*Spoilers* Do we have "Creation Magic?"

Despite the quest in which we are informed that we have no potential for creation (presumably because of our comparatively diminutive aether reserves), I have to wonder if we might actually be capable of creation magics. Take, for example, the relative ease with which we conjure forth primals in the First, or the creation of Ardbert's axe in the final confrontation with Emet Selch at the end of SHB's main story. We literally shape aether into a physical and concrete creature or item with only our limited reserve of aether to prevent it from becoming truly real and permanent.

In Amaurot the shades inform us that creation magic is as natural as breathing, and the WOL certainly seems to put little thought into the mechanics of what they are doing when they form such creations. While the primals may merit a dismissal as a form of "summoning," Ardbert's axe is decidedly not summoned, and retains form and mass for a while after we use it. Doesn't this imply that we have, to some degree, manifested creation magic as described by the shades of Amaurot and Emet-Selch?
I'm genuinely curious about what others think of this, please, what are your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Kith_Whulfth

Despite the quest in which we are informed that we have no potential for creation (presumably because of our comparatively diminutive aether reserves), I have to wonder if we might actually be capable of creation magics. Take, for example, the relative ease with which we conjure forth primals in the First, or the creation of Ardbert's axe in the final confrontation with Emet Selch at the end of SHB's main story. We literally shape aether into a physical and concrete creature or item with only our limited reserve of aether to prevent it from becoming truly real and permanent.

In Amaurot the shades inform us that creation magic is as natural as breathing, and the WOL certainly seems to put little thought into the mechanics of what they are doing when they form such creations. While the primals may merit a dismissal as a form of "summoning," Ardbert's axe is decidedly not summoned, and retains form and mass for a while after we use it. Doesn't this imply that we have, to some degree, manifested creation magic as described by the shades of Amaurot and Emet-Selch?
I'm genuinely curious about what others think of this, please, what are your thoughts?

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I'll ask the fundamental question: If we are unable to use an ability, then what does it matter if we possess the ability?

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Originally Posted by Edax

I'll ask the fundamental question: If we are unable to use an ability, then what does it matter if we possess the ability?

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I'll point out that during one of the side quests we were given a concept template for robes and a few lightning crystals (or clusters, I don't recall which) and our only issue with making the robes was that we didn't know how to use the template and creation magic. It would seem that while our personal capacity for aether is insufficient, a simple handful of crystals is supposedly enough to compensate. In fact, the fact that summoning is described by the ascians as a form of creation magic, which we witness being used in the Akadaemia Anyder final boss cutscene.

So, if we do possess the ability, we might actually be able to use it.

Heck, given the animations for the crafting classes, we might already be using a corrupted or diluted form of creation magic already, but that could just be due to game mechanics and limitations in the game engine.

Definitely the wrong spot for this, but
I'd like them to let us fight the Twelve of Eorzea. They say from the get go that they are essentially primals. So preez let us fight them. I have a grudge against Althyk for absolutely no reason

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Originally Posted by Kith_Whulfth

I'll point out that during one of the side quests we were given a concept template for robes and a few lightning crystals (or clusters, I don't recall which) and our only issue with making the robes was that we didn't know how to use the template and creation magic. It would seem that while our personal capacity for aether is insufficient, a simple handful of crystals is supposedly enough to compensate. In fact, the fact that summoning is described by the ascians as a form of creation magic, which we witness being used in the Akadaemia Anyder final boss cutscene.

So, if we do possess the ability, we might actually be able to use it.

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But notably the Ancient shade didn't make the robe for us. Perhaps it was incapable due to the nature of being a reflection. As for Akadaemia Anyder, I'm not sure if what is happening in that duty is even "real". Is the boss actually being summoned? If it is a recreation of events, when what causes that boss to appear? What powers it?

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Originally Posted by Kith_Whulfth

Heck, given the animations for the crafting classes, we might already be using a corrupted or diluted form of creation magic already, but that could just be due to game mechanics and limitations in the game engine.

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I think it's the latter because there's no fundamental explanation why grilling a hot dog requires aether from fire crystals when a plain heat source should be able to suffice.

Our Crafting is like a lite version of creation magic.
We seem to be unable to create things from pure aether, maybe just because of the lack of enough aether, but we seem to be able to transform materials and aether in form of shards, crystals or clusters into other things.

