I was doing Doma Castle with a Mch today, and no matter what i did i could not out damage them at all O_O!! despite being able to pretty regulary out dps my monk friends very often..
(even on last boss went out of my way to ignore mechanics and just focus on dps completely 100% up time and i still lost the dps race lol )
them at all O_O!! im pretty good at sam maybe messing up( like not using my OGCD's the SECOND its available)
the mch gear was also remarkably lower then mine. is sam in a bad spot? is mch op asf now o-o?
Is Mch the new Blm?
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08-20-2019, 05:39 PMVieteIs Mch the new Blm?
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08-20-2019, 05:54 PMRoyalBeef
MCH has a pretty sick opener if everything is off cooldown. It even out and eventually reverses the longer a fight goes on. Boss fights in dungeons are short, so it's easier to stay on top DPS than for 10 minute Primal fights.
During Seriyu farm I DPS raced for fun with a SAM, until phase transition I had no problems being above them, but after that I couldn't keep up and they would always come out on top in the end. Unless we had a BLM, they just obliterate everything and everyone lol -
08-20-2019, 05:57 PMBarretOblivion
No, MCH has really good AoE now and does pretty decent damage but is 3rd in the DPS charts, once you start raiding MNK is the 2nd highest DPS. BLM is still the king.
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08-20-2019, 05:59 PMMhaeric
DPS rankings are not constant across levels. Many jobs which are at the bottom of the ranking in DPS output during savage raids are amazing at lower levels. Red Mage and Dancer, for example. These two jobs are almost always at the top of the list of DPS in 24-player raids. Machinist and Black Mage both happen to be good at both right now. It all depends on their AoE rotations, and how dependent they are on their higher level abilities to reach their potential.
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08-20-2019, 06:42 PMViete
Ah I see so it sorta depends on the fight and how much time is in between for cool downs and such?, and so if monk is 2nd in raids and Blm is king where is sam?
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08-20-2019, 06:50 PMMhaeric
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08-20-2019, 07:21 PMLastelli
I don't want to be mean, but if you really had better gear than the MCH on your SAM and you were heavily outdps'd, than you probably have to rethink your rotation. I recommend you take a look at the balance discord.
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08-20-2019, 07:23 PMDrayos
It could be a problem in several places really. SAM is higher dps on logs tho. But yes I’d recommend looking into the balance discord, they will provide you with guides which will help u out.
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08-20-2019, 08:23 PMVietethats why i thought it was odd my rota is the mathematical optimal rotation >.< thus my confusion...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastelli
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08-20-2019, 08:34 PMMyon88
If by blm you mean, 'does barely more rdps than its ranged counterparts', and 'doesn't even beat drg and mnk in personal dps despite being a selfish job' blm , then I guess yes, mch is the new 'blm'.
https://i.imgur.com/95K9K7r.png
Low level content on the other hand is a different story. Job restructuring and potencies never account for how the job will play at low levels, so it's not uncommon for things to be unbalanced there. When red mage came out, it was the king of low level content because no other job had spammable 300 potency gcds as early as satasha. Jobs like dancer, machinist or drg are now in that position because their post-Shadowbringers potencies are way out of line with what you would expect to see at low levels. -
08-20-2019, 08:44 PMVieteoh wow... idk much bout end game yet, but this seems unbalanced? :sQuote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
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08-20-2019, 09:02 PMDrayosIt’s because we are only just into SBs the jobs haven’t rly been visited yet after introduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viete
It’s getting fixed in 5.08 / 5.1 and yes different jobs get different things, some adding more dps then others at various levels.
So during the levelling process things can feel whacky -
08-21-2019, 07:16 AMksuyen
MNK - BLM - DRG - SAM <-----------------600dps----------------> anything else.
What it should be:
All DPS jobs <-------------600dps------------->Tank/Healers -
08-21-2019, 08:46 AMBarretOblivionWell great, now you just made BLM/SAM/MCH dead jobs and we go back to SB meta where its just. PAD PAD PAD PAD PAD. Group buffs be the most important thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ksuyen
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08-21-2019, 09:51 AMSigiriaThere are some jobs that does need balancing for their intended role, but otherwise it's not that wildly unbalanced, on most percentile the gap between all dps jobs is under 2k dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viete
Most jobs that are on the top of the list are the ones with more restrictions, melee have positionals WS and lose dps anytime they have to back away from their target. Mages have cast time, BLM being the one the most affected by it and need a good planning of your movement to keep casting, moving without a proc or an instant cast ready is a huge dps loss for BLM.
