Samurai - Kaiten Issue

Hello everyone,

Just curious on what people feel about this Kaiten change? The problem i am coming across is that the change to the recast going down to 1 second, doesn't help anyone but hinder people, in the case of accidental button presses.

I have seen other posts before 5.08 about this and seen multiple people say bring it down to 1 second, but make it so you can't press it again if the Kaiten buff is up. But obviously that change didn't happen.

Instead a unmentioned nerf with Tsubame-gaeshi happened as well, which now is delayed by the recast time of weapon skills to activate it, on top of not being able to to use weapon skills during its recast timer after you use it... which means if you are literally standing there for 4 to 5 seconds doing nothing if you have no kenki.

Which comes back to the accidental casting of extra Kaitens.....

The flow... is really bad when getting to all iaijutsus now because of these nerfs, they don't feel rewarding at all because the flow just hurts... Honestly i would rather go back to 5.0 with Tsubame-gaeshi's cast time because the flow felt better and Kaiten fit in better with a 5 second Recast timer.


My suggestions would be:

- (this must happen) Remove the weapon skill timer from Tsubame-gaeshi completely so that you can Iaijutsu > Tsubame-gaeshi > Hakaze within a span of 2.5 seconds max based on the OGC to make the flow feel good.

A. Fix Kaiten by reverting it back to its 5 second recast timer.
B. Fix Kaiten by adding in a no recast if the buff is active.
C. Remove Kaiten from the game entirely. Increase Iaijutsu damage by 50%, make Iaijutsu cost 20 kenki to use. (Now hear me out on this.)

The reasoning for C is.. while Kaiten can be used for all "Weapon Skills" (not Tsubame-gaeshi as it is an ability not a weapon skill.) the problem is... you won't... there isn't enough gain in all the weapon skills to justify its cost EXCEPT for Iaijutsu... so basically the ability is tied directly to Iaijutsu, there is no reason or in another sense, no other purpose for this ability... it is basically a empty button press if you are not using it with Iaijutsu. So why not just combine Kaiten with Iaijutsu to make the flow better?

What do others think about this? My play style took a huge hit cause of the Kaiten and Tsubame-gaeshi nerfs and i really just wanted to throw this post out there to see what others have been experiencing.

Thank you for your time.

I'm not really bothered by the change itself but I do agree that it's a pointless skill. The only reasons it exists are to add an extra key press and give opportunities for mistakes.

Using it for anything but Iaijutsu is a mistake. Using Iaijutsu without it is a mistake. Obviously, pressing it twice is a mistake.

It gives a tiny bit of pointless complexity, and I guess that's the idea, but it doesn't really feel good or flow well. I'd be happy to see your "C" suggestion come about and just do away with it entirely.

I agree with merging Iaijutsu and Kaiten, SAM has already too many buttons.


This is how my hotbar feels when I play SAM:


https://image1.masterfile.com/getIma...Masterfile.jpg

I would rather they remove Shoha then Kaiten, and make Guren deal Senei-level damage on 1 target and it's normal damage if it hit's 2+, but I have no idea if they could code that to work. Having said that, yes, SAM has the most number of skills to press right now I think. Something like 38 once you count role actions? But it's certainly at the point where if you want to use a controller with the cross hotbar then you're going to have to sacrifice a skill or two.

If they merge Kaiten and Iaijutsu then they need to merge DRG's Life Surge and Full Thrust. As well as Reassemble and Drill / Clean Shot

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

If they merge Kaiten and Iaijutsu then they need to merge DRG's Life Surge and Full Thrust. As well as Reassemble and Drill / Clean Shot

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In the case of Drill/Air Anchor, you don't 100% of the time use them with Reassemble. The cooldowns don't line up, so you use Drill by itself until Reassemble is up and then you get your boosted attack. If you don't manage your timing, you'll be in a situation where you can decide to wait a few seconds for Reassemble to come off cooldown or fire without it.

It's the same with Life Surge/Full Thrust. You'll use Full Thrust without Life Surge until it comes up, then get your enhanced attack when it does.

