Probably a dumb idea on class balance.

So there is always an argument about utility and dps. I dunno this might have been said before. If not here I go.

Let's look at ranged for example. Let's eliminate all utilities from them. Then give them 3 role skills they can only choose 1 of. 1 would be a group def buff, 1 would be a group attack buff 1 would be emergency heal , regen type. You would prog with def and heal buffs and since all the range can us it ,no one is preferred over the other. Then when you start hitting enrage everyone selects dps group buffs and boom.

How would we differentiate the classes? Easy make every exact class have the exact theoretical dps limit. Let say at pure optimization with not buffs you can hit 11.5-12k. All the classes can meet this limit. What makes them different is the skill level needed to get there. BRD would be the easiest of the 3, with a low APM and low skill cap, DNC would be medium and MCH would be maximum sweaty. The pride comes from not only being able to reach the theoretical cap (minus buffs and pots) but from mastering the class. A MCH who cleared Ultimate is much more BDE than a BRD for example, sure you can clear it with a group of easier classes, but real recognize real right? If I see you cleared with a MCH I know you are dope by virtue of how hard the class is to use. Like I said, real recognizes real.

Before anyone says, well not everyone should be able to do all the content, I mean the limiting factor is the player. If they suck they suck and wont be able to reach the theoretical cap and beat anything. Savage isnt particularly hard so it has no effect there and no one gets into ultimate shit so maybe they would, and those who clear it with the harder classes know what's up. Hell beat it with a BRD and then master it with a MCH, it would make people try different classes once they reach a skill ceiling.

Just figure out how to apply this mentality to casters , tanks and healers. For casters remove the group emergency heal with and emergency raise? Casters would be top DPS in all categories because on top of potential hard APM and rotation they are turrets and ,I belive that skill is worth the damage.

I'm kinda spitballing and would delegate the nitty gritty to the sweaty speed sheet warriors to figure out the potency numbers etc and dots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Let's look at ranged for example. Let's eliminate all utilities from them. Then give them 3 role skills they can only choose 1 of. 1 would be a group def buff, 1 would be a group attack buff 1 would be emergency heal , regen type.

---

There is only one right choice here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

You would prog with def and heal buffs and since all the range can us it ,no one is preferred over the other.

---

And its neither of these two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Just figure out how to apply this mentality to casters , tanks and healers.

---

Rip Melee I guess. lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

There is only one right choice here.



And its neither of these two.



Rip Melee I guess. lmao

---

Damage is not the end all be all of progression or anything to be honest. Unless you have insecurities I can count countless times a extra sheild or or extra health could get us to enrage to learn the whole fight, learning the entire fight front to back is better than 1 peace at time due to wipes. Not to mention you can then make more content more dependent on certain buffs, like alliance raids, heals would be like straight up better than DPS. Also I love straw man counter points, probably the best society has to offer.

No everyone needs a OP job with bigly huge numbers, its screams insecurity and a measuring stick with no real depth.

Real recognizes real.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Probably a dumb idea on class balance.

---

Yes, it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Damage is not the end all be all of progression or anything to be honest.

---

It kind of is though. Yes extra heals or more tankyness could help in prog but no would would take them over more damage. Oare damage means faster fight which lead to getting through phases faster and seeing more of the fight faster.

Party utility should just be restricted to damage mitigation (tank utility) and HP/MP recovery (healer utility). No utility from DPS (or less effective versions of the other roles' utilities) and every job works on its own offensive capability in different ways.

I am looking at it as utility as in what it actually means, a utility knife is primarily for cutting but can do other functions, not as well but good enough in a pinch. A utility vehicle is the same.

So when I think utility for a tank, I thing giving it a party wide damage buff. They heal and mitigate damage already, give them something they dont do already. Give all DPS a heal so you arent shoe horned into taking one class. Give DPS casters a DEF buff , give healers.. something I dunno haha. You see what I mean tho? Utility is adding a tertiary function outside of your primary one. Make them selectable so you can use them in many different scenarios.