On the other hand ranged have no positionals, no cast time and don't lose dps from being away from their target. The lower dps is the trade-off for that convenience. The skill ceiling for the role is lower but it's easier to get a decent dps.
Jobs that are undertunned are: NIN, even with rDPS is way too far behind other melees. SAM is behind other melee for no reason. DNC is the same deal as nin, their support have been overestimated and their damage undertuned as a result compared to the two other ranged dps. RDM and SMN could still use a boost, they keep getting punished really hard for their ability to raise and their decent mobility. -
08-21-2019, 11:02 AMDoozer
There's definitely some people that are just Bad. I don't bother with more challenging content because I have no one to do it with and don't like doing stressful content with strangers, but pretty much every time I play MCH I have the highest DPS, except the one time I was in Dun Scaith when the highest DPS was a different (likely more experienced) MCH. In most content when you see stuff like that happen I reckon it's because everyone that has the potential to out-DPS the MCH is just not optimizing their rotations and stuff. I've out-DPSed people of all jobs but I think it's just because they were bad.
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08-21-2019, 02:08 PMRyuDragnierThat doesn't work for jobs that bring only DPS. That 600DPS wall SHOULD be there for the jobs that bring only DPS or require a lot of effort to keep their damage up. Right now NIN and SMN feel like they should be up there too due to how much work you're putting in, but we'll see how it looks at 5.1 after the changes to NIN (and possibly SMN).Quote:
Originally Posted by ksuyen
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08-21-2019, 03:10 PMDrayosEh, jobs shouldn’t be balanced based on difficulty. And they’re simplifying both jobs in 5.1 so I guess we will see by how much.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
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08-21-2019, 03:19 PMDrayosYeah that won’t work haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by ksuyen
BLM and SAM will need a 1k dps gap to be still competitive against jobs with RDPS buffs. -
08-21-2019, 03:49 PMMisutoraruThisQuote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
Job difficulty should never put in the formula of balancing. It would always assume based on if the job is being use at it full potential -
08-21-2019, 04:18 PMDrayosTbh I’ve never understood the argument this being implemented honestly really would not be fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misutoraru
This information would be brought to the playerbase through streamers and logs, everyone would reroll to the same 2 or 3 jobs.
This would tear diversity out the playerbase and lower the ability of average PFs as people will now be trying to play the hardest job in the hardest content.
Hell if ninja, summoner and BLM were the top 3 dps in the game do u rly believe you’d still see players rolling the other jobs?
This would impact the playerbase negatively. And I rly don’t understand some players desires to want it to happen so badly. -
08-21-2019, 08:10 PMUnrealTai
Honestly in es and titania no one outdamages me while im on mch except for blms, or, a mnk with a dance partner only.
I understand fflogs states otherwise but in my personal experience with 200 runs the above is what happens in random pugs. But tbf im always purple and close to orange too so.
Pretty much what doozer said.
I believe the results on fflogs for mch are not telling the whole story. So you have a ton of mchs on mch not knowing how to use it at 100% bringing its average down. Not “as” true for blm/monk.
Imo mch rotations are wacky and most mchs dont know which skill to use when they get out of sync and fk up their dps. If you know what to do and when at all times mch would be up there with monk.
So ya mch is pretty damn fun.
This is the problem with class tracking dps roles on things like fflogs. If a job has more complexity to it then other jobs, this alone brings dps down due to players overall use of the skills, not the dps of the job itself.
Drg and sam have never out dps’d my mch and are not in the same class as mnk/blm so idk why they keep trying to pad them onto the same level.
Also, this is not class bashing im being realistic, my main is a nin <<<< see under photo. While id obviously prefer nin to be king its not, and mch is inline with monk “if” played right, which is rare compared to other roles. drg/sam have never been close to beating my dps on endgame content so they can stop trying to put themselves there. Dont see me trying to bs my way into nin being top dog or anything.