I guess you could make the argument that managing kenki for Kaiten is similar, but you'll pretty much always have the 20 kenki to spend on it, or if not you'll do pretty much any attack, get the 20 kenki, then use it. Since the suggestion was to make Iaijutsu just cost the 20 itself, it would come to the same thing without the pointless key press.

You will always, 100% of the time, cast Kaiten with Iaijutsu. You'll cast Drill/Full Thrust without Reassemble/Life Surge more often than you will with the buffs.

As someone who occasionally fat finger Kaiten on the wrong WS, I welcome the change. Let's me make the mistake of using it on a Gekko or something and still use it again for my Iai without having to wait. It's really just a QoL change for situations like that.

Just make Kaiten unavailable while the Kaiten buff is already present, as has been requested since 4.0...

Samurai is only really bloated by skills like Third Eye being separate from Seigan/Merciful Eyes, Shoha being separate from Meditation, and, as per most ShB jobs, needless AoE/ST ability equivalents (in our case, Guren/Senei).

There's not a single situation in this game where it's worth using Senei over Guren on even 2 targets, so why do we have two separate buttons for a non-decision? Don't get wrong -- I'd prefer that there were such a reason, but there just isn't, and aside from maybe the Zu fight in Pharos Sirius, there never has been. So why isn't Senei just a vs. sole-target or vs. first-target upgrade to Guren?

Edit: That being said, I'm pretty sure TG was a GCD previously as well. Although the delay is more noticeable without the cast-time, I see no reason to suddenly make it an oGCD. If I'm misremembering and it was already an oGCD but with a cast time, like HW-era Empyreal Arrow, then simply reducing it to a half-GCD should be sufficient.

Make Iai cost 20 kenki can cause a problem in 50-60 contents

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Make Iai cost 20 kenki can cause a problem in 50-60 contents

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True, but can easily be fixed with a trait at 52 instead of Kaiten being introduced to the move set. (lvl 52 trait Iaijutsu is now 50% more potent, but now costs 20 kenki)

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Originally Posted by Jorthak

True, but can easily be fixed with a trait at 52 instead of Kaiten being introduced to the move set. (lvl 52 trait Iaijutsu is now 50% more potent, but now costs 20 kenki)

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I guess many of us players are just as forgetful about the leveling experience as the devs seem to be.

At level 52, you'd be limited to Midare only. Higanbana, generating only 5-10 Kenki over its Sen generation in ST combat, and Tenka Goken, generating only 10-15 Kenki over its Sen generation in ST combat, would be impossible to cast. That or you'd be forced to spam Enpi to make up the difference. And all that's assuming the Samurai lands every positional, else they can't even use Midare until having overridden as many Sen as they missed positionals (or, spam Yukikaze).

You don't get anything like current Kenki play until level 62. The two experiences are worlds apart.

hmm good point. guess it would require more trait / ability shuffling... hmm...

What if Kaiten became a heavy thrust/enochian type of buff

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Originally Posted by Duskane

What if Kaiten became a heavy thrust/enochian type of buff

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Then it'd be far less compelling even than now. There's a good reason Enochian is considered bloat and Heavy Thrust, also considered bloat, was removed.

Or combine Kenki Mastery 1&2 and give it to SAM at lv.50. Not sure if it's a good idea.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Or combine Kenki Mastery 1&2 and give it to SAM at lv.50. Not sure if it's a good idea.

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The potency implications of such a skill would be massive. And, again, I just don't see the point. Kaiten hasn't been a poorly designed skill and, if they'd just fix the accidental double-tap issue, would in no way be a poorly designed skill now.

I'd agree readily if one wanted to make the claim that Shoha/Meditation, Senei/Guren, or Third Eye/Merciful Eyes/Seigan could use some consolidation. But, Kaiten?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The potency implications of such a skill would be massive. And, again, I just don't see the point. Kaiten hasn't been a poorly designed skill and, if they'd just fix the accidental double-tap issue, would in no way be a poorly designed skill now.

I'd agree readily if one wanted to make the claim that Shoha/Meditation, Senei/Guren, or Third Eye/Merciful Eyes/Seigan could use some consolidation. But, Kaiten?

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I mean instead of 2 mastery at separate level, make it just 1 skill and move it to lv 50. but I can agree it isn't a good idea.

