In the alternate timeline where Black Rose caused the 8th and final Calamity was Zodiark fully rejoined at this point or was that a process that would still take time?
Were the people killed during the Calamity the sacrifice needed to bring back the ancients Emet was talking about or would there still have been additional killings of people left on the Source?
Does this alternate timeline still exist in some sense? (I know we're getting into multi verse theory with this one)
*Spoilers* Questions about Shadowbringers
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09-12-2019, 08:04 AMSerLuke*Spoilers* Questions about Shadowbringers
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09-12-2019, 08:40 AMIlenya
I've wondered about whether 8 was the magic number needed for the rejoining. It seems implied, since that was all the elements, but never been stated that I recall. I believe it is, but at the same time the story given makes no mention one way or the other.
I assume the sacrifices made to bring them back would have been made similar to how we've seen Primal summons using crystals. Death isn't the factor here, releasing the aether is.
Too hard to say. Time travel does weird things to story ideas. -
09-12-2019, 10:25 AMIscah
The "eighth and final" claim was from Fanfest (IIRC) rather than within the story, and people simply assumed this meant Zodiark could/would be revived after that. Even then it could be interpreted in other ways, and Shadowbringers makes that interpretation seem very unlikely.
I suspect in the bad timeline the Source may be damaged beyond repair - if Black Rose is still slowly spreading and poisoning / halting aether, civilisation may never recover and life may not survive long-term. The Ascians may have broken their own system and another rejoining is not possible. The eighth Calamity was the last, because they won't be able to set up another.
As for whether the other timeline still exists...? It's somewhat of a philosophical question when we have no way of checking. But if we assume the timeline is stable now, G'raha Tia still exists, therefore the timeline that formed his past *should* still exist.
The way it makes the most sense to me, especially when trying to resolve it against Alexander's "stable time loop" story format, is that this isn't a large-scale "multiple timelines" story where all sorts of things spawn off alternate timelines where things did/didn't happen. Rather, a unique set of circumstances have allowed them to create this one split in the timeline by creating a paradox that can't resolve itself into a single neat timeline. The 'old' timeline has to remain in existence because things from it (G'raha, the tower, information about events that happened there) cannot be erased without also preventing the changes that erased them. So both timelines stay open, though there may not be much of a future for people in the other timeline where it seems the world is dying. they just know that there's also another world out there where - if their plan succeeds - things have gone better. -
09-13-2019, 08:01 AMShadygrove
Tales from the Shadows III seems to indicate the eighth umbral calamity timeline did exist.
Also that it successfully created an alternate timeline that would replace it. -
09-15-2019, 01:23 AMIscahAbsolutely - there's no question that it did exist. Despite how the information was initially relayed to us, it's not some vision of a possible future that might come to pass - it's the reality that G'raha Tia was living in prior to his trip through spacetime into the past of the First.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadygrove
The question is whether it still exists now that it has been replaced. -
09-15-2019, 02:51 AMEnkidoh
Oh I have no doubt that the 'Bad future'/original timeline where the 8th Calamity occurred and the Warrior of Light died still exists as a seperate alternate timeline now, as SE themselves have done this very thing back in FFXI in it's Wings of the Goddess and Abyssea expansions (in WotG the big revelation of that storyline was that the player's version of Vana'diel was actually the changed future that was never meant to exist - the prime or 'bad' timeline where the Shadowlord won the Crystal War and the nations of the races of Altana were destroyed was rewritten by the Goddess Altana and entities from that bad present were trying to 'put history back how it was originally was'; and Abyssea's world was an alternate present where the end of the Chains of Promathia expansion went badly, in that the player character died in the final battle and the dark god Promathia absorbed them and their companions into himself, turning himself into Shinryu and tearing Vana'diel to pieces, literally.
Both these scenarios were alternate timelines that exist concurrently with the player's own, despite having diverged wildly from them. In the same way, the 'bad future' of the post Eighth Calamity here in FFXIV still exists as an alternate world, thus the Crystal Tower that ended up in the First, and G'raha Tia with it, is now not 'our' one, it's from an alternate timeline that now exists in parallel to our one.
Of course that means that the crapsack 'World of Ruin' Source where the Crystal Exarch came from still exists and will forever be a dying world that could never be saved is pretty depressing to think about, but that's quantum physics for you. ;) -
09-15-2019, 03:08 AMIscahTo be exact, the bad future (or the part of it that G'raha came back from) will exist parallel to ours in 200 years' time - although the "bad alternate present" has apparently split away by this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
The joys of time-travel terminology.
Also I'd still regard G'raha Exarch as "our one" because he is the same person we met at the Crystal Tower - there was no split timeline at that point. He knows us, not alternate-universe-us. If we were talking about longer-divided timelines where the split was prior to our first meeting, that would be different.
Both the Exarch and the young G'raha Tia currently sleeping in the tower trace back to being "our G'raha". It's not a different person, it's the same person at two points in their life - although of course after the timeline 'split point' the Exarch is not on the same side of the split that he took "the first time around".
They're not any worse off than they already were, at least - and don't have the guilt of having sacrificed everyone on their world to recreate the timeline. (Not that they'd have the guilt once they ceased to exist, either...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
Maybe the Ironworks can figure out timeline-crossing tech in the next 200 years and then go help them out - after proto-Exarch-G'raha leaves of course, so it doesn't cause another contradiction and split.
(I'm sure this would potentially cause more time issues than it solves, but it could certainly work for that specific situation...) -
09-15-2019, 04:38 AMIlenyaThinking about this...I have no idea when the Crystal Tower arc could take place in the story if you have started Shadowbringers, let alone Alexander and Omega. The exarch actually specifically mentions that the WoL and he hadn't met yet in the timeline when talking to Urianger in the Echo scene, but by all accounts the Garleans should have been using the Black Rose a little after your run-in with Elidizenos. Maybe I have the timing off in my head, but it feels like there wouldn't have been much of a chance for you to go side-questing with the war going on and all. You probably only left the front lines in the current timeline because of the Exarch poking you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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09-15-2019, 07:52 AMAlleluiaIf you didn't do the raids yet and Black Rose was about to be launched at you, then you were on the path to an even worse 8th umbral calamity future cus no G'raha, CT, Alex, and Omega. So G'raha really, really did that version of the world a solid. It still works, though, since he's from another timeline anyway. In his timeline, you had done the raids. Its headache-inducing... but it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
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09-15-2019, 09:00 AMEdwinLi
The way I see it there are two possible outcomes being....
1) Building Block timeline - the previous timeline was actually the past and when G'raha Tia went back in time he stopped the old timeline from existing and the new timeline created a new Block to continue the timeline. Think of it like this....
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/ATAKRR/alp...row-ATAKRR.jpg
Block A to B is the old timeline and Block C to E is the new timeline. Everything is part of the Block line as one timeline thus it was always intended in the timeline for events of the Black Rose ( along with everything that lead to the time travel) to happen so in a future part of the timeline the events that started Shadowbringer will happen. Thus creating a new Block that still followed majority of the same events up until a specific moments where the new block will cause different events like overriding Saved Data using a New Game+ Data that still count your play time since you began a New game even though New Game+ reset your progress with carried over stuff.
2) Time Remnent timeline - The new timeline is created and completely replaced the old timeline but Old G'raha Tia exists because his influence in the New Timeline is far too vital that it cannot erase him without erasing the New Timeline as well thus he remains in the New Timeline as a Remnent of the Old Timeline due to being a major influence in creating the new timeline. -
09-15-2019, 09:48 AMIlenyaYeah, it kind of is. Either that, or we had more of a break than it seemed. It was enough for Cid and group to get to Doma to poke at the shield wall again, so maybe we had time to deal with everything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleluia
...Except Cid was involved with all three of the Raids required for this to work out. -
09-15-2019, 12:43 PMIscahIt definitely doesn't make sense if you stop to think about it, but they're not really trying to make it work - just fill in gaps that shouldn't be there. There is no real version of the story where you met the Exarch before you first met G'raha Tia. The CT storyline happened in post-ARR, regardless of when you did it, and anything else is just the story tying itself in knots so it doesn't have to say the player did something they haven't personally done yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
This is the slightly odd (but consistent) way that the game handles optional storylines, especially if ongoing characters are involved.
The "canon version" is that those events happened at the point in the story indicated by the quest level and possibly the patch where the quest was introduced. In this case, the Lv50 CT quests take place post-ARR, with Nero fresh from his defeat at the Praetorium and 'out of a job', and I believe the recent destruction of the Isle of Val (as introduced in post-ARR MSQ) was also referenced. Cid is wearing his first outfit that he hasn't worn since early Heavensward.
However, if you skip these optional-but-canon quests, the game will not pretend that you have done them (though you should have). Any future references to their events will have variable dialogue, or be written around in other ways - for example, when Nero re-enters the MSQ storyline in post-Heavensward to propose using Omega, players may have previously interacted with him at the Crystal Tower, or this may be the first time they've seen him since the Praetorium. The story dodges the issue of whether we've met him or not because he doesn't speak to us directly, but introduces himself to the other characters who definitely don't know him. Cid has a variable remark either about not trusting him despite the events at the Crystal Tower (if you did it) or a more generic one about Nero having worked for Gaius (if you didn't do CT - in which case Cid hasn't talked to Nero since the Praetorium either).
Another example I like because it's tangled up in a lot of things is the Binding Coil. MSQ characters are involved, and ignoring it makes the timeline messy.
If you did it at the intended time in post-ARR, it ties in with things going on at that time. You meet Alisaie for the first time since the early events of the game, and Alphinaud is busy setting up the Crystal Braves. At the end of the story, Alisaie departs on a journey (referenced in her Tale from the Dragonsong War) and rejoins you at the end of it in post-Heavensward.
If you skipped it or only partially completed it at the time, when she joins you post-Heavensward in the quest Two Sides of a Coin there are multiple versions of dialogue from both Alphinaud and Alisaie referencing those events - but only as much of it as you have personally completed. If you didn't start the Coil quests at all, she says she hasn't met you since the early game.
And then if you eventually return to play the rest of Coil? It still happens at Lv50, with the characters being their ARR selves regardless of what their 'current self' is up to. If it's still undone after 4.4, Urianger is still standing around at the Waking Sands and participating in the quests despite actually being in a coma at the Rising Stones, because this is an earlier version of him from before that happened. And at the end of it, Alisaie is off on a journey she already got back from.
As I said, it gets messy.
TL;DR: optional events are treated as "not happened yet" until you do them, at which point they had always happened at the designated time in the story where they were written to take place - not at the time when you personally played the quest.
Shadowbringers was written with the assumption that CT happened at its proper time, but is forced to allow for the fact that some players haven't done it - but those variations seem to be added as an afterthought, and aren't supposed to be "equally canon" with the proper sequence of events. -
09-15-2019, 12:58 PMEdwinLiWhich is why I still think the timeline aspect is the Block Timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
In the previous Block of the timeline, it is most likely that CT happened in the intended timeline of 2.X but this new Block created due to the time travel to continue the Timeline with different events is designed to have CT event happen based on when the player choose as part of a ripple effect.
It is like water in a river thus even if a person change the flow of the river it is still the same river. Water may not flow the same way but it is still the same water that flows through the river.
Of course now we can only ask where will this river go to with this change because a part of me still suspect the Calamity has not been avoided but just created events that may lead to something of equal or far worse *cough* a Super God Powered Zenos that consumed both Hydaelyn and Zodiark that goes full Kefka on the World just for that Ultimate battle against WoL *cough* -
09-15-2019, 01:17 PMIscahNo, it doesn't change. We keep having this conversation. That's not how the game handles optional quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
CT happened in post-ARR. Nothing changes that.
Dialogue in the CT quests, particularly involving Nero, indicates you are in post-ARR regardless of when you do it.
Completing the CT after Shadowbringers then rewatching the cutscene where G'raha previously claimed you hadn't met yet has altered that line. The events of CT have been "slotted in" to the overall story at their appropriate time and have now happened prior to your trip to the First, even if you played them afterwards.
The events of CT are not affected by the changes to the timeline initiated in post-Stormblood because they took place before the timeline split and have not been altered. -
09-15-2019, 02:04 PMEdwinLiI am speaking of how the MSQ handle the view of things, Not how CT handle your progress in MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
CT will always be considered in 2.X era but MSQ dialogue is based on progress in the CT thus the MSQ view of the New Timeline is hard lock on how far has been progressed in CT being...
1) New done CT = Not met yet.
2) In Progress CT = He will say he is adventuring with WoL currently.
3) Complete CT = He will say they met already
This changes what Block Timeline the WoL is in being that is #1 is the case then the timeline is a New Timeline that never had CT event happens or have not happened yet, #2 case is a timeline when CT story was only half way done thus G'raha Tia has not yet sealed himself in the Tower but in the future he will eventually, and Case #3 is the new timeline where things progressed as intended and CT happened in 2.X.
If a player start with Case #1 and finish 5.0 then finish CT after, then they are no longer in Case #1 timeline but in Case #3 new timeline where CT did happen in 2.X era and Case #1 becomes a Previous Timeline that happened before something happened before Exarch G'raha Tia Block Timeline.
In a Block Timeline, all possible outcomes happened in one possible Block timeline that previously existed until that Block stopped and a new Block continues where it left of as a New Timeline with events changing in certain areas. In this case Case #1, #2, and #3 still happens but if it is the current Block Timeline or a Previous Block Timeline that happened before is up to the player's view of things.
It is like a cycle that repeat itself in slightly different ways until one Block allow the Cycle/river to reach the intended destination being the current events in MSQ (with the Player's choices taken into consideration as well). -
09-15-2019, 02:29 PMIscahI'm also talking about how MSQ handles it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
Once you have completed CT, there is no ambiguity about when it happened. It happened prior to Shadowbringers, and your character knows G'raha Tia prior to meeting the Exarch.
Your progress in the Crystal Tower storyline permanently alters the details of the MSQ that follows it. But your progress in the MSQ has no effect on the Crystal Tower.
The CT story is never intended to take place at any time other than post-ARR. It cannot. Even if G'raha Tia was a one-shot character who never came back, and all this time business never happened, the CT story is still set in a designated point in the MSQ because it forms part of Cid and Nero's story. It happens prior to their interactions in post-Heavensward and the Omega storyline, even though it's possible to play those first and then do CT afterwards. That just means you saw their interactions out of order - not that you changed the order in which those interactions happened.
The important thing is, the game will not acknowledge those earlier events happening unless the player has seen them. It doesn't change the sequence of events, but it does affect whether people will say at the time if those events happened or not.
All quests are supposed to have happened at the time they became available to you, and the story doesn't actually support "multiple sequences". Early events affect later events, but completing later events first does not have any effect on the early events or when they happened. -
09-15-2019, 02:47 PMEdwinLiI know the story does not support Multiple Sequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
I am talking about how the Block Timeline treats these aspect of "Progress" with them being just a new timelines that have replaced the old Block timeline. It is basically everything you said but in a Block timeline perspective of things.
For example, in One Block timeline the WoL would have done CT in 2.X and Alex in 3.X but Omega in a different timeframe. The game system will always treat Omega in 4.X era but in this Block Timeline perspective of events Omega happened in a later time beyond 4.X. However, by completing Omega, you have basically stopped the Old Block Timeline where Omega happened later and replaced it with a New Block Timeline where Omega happened in 4.X as intended thus now you are in a New Timeline where CT happened in 2.X, Alex happened in 3.X, and Omega in 4.X.
Think of Block timelines as all possible events mixed up in each Different Block that eventually stops at certain points to be replaced with a New Block that has a certain difference in event's placements in time while remaining mostly the same so it can continue building until it reach the intended destination. -
09-15-2019, 03:15 PMIscahThat's adding complexity and multiple timelines that have not been hinted and do not need to be there. I can't see the point in inventing other timelines where things happen in different orders and then immediately "throwing them out" so we're left with the one timeline that we have already.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
The Alexander quests imply that we are on a single timeline, and the instability caused by time travel in that story had to be resolved to keep history on the right course.
Doing CT after Shadowbringers doesn't work. It can't happen then. We're either too busy dying in the Eighth Calamity to go exploring Allagan ruins on our day off from saving the world, or we've escaped the timeline that leads to the dark future - in which case it's "too late" to set up the events of CT that need to happen so G'raha is in the tower in that timeline by the time the Eighth Calamity happens, so he can be let out of it afterwards.
Also, setting CT after Shadowbringers would mean that we have not directly met the G'raha who becomes the Exarch. He met the other version of us in the other timeline after the split, but not "us". From a storytelling perspective, that shouldn't happen.
And as I said before, it affects other characters' continuity. You can't put the Omega story before Crystal Tower for Cid and Nero. You can't have Binding Coil take place after Alisaie joins the Scions in post-Heavenward. You can't interact with Estinien the pre-Heavensward Azure Dragoon any time after starting Heavensward, but the Lv30-50 DRG quest have him there anyway. These events are fixed in time, and you're just stepping back into that part of the story to play them. -
09-15-2019, 03:32 PMEdwinLiyou are still not understanding how Block Timeline works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
As I said YES these things will always be set in that Time frame they are made.
For example, in One Block timeline WoL did not do DRG quest but in 2nd Block Timeline the WoL did do the DRG quest.
Now it is a matter which Block Timeline happened First and which one is the WoL currently in.
If Block 1 is the old timeline that stopped and got replaced by Block 2 Timeline then current events is that Block 2 is the Timeline that WoL is in and Block 1 is the old timeline that no longer continues within this Single timeline path.
Block 1 and Block 2 are both part of a Single Timeline but Block 1 was the first Part of the Timeline and ended at a certain point. Block 2 will then begin after Block 1 ended with History being mostly the same until a certain point alters small parts but still continues to the same intended destination that Block 1 intended to reach but could not since it had to be stopped at a certain point.
It is for this reason why the MSQ will always happen as intended no matter the dialogue choices made and no matter how many of the extra content players complete or did not complete because the Variation in the MSQ are all just different Block Timelines within this single Timeline path. It is only a matter of which Block is the WoL in and which are the past Block timelines that have stopped to create this new Block timeline.
but I will stop trying to explain how Block Timeline works now since you do not understand my explanation. -
09-15-2019, 04:16 PMIscahIt just seems like an incredibly convoluted explanation to come to the same final point. There is one intended timeline with all quests completed, and we reach that timeline by completing all the quests. Things will be askew if we leave earlier quests undone.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
The difference is that you seem to be claiming that all versions of the story exist equally, rather than one intended canon storyline and some quirks that only exist because this is an interactive story and they have to cover all their bases when players leave quests undone.
It's more like a jigsaw puzzle. You can leave some pieces out, and a part of the picture is missing. But if you add those pieces in later there's only one place where they can fit. -
09-15-2019, 07:58 PMIscah
I think the issue is that you're trying to define the variable text from quest completion as an in-universe manipulation of time, where I don't see any reason to view it as anything more than an out-of-universe gameplay contrivance. It allows for an established sequence of events and character growth without forcing the players to complete every quest along the way, and without taking the route of telling the player "remember when X happened" if they haven't done X.
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09-15-2019, 09:05 PMIlenya
I'm just imagining this moment of calling up the Garleans and going "Hey, uh, there's this weird tower thing we need to look inside, can you hold off for a bit?" "Hey, there's this...Massive Primal I've been ignoring, can I go take care of it?"
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09-16-2019, 12:21 AMEdwinLiBecause the main post is asking about TIMELINE and which one is the MSQ possibly using to explain if the Old timeline still exists or not either as a separate timeline, part of a intended event in a single timeline, or erased from existance to be replaced with this new timeline. Thus I answered the post within how Timeline works with the MSQ by taking in all possible mixing of events both Main and Optional as a Multiple Timeline normally does by taking into account all variations of events and difference in WoL appearance are in fact different Timelines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
Timeline topic in storyline is a very convoluted subject because it will include all possible outcomes and constant narrowing down on which possible Timeline Theory they maybe using.
As I said before, in story perspective we are either in a Block Timeline or a Time Remnant Timeline. -
09-16-2019, 01:10 AMIscahRead it again. It's not asking "which timeline we're in". It's asking whether the timeline we're not in still exists - and that's a question that can be answered with the assumption we are in a relatively simple "Y-shaped" timeline with one single sequence of events up until the events of Shadowbringers cause it to split into two paths.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
That's is how the flow of time has been described to us in the game up to this point. One timeline with a single "crossroads" created to change the path of history away from the dark future.
Any other variable events are altered by external gameplay factors, not portrayed in-game as doing something that changes the past and affects the present. Our character is not time-traveling, just filling in gaps that should have been completed earlier - and any remarks about us not having met people yet are "temporary measures" until we've done the quests as intended.
There's no version of the story where doing CT post-Shadowbringers actually makes sense - but it's a good enough excuse to cover the gap until the player completes that story and puts it in the proper earlier position. And it's not just a matter of it being immediately replaced by the "happened in 2.X" version of events, because if the Exarch saying we haven't met his past self is a valid timeline, then CT has to have happened post-timeline-split in 5.0 for him - and that doesn't make sense, therefore that timeline shouldn't be possible, therefore it shouldn't be considered equally canon. It's just a temporary fill-in for the proper version of events.
And generally speaking, for the sake of discussing the story, my understanding is that we treat the single "all quests complete" version of the story as canon and ignore the variations. You can look at the variations and maybe learn something interesting from them, but they're not supposed to happen that way. -
09-16-2019, 01:19 AMIscahNow I'm picturing the Scions trying to stall for time while we go to investigate the tower... and have to deal with bratty young G'raha sending us on his merry chase for aethersand, blissfully unaware of how desperate our situation is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
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09-16-2019, 02:24 AMIlenyaI suppose, thinking about it, CT is the only one that WoL is required to have done to fit OMG's story. There could have been other Adventurers who happened to get involved with Alexander/Omega, since both are...Basically required for the story to make sense, but CT's just always going to be a catching point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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09-16-2019, 02:57 AMIscahTechnically yes, for now at least - although from memory I think G'raha tells Urianger that the concepts of time travel were developed out of certain events that happened during the WoL's adventures, implying that we historically did them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
But again, canonically we're supposed to have done the quests as they become available to us, and the time travel plot has opted to treat them as done rather than try to convolutedly follow the maybe-or-maybe-not approach of the "present day" MSQ.
Also, Omega is an "only the WoL could do this" due to Midgardsormr's involvement, and Dayan's expository talk at the wrap-up of the Alexander story seems to rely on our plot significance. -
09-16-2019, 04:44 AMIlenyaJust as a note, I'm not being entirely serious with my train of thoughts, just trying to figure out how it could possibly have happened. Just lots of random train of thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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09-16-2019, 01:13 PMMrThinkerYour memory is absolutely 100% correct here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
EDIT: Relevant Quotation from "The Unbroken Thread" - cutscene 1
This part of the cutscene remains unchanged regardless of quest progression, so yes it assumes that the WoL (and not some other adventurers) will eventually, if they haven't already, beat Alexander, Omega, and the Cloud of Darkness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Exarch
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09-16-2019, 11:41 PMLineageRazor
Having read all this back-and-forth, I gotta say I'm WAY more on-board with Iscah's interpretation than Edwin's Block thingy.
To me, it's simple: the moment your character steps into the first quest of Heavensward, she has canonically done EVERYTHING THAT IT'S POSSIBLE TO DO in ARR. CT? Done. Coil? Done. Leveled every job? Done. Crafted/gathered all the things? Done. Relicked all the weapons? Done.
Note: the CHARACTER has done all these things, even if the player has not. For things the PLAYER has not yet done, the game is coy, and works the dialog to avoid giving too much away, just in case the player wants to go back and do them later. But it's still the case that these things are part of the character's history. They are not added in retroactively as the player does them - they are already done. The player doing them after the fact is, at best, a flashback, or maybe an Echo vision.
Same goes for the first step into Stormblood. Void Ark? Done. Alexander. Done. Etc. First step into Shadowbringers? You get the idea. -
09-17-2019, 01:49 PMIscahThanks for the vote, and I agree with you overall, but on this particular point - the game does specifically say you-the-character haven't done things if you-the-player skipped them. I see it more that you're supposed to have done everything in ARR by the time you leave ARR, but if you haven't the game will do its best to accommodate that and provide an alternate narrative - but it's not how the story is supposed to go, so the alternatives are only temporary and if it causes weird time anomalies or doesn't line up with the overall plot, that's 'your fault' for not doing things in chronological order.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
As discussed earlier, if a player didn't do Crystal Tower before Shadowbringers, G'raha will tell Urianger that the WoL hasn't met his past self yet (even though CT should/must have happened at this point).
