So I just realised something today. With exception of Shinryu, every single final boss is final fantasy VII inspired (even 1.0). This might seem like a coincidence, but we are now 5 final bosses in, and 4/5 are from FFVII, has anyone else noticed this trend?
To recap:
1.0: Nael - Deliberately inspired by Sephiroth (VIIth legion, meteor project, etc.)
2.0: Ultima Weapon - Not exclusive to VII, but VII is the original incarnation of this form.
3.0: Thordan - Knights of the Round, a FFVII summon
4.0: Shinryu - FFV
5.0: Hades - A FFVII summon
It just seems odd when you write it down, especially considering there are so many other great candidates (or maybe something original?).
Edit: I've since learned that Hades was also in FFIX as a secret boss, and in FFXI, so I guess it lowers this one - I'd still like to see something not from VII though.
All Final Boss origins (spoilers obviously)
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08-21-2019, 10:14 PMLambdafishAll Final Boss origins (spoilers obviously)
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08-21-2019, 10:28 PMHumanNinjaToo
Actually Ultima Weapon first appeared in FF6 as Atma Weapon, so original source would be FF6 not FF7. Knights of the Round is not FF7 exclusive. It appeared in Type-0 as a summon, as well as some lesser known FF iterations. Hades was also in FF5, FF9, and was a boss in an FF11 expansion; so neither is Hades exclusive to FF7.
It just seemed like you were getting at the idea of bosses being ripped solely from FF7, when in fact many of those characters appeared in other FF titles.
Even though I really enjoy FF lore in general, and I get a kick out of characters from some of my favorite FF games being brought to life again in FF14, I can see the need for original characters as well. It can't all be fan service I guess. -
08-21-2019, 10:33 PMLambdafishI did not know that Hades was in FFIX thanks for clarifying that, that does make me feel slightly better about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo
As for KotR being in Type 0, that is a spin-off game, and the only example I can think of. I doubt the dev team even looked at Type 0 when coming up with Thordan. On the topic of 2.0, look up FFVI's atma weapon, its nothing like the FFXIV ultima weapon (and was later referenced in the dungeon boss Ultima Beast), the FFXIV Ultima Weapon is based on the FFVII design.
My opinion is less that "they are just from FFVII" and more that "FFVII is the defining appearance of this entity, and likely the inspiration for the FFXIV incarnation".
I guess my frustration comes from loving Emet-Selch as a character, and then reducing his final battle to yet another FFVII reference (in my mind at least). Keep the same fight, keep the same design but omit the name Hades and call the boss Emet-Selch, that would make it so much better in my eyes. -
08-21-2019, 10:33 PMFal_Kearst
Also fun fact Hades was the final boss in FFXI Seekers of Adoulin.
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08-21-2019, 10:41 PMHumanNinjaTooOkay, I see that point. Maybe some of the dev team responsible for those things were big FF7 fans? Or I would like to think that while they were working those things out, they were taking inspiration from the fact that FF7 20 year anniversary was last year. So maybe this was their way of recognizing that anniversary since SE as a company really failed to do anything else exciting with that hallmark anniversary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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08-21-2019, 10:49 PMSeraphor
Hades seems more likely drawn from FFIX to me.
Hades was originally intended to be the final boss of FFIX, but they decided against it as they didn't want to make a former summon the final boss of the game. So instead Necron came out of nowhere and Hades was relegated to a secret hidden boss.
Hades in FFXIV... seemed to come out of nowhere. Which is kinda fitting. (although fits perfectly considering the theme and nature of the Ascians)
It's more that they want the final boss of each expansion, to be a notable boss or summon from a previous game.
Ultima Weapon
Knights of the Round
Shinryu
Hades -
08-21-2019, 10:54 PMAuraAstra
The concept of the Ultima Weapon as a boss has appeared in 9 of the "numbered" Final Fantasy games (as well as most of the spinoffs), with its first appearance in FFII. While the appearance is based on that of the Ultimate Weapon in FFVII, the idea is in no way unique to that game.
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08-21-2019, 11:01 PMHumanNinjaTooNot sure you can count that really. Soul of Rebirth was added for 20 year anniversary re-release for FF2 when it hit mobile platform in 2012 (I believe). So that was far from the first appearance of Ulitma Weapon in FF numbered franchise.Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraAstra
EDIT: But you're absolutely right in that Ultima Weapon is not unique to FF7. But I think the OP was making the point that the Ultima Weapon we see in FF14 was inspired by the FF7 version of Ultima Weapon. -
08-21-2019, 11:25 PMAuraAstraUltima Weapon first appeared in Dawn of Souls (the FFI and FFII compilation), which was released in 2004.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo
The point I was really trying to make was more that it's a bit off-point to suggest that just because the appearance was apparently inspired by a specific incarnation (or incarnations, because the FFVIII version also has a similar look), the entire boss was inspired by a single prior game.