As i thought about it, the DPS for Sam is a bit low at 50 and 60 due to the lack of Kenki anyways.

Why not make it so the Kenki generation rate at level 52 works like the Kenki mastery 2 trait. Then move Kaiten to a trait at 52 to be a 25% damage increase to Iaijutsu, and also add the 20 Kenki cost to Iaijutsu? (This way the Sam DPS gets to be comparable to other DPS at 60 at the very least) Then the level where Kenki Mastery 2 used to be, add in Kaiten Mastery 2 which then increases the value to 50% at the same cost of 20 Kenki?

Also i seen a post about making a mistake and using Kaiten with "Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze" for example while it has it's 5 second recast timer. The thing is sure it sucks you have to wait 5 second to use Kaiten again, but you can also "Queue up" your next combo before using Kaiten again. Meaning: Hakaze (2 - 2.5 seconds) > Shifu (2 - 2.5 seconds) > Kaiten > Iaijutsu > Kasha without fear of losing your combo too. So while the recast timer can be kind of detrimental, you can still get around it by queueing up another combo while you wait for the recast timer. There is no way to get back lost kenki on accidental button presses. (in the immediate sense) so by having it as a 1 second recast, you hurt yourself even more because now not only could you accidentally use it with "Kasha, Gekko, or Yukikaze" you can also accidentally press it twice causing even more error.

The argument of Heavy Thrust / Enochian for a comparison is kind of a bad one, if Kaiten were to be a 30 second consistent damage bonus, then yes it would be like Heavy Thrust / Enochian, but since it's "consumed" upon the next weapon skill used, it doesn't function the same was as those 2 abilities. Because of that reason it becomes even more of a bloated ability than Heavy Thrust and Enochian ever was.

Tbh, I'd be really happy if instead of merging Kaiten with Iaijutsu, they'd prevent players from applying Kaiten again if the buff is already active. Kaiten isn't a "bloating" skill in your hotbar. Senei/Guren is one tho. Merciful Eyes/Third Eye is one too. While I understand the fact that without Senei, Samuraï wouldn't have gained any really cool new animation from 70 to 80, the extra space it takes does hinder your hotbar, even more while playing on controller. The same can be said about Merciful Eye, which has lost its enmity reduction buff, making it a really, really niche skill now, that you often wouldn't take over Seigan.

Thing with Samuraï is that we do have a lot of really niche skills that will be used once or twice during a fight (or even not at all, in the case of Guren). Meditate along with the infamous Shoha, the Yaten/Enpi/Gyoten combo (again, make Enpi not break combo, that would make such a huge difference), Merciful Eyes heals barely enough to be qualified as a decent self heal after getting hit with Third Eye. I dunno about you, but I heal more with a single tick of Bloodbath/Combo finisher than with Merciful Eye, Kaeshi Higanbana... And now we even got a bad Hagakure in the insane list of skills that are almost never used.

Niche skills are cool, don't get me wrong. They allow us to optimize and adapt to a lot of situations (Again, flexibility is key when playing a Sam, which is why Hagakure was really good in Stormblood) but there are times when it's just... Bad to have that much "useless" skills that will barely get used in one or two fight (talking about Kaeshi Higanbana here as an example).

Imo there needs to be some deeper thought behind 5.X Samurai because right now... It doesn't feel like we improved since Stormblood. Yes, the goal was to make it even better at doing what it already does ("nailed it", said the dev who removed Hagakure at the time) but I still wonder why half of my hotbar is just full of skills that most of the time I won't use more than once in a fight. Merge some skills with others, at least some skills that do proc. Seigan into Shinten. Merciful Eye into Third Eye. Find some reason to use Kaeshi Higanbana. Find a way to fuse Guren and Senei, maybe find a way to keep both animations if peoples really want it... But atm, for a job that requires a lot of fight optimization, the job itself lacks a lot of it. :rolleyes:

I for one would be all for Kaiten to be grayed out on the hot bar if the Buff was currently active on the character too. I believe its the only ability in game with a 1 second recast time with a low resource cost and not a direct damaging attack if i am not mistaken. As long as it doesn't put a player in a 1 second CD from accidentally pressing it and can't be pressed again while its active, it would be tuned correctly.

