Physical Ranged TANK

While I've said this many times before, I feel 5.0 is the best iteration of "tanking" to allow this. (Not to be confused with "caster tank")

To make this easier to follow, I'm going to reference DNC.
This new "tank" partners with another person (just so happens, DNC was given such a mechanic in 5.0)
But unlike DNC, its locked to DPS jobs only. (With no effect on Tank/Healer roles)
Unlike DNC, there are 2 possible buffs to use for "partnering".
Similar to AST with its sects, you pick one, and the partner, only 1 can be active, and u cant change it once the fight starts.

They both add: Massive Threat added to all actions the target does, and -20% damage taken.
Depending on which one you pick, they can either:
(1) Remove all positional requirements, and raise defense/HP based on YOUR defense/HP.
(2) Prevent interruptions from damage taken, and raise def/HP based on YOUR stats, by a bit more than the other stance. EDIT: forgot to add "Some AoE spells only have a 0.5s cast time. (not the GCD, and Flare might only be reduced to 2.5s which is a DPS increase still)
Death does not remove the buff for either of you.

Im sure you're seeing where this is going.
You turn someone else into the tank.

For 4 man dungeons, turning a caster into a tank is more than fine.
For 8 man content, this makes it a bit trickier, better off picking the melee DPS. (but should be possible)

When partnered, any mitigation buffs you apply to yourself, instead apply to your partner. (it also never actually applies to you while partnered)
Rampart/Sheltron/Sentinel equivalents, all go to your partner. (doesnt require a target)

While partnered, the effect of provoke directs the threat increase to your partner, instead of yourself.
(Shirk remains the same)

EDIT: forgot to mention invulnerability. Your partners HP can no longer go below your current HP while under the effect. (If you die, then they can die. If you're at 2,436 hp, then they cant drop below 2,436)

EDIT: I had this in mind, but don't want people to actually see this, until after they have an opinion on the job first. So only highlight if you have thought about it already. (I cant figure out how to use spoilers since [SPOILER] doesnt work.) >Like DNC, the partner buff also raises their personal DPS a tiny bit. Lets say 2%-5%. This of course means the personal DPS of the new tank job would be less to make up for it. But this is to encourage DPS to want to volunteer for the role, since their DPS would be going up.<

This was technically possible for 2.0-4.0, but had a few hurdles to deal with, regarding tank stances. But with the changes, this is all but too easy to implement now.
I know we will never get another tank ever again, but this is a decent middle ground for SE. People who want the quicker queues of tanks, but want to feel like they are playing a DPS can role this tank.
This is of course the main gimmick, this doesnt include what playstyle the job would be given.
(Even with the gimmick, this is nearly a copy of what tanks already do.)
I'm sure more people would absolutely HATE being a DPS in a group, and being stuck as the partner in a 4man dungeon.
But I find that unexpected turn rather exciting personally. Sometimes i WISH I was tanking, when im leveling a DPS, just due to issues with my current tank.
What does everyone else think? Would you hate being on the receiving end too much to like this job?;)
(Personally I'd imagine quite a few DPS players switching to this job, just so they are guaranteed not to be the one pulling. Making DPS queues a lot shorter haha.)

I like the concept a lot, but I imagine you might run into awkward situations in dungeons where both of the DPS don't want to be the stand in 'tank' especially if its say a SMN and BLM.

I'd imagine it would be the same as with any boss fight where DPS need to volunteer for mechanics/tasks, and they are all suddenly quite, waiting for another DPS to sign up.
Which is, someone else assigns them the job, and they try to do it anyways.
It's possible they might leave the group, but I personally don't think they would.

Over all, communication should always be the goal of the game. Not turning our brains off, and watching netflix as we play.
So I would see a few people afraid to do it, but after they see all responsibility pretty much goes to the tank using CDs, and the healer keeping them up, they wont be as nervous, and no longer be an issue after a few days of such a job being released. (Which wouldnt happen anyways. More of a fun idea.)

As for the caster thing, I forgot a part about lowering cast times on AoEs. I still need to make another adjustment about the stance I forgot about as well.

Sounds like a glorified cover tank with a lot of inherent problems.

Main one being that people who don't want to play tank probably aren't going to like having to tank when they get randomly matched up with it.

Eh.. It's a neat idea, and probably about the only way a tank could ever actually be "ranged", but just doesn't seem like something we need. And really, you're effectively making it possible to have a 3rd tank in content to cheese mechanics (I don't what mechanics could be cheesed, but people are great at figuring that stuff out)

Quote:

---

EDIT: forgot to mention invulnerability. Your partners HP can no longer go below your current HP while under the effect. (If you die, then they can die. If you're at 2,436 hp, then they cant drop below 2,436)

---

And this is kind of problematic considering that if the partner is the one taking the damage, and not the "tank", then they are effectively permanently invulnerable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Sounds like a glorified cover tank with a lot of inherent problems.

