Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks.

I know PLD is very strong right now in terms of utility and damage and they pay for that by having 1 less personal mitigation skill. That's understandable. What I think is a bit awkward is how during downtime, where you cannot hit a target, you cannot gain more gauge. This is a bit awkward in places like Eden's Gate: Resurrection because you have a lot of downtime in between phase transitions but since you cannot auto attack, you cannot generate gauge to provide Intervention and Sheltron for the damage from the adds.

For moves like Raw Intuition, Heart of Stone, you simply need time for these skills to be back up in time for damage. During downtime, these skills are resetting. For DRK, you need MP for Blackest Night, however you generate MP during downtime so it's still becoming available for the DRK during downtime.

I hope this suggestion wont make PLD too overpowered compared to the other tanks, I just feel like its weird that there is no way to increase gauge when you cannot hit anything.

Please give me your thoughts!

Well, we all want some little adjustments to our jobs, but so far as live letter goes, they only consider tweaking mitigation skills a little and nothing else.

So they may be a chance they will change paladin a little bit or not at all, i wouldnt count on any changes of pld anyway.

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Can WAR generate beast gauge during downtime? No.
Can GNB generate cartridges during downtime? No.
DRK MP regen is so slow and the cost of abilities is so high that you'd need like 30 seconds of downtime to get 1 skill out, because they can't use Blood Weapon or Carve and Spit (600 mana 60 sec CD...) without a target and even then those abilities are really weak.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Can WAR generate rage during downtime? No.

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False. They can with Infuriate. They can also ignore their gauge with Inner release.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Can GNB generate cartridges during downtime? No.

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True, however the job completely fills its gauge with Bloodfest and also generates gauge faster than any other tank by simply ending their Brutal Shell combo.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

DRK MP regen is so slow and the cost of abilities is so high that you'd need like 30 seconds of downtime to get 1 skill out, because they can't use Blood Weapon or Carve and Spit (600 mana 60 sec CD...) without a target and even then those abilities are really weak.

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The thing with DRK is that they do start encounters at maximum MP and can also remain above 3k MP at any time to ensure they always have The Blackest Night available. Just like WAR, they can also cheat their gauge with Delirium. However, in the case that they do dip below 3k MP, they have things for when a target is present to accelerate their MP gain slightly to help with them getting Blackest Night in time for whatever they need it for.

As for PLD however, you start with 0 gauge. You only gain gauge from auto attacks and it takes 10 auto attacks (21-22.4 seconds) to gain your first 50 gauge. This means that the PLD, for any tank damage early into the fight, will have to pick and choose between Sheltron and intervention unless the damage happens even sooner than 22s, in which case you have to go without a short CD unlike the other tanks.

I think considering how PLD cannot cheat its gauge, or how you cannot built gauge without a target, there should be some other means of building gauge or cheating it to ensure you have the ability to block early on or in a pinch. You can use Passage for the block, sure, but this is assuming you're ok with a single block or ok with losing some damage. By using passage as a personal CD you also forgo the advantage of having two raid shields which then puts you behind one CD from the other tanks. You have a 2 minute personal that you are not using for raid damage that blocks a single hit. It seems silly to rob your team of a raid mitigation tool just for a personal CD, which you can just have your sheltron available instead.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

False. They can with Infuriate. They can also ignore their gauge with Inner release.

True, however the job completely fills its gauge with Bloodfest and also generates gauge faster than any other tank by simply ending their Brutal Shell combo.

The thing with DRK is that they do start encounters at maximum MP and can also remain above 3k MP at any time to ensure they always have The Blackest Night available. Just like WAR, they can also cheat their gauge with Delirium. However, in the case that they do dip below 3k MP, they have things for when a target is present to accelerate their MP gain slightly to help with them getting Blackest Night in time for whatever they need it for.

As for PLD however, you start with 0 gauge. You only gain gauge from auto attacks and it takes 10 auto attacks (21-22.4 seconds) to gain your first 50 gauge. This means that the PLD, for any tank damage early into the fight, will have to pick and choose between Sheltron and intervention unless the damage happens even sooner than 22s, in which case you have to go without a short CD unlike the other tanks.