My issue with Kaiten isn't even the potential multiple misuses. Though I won't deny that a misused Kaiten basically costs you two gcds, and that stings. As was pointed out earlier, Kaiten will ALWAYS be paired with iaijutsu. This makes iaijutsu rely on multiple resources, and few things in this game piss me off more than skills that require multiple resources to use. Guren and Senei suffer the same as well. As does Third Eye.

Many things can be done to trim SAMs hedges that is for sure.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Or combine Kenki Mastery 1&2 and give it to SAM at lv.50. Not sure if it's a good idea.

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I wouldn't be opposed to it. Right now Kenki Mastery 1 is frankly really low impact and results in you being starved for using Gyoten when you'd normally want to use a gap closer and not always being able to Kaiten your Iaijutsu. The problem is Kenki Mastery 2 is designed around having Shinten as a dump, so it'd either create bad habits where you'd Kaiten combo finishers, waste gauge, or they'd have to move Shinten down to 52 and make Samurai super busted at those levels (not that the devs care about low level job functionality).

The alternative would be to add a trait at level 52 when you get Kenki mastery 2 called "Enhanced Iaijutsu" that adds the Kenki cost to Iaijutsu in exchange for boosting the potency of all the Kenki actions. That ends up being a slight nerf to Samurai at 50-61, but again the devs don't balance around Job feel or damage output at anything but the top level.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

My issue with Kaiten isn't even the potential multiple misuses. Though I won't deny that a misused Kaiten basically costs you two gcds, and that stings. As was pointed out earlier, Kaiten will ALWAYS be paired with iaijutsu. This makes iaijutsu rely on multiple resources, and few things in this game piss me off more than skills that require multiple resources to use. Guren and Senei suffer the same as well. As does Third Eye.

Many things can be done to trim SAMs hedges that is for sure.

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I hadn't considered it before now because Samurai as a job has basically nothing in the way of oGCDs to weave, but this exact interaction was one of the things I hated so much about Power Surge on Dragoon in Heavensward. You literally just used it on every other Jump and there was no more thought to it than that, and they changed it just by increasing the potency of Jump by 50 which evened out. So just folding the cost of Kaiten onto Iaijutsu just saves a button press and doesn't buff the job or effect the kenki economy in any way, it's a good change.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I hadn't considered it before now because Samurai as a job has basically nothing in the way of oGCDs to weave, but this exact interaction was one of the things I hated so much about Power Surge on Dragoon in Heavensward. You literally just used it on every other Jump and there was no more thought to it than that, and they changed it just by increasing the potency of Jump by 50 which evened out. So just folding the cost of Kaiten onto Iaijutsu just saves a button press and doesn't buff the job or effect the kenki economy in any way, it's a good change.

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The only way to make a mistake when using Power Surge, however, was to outright forget it exists. That's not quite the case for Kaiten. Heck, Kaiten is more like Geirskogul back in Heavensward, when it came at cost of Blood of the Dragon duration, than it is to Power Surge; it's a shared-resource interaction -- an obligatory one, but an interaction nonetheless that must be accounted for in advance.

And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

:: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

I don't understand how you can double-use Kaiten when this game gives you a ton of buffer for oGCDs. There is never a reason to mash it, making the entire initial premise of the thread irrelevant. That said, of the proposed solutions, the only one that works without further damaging the job is simply the "goes on CD after the buff is consumed" idea someone had.

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That wouldn't work either, though. It'd offer just as much chance to override the existing Kaiten buff while also giving you an overly long CD to prevent it from being used within a GCD of the last (e.g. Midare, combo-finisher, Higanbana).

You could easily fix the issue by making...

• Kaiten's CD refresh when the buff is consumed, or
• Making Kaiten itself unavailable when and only when the buff is already up (even more intuitive).

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Originally Posted by Darsien

What do you mean "That wouldn't work." The second bullet is literally what I said. When it keeps the 1 sec CD, you can still get it without clipping.

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Goes ON cooldown after the buff is consumed =/= goes OFF cooldown after the buff is consumed. I'm not seeing how you could possibly be conflating the two.