Main one being that people who don't want to play tank probably aren't going to like having to tank when they get randomly matched up with it.

---

From a "gameplay" perspective, its perfect. But from a playerbase perspective, its annoying.
Which I feel is plenty fine. Most players find boss AoEs annoying, as it ruins stacks/casts/uptime.
Having a challenge be presented, and overcame, even if its as simple as an orange circle on the ground, is within range of acceptability, as long as it functions correctly from a gameplay perspective.
granted, if you argue its ok to annoy your player, thats another argument, as some players feel games should be easier, or more catered to their interests, which isnt "wrong", but does come with its downsides by doing so.

So I'm in agreement people will be annoyed, but I'm curious to go a step further, and think of what all that entails, both good and bad.

Title is misleading...

I thought this would be about an actual ranged tank, like the Wildstar Engineer that used a plasma rifle and bots (think of the MCH).

But instead this is some weird idea about forcing a role switch on another player. This kind of class would end up a prim candidate for vote kicks. I suspect everytime people saw one they’d stand at the door and refuse to budge until the timer had moved enough and they could vote it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makeda

Title is misleading...

I thought this would be about an actual ranged tank, like the Wildstar Engineer that used a plasma rifle and bots (think of the MCH).

But instead this is some weird idea about forcing a role switch on another player. This kind of class would end up a prim candidate for vote kicks. I suspect everytime people saw one they’d stand at the door and refuse to budge until the timer had moved enough and they could vote it out.

---

Same. I could see a decoy tank "working" but this sort of reminds me of "tag, youre it!" Of course, with a decoy tank and this games combat, that would be difficult i would think. Although... yeah, pretty much would make it hard for things like positioning, among other things. I did think at one time though it'd be interesting to have a tank that could split/hold boss in place and wander off to grab adds, but thatd just make 2 tanking less viable, so,,,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makeda

This kind of class would end up a prim candidate for vote kicks. I suspect everytime people saw one they’d stand at the door and refuse to budge until the timer had moved enough and they could vote it out.

---

Interesting. Since this is only hypothetical, and no one can be punished for it, would anyone here actually vote kick out such a job? Would anyone here leave group? Its hard to imagine it would be "that bad" to be partnered, since you hardly change up your rotation.

Quote:

---

Title is misleading...
I thought this would be about an actual ranged tank, like the Wildstar Engineer that used a plasma rifle and bots (think of the MCH).
But instead this is some weird idea about forcing a role switch on another player.

---

I've mentioned that type of tank plenty, but most people have already thought it before. So this type was more about something I never hear anyone talking about.
As for saying its misleading, thats sorta incorrect, but it takes a LONG time to explain why.

Lets pretend we make a new MMO.
its only DPS and Healers.

We have DPS who focus on AoE, and DPS who focus on single target. (some old MMOs did this, and 2.0 sorta did this)
We have healers who focus on AoE, and some on single target.

But, what if the single target healer was limited to ONLY selecting themselves? To compensate, they get MORE potency.
So they heal 100 potency per GCD.
The other AoE healer heals 50 potency per GCD.
A boss would deal 150 potency per attack (GCD)
and does 50 potency per raide wide attack.

essentially this "healer" would be a tank, by players standards.

Now what about a game where we had 0 heals. only mitigation buffs like rampart.
The AoE mitigation user does -25% dmg taken, and the self targeting one uses a -50% dmg taken.
the raid can survive X number of raid wide attacks.
so the DPS check isnt an enrage, but how long mitigation lasts, until HP is 0. (since there is no heals.)
This self mitigator would be considered the tank.

Mitigation and healing serve the same role in a RPG.
Just as melee DPS and ranged DPS are technically serving the same role.

I thought, what if we reverse the two? what if the self mitigator targeted others instead (Ramparts the party), and the AoE healer was self healing only (constantly equilibriums themselves)?
Which of the 2 is considered the tank, and which is considered the healer?
In short, the self healer doesnt fully work in FFXIV, but the role of "Mitigate dmg, so the healer can keep up heals, and protect the group" still applies to this job.
It would still be a tank, and fulfill its function in every situation.