I think considering how PLD cannot cheat its gauge, or how you cannot built gauge without a target, there should be some other means of building gauge or cheating it to ensure you have the ability to block early on or in a pinch. You can use Passage for the block, sure, but this is assuming you're ok with a single block or ok with losing some damage. By using passage as a personal CD you also forgo the advantage of having two raid shields which then puts you behind one CD from the other tanks. You have a 2 minute personal that you are not using for raid damage that blocks a single hit. It seems silly to rob your team of a raid mitigation tool just for a personal CD, which you can just have your sheltron available instead.

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My ilvl 90 PLD can fill half gauge in 18 seconds not 21-22 like you said so if you want to debate at least be honest with numbers.

PLD have no way of filling the gauge quick but they don't really need it because they have other tools at their disposal.
If you demand a gauge filler I demand a 1200 potency heal without cooldown for all other tanks, a Hollowed Ground type of immunity instead of a trash spell like Superbolide, an 800 potency AoE and a Cover like ability on my GNB.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

My ilvl 90 PLD can fill half gauge in 18 seconds not 21-22 like you said so if you want to debate at least be honest with numbers.

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Then let's talk numbers. Since HW, the vast majority of end game PLD weapons have a recast of 2.24 seconds. This means that as a PLD you will deal an auto attack every 2.24 seconds. The only time this is different is when you deal your first auto attack, which is as soon as you first attack ( or right click) an enemy. if it takes 10 auto attacks to reach 50 gauge, we can do the math as follows: 2.24 x 10 = 22.4. Again, taking account the instant auto attack at the start, it is more like 20-21 ( depending on when the game decides to let you auto) and then 22.4 seconds for every other 50 gauge.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

PLD have no way of filling the gauge quick but they don't really need it because they have other tools at their disposal.

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Except their gauge is tied to their most spammable CD, Sheltron. It's actually a hindrance to PLD's since they cannot use their lower recast CD immediately unlike the other tanks. The other tanks have their gauge tied to damage, which means they don't need to manage gauge in order to mitigate damage. Their cooldowns are just cooldowns or tied to MP like with DRK, which again starts encounters with full MP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

If you demand a gauge filler I demand a 1200 potency heal without cooldown for all other tanks, a Hollowed Ground type of immunity instead of a trash spell like Superbolide, an 800 potency AoE and a Cover like ability on my GNB.

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This is a bit of an interesting response. You're taking into consideration everything else about PLD but not taking into consideration what the other tanks already have. Some consider Clemency to be a detriment because it costs DPS to use the move and it's often not needed. The other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path. None of these cost damage unlike Clemency. Some would also consider Superbolide to be better than Hallowed in some situations and worse in others. I think those two moves are fairly balanced. Confiteor is part of PLD's damage. All tanks have their own ways of doing damage and they all feel different. I have no idea where you were going with this and why it relates to the balance of other tanks. Confiteor is not so much better than what all of the other tanks already have. Tanks getting cover would be cool but ultimately this move is being used a lot less often now that is was nerfed so heavily. Cover is also tied to the gauge so every cover you use is a Sheltron/Intervention lost. It doesn't help that you still have the slowest gauge generation of all tanks.

I don't know about higher level weapons but asuming it's true they have longer recast, 20-22 seconds is still the lowest recast from all tank busters (WAR/GNB are 25 sec, DRK 15 sec 3000 mana), so it's pretty competitive.

Why would you be using Sheltron immediatelly anyways? It isn't a hidrance, you can start a fight with a full gauge and use Sheltron twice, unlike other tanks that will have to wait for the 25 sec cooldown.

Im taking into consideration what other tanks have because you are doing the same, your argument to demand a gauge filler is that other tanks have it. You said "other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path." That is absolutely false.

- Soul Eater = 300 potency, requires vulnerable target, and it's a combo finisher, so 5 seconds total to cast. ---> VS Clemency = 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Brutal Shell = 300 total potency (150 heal+150 shield), requires vulnerable target, 2nd hit combo so 2.3 sec to cast. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Equillibrium = 1200 potency, no target required, instant, 60 second cooldown. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

Clemency is by far the best self sustain spell from all tanks, it's what allows you to finish bosses even if the whole party is dead, no other tank has such privilege. It comes at the cost of damage, yes, but tanks are not DPS, and if you are sustaining urself that means healers can DPS meanwhile, so it's not a big loss.