Also damage is not the end all be all, you dont need to have absolute raw power to see the fight faster, the limiting factor is time and survivability. You spend time doing it and increase survivability, get to enrage constantly and swap out the buffs for DMG ones.

This would eliminate support classes and end the debate of how much dps NIN should do, or DNC. As said in my orginal statement it makes personal performance matter. It gives everyone a support skill. It eliminates meta, and it forces people to be good at the class they choose to play and the only gate keeping is you. Especially if you can prove all the classes can reach the exact same DPS number.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

No utility from DPS (or less effective versions of the other roles' utilities) and every job works on its own offensive capability in different ways.

---

So you think that making DPS classes pretty much all the same thing just with different animations is a good thing? That's boring ngl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

So you think that making DPS classes pretty much all the same thing just with different animations is a good thing? That's boring ngl.

---

Ninja without its utility still plays differently than Samurai. They're not pretty much the same thing with just different animation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

… I can count countless times...

---

o.O

No, really, though. I think I understand you wanting to add utility to classes. But it seems this particular way of doing it just waters down the jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Damage is not the end all be all of progression or anything to be honest.

---

You might think that, but the people who are interested in savage content will take a 1% DPS buff over 10% mitigation, or a 100 potency regen for DPS. I know I would.

The only way to make mitigation, or regen, favorable over DPS is to make the DPS buff crap, and make the regen/mitigation buff OP.

Quicker kills = less healing = less damage taken

Due to the mentality of this playerbase that DPS is more important than anything, that would never work. Look at all the healers who are complaining because DPS is now boring, at the DPS with utility who are complaining because they feel they don't do enough damage. Such an idea cannot work just due to player mentality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Due to the mentality of this playerbase that DPS is more important than anything, that would never work. Look at all the healers who are complaining because DPS is now boring, at the DPS with utility who are complaining because they feel they don't do enough damage. Such an idea cannot work just due to player mentality.

---

If SE wanted to stop this mentality they should stop making scripted fights where a healer is only needed because of auto-attacks, AOE damage, and tank busters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Due to the mentality of this playerbase that DPS is more important than anything, that would never work. Look at all the healers who are complaining because DPS is now boring, at the DPS with utility who are complaining because they feel they don't do enough damage. Such an idea cannot work just due to player mentality.

---

Lets see... the vast majority of incoming damage is scripted, making it quite easy to plan out the heals, leaving a lot of down time to use 1 dot, and then either one instant cast or one hard cast dps spell.

Lets try taking all the dps classes damage abilities and simplify them into 5 buttons. 1 aoe, 2 for single target, 1 class specific, and one buff or dot ability. How long do you think it would be for all the DPS players to be up in arms about things being boring?

Its not that DPS is everything, its knowing that the longer a fight drags on, the more mistakes add up, and eventually lead to failure. You have heard of wars of attrition right? Over time resources do run out, be it something visible like healer mp, or something invisible like a players ability to focus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

If SE wanted to stop this mentality they should stop making scripted fights where a healer is only needed because of auto-attacks, AOE damage, and tank busters.

---

I'd personally love to see more non-scripted fights, but I don't trust the playerbase to adjust to it well. Remember pre-nerf Pharos Sirius, pre-nerf Ampador Keep, and pre-nerf Steps of Faith. The playerbase will try to get nerfed anything it perceives as too hard, which quite a few already see several scripted fights as being. Remember they also tried to get Yoshi-P to nerf Final Steps of Faith and Royal Menagerie. Non-scripted fights would make people around here scream even worse to have those non-scripted fights nerfed into the ground.

Every attack that a dead enemy cannot make is one less bit of damage that needs to be healed or mitigated. Ergo, DPS = mitigation.