Ultima Weapon is, in that sense, no different from any other "legacy" encounter used along the course of the story such as Ifrit or Shiva who have also been fixtures in the FF-verse. -
08-21-2019, 11:31 PMHumanNinjaTooStill a decade after FF6's Altima Weapon, and 7 years after FF7's Ultima Weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraAstra
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08-21-2019, 11:43 PMLambdafishhttps://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20080922004701 FFII Ultima WeaponQuote:
Originally Posted by AuraAstra
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100513170744 FFVII Ultima Weapon
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20131214055112 FFXIV Ultima Weapon
I'm not saying that FFVII is the only game with Ultima weapon (I directly said this), I'm saying that XIV is directly influenced by it's design (As is the FFVIII one for that matter, it even has the FFVII sword in its hand). Saying that FFII's Ultima Weapon inspired the XIV boss is like saying that FFVIII's omega weapon inspired the FFXIV Omega boss.
Edit to end an irrelevant argument:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20120506223427 FFVIII Ultima Weapon
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130927194837 FFX Ultima Weapon
Even if we take the two Ultima Weapons that share concepts with the FFVII one, we can see that even they deviate from the design and don't resemble the VII incarnation as much as the XIV one does. The VIII one resembles two creatures fused together, with the quadrupedal half having it's own "face", and the top half seemingly riding this half. The top half is also centralised on the body, which the XIV one does not.
The FFX incarnation is arguable closer than the FFVIII incarnation, removing the two beast element and giving the creature much larger legs in a squatted position. It also removes the wings in favour of large tendrals from it's shoulders.
So yes. XIV's Ultima weapon is inspired by VII, not any other final fantasy, that is very clear to see by just looking at the images. -
08-21-2019, 11:47 PMSeraphor
Very loosely.
FFVIII's version is also very similar, and none of them have previously been mechanical in nature.
Also, Omega and Omega Weapon have always been entirely different things. -
08-21-2019, 11:56 PMLambdafishUltima Weapon in XIV isn't mechanical in nature, it is chimerical. The allagans were famous for their biotech, and Ultima Weapon is their greatest creation from that. It might be augmented with technology (some of which is likely garlean) but it is still a living creature. Another example of this would be the Ultima Beast in Fractal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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08-22-2019, 12:04 AMHumanNinjaTooGood 'ole behemoth palate swap, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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08-22-2019, 12:17 AMNariel
You are from FFVII ! You are from FFVII !! You are from FFVII !!! You are all from FFVII !!!!
https://i.imgur.com/JNhU5Tt.gif?noredirect
Gosh it make me sick of FFVII. Give it a break will ya ?! -
08-22-2019, 12:33 AMBerteaux_Braumegain
Do Vishap, Ilberd, and Elidibus!Zenos not count?
Alternatively, Nidhogg and Tsukuyomi if we're only counting Trials.