No one considers Superbolide better than Hollowed Ground because that's straight up stupid. Superbolide is very limited, you can't use it a high HP and if you get stunned when you're low, you will die. And let's not talk about healers raging at you for using it at the wrong time. With HG nothing can go wrong.

The point is, if you wanna demand something other tanks have and you don't, you must accept that other tanks also want what you have and they don't.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

I don't know about higher level weapons but asuming it's true they have longer recast, 20-22 seconds is still the lowest recast from all tank busters (WAR/GNB are 25 sec, DRK 15 sec 3000 mana), so it's pretty competitive.

Why would you be using Sheltron immediatelly anyways? It isn't a hidrance, you can start a fight with a full gauge and use Sheltron twice, unlike other tanks that will have to wait for the 25 sec cooldown.

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Because it is tied to auto attacks. If you cannot actually hit something, you do not gain gauge with then halts your Sheltron "recast". This is what the original post mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Im taking into consideration what other tanks have because you are doing the same, your argument to demand a gauge filler is that other tanks have it. You said "other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path." That is absolutely false.

- Soul Eater = 300 potency, requires vulnerable target, and it's a combo finisher, so 5 seconds total to cast. ---> VS Clemency = 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Brutal Shell = 300 total potency (150 heal+150 shield), requires vulnerable target, 2nd hit combo so 2.3 sec to cast. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Equillibrium = 1200 potency, no target required, instant, 60 second cooldown. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

Clemency is by far the best self sustain spell from all tanks, it's what allows you to finish bosses even if the whole party is dead, no other tank has such privilege. It comes at the cost of damage, yes, but tanks are not DPS, and if you are sustaining urself that means healers can DPS meanwhile, so it's not a big loss.

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So you're going to ignore the benefits of the other tank healing abilities because in your opinion the damage they deal is irrelevant and the only thing that matters is just tanking. That seems very silly to just ignore free healing that you receive by simply doing damage. In that case, PLD is actually one of the best healers in the game because when they Requiestcat, they can heal 5 times in a row for 1800 potency each heal. Who needs Confiteor anyways?

Losing DPS in order to heal is a very serious trade off. Justify it however you like but there is a real cost to Clemency. Just look at the front page for the thread where the healer is complaining at PLD's for using Clemency. If it is not needed it is a DPS loss and no one benefits from a DPS loss. if it is needed then absolutely you should take the DPS loss because it might end up being a DPS gain if someone lives. Weather or not the receiver actually needed that heal is anyone's debate.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

No one considers Superbolide better than Hollowed Ground because that's straight up stupid.

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You can use Superbolide twice in Eden Prime. You can Hallowed ground only a single time in Eden Prime. Does that make Hallowed bad or Superbolide good? Not really because you do two Superbolides and one Hallowed and leave it at that. Point is, one is not better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and that's what keeps them balanced. I did not claim Superbolide to be better, rather it is competitive with Hallowed.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

The point is, if you wanna demand something other tanks have and you don't, you must accept that other tanks also want what you have and they don't.

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What I asked for is for PLD to be able to recharge their Sheltron just like how the other tanks can recharge their short CD's during downtime. Im not asking for a completely brand new cooldown. Im asking to have Sheltron when the other tanks have their short CD after downtime.

Giving Bulwark's effect to Shelltron and then removing gauge generation on blocking has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, ever.

I don't necessarily think they need a cd to reset their resources like the other tanks per se. It's reasonable for PLDs to start instance with half the gauge imo. The only real problem I see with shelltron is when boss has a early tank buster, or during first pull of dungeons. Then again WHM don't have lilies, SCH doesn't have fairy gauge. So eh?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Giving Bulwark's effect to Shelltron and then removing gauge generation on blocking has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, ever.