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Originally Posted by Edax

As for Akadaemia Anyder, I'm not sure if what is happening in that duty is even "real". Is the boss actually being summoned? If it is a recreation of events, when what causes that boss to appear? What powers it?

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It's a recreation of events. Basically the whole city is one giant primal. Think of Dream Zanarkand. Its tangible, but its form is willed into existence by energy dreams and prayer. Just like Zanarkand, when its summoner(s) die, it too will fade...

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It's a recreation of events. Basically the whole city is one giant primal. Think of Dream Zanarkand. Its tangible, but its form is willed into existence by energy dreams and prayer. Just like Zanarkand, when its summoner(s) die, it too will fade...

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So what is actually creating Quetzalcoatl? Emet? The Ancient Shade that died? Amaurot?

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Originally Posted by Edax

So what is actually creating Quetzalcoatl? Emet? The Ancient Shade that died? Amaurot?

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I believe that Emet Selch imbuned the shades with just enough "self" to function as the actual Amaurotine citizens without actually being "alive." Therefore, the shade tried to summon a "guardian" using the same techniques that an actual scholar from the Akadaemia might. That being said, the Quetzalcoatl we fought was a far cry from the Primals that we've seen before in recent expansions, and this might be due to the shade lacking the aether of an actual living being, let alone that of a true Ancient. In other words, Emet Selch's enchantment is technically an act of creation magic (if incomplete or even half-hearted) and therefore the shade would technically have enough free will and aether to perform a somewhat lesser summoning.

I'll even go so far as to point out that Quetzalcoatl as we faced in the dungeon is far more potent than Ifrit when faced unsync'd on hard mode, meaning it's actually quite a potent creation when compared to the summoned Primals we face in ARR. After all, the shade we meet in the story (whose name eludes me right now) tells us that Emet Selch created them to give the illusion of the city as he remembered it. Emet Selch even went so far as to give these shades personalities and the ability to argue with each other without Emet Selch being there to see it. The shades are not truly alive, but they may as well be, and therefore have the force of will necessary to create or summon just as the beast tribes of the Source.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Our Crafting is like a lite version of creation magic.
We seem to be unable to create things from pure aether, maybe just because of the lack of enough aether, but we seem to be able to transform materials and aether in form of shards, crystals or clusters into other things.

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The new level 72 crafting skill, "Reuse", seems like we may be starting to tap back into it. We're still not creating original works wholesale out of raw aether but making exact duplicates of rare esoteric materials isn't that shabby.

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Originally Posted by Kith_Whulfth

I believe that Emet Selch imbuned the shades with just enough "self" to function as the actual Amaurotine citizens without actually being "alive." Therefore, the shade tried to summon a "guardian" using the same techniques that an actual scholar from the Akadaemia might. That being said, the Quetzalcoatl we fought was a far cry from the Primals that we've seen before in recent expansions, and this might be due to the shade lacking the aether of an actual living being, let alone that of a true Ancient. In other words, Emet Selch's enchantment is technically an act of creation magic (if incomplete or even half-hearted) and therefore the shade would technically have enough free will and aether to perform a somewhat lesser summoning.

I'll even go so far as to point out that Quetzalcoatl as we faced in the dungeon is far more potent than Ifrit when faced unsync'd on hard mode, meaning it's actually quite a potent creation when compared to the summoned Primals we face in ARR. After all, the shade we meet in the story (whose name eludes me right now) tells us that Emet Selch created them to give the illusion of the city as he remembered it. Emet Selch even went so far as to give these shades personalities and the ability to argue with each other without Emet Selch being there to see it. The shades are not truly alive, but they may as well be, and therefore have the force of will necessary to create or summon just as the beast tribes of the Source.

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Then again, the only reason that shade of an Amaurotine tried to summon Quetzalcoatl was because they were trying to contain the chaos from all the experimental subjects being freed by Archaeotania. Which, if we follow this logic, was also created by Emet-Selch.

So Emet-Selch created the Akademia Anyder, populated it with Amaurotine researchers, populated it with dangerous experimental subjects, included a phantomological monster from "over the seas" that was smart enough to escape and cause a mass breakout, and allowed the simulacra of Amaurotines to panic and run away and die, while the simulacrum of Archaeotania could escape into the greater Tempest and terrorize the local Ondo.