The stereotypical Knight with a shield isnt the only way to define tank.
(But I'm still all for the Wildstar engineer btw!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaraD_

From a "gameplay" perspective, its perfect. But from a playerbase perspective, its annoying.
Which I feel is plenty fine. Most players find boss AoEs annoying, as it ruins stacks/casts/uptime.
Having a challenge be presented, and overcame, even if its as simple as an orange circle on the ground, is within range of acceptability, as long as it functions correctly from a gameplay perspective.
granted, if you argue its ok to annoy your player, thats another argument, as some players feel games should be easier, or more catered to their interests, which isnt "wrong", but does come with its downsides by doing so.

So I'm in agreement people will be annoyed, but I'm curious to go a step further, and think of what all that entails, both good and bad.

---

It's a stretch to call the gameplay perfect, you haven't defined much about it's gameplay at all aside from it acting as a role swapper. I mean, if you have to resort to throwing DPS buffs on people to make it look more attractive.. It should sell itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaraD_

Interesting. Since this is only hypothetical, and no one can be punished for it, would anyone here actually vote kick out such a job? Would anyone here leave group? Its hard to imagine it would be "that bad" to be partnered, since you hardly change up your rotation.

---

Absolutely. When I queue up as a DPS it's because I want a break from tanking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's a stretch to call the gameplay perfect, you haven't defined much about it's gameplay at all aside from it acting as a role swapper.

---

The phrasing is a bit hard for me to articulate in this case, when i said gameplay, i more so mean the gimmick. Obviously we havent touched on the gameplay. But let's pretend it a 1to1 in DPS rotation/abilities, and CD use of another tank, like GNB.
If you feel GNB isnt perfect, then which ever tank you feel is the closest to perfect. (The word "perfect" is an exaggeration, but meant to get across the idea that the gimmick lacks any serious flaw in its ability to function in content.) Obviously im not saying it SHOULD be a clone of said tank, just to use for testing out the gimmick.

Quote:

---

I mean, if you have to resort to throwing DPS buffs on people to make it look more attractive.. It should sell itself.

---

This statement is true, but I'd like to clarify first, this only applies to OTHER groups of people wanting to bring the job along. In an EX party, would groups forbid such a job to come? I think its possible, but some are desperate for tanks.
As for the second part, the job can sell itself to those who want to play it, regardless of this buff.
So I think its good to clarify you mean those who would want, or not want, to invite it to parties. Not those who would or wouldnt want to play it.

Quote:

---

Absolutely. When I queue up as a DPS it's because I want a break from tanking.

---

Technically you could have that very thing by BEING this job. Of course, you cant play as it forever, and sometimes you're trying to level up other stuff.

EDIT: I think if the group hasnt actually fought any mobs yet, its easily provable the job was kicked for being said job.
Unlike other scenarios where you need to see text talking about it.
So not only is it reportable, it would be bannable.
(The answer would be to pull mobs until times up, then kick. To which, I think most players would just keep going if there's no issues with the 1st bit of the dungeon being already over. but I could be wrong)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaraD_

Interesting. Since this is only hypothetical, and no one can be punished for it, would anyone here actually vote kick out such a job? Would anyone here leave group? Its hard to imagine it would be "that bad" to be partnered, since you hardly change up your rotation.

---

The issue isn't related to rotations, it's related to positioning. As the target of aggro, the tank's job is to make sure the boss and/or adds are positioned correctly during fights - turned away from the rest of the group to avoid cleaves, moved in the right ways to handle certain mechanics (the poison puddles in Brayflox come to mind), keeping the boss still the rest of the time so melee can hit positionals, etc. With this suggestion, you've now made that duty the job of a DPS player who may never have tanked before in their lives and have no idea what they're doing, or a player who does tank but signed up as a DPS specifically because they didn't feel like tanking. Unless the mechanic is made entirely optional (and by that, I mean the DPS can actually mechanically reject the responsibility and not just expecting "no i don't want to" in chat, otherwise it opens the mechanic up to abuse), this would be highly unpleasant to a lot of DPS players, since it would feel like the tank player foisting off their responsibilities on someone else while still benefiting from tank queues and such. And that's not even getting to the fact that you've now got to do your DPS rotation on top of this responsibility, and DPS rotations are generally more complex and involved than tank rotations specifically because tanks have those extra responsibilities to worry about in fights.

And if the mechanic is wholly optional, it now effectively becomes a gimmick rather than an important part of the class, at which point you'd be best just making it a limited job - and we've seen the uproar surrounding the idea of limited jobs, so that wouldn't be terribly well received either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraph522

And that's not even getting to the fact that you've now got to do your DPS rotation on top of this responsibility, and DPS rotations are generally more complex and involved than tank rotations specifically because tanks have those extra responsibilities to worry about in fights.