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Bulwark did not guarantee blocks though. It was also on a 3 minute recast which was the same CD as old Sentinel and Holmgang. The new Sheltron in my opinion is supreme to Bulwark.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

Because it is tied to auto attacks. If you cannot actually hit something, you do not gain gauge with then halts your Sheltron "recast". This is what the original post mentioned.



So you're going to ignore the benefits of the other tank healing abilities because in your opinion the damage they deal is irrelevant and the only thing that matters is just tanking. That seems very silly to just ignore free healing that you receive by simply doing damage. In that case, PLD is actually one of the best healers in the game because when they Requiestcat, they can heal 5 times in a row for 1800 potency each heal. Who needs Confiteor anyways?

Losing DPS in order to heal is a very serious trade off. Justify it however you like but there is a real cost to Clemency. Just look at the front page for the thread where the healer is complaining at PLD's for using Clemency. If it is not needed it is a DPS loss and no one benefits from a DPS loss. if it is needed then absolutely you should take the DPS loss because it might end up being a DPS gain if someone lives. Weather or not the receiver actually needed that heal is anyone's debate.



You can use Superbolide twice in Eden Prime. You can Hallowed ground only a single time in Eden Prime. Does that make Hallowed bad or Superbolide good? Not really because you do two Superbolides and one Hallowed and leave it at that. Point is, one is not better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and that's what keeps them balanced. I did not claim Superbolide to be better, rather it is competitive with Hallowed.



What I asked for is for PLD to be able to recharge their Sheltron just like how the other tanks can recharge their short CD's during downtime. Im not asking for a completely brand new cooldown. Im asking to have Sheltron when the other tanks have their short CD after downtime.

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Seeing as you only care about DPS and don't understand what tanks are here for, I think you should consider playing another role. And by the way, PLD is top 2 DPS for all 4 tanks, only SLIGHTLY behind GNB which has much less utility and survivability.

Superbolide is absolute garbage compared to Hollowed Ground, doesn't matter if you can use it once or twice, it puts an insane amount of stress on your healers and it requires perfect timing, whilst Hollow Ground has no downside. I would gladly trade 60 seconds of a longer cooldown for a much better immunity.

And there you go again not being honest, you never said you wanted Sheltron to be like Raw Intuition (and that wouldn't be viable because then oath gauge would be pointless). You complained about not being able to fill your gauge during downtime using other tanks as example. "Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks."

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Seeing as you only care about DPS and don't understand what tanks are here for, I think you should consider playing another role. And by the way, PLD is top 2 DPS for all 4 tanks, only SLIGHTLY behind GNB which has much less utility and survivability.

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Why are you so irate? I dont think I offended you in any way. Regardless, the change I suggest has nothing to do with damage potencies, rather, it is a minor change to allow for more mitigation. I hope you see the irony in your stance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Superbolide is absolute garbage compared to Hollowed Ground, doesn't matter if you can use it once or twice, it puts an insane amount of stress on your healers and it requires perfect timing, whilst Hollow Ground has no downside. I would gladly trade 60 seconds of a longer cooldown for a much better immunity.

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That's a great opinion. If you dont like the trade off, play PLD since you clearly prefer Hallowed over Superbolide.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

And there you go again not being honest, you never said you wanted Sheltron to be like Raw Intuition (and that wouldn't be viable because then oath gauge would be pointless). You complained about not being able to fill your gauge during downtime using other tanks as example. "Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks."

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Do you even know what you're arguing for at this point? None of your points make sense.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

Why are you so irate? I dont think I offended you in any way. Regardless, the change I suggest has nothing to do with damage potencies, rather, it is a minor change to allow for more mitigation. I hope you see the irony in your stance.



That's a great opinion. If you dont like the trade off, play PLD since you clearly prefer Hallowed over Superbolide.



Do you even know what you're arguing for at this point? None of your points make sense.

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You didn't offend me in any way, nor I did intend to offend you.

About Superbolide, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, and no I won't play PLD because I don't like it, I preffer GNB playstyle even though it has a much weaker immunity. If you think Superbolide so good, go play GNB urself.