An excellent point. Vauthry and the jester girls already reminded me of Brahne, Zorn, and Thorn, but the final boss being Hades after a lengthy discussion about whether or not the current inhabitants of the world get to live vs. some people who are already dead does evoke similar beats as the plot on Terra and Kuja's existential crisis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
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08-22-2019, 12:47 AMLambdafishWhy would these bosses count at all? Vishap is a random trial at the beginning of 2.55 (who acts as a prologue to heavensward more than anything), Ilberd is a dungeon boss that furthers the plot rather than concludes it, and ElidiZenos is a solo instance that furthers the plot rather than concludes it. They might be good antagonists (well, one of them anyway) but the final boss of an expansion is something entirely different altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain
This would depend how you see the patch stories. If you take the expansion itself as a self-contained arc, and patches as extra story (some of which is epilogue) then no they do not count. Considering the nature of the story (in which both of these characters were defeated and then brought back) the expansions themselves leave very little fundamentally unresolved, and the lvl 50, 60, 70, 80 final trial is seen as the "End".Quote:
Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain
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08-22-2019, 12:52 AMMaethusXionJust wait til the VIIRemake comes out... we'll get an event that lasts for the rest of the expansion (probably through 7.77)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nariel
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08-22-2019, 01:16 AMUltimatecaliburWhen you leave out the Raid final bosses the final boss designs can come off as VII centric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
1.0 Nael - FFVII based
2.0 Ultima Weapon - FFVI originated/FF VII design base
2.4 Bahamut - First appearance FFI first boss fight FFIII
2.5 Cloud of Darkness - FFIII
3.0 Thordan - FFVII Summon
3.4 Alexander - FFIV as Giant of Babil/FFVI as summon Alexander
3.5 Diablos - FFVIII summon
4.0 Shinryu - FFV Super Boss
4.4 Omega - FFV Super Boss (Of note is that the FFI, FFV and FFVI Final bosses are fought as part of the raid series)
4.5 Ultima - FFT Final Boss
5.0 Hades - FFVII as a summon/FFVIII as a Super Boss -
08-22-2019, 04:25 AMZeonx
Shinryu is the final boss of abyss in FFXI
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08-22-2019, 04:56 AMWiccan026
Final Fantasy games are almost never really linked via story, they are linked through the concept of "fantasy" and thru the common repeats of certain things (character names, bosses, summons, etc).
I think you're stretching just because Emet is one of the characters you cared about and you now think he was nothing but a "tie" to FFVII.
Emet as a character is nothing like the mindless summon of VII and is "his" own self contained character.. does his real name happen to be Hades and than he turns into a representation of such, yes.... but Hades was first released in FFV anyways (and saying the art means it really is tied to another game instead of when they first started using it is hogwash, because while they may have done character art back than obviously lesser systems games had constraints that made characters look different than they intended, not to mention character art didn't always equate to what the character looked like in game (Terra's original character art, portrayed her as blond, the game itself pictured her with green hair, in order to help differentiate her from Celes, and is actually considered what the character looks like than the original character art).
The FF series reuses so many parts of itself to help keep the bond of the games together but nothing is really truly something from another game. Inspired by, heavily inspired by but not the same. -
08-22-2019, 05:00 AMGurneyYeah take a COR in there with MAG ATTK gear and rolls and use a Primal Brew could one shot it with Wildfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeonx
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08-22-2019, 05:53 AMEnkidohI've heard it mentioned that Yoshi's favourite FF game is indeed FFVII so maybe Lambdafish might be onto something....Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo
But most likely it's probably just coincidence (also technically ARR's final boss wasn't the Ultima Weapon at all, but Lahabrea. And then you had the final ARR patch story final boss in the form of Vshap on the Steps of Faith. Then Heavensward's patch final boss against Ilberd on Baelsar's Wall... etc etc.). -
08-22-2019, 06:29 AMzylo1010
Most is the enemies in the game are ripped from ffxi so it makes sense they'd take from other games too.
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08-22-2019, 04:21 PMGwaeron
Apart from the part where he tried to drop a meteor, I don't see how Nael is FFVII at all... His appearance, speech, background, motivations, fighting style and ability use are nothing like Sephiroth's. Recurring bosses and summons are nothing new to FFXIV.
I think they're ripping off other FF games way too much, instead of just being inspired, while adding very little originality. But even I don't really get the OP's complaints. -
08-22-2019, 04:34 PMEnkidohThere was also a scene in 1.0 where Nael turned away from the camera and strode into flames, much like an iconic scene of Sephiroth in FFVII disappearing into the flames of Nibelheim burning, as well as the designation for Nael's Garlean Legion was the VIIth Legion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwaeron
But yeah, other than that and the whole 'meteor' thing Nael isn't literally Sephiroth at all. Different backstory, different weapon, different appearence, different gender and race (although SE themselves were rather confused as to exactly what gender Nael was meant to be, zigzagging the issue from 1.0 through ARR, until finally retconning things in the lorebook that the 'real' Nael was male but long dead and that the one that summoned Dalamud and fought in the Rivenroad and the Second Coil of Bahamut was actually his younger sister who took his name and identity. Again, that is nothing like Sephiroth).