---

I of course meant the mechanics werent abusable. But with the part quoted above, I feel this is the bigger issue. Boss fights that require repositioning.
As it leads to downtime on DPS.
If slapped on a physical ranged DPS, it wouldnt really hinder DPS. for a melee, they would have to run out of melee range, to move bosses, if the distance is far enough. For caster, the obvious.

It IS more work for them, BUT I feel this is only an issue under 2 circumstances. (1) 4man, where its not a big enough deal, since bosses are easy enough to solo half the time, or at least duo. (2) EX mode primals, where people might get paired with double of these tanks, or an all caster group. EX primals are the range in which content is hard enough you dont want this, but not as hard as savage, where you'd never have let it happen in the 1st place.
So its more akin to what happened in 2.0-4.0 where people wanted NIN BRD so badly, they left spots in PF groups, dedicated for those roles. In a similar fashion, either wanting certain roles to work with the tank, or excluding it. And since yoshida tried to remove that with 5.0, I would see that as a bit of an issue. Personally find it within acceptance, but I would agree, its not good enough on its own to work. So I'd have to rethink it up. (which of course im now coming up with an alternative, which I feel is technically good enough of a fix, but leads to a different discussion I'll save for later.)

Thanks, this helps me fine tune the idea further. (Of course its a waste of time, but I love the challenge.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MaraD_

This statement is true, but I'd like to clarify first, this only applies to OTHER groups of people wanting to bring the job along. In an EX party, would groups forbid such a job to come? I think its possible, but some are desperate for tanks.
As for the second part, the job can sell itself to those who want to play it, regardless of this buff.
So I think its good to clarify you mean those who would want, or not want, to invite it to parties. Not those who would or wouldnt want to play it.

Technically you could have that very thing by BEING this job. Of course, you cant play as it forever, and sometimes you're trying to level up other stuff.

EDIT: I think if the group hasnt actually fought any mobs yet, its easily provable the job was kicked for being said job.
Unlike other scenarios where you need to see text talking about it.
So not only is it reportable, it would be bannable.
(The answer would be to pull mobs until times up, then kick. To which, I think most players would just keep going if there's no issues with the 1st bit of the dungeon being already over. but I could be wrong)

---

It's just not really a good design, it's interesting, but not good. You expect when a tank shows up that they'll be tanking, not abdicating that role to someone else in the party. Yes, you may really really really be excited to play this style, but it's a group game so you need 3 or 7 other people who also want to play that style. And if they don't want to then you really can't compel them to. Reporting for vote kick abuse or not. Worst case they just drop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

you may really really really be excited to play this style

---

Technically I dont want to play it funny enough.
I just find it interesting. I'd rather be the actual person taking the hits.
But I love trying to think up new ways to do tanking/healing mechanics. (And im never really interested in new ways to DPS, despite how little variation there is of that, even if its more than variation of tanking/healing.)
EDIT: Id rather be the target of such a tank, but since I have little to no mitigation options on most jobs, it wouldnt feel enough different from being a DPS in solo play.

Interesting idea and I'd certainly like some diversity because we've got 4 tanks with slashing type weapons and 1-2-3 combos, but yeah as others pointed out a cover tank would create situations where other players do not want to assume the tank role. They want to play the style they signed up for.

I think the next tank (if there is one) should probably be the last tank this game gets, and the most unique they could go would be DoM tank casting psychic barriers around self but still fighting at melee range. If it has to be DoW style then please no more slashing weapons lol, anything different. Blunt pulverising club or mace might be ok or some kind gun-greatshield, a two-handed large shield that can boom.

Won't work because certain mechanics target certain roles, and if you can change/alter roles by selecting who you want the tank to be, it's going to get very weird.

A ranged tank who could use pets the way beastmaster in ff11 did would be interesting. Have all commands go off on the pet and if it dies it goes right after the user who is squishy as any other ranged.

Ranged tank never going to happen in ff14. Why would they spend resources into a "ranged Tank"? there arent many people interested in this, and wouldnt really work without a pet (and wouldnt be a ranged tank anymore), and even then... why??? Its not practical, doenst make sense whatsoever... you want to kit the boss around to "keep the range" and turn the battlefield into a chaotic mess?

no thank you, i rather they spend resources to make the game and the current classes better.

ranged tank...... that maybe (and thats a far one) work on an action game like Tera with a lot of work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ExLegen

Ranged tank never going to happen in ff14. Why would they spend resources into a "ranged Tank"? there arent many people interested in this, and wouldnt really work without a pet (and wouldnt be a ranged tank anymore), and even then... why??? Its not practical, doenst make sense whatsoever... you want to kit the boss around to "keep the range" and turn the battlefield into a chaotic mess?