First you say that during a very specific raid there is downtime and you don't like that so you wanna be able to fill your gauge without a target (lol), then you talk about Raw Intuition and similar skills as if they were what you desire because you said you don't want more buttons, then you started comparing Soul Eater and other weaker healing skills to Clemency (wtf) which is the most overpowered tank skill ever, along with Hollowed Ground.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, all you see is your own selfish view of a very specific moment you didn't enjoy and then you try to argue why your already ovepowered job should get a buff.

I'm done with this topic.

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You didn't offend me in any way, nor I did intend to offend you.

About Superbolide, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, and no I won't play PLD because I don't like it, I preffer GNB playstyle even though it has a much weaker immunity. If you think Superbolide so good, go play GNB urself.

First you say that during a very specific raid there is downtime and you don't like that so you wanna be able to fill your gauge without a target (lol), then you talk about Raw Intuition and similar skills as if they were what you desire because you said you don't want more buttons, then you started comparing Soul Eater and other weaker healing skills to Clemency (wtf) which is the most overpowered tank skill ever, along with Hollowed Ground.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, all you see is your own selfish view of a very specific moment you didn't enjoy and then you try to argue why your already ovepowered job should get a buff.

I'm done with this topic.

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You seem like youre getting a bit heated, honestly...

I think the main point was, all tanks can start with their short CD mitigation except PLD. If thats fair? Debatable. PLD has 1 less mitigation, but more party utility. I could see it going either way, and wouldnt mind seeing PLD gauge auto-fill to 50 when out of combat. On the flip-side, you get a shelltron every 21 seconds, while I get a heart of stone every 25 seconds. Now Ill always have a heart, you might use your gauge on something besides shell. There are tons of back and forths in this debate, and I doubt allowing a PLD to start with 50 gauge would break the class.

I dont think superbolide is bad, personally. If a healer cant get me to full in 8 seconds without stressing out, I think my party has bigger problems. And with the lower CD, I see it being pretty fine compared to HG.

WAR and DRK are much more stressful on healers, seeing as you can still take damage during your immunity. Especially DRK, if you arent a WHM with benny up.

PLD oath generation is fine.

If you want oath for shelltron during Eden adds just save enough for 50 before the boss disappears.

As for not starting with oath gauge, it's not a big deal to not have shelltron during the first 20 seconds of a fight. You've got other tools to use if you really need them. Hell you could even PoA if there is a tank buster within the first 20 seconds and PoA would prob be up in time for you to use again when you need.

As AbyssDarks says. OP’s suggestion doesn’t exactly make PLD substantially better, nor does the current absence of downtime (and/or out-of-combat) Oath Generation significantly impair the job.

It’s simply a nice little QoL suggestion made more pertinent by say... E1 right now.

I for one would like them to make block/parry effective on critical hits because awareness is gone. :)

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You didn't offend me in any way, nor I did intend to offend you.

About Superbolide, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, and no I won't play PLD because I don't like it, I preffer GNB playstyle even though it has a much weaker immunity. If you think Superbolide so good, go play GNB urself.

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The sheer arrogance of your post is almost unreal. To state an opinion as solid fact and then close out any criticism is willful arrogance and nothing but.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

First you say that during a very specific raid there is downtime and you don't like that so you wanna be able to fill your gauge without a target (lol), then you talk about Raw Intuition and similar skills as if they were what you desire because you said you don't want more buttons, then you started comparing Soul Eater and other weaker healing skills to Clemency (wtf) which is the most overpowered tank skill ever, along with Hollowed Ground.

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Of course I need to bring up the other skills because I would need to make comparisons to make an argument. There is no point in asking for a change without at least providing context, similarities, differences etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Im taking into consideration what other tanks have because you are doing the same, your argument to demand a gauge filler is that other tanks have it. You said "other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path." That is absolutely false.

- Soul Eater = 300 potency, requires vulnerable target, and it's a combo finisher, so 5 seconds total to cast. ---> VS Clemency = 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Brutal Shell = 300 total potency (150 heal+150 shield), requires vulnerable target, 2nd hit combo so 2.3 sec to cast. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Equillibrium = 1200 potency, no target required, instant, 60 second cooldown. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

Clemency is by far the best self sustain spell from all tanks, it's what allows you to finish bosses even if the whole party is dead, no other tank has such privilege. It comes at the cost of damage, yes, but tanks are not DPS, and if you are sustaining urself that means healers can DPS meanwhile, so it's not a big loss.