Also big no in general to slottable role actions. We just got rid of them and for good reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Damage is not the end all be all of progression or anything to be honest. Unless you have insecurities I can count countless times a extra sheild or or extra health could get us to enrage to learn the whole fight, learning the entire fight front to back is better than 1 peace at time due to wipes. Not to mention you can then make more content more dependent on certain buffs, like alliance raids, heals would be like straight up better than DPS. Also I love straw man counter points, probably the best society has to offer.

No everyone needs a OP job with bigly huge numbers, its screams insecurity and a measuring stick with no real depth.

Real recognizes real.

---

Yeah, when you're in an Ex training party that's still wiping to mechanics in phase 1 and some genius goes "dps is low". Dude, no one cares about DPS, we didn't even see 2/3 of the fight yet xD Don't be that guy ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Lets see... the vast majority of incoming damage is scripted, making it quite easy to plan out the heals, leaving a lot of down time to use 1 dot, and then either one instant cast or one hard cast dps spell.

Lets try taking all the dps classes damage abilities and simplify them into 5 buttons. 1 aoe, 2 for single target, 1 class specific, and one buff or dot ability. How long do you think it would be for all the DPS players to be up in arms about things being boring?

Its not that DPS is everything, its knowing that the longer a fight drags on, the more mistakes add up, and eventually lead to failure. You have heard of wars of attrition right? Over time resources do run out, be it something visible like healer mp, or something invisible like a players ability to focus.

---

DPS is mostly "everything" with the way encounters have been designed since heavensward. Basically all bosses are DPS checks with positional mechanics players need to handle to their best abilities while maintaining uptime. But this wasn't always the case. Back in ARR the game was more balanced. Some encounters were a challenge to tank due to tanking mechanics (eg T5 with the snakes to aggro asap before they killed someone), healing mechanics (titan hard used to hit very hard at the beginning) or DPS making use of their utility (DPS having to kite adds during T7). But it was deemed too complicated so now we re trapped with fights that have simplistic mechanics in their concept (Everything is about avoiding AOE, soaking and looking in a particular direction) but have tight DPS requirements (and now with a lot of raid AoEs), with almost no adds on encounters and where the only difference between a good and a bad tank is the amount of DPS dealt. Honestly this is very sad.

Look at eden savage, it is all about positionals, raid AOEs so healers don't fall asleep and DPS checks. Now just go run all of the coil of bahamut with min ilvl requirement (if you didn't complete it back in they day) and come honestly tell me the design wasn't different back then.

I feel like the devs are misunderstanding people’s preoccupation with DPS numbers and intentionally designing future content to require pretty much only DPS. And of course, the result is that jobs become highly oversimplified when they all exist solely to deal direct damage( *cough* Bard *cough* ).

The devs release content where DPS is the only thing that will ever matter, then players naturally become focused on DPS because they want to succeed, them the devs see this as ‘players only want to dps’, and release content where nothing else matters. It’s like an endless cycle.

Surely there are ways to add DPS without just relying on basic direct damage attacks. Raid support is the main one, but it’s either all been moved to the one job (Dancer), removed from everything else (except Melee), or given such a heavy DPS tax that nobody wants it (Red Mage).

They’ve tried to address the whole ‘DPS is everything’ mentality that they created intentionally by simplifying every job so it only has to consider DPS outputs.

I think the class balance issues would be solved by giving jobs that are supposed to ‘support’ the party meaningful ways to contribute that haven’t been watered down to the point they’re not worth taking, without just falling back on the ‘lol potency increases to dps’ which honestly is a little lazy in my opinion.

Lastly I don’t think it’s accurate to say defensive abilities can’t contribute to overall raid DPS. Using Bard as an example because the remaining support is has left is almost purely defensive. Nature’s Minne can allow the healers to replace an GCD with an oGCD or just leave it to regens/Minne/shields, creating a DPS gain for healers. Warden’s Paean removes the need for Esuna, saving healers a GCD and removing the potential DPS loss of the status ailment (depending on what it is). Troubadour is self explanatory, less AoE healing = more healer DPS. The only reason nobody cares about these abilities for their support effects is because they’re all on long cooldowns that essentially makes the potential DPS gain redundant (can’t add much healer damage if you can only support them once every 45/90/120 seconds).

