I went to ff14 logs... looked at parses for trials and eden raids between 50%-100% max parses and the tanks seem all the same... no job was dominantly at the top or bottom.
Obviously looking at warrior, on some fights they were actually #1 in some areas. The bias part of me would want to see warriors get potency buffs so they can be identified as the "dps tank" but hey... at least they arent stigmatically low on damage like ppl claim they are.
numbers dont lie.... ff14logs has the recordings...things seemed "balanced" in regards to damage done between the 4 tanks.
Tank Damage seems balanced according to FF14 logs
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08-08-2019, 11:05 AMSamuraijakeTank Damage seems balanced according to FF14 logs
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08-08-2019, 02:29 PMMarc-Vigar
I don't know where have you been looking at or if you are being ironic but overall GNB is always on top, followed by PLD.
Tldr: GNB>PLD>>WAR>DRK -
08-08-2019, 02:35 PMDuskane
They are somewhat balance in DPS department
It's not detrimental
Sure warrior and Dark could use a little potency fluff here and there would be nice if Dark had some say what Fray would do
But to no ones surprise the two designed as MT do less than the two designed as OT. -
08-08-2019, 04:00 PMAbsimiliardI would be partial to having Fray mimic whatever we do. Popping him just before delirium spam ensues would make for some amusing results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duskane
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08-08-2019, 04:09 PMBarretOblivion
It... makes no sense honestly that DRK/WAR are dealing less than PLD/GNB. Those two are desgined to be the main tanks which means logically they are holding hate and gaining the most from being MT. Both of them are also the "burst" tanks and yet their burst isn't strong enough to keep their average up with the other tanks with more utility.
Its the same logic as DPS, if you have more utility it would make sense for it to deal less personal dps than one that has 0 utility.
PLD has the most raid wide mitigation with self mitigation that is tied to the job guage and not thier damage.
GNB has great OT capabilities with a regen OGCD and a great OT skill that is always up.
Then you have DRK/WAR which have problems with their designs:
If you don't pop TBN its a waist of DPS as well as limiting to a DRK's dps of needing to always have 3k mana at basically all times, again limiting their DPS.
WAR's Nascent Flash is both the shortest duration as well as weakest of the OT skills with it having a "heal" to it but its too short for it to be significant boon in savage. Finally they also have the lowest APM by a signficant margin making the class overall play/feel poor outside of IR.No. WAR being top on one fight is only because said fight favors WAR because of Holmgang. Right now everyone is undergeared so the tank invulns are very important for clearing. Once we get more geared, PLD/GNB are going to be overtaking those WARs in those fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuraijake
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08-08-2019, 05:54 PMCrater
Tank balance in general is exceptionally good right now. Damage is close enough between the top and bottom that it isn't making a practical difference in party performance. There are multiple specific situations in multiple fights where particular elements of the WAR, DRK, and PLD toolkits make life much easier in a way that gives you that "Damn, I'm glad we're running DRK right now!" feeling for each of those classes. GNB fails to really excel in that specific way, but they edge out the other tanks (slightly) on sustained damage, have respectable burst damage, and are fun to play, so they're not feeling underpowered or underrepresented.
Nothing's perfect and there are, of course, valid complaints about aspects of one class or another, but in terms of tank balance, the game has never been even remotely close to as good as it is right now. -
08-08-2019, 08:52 PMmsoltyspl
All tanks are pretty close, but the differences are clearly visible - across all percentile thresholds: PLD and GNB ahead by slightly larger margin than WAR and DRK. Exceptions apply here and there.
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08-08-2019, 09:07 PMLaunched
Too bad dps isn't the only thing balance is based on. PLD is by far the most played tank in Savage, GNB and DRK are a few thousand clears behind it, and WAR has nearly half the clears that PLD does. Other things like PLD's huge amount of utility actually do matter.
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08-08-2019, 10:36 PMStormbrandWhat matters more is the feel of the class and what new tools they got. Warrior got a few new toys and several of them re use the same animations they had which makes them feel boring. DRK got reworked, GNB is new, and PLD got nothing but great changes that were actually well received. I can’t find a single person happy with the half ass job SE did on the warrior animations leaving them boring to play. Not to mention WAR is without a doubt the easiest tank to play with the least amount of oGCD. Defensively they are strong as always but offensively they feel lacking, not necessarily damage wise but how they feel and look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Launched
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08-09-2019, 12:50 AMTheRealQuah
Feel like WAR should be bottom tbh. Crit scaling means that come 5.2 they will be top and 5.4 well out in front.