Another problem with fflogs is people are picking and choosing specific stats to prove their point. You can do that with any role though honestly.
As someone whos done 200 runs I personally attest the above to be as objectional as possible based on “my” experience in those runs. If drg/sam “actually” dpsd better then mch I would simply level them and use them, im not the type of player who is married to one role im married to whichever job has the most potential. Atm its blm, monk, and mch. That is it. Dancer gets an easy in and pass for providing great padding -
08-21-2019, 08:46 PMSeraphor
^ I think it's more that fights like Titania and ES have a lot of mechanics and downtime, which punishes BLM and MNK a lot.
On top of 'learning the job' they also have to learn the fight and change their rotation to accommodate it. It's an entirely extra level of optimization that Ranged DPS don't really need to do.
This effectively raises the difficulty ceiling for BLM and MNK a lot more than jobs like MCH. So the good ones will come out on top, but there will be more 'good' MCH's than 'good' BLM/MNKs.
I've had the same experience as you really, I play BLM (when I'm not DRK) and we have a MCH in our FC 'pseudo static'. Raw damage, like SSS etc. my DPS is fine, but in live situations, the MCH will outdamage me as I've yet to master each fight and proper triple/swiftcast timings and leyline use. -
08-21-2019, 09:22 PMMyon88There is no 'problem' here, you're simply playing with more average players as, well, who else would you find doing extreme primals this late in the expansion?Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrealTai
'Picking and choosing' on the other hand is exactly what you want to do. Not like what you've done which is seek out mediocre players in extreme primals for your anecdotes, but looking at metrics from the upper percentiles of the playerbase in savage because that's the only context where balance matters. And in this context, melees have no issues keeping uptime at all (because they're good players), and their results speak plainly to the disparity in balance between them and the jobs below them.
I mean if you want to look at performance in extreme primals so much, there's plenty of actual data from there too, no need for self reports and anecdotes. Zero in on the people that actually know what they're doing and voila, the exact same dps spectrum you see in savage.
https://i.imgur.com/zi3uuw2.png -
08-21-2019, 09:32 PMRoyalBeefHow many of those 200 runs were kills? I only see confirmed 14 kills, 5 of which are purple, highest being 86 if that is what you mean by "close to orange".Quote:
Originally Posted by UnrealTai
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08-21-2019, 10:59 PMUnrealTai
What you searched for is from only 1 night. Maybe 2.
Most people dont run live reporting all the time, just act, in fact if you look at the top parsers they mostly all only have 1 day of reports as well. Its just not something many people run all the time. You dont have it running more then 2 days either.
So before you go posting something dumb like “14 kills out of 200 maybe” think about that first. Ive been farming it for weapons for multiple jobs since the day it came out and of the 200 salvage is included.
And uh ya that is close to orange, 100s are PADDED, mine are not, theres no ninja debuffs, no drg buffing like the 95+ are. Anything at 85 unpadded is typically a 95+ if padded by other jobs. Also you seem to be missing some if you only see 86 as the highest, its 88.
Your highest is only 80. Are we really going to start that bs now? -
08-22-2019, 05:01 AMMyon88
I'm not sure if you're aware but now that a certain site uses raid dps for rankings and not personal dps, 'padding' no longer really exists as a concept, let alone on a selfish job like machinist.
There's no such a thing as getting a better rank because there was a ninja or dragoon around, because any damage you gained from them is getting added to that ninja and dragoon instead of you. So yeah an 85 isn't really 'a 95+ if padded' in this system, it's a true 85. -
08-22-2019, 11:20 AMIchiExorz
MCH is doing quite a bit of damage but they should do quite a bit more considering they got no DPS utility at all.
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08-22-2019, 02:56 PMRoyalBeefI was asking for clarification since you were talking about 200 runs, not 200 clears, and it only shows 14 clears. Many people believe that bc they're orange on runs that wiped at 50% they would come out orange on a clear, which is obviously not the case since the initial burst dissipates as the fight goes on. So I don't know why you feel personally attacked and try to attack me back. I never went around boasting about my percentiles, so 80 is fine :P Don't be so fragile, if you post data, expect people to analyze it :PQuote:
Originally Posted by UnrealTai