What you mentioned, "goes on CD after the buff is consumed" = Has no cooldown, consuming 20 Kenki for each extra time you spam the key, even within the single second and once the buff is consumed by the weaponskill, you can't use Kaiten again until at least late enough into the oGCD gap that it'd cause clipping (1 second later, since you can't queue it, nor does it recharge during the weaponskill animation itself or the prior oGCD gap).

Maybe this is a "I could care less" thing where you're going to tell me that opposites, of which only one is a logical fit, are effectively the exact same thing?

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Originally Posted by Darsien

SAM is a 40+ Action-Per-Minute class with half of those actions being oGCDs. You are simply wrong.

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Depends on how you look at it. In terms of Raw Number of actions it doesn't really have a whole lot, especially compared to Dragoon/Ninja which have tons of oGCD actions. The thing that inflates Samurai's oGCD numbers is Shinten which while it is an oGCD is ultimately just a skill you use to prevent capping on gauge. Unlike Dragoon's Jumps or anything Ninja's Mudra's/everything else, there's rarely an opportunity cost to sitting on a Shinten unless you're about to cap on Kenki because by design it can't drift.

Because Samurai has a lot of freedom in how it uses it's oGCDs I failed to consider how Kaiten only really interacted with a single other button in all but the most Niche of circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

:: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Tbh, the discussion about Kaiten shouldn't be that much of a concern. Indeed, making it unavailable while the buff is still active would be neat, but Kaiten is by far one of the smallest issue we have with the current Samuraï. If you wanna talk about useless skills, just look at the famous Kaeshi Higanbana. Or even the whole Tsubame thing that made our rotation really akward. (Either make it an oGCD or make it a weaponskill, I don't understand why some class like MCH or Gunbreaker have so much weaponskill with a high cooldown while samuraï on the other side is stuck with an ability that triggers a GCD, especially one that must be used right after a Iaijutsu)

Tbh, I'd say that if we're talking about kenki, we might need to look at Shinten or Ikishôten and not Kaiten...

I'm one of those that would love to see the old Hagakure back, but I doubt we'll ever see that happen. Ikishôten isn't a bad ability tbh, but unlike old Hagakure, it doesn't synergize with Tsubame, like at all... And Shinten spamming wasn't that bad... At least in terms of dps gain. (Which I believe with the 5.0 Midare buff Shinten spamming wouldn't be worth it anyway, but maybe I'm wrong, I'm bad with numbers)

Anyway, all of that was to say that Kaiten, while needing some attention, isn't the most urgent thing to look out for Samuraï's kit. Preventing the use of Kaiten if the buff is already active would solve the issue of pressing it twice. Dragoons already have that with Blood of the Dragon, when they enter the Life state. So why not Sam ? Or will it make the class too strong ? Like how they nerfed Senei after the media tour ? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

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Yeah.

Never hit that slope in this game.

*looks at Tanks*

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Depends on how you look at it. In terms of Raw Number of actions it doesn't really have a whole lot, especially compared to Dragoon/Ninja which have tons of oGCD actions. The thing that inflates Samurai's oGCD numbers is Shinten which while it is an oGCD is ultimately just a skill you use to prevent capping on gauge. Unlike Dragoon's Jumps or anything Ninja's Mudra's/everything else, there's rarely an opportunity cost to sitting on a Shinten unless you're about to cap on Kenki because by design it can't drift.

Because Samurai has a lot of freedom in how it uses it's oGCDs I failed to consider how Kaiten only really interacted with a single other button in all but the most Niche of circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

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Anyone who has played Heavensward Monk at a high level should know that concern is quite warranted.

Or... you know... ever played a tank...

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The only way to make a mistake when using Power Surge, however, was to outright forget it exists. That's not quite the case for Kaiten. Heck, Kaiten is more like Geirskogul back in Heavensward, when it came at cost of Blood of the Dragon duration, than it is to Power Surge; it's a shared-resource interaction -- an obligatory one, but an interaction nonetheless that must be accounted for in advance.