Having said that it's obvious Nael was meant to hint at Sephiroth (and FFVII in general), but it's a little too much of a stretch to state that Nael is basically Sephiroth in fancy armour. -
08-22-2019, 05:59 PMZeonxI seen some monsters that looked exactly out of Suikoden 2 in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by zylo1010
fur guy with the eyes in FFXIV but here in suikoden
https://66.media.tumblr.com/0dc69b4e...tdpssk_400.gif
plant guys with teacup facesbut in ffxiv added some vines on back from shadowbringers but in suikoden 2
https://voreinmedia.files.wordpress....r-shiro-05.png
golems from one of the dungeons in shadowbringers but were in suikoden 2
http://videogamerecaps.com/beta/wp-c...n-part11-5.jpg -
08-22-2019, 06:45 PMSeraphor
You mean Ochu's and Construct 7?
Yeah, those are more similar to Final Fantasy enemies.
Not sure what 'fur' monster you're referring to. -
08-22-2019, 07:44 PMNalienUltima Weapon in XIV is clearly based off the same model as VII, I don't think anyone can possibly dispute that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HumanNinjaToo
Knights of the Round originated from, and are largely famous because of, VII. The fight in XIV even references VIIs screen shatter effect, and largely kept to the order and attacks of the Knights.
Same with Hades, his first appearance in Final Fantasy was in VII; IX and XI came after VII so that's obvious. While V obviously came before VII, Hades never appeared in the original release of V, he was an optional boss of an entirely new secret dungeon in the Advanced release of V, which came out after VII.
Hades is arguably the weakest link, since he was an entirely forgettable summon in VII, and his later appearances in IX and XI are far more noteworthy, but still. I'd like to think this is intentional, given Yoshida has said VII was his favorite title in the franchise, and his premier to XIV was very VII based with Project Meteor and Nael van Darnus... Heck, to this day our MSQ quest marker is essentially the VII Meteor logo... While Stormblood broke the trend with Shinryu, it was still very VII based in its references towards the end... We had a (totally-not) Mako Cannon, the Resonant Project pods were very reminiscent of VIIs SOLDIER pods, the first boss of Ala Mhigo is the first boss of VII, Aulus might as well be Hojo, heck Zenos might as well be Sephiroth at this point (Garlemalds ultimate soldier forged from human experimentation, has a thing for Nippon Steel, long hair, died but didn't stay dead...), and technically he was the one piloting Shinryu in the finale of Stormblood...
That said, the writers take from the entire franchise. Even the finale of 1.0, which is widely regarded as one big VII love song, still takes from other titles. Project Meteor, for example, ends up being a bigger reference to IV IMHO; Red Moon in both games turns out to be artificial. IVs had the Lumarians in hibernation, XIVs has the Meracydians. In both games, Bahamut is encountered on the Red Moon... Just here the moon came to us... Honestly one thing I love about this game is finding all these little nods to the past games.
Well, I've already corrected the V point. Hades didn't appear in V until the Advanced rerelease in 2006, 9 years after VII was released. His debut in Final Fantasy was with VII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiccan026
Despite that though, I would say Shadowbringers finale is much more a reference to IX than VII. Tempest honestly felt like a City of the Ancients (VII) reference to me, though Amaurot as a conjured illusion of a city is clearly a Zanarkand reference? Which arguably makes Emet a Yu Yevon (I'm going off memory here, but maybe someone wants to do a side by side of the Yu Yevon boss and Hades final form? In my head they have a striking similarity in shape, I'll need to check what Yu Yevon actually looked like later). Really though, the finale gave me a lot of IX vibes... Amaurot (the dungeon) was essentially Memoria, right down to having an antagonist (Garland in IX) talk you through the history you're walking through. The whole Ascian plot is also strikingly similar to Garlands plot in IX, the details are very different of course, but it still ultimately boils down to both wanting to sacrifice a young planet to save their old planet. You could even view the Terminus event in Amaurot as being the planet dying of "natural" causes, same as IXs Terra, although I honestly expect more VII on that point later (Jenova-reference caused the Terminus event, probably). Fun fact, but Hades was also originally intended to be the final boss of IX, rather than the optional superboss we got instead. That fact alone, combined with all the other IX references in the build up? Shadowbringers is the IX reference expansion in the same sense Stormblood was the V reference expansion with Shinryu and Omega. Despite the final boss, you could also say Heavensward was the VI reference expansion... Starts in a snowy city... Involves a floating continent with the Warring Triad... -
08-22-2019, 08:08 PMLambdafishThis is probably the fairest response to my post IMO. And I think people are mistake if they think I am in any way complaining about the bosses themselves, every expansion (maybe not ARR) has had a brilliant, epic ending, and all of the fights and bosses themselves are really well done. I guess the thing that irked me this time around was how little sense it made. Ultima Weapon was a huge plot point throughout the latter half of ARR, and made total sense and by it's reputation alone was very nostalgic, KOTR was a perfect fit for Thordan and his knights, and was a very clever way to fit the reference into a unique set of characters, and Shinryu, while an obvious reference was a known threat since 3.55. The final boss of Shadowbringers is Emet-Selch, that is how we know him, and that is what he should have stayed. The Hades reveal to me shows that the development team cannot have a final boss be an original character, and it just felt shoehorned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
The worst part about the Hades reveal is that VII isn't the only final fantasy, and it feels like it is focused on. FFX has very little representation, and FF8 didn't either until the Eden raid (and still doesn't given that the only connection to 8 is the music and Eden itself). Hell, the main antagonist of FFX is Sin, why wasn't that used in connection to the Sin eaters? It would have probably fit much better in the same way that KotR were a natural fit into Heavensward. -
08-22-2019, 09:14 PMNeriNay, the Furry monster is the one at Azim Steppe. Can't remember it's name, the one at the North of Dawn Throne.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
The carnivorous plant monster is the one in Ratika Forest.