It's an alarmingly long way to go for verisimilitude, I think.

Creation Magick is the process of transforming Aether into matter, shaped only by the will of the user. There's no violation of physical principles because we know from in game lore that all things are made up of aether. In a sense it parallels our own physical world where all matter is energy when you look at it from a quantum scale, hence why mass can be turned into energy and vice versa (laws of thermodynamics). Since all things in FFXIV are made up of (not just contain) aether, its a simple matter for an Amaurotine to use their own internal aether stores to create matter from nothing. The matter comes from their own bodies, which again has vast stores of aether.

Now, crafting is the act of using aether stored in an elemental crystal to power/aid your synthesis. The heat provided to melt the iron ingots or boil the water or liquify gold, etc, the wind to help shear the fabric, the earth to add pressure or force to your hammer, ice to cool and condense reagents and reactions, lightning to carve, split, or divide objects, you get the picture. The mass is provided in the recipe, the crystals are catalysts of energy to aid the proccess, but we are still shaping items based on knowledge and using our own tools to craft. It's not like FFXI "synthesis" which was a form of creation magic. In FFXI you throw ingredients and materials into the air, activate a relevant elemental crystal, and the think of a mental image of the finished product, and shortly after the finished product poofs into existence. In that world, your "synthesis skill" for each craft was a measure of how focused your mental images of the finished product were and not so much your actual skills with a doming hammer or carpenter's saw are like in XIV.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

...while the simulacrum of Archaeotania could escape into the greater Tempest and terrorize the local Ondo.

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I could be wrong but I thought Archaeotania had been in legends for quite some time in Ondo Tradition and not just a recent occurrence? If I am correct, then it would be that the real Archaeotania has been living in the oceans of the Tempest for thousands of years, since before the sundering. That would make sense given that on the source, Archeotania (who probably died during one of the calamities) would be the monster that sparked myths of Leviathan to the Saghin. So on the Source, legends of Archeotania were corrupted over thousands of years to become Leviathan, Lord of the Whorl, and on the First Archeotania never perished because there was never any calamities, so it survived intact to pester the Ondo.


Also I think it was interesting that Archeotania used some techniques like Megaflare and Gigaflare. I wonder if it inspired the primal Bahamut similar to how Shinryu was a primal that was inspired by Midgardsrmr.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Creation Magick is the process of transforming Aether into matter, shaped only by the will of the user.

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Side note, but this (transforming aether into matter, and back again) is exactly how Omega is described to work, and I am hoping dearly for there to be some reference to that. It would be so cool to have the characters compare the two methods of Creation Magick and Omega Synthesis.

(Realistically I suspect the writers will just go "it's too troublesome to explain, don't think about it too hard", but I can still hope.)

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I could be wrong but I thought Archaeotania had been in legends for quite some time in Ondo Tradition and not just a recent occurrence? If I am correct, then it would be that the real Archaeotania has been living in the oceans of the Tempest for thousands of years, since before the sundering. That would make sense given that on the source, Archeotania (who probably died during one of the calamities) would be the monster that sparked myths of Leviathan to the Saghin. So on the Source, legends of Archeotania were corrupted over thousands of years to become Leviathan, Lord of the Whorl, and on the First Archeotania never perished because there was never any calamities, so it survived intact to pester the Ondo.


Also I think it was interesting that Archeotania used some techniques like Megaflare and Gigaflare. I wonder if it inspired the primal Bahamut similar to how Shinryu was a primal that was inspired by Midgardsrmr.

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You could be right; I've never had the occasion to do the Archaeotania FATE series, so all I know about it are the fact that the FATE series exists, and the Akademia Anyder unlock quest dialogue.

Then again, if Archaeotania pre-dates the Sundering, I wonder why it seems to have survived twelve thousand years on the First, but the Source doesn't seem to have one, and possibly only survives as a Primal myth. Does it count as a "fragmented" existence? Does the existence of Midgardsormr's brood on the Source have anything to do with Archaeotania's absence?