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08-09-2019, 02:48 AMBarretOblivionQuote:
Originally Posted by Stormbrand
I would argue WAR only got 2 new 'toys'. Nascent Flash and Mythril Tempest. I personally don't consider the chaos variants anymore than just passives tacted onto Infuriate as they aren't really new skills. (Heck they override Fell Cleave/Decimate Buttons). I do agree however with the lack of oGCDs. It leads to WAR feeling like crap to play outside of IR window. This is coming from a former WAR main. -
08-09-2019, 03:16 AMDyniahttps://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...1045&class=AnyQuote:
Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...1046&class=Any
in titania WAR do more dps
and btw tanks dmg is well balanced, warrior dmg domination has to end sooner or later ... -
08-09-2019, 03:56 AMLeoLupinos
It's balanced.
War have the huge HP regen/leach, making healers DPS more instead of healing them.
DRK has TBN, eating 0 damage and thus making healers DPS more.
GNB and PLD don't have those things. While PLD does have Clemency, its a DPS loss to use it.
I don't really tried GNB to see why it's the highest DPS, so I can't say anything about him.
It's not good to compare them individually. It's complex. It's balanced with the whole team in mind. -
08-09-2019, 04:19 AMArdox
Man I swear.. Grifters see a difference of 0.14 DPS per sec for a specific raid and they already assaulting the devs for a buff..
At 75th percentile
There's on a 2% relative difference between the strongest tank and the weakest one..
Comparing the strongest tank (GNB) with the weakest DPS (DNC) : 64.28%
Comparing the weakest tank (WAR) with the weakest DPS (DNC) : 62.48% -
08-09-2019, 04:25 AMGou_B
I haven't done an updated graph for Eden Savage as 1 week's worth of data would not give us a good sample of tank damage or anyone's damage. I'll let it go on until the end of second week Eden Savage being out to make an updated graph. If we take the high-end damage spectrum to look for normalization within a data sample we can than see a clear representation of variance in any data related subject matter. So, we can clearly see below GNB was ahead for the EX Trials followed by PLD, DRK, and finally WAR.
I also agree with the point above, patches and new gear comes out, with Crit scaling WAR should appropriately move above the ranks.
All in all, the differences on an average basis are very marginal and will never make or break a static comp as of this writing.
https://imgur.com/MJSwjWn
https://imgur.com/jnbhQzp -
08-09-2019, 05:07 AMMarc-VigarI think you should check that again xD GNB is still on top and PLD 2nd, on Titania WAR goes above PLD but still below GNB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynia
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08-09-2019, 08:44 AMBarretOblivion
Im one of what feels like few people that honestly doesn't care too much about DPS anymore on WAR. Let's say WAR will scale better later in the expansion with crit... that doesn't explain the fact that WAR is the least played Tank right now mainly because I would argue they did a very lazy job on 70-80 WAR and shoud be called out for it unamiously.
GNB feels like a completed tank with its own unique high APM style.
PLD improved upon a fantastic foundation created from SB.
DRK got a rework that is indeed decisve but definately plays different to what was a polarizing job in SB.
WAR? What did WAR get? 2 skills. A combo for overpower and a OT skill like all other tanks. Meanwhile it lost the defensive strenght of its tank stance being the only tank swapping to tank stance with many benefits on minor downsides for a short period of time before swapping back again. Its this aspect that personally kept WAR interesting in SB enough for me to stick with a change I did not agree with which was the removal of beserk into the Crit DH playstyle of dumbing down the job.
WAR has a major issue that few can deny. Its down time is long and it SUUUUUUUUUCKS to play during the downtime which is 90% of the time you are playing the job. The only time it comes alive during IR which is indeed a strong feeling but once it tapers off you get what I would argue is a dead job. PLD and GNB have an ebb and flow to their jobs keeping the intesity consistant and active. DRK I won't comment on because I don't play DRK right now. However, WAR straight up feels like the worst tank when you are in the downtime... which is nearly all the time with WAR.
WAR needed a OGCD or two to interact with the job guage more or something to help lighten the down time of the job... but they didn't get that. Instead it feels like it was the last job that SE got to and realized they were about to ship ShB. It doesn't feel finished and honestly felt like it was ignored. -
08-09-2019, 10:06 AMKaedanWith a difference of a few hundred. Which means they are quite well balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar
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08-09-2019, 07:51 PMGreywolfamakir
Tanks are pretty balanced currently.
But for some reason, ppl playing Warrior think that War being Top DPS is a must...I dont see the point, If warrior isn't top DPS, something is wrong...Why? -
08-09-2019, 11:31 PMSoraki-Muppe
The reason for WAR not being played as much right now, and why I will move away from it myself.
In SB the main change was more fell cleaves with auto crit and DH.
Now in ShB it got chaos fell cleaves that use an older animation with minimal changes, yay... so fun, what amazing level of new thinking.
The job is still good, it is just so damn boring to play. I am only playing it during savage until I am good enough at GNB.
And that brings me to why I think WAR is less played then the other tanks.
