource for mp regen like whm has with thin air and sch has with aetherflow also stinks.

Granted, I’m only at 72, SB AST was so multifaceted and fun to play. I’m not a fan of this new iteration. I’d gladly take the SB one back in a heartbeat. Same for SCH.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I'm not sure I'm following you. Cards in 4.X had the same 30s cooldown for everything, so you would still rotate around 30seconds cycles, which is the timeframe of most raid buffs. If anything, AST's current opener introduces some RNG to the timing/efficiency of Divination.

The only thing I prefer in 5.X system is having Draw's CD always cycling because it does not rely on you spreading, burning or playing the card anymore.

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In fact, the only good thing about 5.0 is the separation of Draw and Play. The rest are down right nerfs.

Older cards have 30s duration along with 30s draw cd, which aligns perfectly. The new cards are 15s duration, which is pretty meaningless for an already weak buff.
At this point, people who think their 15s single target cards are good buff to the teammates are delusional. DPS players DON'T FEEL A THING in those tiny buff window with that pitiful percentage buff. Some of that 15s is often wasted to do mechanics.

The noticeable buff is the AoE Divination that effects the entire party. Even though it's still a 15s tiny window, but at least 8 people adds up.

I will continue not give a single damn about single target card chores. I usually throw cards to 3 of 4 DPS players randomly to quickly gather my seals to get Divination ready. Like I have time to see what card I got or who to give to. My Malefics kill things faster than those single target cards could benefit a single person.

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Originally Posted by Miziliti

In fact, the only good thing about 5.0 is the separation of Draw and Play. The rest are down right nerfs.

Older cards have 30s duration along with 30s draw cd, which aligns perfectly. The new cards are 15s duration, which is pretty meaningless for an already weak buff.
At this point, people who think their 15s single target cards are good buff to the teammates are delusional. DPS players DON'T FEEL A THING in those tiny buff window with that pitiful percentage buff. Some of that 15s is often wasted to do mechanics.

The noticeable buff is the AoE Divination that effects the entire party. Even though it's still a 15s tiny window, but at least 8 people adds up.

I will continue not give a single damn about single target card chores. I usually throw cards to 3 of 4 DPS players randomly to quickly gather my seals to get Divination ready. Like I have time to see what card I got or who to give to. My Malefics kill things faster than those single target cards could benefit a single person.

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I feel like this would've been prevented had they kept either Time Dilation and/or CO's Time extension. Also, if they're going to keep ignoring Divination such as now where it only gives DPS Increase, I'd like to see Divination's recast to go down to 90 seconds, if not, make the Duration for Divination into 30 seconds or make regular cards last 20 seconds minimum.

IMO, a tiny percentage bump in an already tiny buff, is not interesting, nor a great incentive to aim for 3 seals. (Well, IMO the whole seals game will be wonky anyway until they change Redraw to always pick a different seal card than currently drawn.) So assuming we're stuck with this boring card system ....

At the current loooooong cooldown, I'd say boost Divination to 25%, and allow seals to increase duration, e.g. base 15 sec, 2 different seals +5 sec, 3 different seals +10 sec. It would be nice if people got a little excited when they saw that buff pop up. I've never heard a single comment one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

IMO, a tiny percentage bump in an already tiny buff, is not interesting, nor a great incentive to aim for 3 seals. (Well, IMO the whole seals game will be wonky anyway until they change Redraw to always pick a different seal card than currently drawn.) So assuming we're stuck with this boring card system ....

At the current loooooong cooldown, I'd say boost Divination to 25%, and allow seals to increase duration, e.g. base 15 sec, 2 different seals +5 sec, 3 different seals +10 sec. It would be nice if people got a little excited when they saw that buff pop up. I've never heard a single comment one way or the other.

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...why is it that whenever people make suggestions for how to "fix" classes they always want to just completely break the games' balance in the process?

Personally I like the new system much more. It still is RNG but I feel I have more use for the cards that I draw - no matter what I draw - instead of just getting annoyed and dump them.

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Originally Posted by Nanami_Naniwa

Personally I like the new system much more. It still is RNG but I feel I have more use for the cards that I draw - no matter what I draw - instead of just getting annoyed and dump them.

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I mean it doesn't matter what you draw. They're all balance and that's the part where it's not fun. There is no making strategies. It's great that you personally enjoy it, but it's so bad that it has made a lot of AST mains actually drop the class.

At first I was upset with the changes, but after trying 5.0 AST it's actually not that bad. The buffs from the cards aren't that great, but with Sleeve Draw + Draw you can buff a full light party and then buff them even more with Divination. Before, it was one card every little while, but if done correctly you can be throwing them around left and right.

I hope they make some amount of buff to the potency of the card effect, but I really don't think it's as bad as people are making it. And this is coming from someone that mained AST from HW up until ShB.

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Originally Posted by Kuwago

I somewhat agree with you when it comes to having multiple ways to "manipulate" the cards with RR and MA but now using MA to a card feels nothing as it just increases potency. It doesn't even feel like an upgrade considering how it measly increases the potency by one 2%. I personally think that RR and MA could've been combined now that they replaced all cards with DPS buffs and MA brings back the old effects or something.

I'd rather have MA begone and RR stay because I can feel as though I can do something else with my cards than just increasing the DPS buff I give to my party.

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That is true. Honestly that's kind of just the rub with the cards as a whole. MA exists mostly to not mess up our seals between Divinations which feels shallow. Before when playing cards you could immediately feel the impact of, say, 25% DR, or a BLM with faster casts. Now these buffs I feel like you need to be looking at charts and graphs to appreciate which is just boring and not sexy. Being able to unlock the old card effects would be amazing.

The new card system feels like playing the lottery, but instead of having the option to lose or win big, you always win but you don't really make any money. There is no excitement, there is no drama, no character if you will. It has become a bare bones numbers gain aimed at end gamers who bitched about "MAH DPS" while the rest of us are left playing a hollow shell of a "RNG" mechanic that always has the same result with no added flavor or personality. They may as well just strip the entire card system and just give us single button buffs on a cd. At least then there wouldn't be so much busy work for such little payout.

I absolutely hate the new card system, it's very confusing, not fun and straight up boring. I loved what card was handled to you in stormblood and that you had to make a decision on what to do with that card for example , " Should I save this Ewer card or royal road it for AoE affect? Should I save this Bold card for the tank or Royal road it to increase the Potency of another card? Maybe I will just Minor Arcana and heal the tank if I get a Lady or the Crowns or damage an enemy if I get a Lord of the Crowns."

You had lots of options, you so many choices and the RNG was the fun part of old AST, you also had great tools to play with like time dilation to increase whatever buff you had, whether it's increase Regen time, a buff or both.

This new card system forces you to use on what job, lost all of unique abilities, and divination offer so little and it's so unrewarding; just get all three seals that really do nothing except a small DPS buff.

Please bring back the old AST