The golem in the picture though, I can't recall.. -
08-22-2019, 10:21 PMHumanNinjaTooI think you make a pretty fair point about the other FF games not being fairly represented, considering FF7, FF8, and FFX are the three top selling games in FF numbered franchise. Considering FF8 Remaster launces in about two weeks, it's fair to assume that FF8 will soon be the top selling of those three titles. I'm not sure why FF14 doesn't play a little more fan service to big events for other FF/SE titles. It seems like wasted opportunities to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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08-23-2019, 04:27 AMlinayRegular-looking person turning into giant monster doesn't feel shoehorned in a Final Fantasy game. And with a change in form, a name change has a big chance of happening, so that doesn't feel shoehorned either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Underrepresenting other FF games is a different matter and shouldn't really affect the Hades reveal. -
08-23-2019, 05:57 AMEnkidohOh, you mean snurbles? The hairy balls with faces that are voidsent? Now that you mention it they do seem to look a lot like that Suikoden enemy (they've never appeared in any other FF game from my knowledge, although they were also in FFXIV 1.0).Quote:
Originally Posted by Neri
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08-23-2019, 08:13 AMBarraindHer design mirrors the concept art of FF2's Emperor Mateus. Her armor in Nael form is almost a perfect replica of it, only Garlean White instead of Palamecian gold. Her Nael deus Darnus form takes the same purple and gold color pattern and darkens her skin, before giving her Bahamut style wings. Mateus's second form is a darker shadow version, and his remastered God forms take traditional Final Fantasy god themes for wings.Quote:
1.0: Nael - Deliberately inspired by Sephiroth (VIIth legion, meteor project, etc.)
Ultima Weapon was first seen in 6.Quote:
Ultima Weapon - Not exclusive to VII, but VII is the original incarnation of this form.
Also in 5, though slightly different.Quote:
Hades
Additionally, theres long been a thought that Hades and Diabolos are the same being, as even the "We have every summon ever" Revenant Wings, which included both Ifrit and Jinn (4's SNES name for Ifrit), didnt include Hades.
14 is the first Final Fantasy where both of those make an appearance in the same game.
Someone getting a new name in their final boss form has literally been around since Final Fantasy started with Garland becoming Chaos as a result of his timestream sillyness.Quote:
The Hades reveal to me shows that the development team cannot have a final boss be an original character, and it just felt shoehorned.
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08-23-2019, 01:30 PMEloah
If you limit your scope to just the "final" bosses, then you'll miss all of the other references that XIV has. VII isn't over referenced and other ff games arent under refernced, it's just what you choose to look at. For instance The Crystal Tower is one giant FFIII reference. It's all where you choose to look.
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08-23-2019, 05:15 PMEnkidohNot true, Diabolos and Hades both appeared together in FFXI as completly seperate and different entities (Diabolos is an Avatar in the Chains of Promathia expansion (story wise he's the guardian of Dreamland Dynamis), while Hades is the final boss of the Seekers of Adoulin expansion (Diabolos is also an actual player summon in the game, thus it is possible if the player is SMN to actually summon Diabolos against Hades - although given both are Darkness elemental it would be like throwing a burning rag on a fire. ;)).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barraind
Either way, Diabolos and Hades are completely different and independent summons usually in past FF games (Diabolos is usually depicted as a red and black winged demon while Hades is usually a hooded or robed, often skeletal, warlock-like entity.