And what's the next step, then? If Kaiten is bloat because it's used only at a specific time, then what about Shinten, which is used only as a last resort and thus "complicated" only by however many prior layers of greater efficiency come before it (Senei > Kaiten > Seigan)? Heck, what about Senei/Guren, since it's already simply used once every 2 minutes and spends the rest of the time as bar bloat and is only complicated by Kaiten and Ikishoten... or, literally just Ikishoten, which would already be paired to its use and therefore would only remove the 50-gauge complication outright? Where do we drawn the line here? Every block you pull from the fundamentals of Samurai's gauge system will have a toppling effect on its more advanced components. Kaiten, at least, requires foresight where Shinten requires none. Due to Ikishoten, Guren (and ofc Senei) now require even less than they used to -- arguably no more, now, than Kaiten.

If anything, shouldn't we be considering how we can make Kaiten have other situations for its usefulness rather than gutting what little complexity remains to the job? For instance, what if Ikishoten allowed for compounding (non-Iajutsu) weaponskill potency rather than granting a Guren/Senei of gauge? Or what if you tossed in an Art of Sword/Swell/Storm mechanic that similarly gave other circumstances by which Kaiten would be more efficient on a non-Iajutsu weaponskill than Shinten -- something situational that you could work towards and exploit? And consider -- Kaiten will always be used with Iajutsu, true, but not every Iajutsu, especially given a mistake or an incoming, unfortunately-timed jump, will be used with a Kaiten.

:: There are enough situations in which I might prefer to conserve gauge over buffing an Iajutsu that I'd rather Kaiten remain manual in its interaction with Iajutsu. And I certainly don't want to see Samurai's complexity gutted even further.

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This. I don't wanna be at monk spot right now. Thanks.

TL;DR is Hissatsu: Kaiten recast timer at 1 second is for Meikyo Shisui Burst if you have enough Kenki to get 4 Hissatsu: Kaitens in a row with True North up/active(Ikishoten can make this easier to achieve) really high burst when Senei is on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

TL;DR is Hissatsu: Kaiten recast timer at 1 second is for Meikyo Shisui Burst if you have enough Kenki to get 4 Hissatsu: Kaitens in a row with True North up/active(Ikishoten can make this easier to achieve) really high burst when Senei is on cooldown.

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But isn't it better to spend the Kenki on Shinten instead of a combo finisher?

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

But isn't it better to spend the Kenki on Shinten instead of a combo finisher?

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Shinten is 320 potency for 25 Kenki, which when divided out gives us 12.8 potency per Kenki, or 64 per 5. This means Kaiten has to give a minimum of 256 (64x4) potency in order to equal Shinten. At 480 potency on Gekko/Kasha Kaiten grants 240 additional potency, so you're still better off saving that Kenki for Shinten instead of using it on a Kaiten there.

In other words, you're correct.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

But isn't it better to spend the Kenki on Shinten instead of a combo finisher?

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Meikyo Shisui lets excute 3 weaponskill combos without meeting prerequisites, which mean you get combo potencies AND combo bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Shinten is 320 potency for 25 Kenki, which when divided out gives us 12.8 potency per Kenki, or 64 per 5. This means Kaiten has to give a minimum of 256 (64x4) potency in order to equal Shinten. At 480 potency on Gekko/Kasha Kaiten grants 240 additional potency, so you're still better off saving that Kenki for Shinten instead of using it on a Kaiten there.

In other words, you're correct.

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If Meikyo Shisui, Hissatsu: Senei, and Tsubame-gaeshi are all on cooldown then yes.


If only Hissatsu: Senei and Tsubame-gaeshi are on cooldown and Meikyo is about to come up, and you just did Kaiten buffed Midare Setsugekka, and you also need to factor in how much Kenki you should have to for max Meikyo Shisui damage(45 or more Kenki) since Yukikaze, Kasha, and Gekko generate up to 35 Kenki(yes Yukikaze needs to be have the Kaiten buff as well but this is only for Meikyo Shisui burst). However, this only works for me and sometimes you need to hit True North for max Kenki generation during this as well so this is more general and is up to other players if they want to take the hit to their Kenki gauge sooner rather than later, and if they can get a Kaiten buffed Higanbana before their Shifu and Jinpu buffs fall off after, so speed demons will want as much skillspeed for that.