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As for tank healing, it was literally you who brought up every single heal tanks have and compared it to clemency while closing your ears to anything that has to do with Clemency having a trade off because according to you tanks do not have a responsibility to do DPS since that is not their role. I dont know what content you do, but in any end game content, ALL roles have a responsibility to do damage. If you do not do damage as a tank, you are actively working against your party by not helping to beat the enrage. Does that mean a single clemency will make you see enrage? Absolutely not, but that also doesn't mean you get an excuse to spam clemency when it is 100% not needed.

You also brought up your ilevel 90 PLD and used your own anecdotal evidence and tried to run your personal data as hard fact without using numbers yourself. I even went ahead and gave you numbers since you asked about honest numbers in one of your earlier posts and you then twist the conversation around claiming that it is I who did these things?

Furthermore, there are MANY instances where this scenario applies. In all extreme primals, specifically titania, seiryuu, byakko, ultimates and in raids like Titan Maximum, there are long moments of downtime where you cannot gain gauge. THis game is known for having these pause periods where you cannot hit the boss because the boss is doing some sort of super move.

I probably should not have argued with you when you tried to use evidence from an ilevel 90 PLD but I still gave you the respect. The fact that you can't do the same is telling of your character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, all you see is your own selfish view of a very specific moment you didn't enjoy and then you try to argue why your already ovepowered job should get a buff.

Im done with this topic

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Now there is that irate behavior I mentioned earlier. You make a counter point, completely refuse to listen to the opposing side and then insult others only to abandon the thread when you're not getting your way.

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Originally Posted by CaTi

As AbyssDarks says. OP’s suggestion doesn’t exactly make PLD substantially better, nor does the current absence of downtime (and/or out-of-combat) Oath Generation significantly impair the job.

It’s simply a nice little QoL suggestion made more pertinent by say... E1 right now.

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i'd like to point out that there are more instances than just E1 where you cannot recharge your sheltron due to the enemy not being targettable. If there is one thing SE likes doing, it's not giving you a target for when the boss does their big epic aoe move. I understand you can just hold 50 gauge to have it where you need it but that feels like passing up a sheltron earlier to have it later. It's not THAT big of a deal but it does feel strange.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CaTi

I for one would like them to make block/parry effective on critical hits because awareness is gone. :)

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This honestly should be the case already. I dont even want to imagine the current state of PLD if bosses still had auto attack crits. All short CD tank skills work on critical hits except sheltron since blocking does not mitigate crits.

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Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

PLD oath generation is fine.

If you want oath for shelltron during Eden adds just save enough for 50 before the boss disappears.


As for not starting with oath gauge, it's not a big deal to not have shelltron during the first 20 seconds of a fight. You've got other tools to use if you really need them. Hell you could even PoA if there is a tank buster within the first 20 seconds and PoA would prob be up in time for you to use again when you need.

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That is of course the obvious solution. Passage can indeed work as a single block if need be but this also means trading off your advantage of having two raid mitigators. In some cases, you may need that passage for other aoe damage which then eliminates the possibility of using PoA as a personal CD. Also, by removing a sheltron earlier to have a sheltron later, that means you're giving up mitigation somewhere. Im not entirely sure how I feel about that, but at the same time there is no guarantee to have short CD's available for all possible tank busters across all tanks where PLD can be the one tank that can have two shetrons just 10s in between due to its shorter recast. Still, that demands no sheltron use for 40-44 seconds in order to have that much gauge on standby.

All of these are things that are something you optimize during a fight of course. By allowing for the PLD to generate gauge slightly during downtime this does lessen the need to optimize gauge when first learning encounters or learning where to place mitigation since more is now available in the form of either sheltron, cover or intervention.

You mean like how Holy Spirit used to give 20 gauge? (OMG class mechanic interaction!)

Which may be a little overpowered now that Sheltron lasts 6s, but it could be 10 or 15 gauge instead. Or if SE feels like giving Bulwark back they could rework it into a 10% damage reduction + Sheltron (and Cover) cost 0 gauge during Bulwark.