Basically, class balance is kinda messed up, they have jobs that are supposed to ‘support the party’ but their personal DPS is too low for that support to be worthwhile. Either that, or the support is oversimplified and made very limited use so that players can focus on personal DPS, meaning that it doesn’t add anything particularly valuable. I think that in trying to simplify every job so maximum personal DPS is easier to achieve, they’ve completely neglected the jobs who were never there for their personal DPS in the first place. Which has resulted in the balancing issues we have now. DPS is definitely more important than anything they will ever add in battle content, invariably, but that doesn’t mean they can’t think of interesting ways to contribute to it outside of just ‘deals’ damage

That is the complete opposite of balance. Why should an easy to play job do the same amount of damage as a difficult job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stanelis

DPS is mostly "everything" with the way encounters have been designed since heavensward. Basically all bosses are DPS checks with positional mechanics players need to handle to their best abilities while maintaining uptime. But this wasn't always the case. Back in ARR the game was more balanced. Some encounters were a challenge to tank due to tanking mechanics (eg T5 with the snakes to aggro asap before they killed someone), healing mechanics (titan hard used to hit very hard at the beginning) or DPS making use of their utility (DPS having to kite adds during T7). But it was deemed too complicated so now we re trapped with fights that have simplistic mechanics in their concept (Everything is about avoiding AOE, soaking and looking in a particular direction) but have tight DPS requirements (and now with a lot of raid AoEs), with almost no adds on encounters and where the only difference between a good and a bad tank is the amount of DPS dealt. Honestly this is very sad.

Look at eden savage, it is all about positionals, raid AOEs so healers don't fall asleep and DPS checks. Now just go run all of the coil of bahamut with min ilvl requirement (if you didn't complete it back in they day) and come honestly tell me the design wasn't different back then.

---

This is also why I say that I don't trust the playerbase. I ran a lot of this back when it was hard, and enjoyed how much work we had to put into things to get clears (I personally was on the CC duty). But too many people complained it was too hard to DPS while doing this stuff (along with many things from ARR) and so we got these dumbed down raids. People say the encounters are the ones encouraging this mindset for DPS is everything, but the playerbase was the cause of it to begin with for refusing to adapt and get better to where they could do these things. Anybody who believes otherwise should look at that old thread asking for nerfs to Royal Menagerie, which mechanically was about as difficult as an Alexander Creator 8-man normal raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

If SE wanted to stop this mentality they should stop making scripted fights where a healer is only needed because of auto-attacks, AOE damage, and tank busters.

---

Would you prefer non-scripted attacks where the boss randomly utilizes all of its damage abilities (including tank-busters and party-killing attacks)?

All combat is scripted in this genre of games to make it consistent, or else some parties would get by with no problem (with the boss stuck doing auto-attacks because RNG), while other groups would wipe constantly to constant high-damage attacks with no respite, because RNG.

Hmmm... Perhaps that should be a duty-finder option when queuing? "Non-scripted, randomized Boss attacks". Same thing for the trash mobs too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

That is the complete opposite of balance. Why should an easy to play job do the same amount of damage as a difficult job.

---

Define 'easy to play job', given that everyone is pretty much limited by the GCD/oGCD attack cycle.

As an example, Bard had a plethora of buttons to push in a relatively complex priority-list all the way through two expansions, but did way less damage than jobs with a much simpler rotation.

DPS trumping everything else isn't so much a mentality, as it is an verifiable, objective advantage over every other option.


The only place this discussion has any relevancy is in Savage and Ultimate. Since everything else is easily clearable in complete PUGs (also, I'll admit it's an Ultimate only consideration since Savage is easily cleared in PUGs). When you have players performing at an Ultimate level, that extra health, shield, or healing is completely unnecessary, because those players will not make mistakes consistently that would necessitate it (and, further, on kill pulls (not wipe pulls), those kind of mistakes are non-existent). What does garner an advantage in that environment? More DPS. Boss dies sooner. Adds die sooner. Difficult mechanics are breezed through faster.