---

All of this has been addressed.
Pets taking the damage is the most effective way to do it normally. But FFXIV is a game where pet interaction is absolutely horrible. So the "pet" is now another person, who can interact with bosses effectively.
Also, you're definition of what constitutes a tank is technically incorrect.
as explained here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5130239

people want variation in the roles.
some people loved playing chainmail, mace wielding clerics, and want to heal as something they view as tough and "bad @$$", but we continue to get more wand waving dress healers.
while i may be fine with it, i understand some people would like to be the actual fantasy role they envisioned.
for some people a physical ranged tank would be one. (Im not a fan of it, im more interested in a caster tank, and the elusive melee healer you occasionally see in select few MMOs)
but im aware of people existing who want things outside of the normal. im also aware of those who would love the quick queue of a tank, but to "feel" more like a DPS (and some arguing a support DPS, which this is the DNC of tanks essentially)

plus, we're never going to get another tank. realistically speaking, we'll get a 4th healer, and then SE will wind down with 1 DPS job every so often until the next MMO, and this becomes the back burner MMO that FFXI has become.

I have to say, if this class concept was ever introduced, it would be a great pleasure to make the healer the tank. Let's see if they decide to DPS all the way down to 5% when its their ass on the line :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hezzlocks

I have to say, if this class concept was ever introduced, it would be a great pleasure to make the healer the tank. Let's see if they decide to DPS all the way down to 5% when its their ass on the line :p

---

Honestly, I originally thought it would be broken if you could target another tank, so i excluded tanks, but for some reason excluded healers. Due to issues with BLM tanks, it would be "possible" to make healers tanks, w/o making it too powerful (not adding any real power) or w/o making it "too hard".

So, thinking on what you just said, that sounds hilarious, and quite possible to do xD

Um... Melee DPS have positions to hit, usually at the rear.

People queue into content as a DPS to play DPS, not to tank. If they wanted to tank, they'd play a Tank.

Why? This whole thing reads like a tank-for-players-that-don't-want-to-tank. A literal Blue DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deusteele

A literal Blue DPS.

---

Leave gunbreaker out of this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

Um... Melee DPS have positions to hit, usually at the rear.

---

Yeah, the buff would remove positional requirements for melee DPS. (otherwise this would lead to a DPS loss for the group.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deusteele

Why? This whole thing reads like a tank-for-players-that-don't-want-to-tank. A literal Blue DPS.

---

That was one of the two primary inspirations for this job.
(1) Was how to do a "Pet tank" in FFXIV, due to terrible pet controls, and how mechanics work (in this case, the pet is the other player)
and
(2) How to "get more people to queue as tank" by technically not actually tanking. (and in turn, might actually lower the number of people who queue as DPS, since the only way to avoid being targeted by this job, is to BE this job.)

But as I thought about DNC, and changed to tanks, I realized the actually implemented methods which made this semi joke of a job possible. (Even though its inspiration was a joke, I'd totally make it anyways.)

To answer your question, I would be pretty annoyed if I were dps and they added a job that forced me into a role that I didn't queue for. That would mean I would be responsible for keeping the boss positioned properly (which is the tanks job) on top of my "more complicated than tank" dps rotation that's already hard enough to focus on. This job would be the ultimate wet dream for lazy tanks.

However I think this would have been a nice viable job in raids back before stances were removed. It would make it so the high dps tanks like warrior could be in deliverance, and depending on how it was done could actually make tank swaps completely trivial. It's a cool idea albeit kinda irrelevant at this point since the regular tanks could just tank the damn things themselves without worrying about losing benefits from a "dps stance". However I think it would still be a very cool option for a dps class to provide, essentially being a tank support job.

On the topic of ranged tanks, I think they could just give that role to GNB. If you leave melee range all your attacks become ranged and it could share some of MCH old animations that were removed. It would allow them to completely remove Lightning Shot and Rough Divide and would make the job immediately the most unique tank in the game. The only attacks that wouldn't swap to be ranged being AOE rotation and bow shock.

Not sure if it work, but i think if this job exist, it will be too OP since now every party only need 1 tank in their party rather than 2 thank, to main reason of 2 tanks is for tank swap, so if there is a job that can change other job into tank than why bother with it 2 tank while that job can just changing partner after tank swap

Beside forcing an DPS player play a tank role is kind of annoying, i rather have pro tank for hardcore raid than half-baked tank that try to do as much damage as possible because of their parces