PLD: Got new and fun things in SB, this was followed by more new and fun things in ShB. The job evolved while not only remaining strong, it actually became stronger and fun to play for PLD mains. If you were a PLD main before you will find enough new that the job feels fresh and fun to play.
GNB: The new tank, it is fast, it is fun, the burst window is filled with different attacks and animations, it is a joy to watch it in action.
Not going to say anything about DRK since I never got into it, not my kinda tank, but clearly not as boring as WAR.
And that is the thing, the other tanks are just more fun to play, to the point that big numbers during burst is not good enough to lure people back to the job. Next expansion WAR will need something new, not just a new version of fell cleave. -
08-10-2019, 01:19 AMosutinI never thought of it this way. Makes a lot of sense. How do you feel about DRK right now? I'm struggling to decide between playing GNB or DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoLupinos
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08-10-2019, 02:10 AMIzsha
People really overestimate how much dps a healer can gain from minor changes in tanking. A lot of healer gcds go into aoe heals and pre tank buster shields. Most actual tank heals are generated by regens, fairies, party heals hitting tanks and ogcd heals. The rest of the time good healers are spamming damage with the vast majority of their gcds already and a lot of heals are already registered as just overheals.
What tank you play has VERY little impact on healers. Every time you do something nifty does not not directly give your healers more dps. We really arent that big of an impact on them once you are playing decently.
Sure if you are a trash tank your healers will cry. But once you meet a respectable level of play in savage, etc, there is very little that makes a difference to healer gcds when the machine is already rolling. What really hurts healer dps are raises.
Edit: just checked this weeks eden 1 clear. My whm.cast ZERO cure 1 or cure 2 spells. Just regens, ogcds, and medica/cure3s. how many more gcds of dps am i going to give him if i used xyz thing when hes already never casting cure gcds? The best way a healer gains more damage gcds is by healing smarter themselves and not relying on big gcd cures in the 1st place. Not if its a war ir a pld tanking. -
08-10-2019, 10:43 AMBarretOblivionThat's true, which is why the complaints about WAR and DRK are so vocal. DRK has its issues but overall seems to play adequately to where tanks are playing DRK more than before in SB it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
WAR meanwhile saw a gigantic drop in population, harsher than any other tank did even with a new Tank introduced. WAR just sucks to play. Its too slow of a playstlye with very and I do mean VERY little room for improving play with WAR. Its no longer impressive with the fell cleave spam when 3/4 tanks now have thier own versions of fell cleave spamming (PLD kinda has it with the sword oath passive with attonement) and one tank that has a very fast paced playstle. Taking away what made WAR unique and sharing it with its competition makes people realize that it straight up is garbage to play compared to all other tanks... it hurts me to admit this as a former WAR main but its true.
All tanks are viable, but the question should be, which tanks are fun to play right now? According to the numbers... WAR is not fun anymore. -
08-10-2019, 01:56 PMIzshaI see no connection between what I was talking about and wars/drks being vocal. Just tired of seeing every thread pop out with "Well X tanks thing is super better more awesome than Y tanks thing because it saves healer GCDs" and that just factually isnt true. Healers that are using lots of cure GCDs are just bad healers (or the tank is horribly undergeared/terribad at basic tank fundamentals). Healers dont need some niche tank thing to be able to DPS almost all the time. Its a fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
As for the FFlogs popularity contest, ive gone over this before in another post but heres the TLDR version.
Before shadowbringers most played tanks:
Pld>War>Drk.
Post ShB:
Gun>Drk>Pld>War.
1. War and pld didnt change much. War was always below pld through all of stormblood so there is no surprise that Pld was more popular in ShB than war. Nothing much changed in either job. Pld still more popular than war. Doesnt really mean anything regarding war. Literally nothing changed here.
2. Gun is virtually guranteed to be the most played tank. It is the hype train. Its new. Its shiny. Its got FF8 fanbois. No Duh its the most popular tank. Doesnt say anything about war sucking. Gun being 1 should surprise no one.
3. Drk got a MAJOR overhaul. Its new. Its shiny. Its got shadow clones the most hyped skill in the trailers and shook the stigma off the job. Not really surprising it got a big jump in popularity. Again nothing surprising or telling about war here.
There is nothing in the popularity contest on FFlogs that says war is BAD. Performance wise its fine. Popularity wise it lost to: A hype train brand spanking new tank, a 'bad' tanks complete overhaul rework, and has literally always been behind pld for the last 2 years and nothing much changed with either pld or war so war maintained its same spot behind pld.
Playrates dont really mean a job is bad or unfun. There is so much that goes into play rates. The fact is someone has to be on the bottom, and it isnt surprising that the 2 tanks that got the smallest makeovers lost out to the new hype of reworks and new jobs.