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Then again, if Archaeotania pre-dates the Sundering, I wonder why it seems to have survived twelve thousand years on the First, but the Source doesn't seem to have one, and possibly only survives as a Primal myth. Does it count as a "fragmented" existence? Does the existence of Midgardsormr's brood on the Source have anything to do with Archaeotania's absence?

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Considering the number of calamities the world has gone through which even drove the Sahagin from the deeps to have to nest at an island I think its safe to say that the Archaeotania died in one of the calamities.

Yes. We (and everyone else for that matter) still have Creation Magic. That is what summoning a Primal is. It's just that we have so little aether now as an individual that the aether for Creation Magic also has to come from somewhere else. Like aether crystals.

On a smaller scale, Arcanists are more then likely making use of Creation Magic to summon Carbuncles, Fairies and Egis. Arcanisim at its core is all about using math and geometry to shape aether into the same shape every single time. That's what all those diagrams in grimiores and codexes are. What seems to differ is what math/geometry the different summons are based off of. Carbuncles use the math/geometry of gemstones. Fairies are somehow created sentient beings that are housed in the various Scholar soul stones. Egis and Demis are based on the math/geometry of a defeated primal. Which is itself a product of creation magic.

For that matter, the Anima quest is also this. We literally end up making a sentient soul out of various forms of aether for the purpose of helping us in battle. The soul even compares itself to the primals as an example of what it needs to watch out for since it too is an aetherial creation created for one goal.

What seems to differ between Carbuncles, Fairies, Egis/Demis and the Anima when compared to Primals is the scale of the summoner/creator verses the scale of the created being. Carbuncles, Fairies, Egis and the Anima all have less aether then an individual person has. Primals have more aether then an individual person has. And it's when something created with Creation Magic has more aether then an individual does that the problems with Tempering seem to come into play most often.

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Originally Posted by Kith_Whulfth

I'll point out that during one of the side quests we were given a concept template for robes and a few lightning crystals (or clusters, I don't recall which) and our only issue with making the robes was that we didn't know how to use the template and creation magic. It would seem that while our personal capacity for aether is insufficient, a simple handful of crystals is supposedly enough to compensate. In fact, the fact that summoning is described by the ascians as a form of creation magic, which we witness being used in the Akadaemia Anyder final boss cutscene.

So, if we do possess the ability, we might actually be able to use it.

Heck, given the animations for the crafting classes, we might already be using a corrupted or diluted form of creation magic already, but that could just be due to game mechanics and limitations in the game engine.

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At the same time that NPC (at least in German) states quite clearly that he has never seen someone with such low amount of that magic, even in children. So I guess we cant really use the real one. Also do we know if that crafting is not just something everyone can do? In the end Hydealyn seemingly never took away abilities, she just split them thus made them less powerful. So it makes sense that everyone that once was an Ancient one has the power still in them but weak enough to not be able to do something big with it.

Also even beast tribes can summon primals with enough crystals. So seemingly the whole difference is just the amount of crystals someone needs to do stuff. Ysayle for example only needed her own crystal do transform, while the tribes need more.

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Originally Posted by TankHunter678

Considering the number of calamities the world has gone through which even drove the Sahagin from the deeps to have to nest at an island I think its safe to say that the Archaeotania died in one of the calamities.

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Yeah, I think there was discussion in various places about how convenient the Calamities are with regards to Source vs Shard differences. Twelve thousand years is nothing geologically speaking, so any similarities can be explained as that, but the Calamities were (possibly deliberately) unspecified in their scope, so any differences in geography could also be explained by those. Especially with the "shattering continents" of the Fourth Calamity (ie the Crystal Tower one), which implies some sort of change in landmass.

Greg summoned Enkidu with a fleeting thought from a bunch of fire crystals, with no knowledge of summoning. Perhaps he too is a WoL, maybe driven insane by traveling the void. But he uses the same black energy portal teleportation magick that Ascians use.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Greg summoned Enkidu with a fleeting thought from a bunch of fire crystals, with no knowledge of summoning. Perhaps he too is a WoL, maybe driven insane by traveling the void. But he uses the same black energy portal teleportation magick that Ascians use.

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Greg is from beyond the rift, rules don't apply to him. Especially if you believe that all versions of Gilgamesh (except for FFXV) are the same, just from different points in time.

The 60-70 Dark Knight quest line also pretty good indicator that we do too.