This is why the idea is silly. There is only one answer: more DPS. You may think that extra health or shield helps you out on a given pull, but that was never going to be a kill; because if you're making mistakes that leads you to think you want that, you're not gonna kill the boss on the only difficulty where your decision matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Define 'easy to play job', given that everyone is pretty much limited by the GCD/oGCD attack cycle.

As an example, Bard had a plethora of buttons to push in a relatively complex priority-list all the way through two expansions, but did way less damage than jobs with a much simpler rotation.

---

Red Mage vs Summoner, for one. Red Mage is completely brain dead to play at an acceptable level, and nobody can change my mind on that. Compare it to Summoner, which has a rotation that is literally giving people hand cramps. Why should Red Mage do more damage than a Summoner? Give me one good reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Red Mage vs Summoner, for one. Red Mage is completely brain dead to play at an acceptable level, and nobody can change my mind on that. Compare it to Summoner, which has a rotation that is literally giving people hand cramps. Why should Red Mage do more damage than a Summoner? Give me one good reason.

---

I play both. Haven't really noticed that Red Mage is completely brain dead to play. Can't speak to the damage either, as the Red Mage is still stuck in the mid-50s. The game play of Summoner is more like that of Bard in that the priority-list can be relatively complex. I'm used to that after more than four years of playing it. I suspect for me it is now what you might call brain dead to play, whereas I have to pay attention with the Red Mage.

Can't give you a good reason behind damage, but then again, why should the relatively simpler Black Mage do more damage? Or the 'strictly by the book" rotation of the Dragoon? Heck, why doesn't Bard do more damage as a DPS than any other DPS, given its complexity. I suspect the answer is that (a) you don't do damage in an instance if you can't pay attention to mechanics and end up dead (b) complexity of play style appeals to people who don't really care if they do 500 less damage per second in the instances where they hang out (c) some jobs appear to do more damage because they have more highly skilled players setting the trend for 'DPS of the expansion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Red Mage vs Summoner, for one. Red Mage is completely brain dead to play at an acceptable level, and nobody can change my mind on that. Compare it to Summoner, which has a rotation that is literally giving people hand cramps. Why should Red Mage do more damage than a Summoner? Give me one good reason.

---

Red Mage does not do more damage than Summoner.


https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=99


I've chosen the 99th percentile to eliminate the discrepancies between player skill levels. Whether it is raid DPS or adjusted DPS Summoner comes out on top of Red Mage.


Edit: Also, in more general terms, the "X is relatively more complicated to play and therefore should do more DPS" is really an archaic design philosophy. To start: in no modern MMO is any spec "complex." There are just not enough buttons to justify such a stance. The game is more diverse and enjoyable if every spec is competitive, and not because spec X has a few more oGCDs to weave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Red Mage does not do more damage than Summoner.

---

that's what this topic is suggesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mistyregions

How would we differentiate the classes? Easy make every exact class have the exact theoretical dps limit.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

I play both. Haven't really noticed that Red Mage is completely brain dead to play. Can't speak to the damage either, as the Red Mage is still stuck in the mid-50s.

---

Probably not your topic until you've at least played both at level cap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eli85

Red Mage does not do more damage than Summoner.


https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=99


I've chosen the 99th percentile to eliminate the discrepancies between player skill levels. Whether it is raid DPS or adjusted DPS Summoner comes out on top of Red Mage.


Edit: Also, in more general terms, the "X is relatively more complicated to play and therefore should do more DPS" is really an archaic design philosophy. To start: in no modern MMO is any spec "complex." There are just not enough buttons to justify such a stance. The game is more diverse and enjoyable if every spec is competitive, and not because spec X has a few more oGCDs to weave.

---

I never said it did, I'm talking in context of the OP's suggestion.