But we do know that SAMs Shoha is getting reworked so the Hissatsu: Kaiten change might not be around for long much longer...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Meikyo Shisui lets excute 3 weaponskill combos without meeting prerequisites, which mean you get combo potencies AND combo bonuses.

If Meikyo Shisui, Hissatsu: Senei, and Tsubame-gaeshi are all on cooldown then yes..

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Your Kenki order is Kaiten >= Senei > Seigan(lol) > Shinten. There is no point where using Kaiten on combo finishers is a gain over just using Shinten.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Your Kenki order is Kaiten >= Senei > Seigan(lol) > Shinten. There is no point where using Kaiten on combo finishers is a gain over just using Shinten.

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I don't use Seigan because it's not worth the damage from it and Merciful Eyes is better because it is a self heal but you know server ticks are...


But Shinten I use when not in Meikyo Shisui burst and when Senei is not up, but again; the 1 second recast Kaiten might not be around for 5.1...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I don't use Seigan because it's not worth the damage from it and Merciful Eyes is better because it is a self heal but you know server ticks are...


But Shinten I use when not in Meikyo Shisui burst and when Senei is not up, but again; the 1 second recast Kaiten might not be around for 5.1...

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Seigan is actually a DPS gain with 14.666 potency per kenki Vs 12.8 from shinten

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I don't use Seigan because it's not worth the damage from it and Merciful Eyes is better because it is a self heal but you know server ticks are...

But Shinten I use when not in Meikyo Shisui burst and when Senei is not up, but again; the 1 second recast Kaiten might not be around for 5.1...

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So you're costing yourself 28 potency up to every 15 seconds, a little over 100 ppm, so you can heal yourself for miniscule amounts that would have been AoE healed anyways? When our enmity generation was absurd, Merciful Eyes was indeed the greater rDPS without a NIN, but now... I have to wonder why you'd take Eyes over Seigan if, for instance, you were to flush one completely off your bar.

There's also no reason not to use Shinten in Meikyo Shisui burst. If you're running the 2s build, for instance, those 3 GCDs should be among the 5 inside of Trick Attack, but so should as much oGCD damage as possible. Every other minute, that's going to mean maximum Shinten usage (and a Seigan, if the opportunity arises, though it's better used for getting you precisely to 85/90/95 before that burst). ..If you honestly mean you're using Kaiten on the MKSS finishers... don't. That's costing you at least 16 potency for Gekko/Kasha and more for Yukikaze, all to have a faintly more unwieldy animation.

All that really is less of a "bloat" thing and more of a "refusal to use".

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Seigan is actually a DPS gain with 14.666 potency per kenki Vs 12.8 from shinten

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I don't even have Seigan on my hotbar mostly because of how situational it is and if it's too situational for me to use properly then I won't really use it, especially since Seigan has prerequisite on top of the gauge cost, which is enough to make me ignore Seigan because if I were to use it I would more than likely die from a mechanic due to server ticks.


In fact certain skills being situational which is based on very specific pieces of content that nobody is going to be playing in generally because of factors that nearly make it impossible to get even a clear(mostly lack of an actual voice chat system in-game to help better explain mechanics of a fight or give instructions/directions of what to do for a given fight), which is why people are still asking for an easier way to know if something is Physical Damage, Magical Damage, or Current Max HP Damage, and why DRKs are still asking for Living Dead to be re-worked even though I believe Hallowed Ground and Sentinel should be tank role actions, why ASTs hate the new card system for one of their skills, and also why certain jobs have no real use for certain substats.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I don't even have Seigan on my hotbar mostly because of how situational it is and if it's too situational for me to use properly then I won't really use it, especially since Seigan has prerequisite on top of the gauge cost, which is enough to make me ignore Seigan because if I were to use it I would more than likely die from a mechanic due to server ticks.

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This is why peoples are asking for some de-bloating of Sam's toolkit. Merciful Eyes should be fused with third eye, changing to it whenever you get a proc. The same should be done for Shinten and Seigan tbh, with Seigan replacing Shinten every time you hit a Third Eye proc... Or simple Guren/Senei, which are the same skill but with a different animation. Or just Shoha and Meditate... Or Hagakure and Ikis-... Well, we'd like that to happen. :rolleyes: