Has PVP Gone to the Dogs?!?!?

Does anyone notice a change in how pvp is being played this year? I've been noticing how the kill factor has taken precedence more than overall strategy. I mean I've seen it a bit in the past, but more so lately. Players running amuck for the thrill of the kill, disregarding call outs and just doing their own thing.

I think what makes it so bad now than in the past, is the influx of new players coming to ffxiv. Especially WoW refugees and other mmo's. There is more to ffxiv pvp, than just the "kill or be killed" mentality. Sometimes it killing less and waiting patiently which I find players are refusing to do lately. All of it makes me wonder what has happened to pvp.

I know that each Frontline map is played differently and uses different strategies, but I find a lot of players only care about their way of playing lately and to heck with whether it cost their team the win. My theory for this is that it's based on what game they came from in the past and brought with them this whole other mentality, which doesn't work more so than not.

Has PVP Gone to the Dogs?!?!

just depends on how bloodthirsty ppl are in any given match? I've seen one where a team in last place in points came from behind to win the match because the other two were too focused on trading kills on one another.

Yeah this isn't anything new, especially in objective based modes.
I'm not sure if you specifically mean The Feast, Frontlines, or Rival Wings, but you'll find people that outright ignore the objective in any mode, any time.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

just depends on how bloodthirsty ppl are in any given match? I've seen one where a team in last place in points came from behind to win the match because the other two were too focused on trading kills on one another.

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I had this exact thing happen on my team earlier today, thus granting us the win.

It's nothing new in itself. A lot of people think pvp = kill count and engage in solo 1v1. I used to see it all the time.

I haven't touched ShB pvp yet. But in general, I just view pvp as a dice roll, because half of them squad is going to do their own thing instead of working together, and there's usually one well-coordinated team that will take advantage of that.

I've been seeing more often parties trying to completely avoid combat and only focus on objectives, something that almost always results in a loss.

Teams can lose because of groups that ignore objectives and run around unorganized and ignorant, tunnel-visioning on trying to kill things or because of over-reliance on objectives and intentionally avoiding combat, who knew?

Likewise, both methods can still win, but like everything else that depends largely on how the other two teams are playing and react to yours.

In the defense of objectives taking a backseat to farming kills (if done properly), this "strategy" is effective in building-up your team to have multiple Battle Highs and Fevers so that whatever team you encounter, they progressively lose the ability to put up a fight against yours and die noticeably quicker, meaning easy points from kills (and them losing points). Passively watching two opposing teams fight for the free objectives they are ignoring is viable so long as one of them isn't dominating and building-up their team with Battle Highs and Fevers like previously mentioned, because eventually your team will likely either be forced into a confrontation with them and crumble versus their DPS bursting down targets faster than they can be healed or will start to see their team keep up with/overtake your points from objectives purely off kills alone. If both teams are at an equal standstill, you literally can win by doing nothing to them.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

Does anyone notice a change in how pvp is being played this year? I've been noticing how the kill factor has taken precedence more than overall strategy. I mean I've seen it a bit in the past, but more so lately. Players running amuck for the thrill of the kill, disregarding call outs and just doing their own thing.

I think what makes it so bad now than in the past, is the influx of new players coming to ffxiv. Especially WoW refugees and other mmo's. There is more to ffxiv pvp, than just the "kill or be killed" mentality. Sometimes it killing less and waiting patiently which I find players are refusing to do lately. All of it makes me wonder what has happened to pvp.

I know that each Frontline map is played differently and uses different strategies, but I find a lot of players only care about their way of playing lately and to heck with whether it cost their team the win. My theory for this is that it's based on what game they came from in the past and brought with them this whole other mentality, which doesn't work more so than not.

Has PVP Gone to the Dogs?!?!

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Just happened to me. Tank has 200 medals, we are winning with 40 seconds left. I have full mp as healer. Tank charges straight into enemy HQ despite me saying to fallback and retreat. Of course he runs out of range of cures and rescue and we lose.

Other things that tick me off, annoying a far out of range of objectives 3rd place team (as 2nd place team because eventually they say screw it and turn on you instead of attacking 1st and giving you a chance). Taking the "middle" nodes first (obvious target for a pincer attack by both teams that just happens automatically due to travel distance).

In PvPvP, you win by keeping things competitive as much as possible then bursting down the last bit.

This is nothing new mate, lol.

I started playing PvP (usually 72p) informally in ARR. It was bad then - no strategy, no communication, and everyone splitting up, running around randomly, ignoring objectives, getting into pointless fights, and dying.

Heavensward and Stormblood were about the same, and Shadowbringers is no different as far as I can tell.

I wish there were some system to help teams work together, to help people learn to play PvP, and to help people who want to practice and get better at it.

I like the idea of PvP, but it is hardly ever fun in any way.

Players will harken unto the strong. In this age of dog eat dog, one most be a Diamond Dog. Kept you waiting huh?

An increase in PvP bots may also be the reason for this change in behavior as people are likely desperate to get their Garo stuff done and from what I've heard they generally do not go after objectives and instead focus entirely on kills (Which they can be frighteningly efficient at if there are multiple DPS bots on the same team as they'll unfailingly go after the same target as one another should they be in close proximity).

Nothing wrong playing for kills if you got a solid team that can keep switching between enemy factions wiping them in waves.
The biggest problem currently is that there's too many uh... (not gonna use the word i want cause ill get banned again) "interesting" players trying to leech Garo wins on both Feast and FL.

When someone see a team that's like 70% clueless Garo leechers why should one tryhard to win?
Instead one can relax and enjoy one self or just train his rotations and stuff or even see how many kills he can get in a single match.

If anything i hope we never see a PvP event like Garo again.
If they want to reward people who win they can just hand out rewards to those who won X matches in last X months/weeks.

My group of friends who do PvP has always, focused on getting kills more than doing objectives, even since HW. Simply because its often more fun. It can help out the team though, as we get a lot of battle highs, and hunt down enemy battle highs.
Don't get me wrong, we still do objectives, and stay with the group, but we'll be the ones killing enemies who are trying to get to those objectives.

I find the opposite. Too much "DON'T FIGHT GO FOR OBJECTIVES ONLY" meanwhile the other teams are farming highs.

well considering a wolf and many wolf related titles are in feast id say pvp gone to the dogs a very long time ago

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

I find the opposite. Too much "DON'T FIGHT GO FOR OBJECTIVES ONLY" meanwhile the other teams are farming highs.

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Yes, and then we all " Pikachu shocked face. " when they come wreck us with their adrenaline spam.

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Originally Posted by Strywin

Yes, and then we all " Pikachu shocked face. " when they come wreck us with their adrenaline spam.

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Sounds about XIV community

This happens often tbh, usually just the one or two people who don’t listen at all and charge off on their own thinking they can win the game solo, just group up with like minded people to avoid that shit lol.

I'm prone to seeing extremely flighty groups who will abruptly cease fighting and fail to finish off an enemy group if an objective spawns despite having an obvious number advantage, which leads to the stragglers (Usually the melee) getting picked off.

Ending a minor conflict should take precedence over an objective if you already have most of your team headed for it but people regularly just drop everything.

Shucks, Player versus Player combat these days... has just got way too much PvPing...

That said, I think it's mostly luck (or unluck) of the draw. Most Shatter matches are still as exclusively ice-obsessed as ever, for instance.

I like how you all say its luck based and not blame the fact of the community in general lacking common sense or the ability to read their chat and tooltips

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Originally Posted by Crit

I like how you all say its luck based and not blame the fact of the community in general lacking common sense or the ability to read their chat and tooltips

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I think you've missed all my posts in the PvP section lately

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Shucks, Player versus Player combat these days... has just got way too much PvPing...

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PvPing and PKing are different things. One is a form of the other but they are not the same even though many conflate the two. Players can be upset that a PvP mode has too much or not enough PK focus.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

PvPing and PKing are different things. One is a form of the other but they are not the same even though many conflate the two. Players can be upset that a PvP mode has too much or not enough PK focus.

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I realize. It's just seemed to have been a running theme ever since the second or third FL map that XIV PvP design has been terribly imbalanced towards the "not enough" side by comparison to most MMOs' PvP (and most of them more popular, at least by % playbase participation), so it swinging back towards the norm due to just how the community decides to play the map modes seemed -- if more than coincidence in this case -- likely a good evolution, or at least experiment, for the experience.

I truly hate what they did to wars. War rage generation is so weird in that you almost never use the 3 hit combo. Making stormspath heal might as well not even exist.

Only healing is through nascent flash and it requires a party member. No other tank had to deal with this bs i think. Maybe dark? Pld and gnb have self heals they can do at anytime.

Its frustrating to be damaged and having to run awsy and sit for minutes to get out of combat to recover because of ZERO self heals AS A TANK.

No inner beast, no equilibrium, no thrill, nada, nothing, just sit on my potato behind or hope a healer is around to heal me.

I enjoyed the new war burst at first, but now, i don't think I've ever hated how wars play in pvp as much as I do now.

So thats all i do now, unga bunga burst/dps, because thats all i can do. To address op, i think my experience is shared by many. Hence why you feel pvp is like it is now.

PvP has gone "to the dogs" since the Stormblood changes.

Frontlines needs fixed if your alliance is missing 6 people and other ones is full. It shouldn't start till its full or they need give the team that's not full a bonus in tomes or wolf marks. Doesn't seem fair when your team has 18 and others have 24 each goes though whole match missing the 6 how you even have a chance at winning.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Frontlines needs fixed if your alliance is missing 6 people and other ones is full. It shouldn't start till its full or they need give the team that's not full a bonus in tomes or wolf marks. Doesn't seem fair when your team has 18 and others have 24 each goes though whole match missing the 6 how you even have a chance at winning.

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I think just dynamically adjusting how quickly a team gains LB/battle high based on how many members it has could help in that regard.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Frontlines needs fixed if your alliance is missing 6 people and other ones is full. It shouldn't start till its full or they need give the team that's not full a bonus in tomes or wolf marks. Doesn't seem fair when your team has 18 and others have 24 each goes though whole match missing the 6 how you even have a chance at winning.

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It mostly occurs when a premade group failed to accept the duty. The duty will still start with missing 8 members. Because of the current event that only rewards moogle tomestones when the duty is done without "in progress", you only get rarely late joiners.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think just dynamically adjusting how quickly a team gains LB/battle high based on how many members it has could help in that regard.

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So if I kick bad people, my chance to win is higher? Is that what you want?
If more people join again, I just randomly lose my battle high again? It would be unreliable, shitty to balance... The obvious solution is to reward moogle tomestones also for "in progress" duties. (And also include other 24 raids and other lvl 60 and 70 dungeons, but apparently the feedback from the last event wasnt enough lmao)

I have found it to be variable, some groups better coordinated, some less so. Though yesterday was the first time in a long time since I've done PvP, I found Adders were just as you described and consistently lost on Adders because of it. But Maelstrom were the most coordinated.

But I've generally found as long as there's somebody in alliance chat giving orders or direction to manage the team most in most matches will follow them. Even if the person yelling isn't the best PvPer in the world, the direction helps. So I figure if in a situation of free for all, it's an option to increase the chances of people not doing that. Not a guaranteed win, but boosts chances. I used to find the same principle in WoW, so hopefully out refugee friends still get on boardm

The issue is SE only really tries to encourage people to queue into PvP, they make very little effort (actually none, IMHO) to get people to actually play PvP.

Just look at the latest Treasure Trove event. Win or lose, you get 5 tomestones from it. Where is the incentive to actually play to win and improve? That should be at the center of any PvP mode in any game, but it just isn't in XIV. Ranked Feast is the only thing that comes remotely close, but even that suffers from such low attendance (data center split only made that worse) that people can just brute force their way into the top 100 without much effort, top 10 and rank 1 rewards are so abysmal that there is essentially no point aiming for that so there is really no competitive edge. Even where wins are required in this games PvP (like the Garo event), people can just roll the dice multiple times and eventually get carried... That's how almost all the events and achievements have played out, to my knowledge, and as such that's all the majority of players are encouraged to do. When the majority are doing the bare minimum to participate, of course the game modes aren't going to be fun.

SE can rework PvP combat as much as they like, it isn't really the issue. The issue is with the reward structure of PvP. It rewards grinding rather than putting any effort in. That's the issue they need to address IMO. Doesn't matter how many buttons you add, how engaging you make the combat, when 90% of the playerbase is just rolling their face on their keyboard for easy rewards, the mode will suck.

Rework the results at the end of matches to have a top 3 for each category (add more categories where needed, like Rival Wings should have a mecha section for mecha kills, kills as mecha, etc.), tie more rewards to that. Done. You get achievements based off being in that top 3, suddenly there is incentive to get more kills, do more damage, take more damage, heal more HP, etc. You get more tomestones/exp/wolf marks/etc. based off that, same thing. Tie PvP specific events to that. It encourages playing and engaging with PvP mechanics, rather than just queuing up and flipping a coin on whether you win or not.