And the fluctuating state of our progress in the Binding Coil, which by the canon "everything finished" interpretation should be all wrapped up at Lv50 / post-ARR, but instead we get these variable remarks from Alphinaud and Alisaie in post-Heavensward indicating we're still only partway through it.
Alphinaud's possible remarks depending on Binding Coil progress:
Quote:
Would I be right in assuming that you have not spoken with my sister since...one of the memorial services, was it?
By the Twelve, it seems a lifetime ago. I should like to think we have both grown since then...
Quote:
It has been many moons since last we worked together...though I believe the same cannot be said of the two of you.
Aye, I confess, I was aware of your subterranean expedition─of your search for the truth of the Calamity.
I considered involving myself with her venture for a time, but as you know all too well, circumstances conspired to keep us apart. I can only assume she carried on in our absence...
Quote:
It was good of you to accompany my sister on her forays into the coils. The knowledge that you were with her did much to put my mind at rest.
Though I know not what she found at the end of her search, Deks and Sinis did inform me that she had taken to the road on her own, apparently on a journey of self-discovery...
And what came of that I can only speculate. I am glad our paths crossed, regardless.
And Alisaie's:Quote:
...To think that the three of us plumbed the depths of the coils and confronted Bahamut himself. Had I not been there, I would struggle to believe it.
Shortly after we parted ways, I heard that she had taken to the road on her own, apparently on a journey of self-discovery. Precisely where to I never learned, though I suspect that was by design.
Quote:
It is an honor, Forename. I realize we are barely acquainted, but having heard so much about you, it hardly feels that way.
Quote:
I should thank you again for your assistance with my expeditions, Forename. Though we left matters somewhat unfinished, I am nevertheless prepared to focus on the task at hand and aid you to the fullest extent of my ability.
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As you helped me to brave the coils, so too will I help you to defeat the Warriors of Darkness.*
* the text on Garland Tools has these all in one run-on piece of script and I'm not sure if this line goes with the part before or after it, or if it is separate.Quote:
To be honest, Forename, I wasn't planning on seeking you out just yet. When I set forth on my journey, I did so with grand ambitions. As you may recall, I promised I would not disappoint you...
I pray you will forgive me if I do.
The final version is how it's supposed to play out once you've got all the pieces in place, where Alisaie tells you at the end of the Coil storyline that she's departing on her journey - but if you haven't got to that scene, their alternate dialogue fills in the blanks and creates a "temporary version" of how she ended up going on that journey, which works on its own but directly contradicts the "real version" of how the expedition went.
But trying to treat these temporary alternate versions as canon is just too messy - especially as it opens extra cans of worms like trying to explain how Urianger is still at the Waking Sands when he is actually currently in Mor Dhona / the First and how Cid could be in three places at once if you leave CT/Alexander/Omega all half-finished. That's clearly not happening in-game (unless they want to send us for a real mind-screw later on). Just handwave it as game mechanics and treat the complete version as canon - it's how the lorebook handles it. -
09-19-2019, 02:45 AMIlenya
Glancing at this topic, I've realized the whole silliness with CT and the like can be solved with a simple statement.
The WoL from the Eighth Calamity timeline isn't a version of our character we've played. We've never played in the Eighth Calamity Timeline because time never went that way for us. It could even wrap around to the point where the change between Calamity and current timeline changes at the exact same point; the start of ARR. The Eighth Calamity Timeline as been running alongside us all the way until...Probably the first time the Exarch makes contact with us, since that would be the first in story point where the timelines would have diverged. Only difference being, Current Timeline WoL hasn't necessarily done everything involved, because Current Timeline us doesn't need to for the timeline to work.
Well, work as much as any time travel paradox timeline would, at any rate. It's a random theory, but eh, it'd answer a few things.