Paladins can have oath gauge from job actions when dark knights can get black blood from autos.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Paladins can have oath gauge from job actions when dark knights can get black blood from autos.

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Blackblood generation and Oath gauge generation work differently. DRK can either gain more from buffs, cheat it with Delirium or gain 20 from their combos. Their buffs recharge during downtime as well.

This isn't the case for PLD however. There is no way to cheat the Oath gauge. You have to build it via auto attacks but you can't do that without a target. Blackblood doesn't come to a halt during downtime like Oath gauge does.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

You mean like how Holy Spirit used to give 20 gauge? (OMG class mechanic interaction!)

Which may be a little overpowered now that Sheltron lasts 6s, but it could be 10 or 15 gauge instead. Or if SE feels like giving Bulwark back they could rework it into a 10% damage reduction + Sheltron (and Cover) cost 0 gauge during Bulwark.

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Holy Spirit still requires a target, which doesn't solve the issue of PLD being unable to generate gauge during downtime.

I can see Bulwark being a camoflauge clone but I think PLD's mitigation is fine. What makes PLD's skills feel awkward is when the boss is untargettable. You can't generate gauge and depending on the fight you may not have the gauge needed to Sheltron + intervention or Cover + Sheltron or Sheltron into Sheltron. Lot's of your abilities are tied to the oath gauge but if downtime prohibits further generation of the gauge then you become limited in the uses of these abilities.

Probably tack it onto a trait for the wings I guess

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Originally Posted by Saeno

Holy Spirit still requires a target, which doesn't solve the issue of PLD being unable to generate gauge during downtime.

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True, but MP regenerates during downtime, and the Requiescat cooldown still ticks, which then allows Holy Spirit spam to build gauge quickly once the fight starts again. Which yes, I know is not the same, but for me the biggest issue with PLD gauge is that it's essentially passive and needs interactively far more than it needs downtime generation (i.e. as it is we would be better off just having a changed cooldown).

Attaching 25 oath generation to FoF would be a quick and dirty fix for this. The biggest problem I am finding is that in many fights I need sheltron or intervention at the start of the fight before it’s ready. It really annoys me that you cannot have Sheltron ready for the first buster in E3S if you ate first target.

It seems like it would be awkward but I don't really get it. You don't need gauge in the beginning of a fight, just let the other tanks pull. If you're going to need the mitigation after a transition then save it. I mean, if you burned it without really needing it then complain about not having it later.. That's on you, no need to revise the system because you can't figure it out.

The damage is pretty insignificant thus far anyways. Well, it's pretty heavy in Titan, but all the other fights are perfectly scripted to our new CD suite. In Leviathan (at least if you have a WAR to holmgang) then pretty much all of your CDs are available for fluff.

Honestly I just wish Sheltron was on a 20s or 30s cooldown. I mean its already takes that long to generate enough gauge to get it. I am glad they are looking at defensive cooldowns for 5.1

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Attaching 25 oath generation to FoF would be a quick and dirty fix for this. The biggest problem I am finding is that in many fights I need sheltron or intervention at the start of the fight before it’s ready. It really annoys me that you cannot have Sheltron ready for the first buster in E3S if you ate first target.

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I'd just like to point out that Sheltron IS actually available for the first Rip current of Leviathan. You get precisely 50 gauge in time for the tank buster. You can also try it out in Leviathan normal since the tank buster timing is the same.

https://youtu.be/EABDzOIFn5k?t=36

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It seems like it would be awkward but I don't really get it. You don't need gauge in the beginning of a fight, just let the other tanks pull.

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You have the ability to block immediately at the pull with passage of arms. So long as your aoe mitigation is sorted out you should be able to plan for a passage later on while Veil+ co-tank mitigation covers anything in between. Whoever pulls should be determined by strat and tank invul placements.

As for gauge in the beginning, the topic is about generating gauge during downtime, not starting off with 50 gauge just for a block, cover, intervention etc.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

If you're going to need the mitigation after a transition then save it. I mean, if you burned it without really needing it then complain about not having it later.. That's on you, no need to revise the system because you can't figure it out.

The damage is pretty insignificant thus far anyways. Well, it's pretty heavy in Titan, but all the other fights are perfectly scripted to our new CD suite. In Leviathan (at least if you have a WAR to holmgang) then pretty much all of your CDs are available for fluff.

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Leviathan is pretty interesting because you can Hallowed ground the first tank buster which obviously negates any issues with gauge. However, Leviathan does have some small downtime with Maelstrom but your CD's are so plentiful that you can just pop rampart and sheltron for Tidal roar's + auto attacks.

Titan is a fight where you overflow on gauge anyways unless you'd rather spam sheltron for autos.

Burning cooldowns and then not having it when you need it is a problem for any tank. All tanks need to properly plan out cooldowns. This doesn't just apply to PLD you know. What makes it different for PLD is that during downtime phases your gauge halts while other tanks have their short CD's on the ready. You can of course have sheltron where you need it but you may not have generated the gauge you'd like to have intervention, cover, chained sheltron etc. Also, if you're forced to spend gauge before downtime and then require gauge after downtime this of course goes against what you just stated.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Honestly I just wish Sheltron was on a 20s or 30s cooldown. I mean its already takes that long to generate enough gauge to get it. I am glad they are looking at defensive cooldowns for 5.1

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What we have is a trade off. We have a more restrictive way to gain our resources in exchange for being about to use shelltron twice in a row and to save it as if it has a second charge.

I feel like putting it on a regular old CD would be a slight nerf to it tbh.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

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I don't know, it just seems like a solution in search of a problem.

PLD could either have passive gauge generation when in combat, or active generation from attacking enemies. Seems like it would be difficult to have both at the same time, however. Even if we assume they could balance active/passive resource generation to a similar rate as current generation, the only fight it's probably even going to make a difference in is E1S because of it's incredibly long intermission. E2S is 100% uptime, E3S disconnects probably wouldn't be long enough to generate more than 20 or 30 gauge. E4S is another fight with relatively high uptime.

Besides that, there's the fact that no job (that I'm aware of) generates gauge passively, all them are filled by using their various abilities. So do PLD's want to give an ability up in order to gain some sort of Infuriate ability as a replacement? I don't see why PLD should be any exception to this "rule" of gauge generation.

As others have mentioned, it's trade off. You have the ability to use it twice in a row. Or use Sheltron and Intervention at the same time, something the other tanks don't have an option to do with their supports.

So we (PLDs) have a dead ability in Shield Bash still. What if, instead of a weak attack that does a stun, it instead made us auto-block the next incoming attack? It would even still be on the GCD (so we aren't really gaining another defensive ability to use normally), so it's just an "oh shit, I don't have Oath built yet" button. Kind of like Clemency?

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

So we (PLDs) have a dead ability in Shield Bash still. What if, instead of a weak attack that does a stun, it instead made us auto-block the next incoming attack? It would even still be on the GCD (so we aren't really gaining another defensive ability to use normally), so it's just an "oh shit, I don't have Oath built yet" button. Kind of like Clemency?

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No! no you can't have another sheltron. No! Bad!

Late to this but I think it would be nice if PLD gained Oath from shield blocking while Sheltron/Intervention was in use. Now it may seem strange to have an Oath consuming ability regain Oath, but with Oath just being a pseudo recast, I like the idea as it gives some dynamic to resource/action. The more hits you/friendly receive while Sheltron/Intervention'd, the lower the recast of the next use.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Late to this but I think it would be nice if PLD gained Oath from shield blocking while Sheltron/Intervention was in use. Now it may seem strange to have an Oath consuming ability regain Oath, but with Oath just being a pseudo recast, I like the idea as it gives some dynamic to resource/action. The more hits you/friendly receive while Sheltron/Intervention'd, the lower the recast of the next use.

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The problem with this is that you would gain infinite gauge when tanking lots of targets (e.g. dungeon trash) but next to nothing when tanking a single target (e.g. a boss)... it would also make the gauge somewhat RNG based (due to random Blocks) when what it really needs is interaction (similar to what it used to have in 4.X).