Eden Savage Loot Drops

I apologize if this has a thread somewhere already.

In a phrase: this change is awful.

For those unfamiliar, Savage loot in the past was job specific. Now in Eden Savage, they've implemented a token system akin to Normal Raids that everyone can Need on. At a glance, this sounds okay - everyone gets an equal chance at attaining something.

What they failed to do, however, is complete the implementation of the Normal Raid loot system and left it where people can win multiple pieces, which creates one huge problem: unlike Normal Raids, you are still LOCKED OUT of rolling on any loot after your first weekly completion.

Statics I imagine wont have a problem with this change, but for pugs a system like this is a waking nightmare. You have ONE 1-in-8 chance of winning a piece of loot you want for an entire week. Those are the worst odds this game has ever presented to us.

This needs patched. Fast. Before the entire Savage community gets real salty.

1 in 8 is not the worst possible chance. As a heal I appreciate the new system. For example getting an acc is 1 in 10 before. 1 in 5 to see it and 1 in 2 to roll against the other heal. Even 1 in 14 for the left side.

I’m speaking mainly from a static perspective, but I like the coffer system. It was really annoying to see caster gear drop all the time when I would be in groups that either 1. Didn’t have casters, or 2. The caster in the party was already BiS, and no one wanted to play the job. This allows for statics to easier prioritize gear for easier progression/faster kills.

For pugging, I’d wager it may seem worse; but, on the other hand, consider when you would PUG and RNG would crap on you anyways and drop 2 fending accessories and a maiming belt from the first floor while you’re a physical ranged, caster, or healer.

Its awful,
before this if you have the dropped piece you are forced to pass,
while it sound bad it actually make other people to have the chance of getting the piece and ensure everyone to get the piece for their main job first.

Now? One person can take up all the loot even of he doesnt need it...

From a static perspective with organized loot
If your DPS you love it
If tank\heal you hate it

Wish it was 2 random drops 2 random coffers

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Its awful,
before this if you have the dropped piece you are forced to pass,
while it sound bad it actually make other people to have the chance of getting the piece and ensure everyone to get the piece for their main job first.

Now? One person can take up all the loot even of he doesnt need it...
Not to mention they decreased the dropped loot...

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They didn’t decrease the number of items that drop, though. E1S drops 3 items (either two accessories, one waist; or one accessory, two waists); E2S drops 2 gear coffers (like it used to drop 2 specific pieces), the weapon tomestone thing, and the accessory upgrade; E3S drops 2 gear coffers (like it used to drop 2 specific pieces of gear), the weapon upgrade item, and the left side upgrade. I’d wager that E4S drops the same as well: a body piece coffer, a weapon coffer, and a specific weapon (plus the mount and the minion, if you didn’t have that from normal mode).

Yeah i misremember, i somehow remember 4 loot for o9s xd edited it like few second before your reply sry

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Originally Posted by Miminming

Its awful,
before this if you have the dropped piece you are forced to pass,
while it sound bad it actually make other people to have the chance of getting the piece and ensure everyone to get the piece for their main job first.

Now? One person can take up all the loot even of he doesnt need it...

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I think this is the main issue; i.e. regardless of the odds the old system felt fairer because when a piece dropped and you were the only one that actually needed it you got it. With the new system actual need has nothing to do with it, it's all RNG, so while your average* odds may be better it feels worse.

* Crazy thing about averages is that there is nothing fair or even about them; if person A gets 9 pieces of loot and person B gets only 1 they still have 5 each on average, which is why pure RNG systems tend to feel terrible even if the odds aren't too bad.

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Originally Posted by Tristann

1 in 8 is not the worst possible chance. As a heal I appreciate the new system. For example getting an acc is 1 in 10 before. 1 in 5 to see it and 1 in 2 to roll against the other heal. Even 1 in 14 for the left side.

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That works for the first week only, it the other healer already have the piece you want, the old chance become 1/5 but it will always stay in 1/8 with the new system. People has full bis set can still get 3 loots for the alts while you waiting for your upgrade for weeks.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

That works for the first week only, it the other healer already have the piece you want, the old chance become 1/5 but it will always stay in 1/8 with the new system. People has full bis set can still get 3 loots for the alts while you waiting for your upgrade for weeks.

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and with that logic, you also have a chance to indefinitely have someone who needs the item you do, rather than in a static, where they get it, and now you have no competition.
So the chances or coming across someone who has the item already, is going to be 10% (for accessory) and probably lower, but I could be wrong, due to being in the fight in the 1st place.

so in this case, this healer had a 10% chance to win with someone who didnt have it, and a 20% chance if they did.
the chance of them having it being 10%, means we increase the chance of 10% by 10%, so... 11%.

An average of 11% with the old system isnt better than the current system, which is 12.5% (a 12% increased chance over the old system)
This system will remain the superior "chance" for both, all the while still being unfavorable for pugs in comparison to statics.

So yeah, let's change it back to the old way, I loved going four weeks seeing nothing but healer or tank drops and having to pass because I'm a caster. I really hate it that now I have a chance to be able to roll on gear every week. I mean seriously... wtf?

3 Weeks 3 levels cleared 0 upgrades feels very good. As someone who RNG hates, this system of always rolling against 8 people who might/might not need the actual gear is horrible. At least before I can move on since its loot other people can roll need on since they don't have it, now anyone can roll for whatever even if they have a piece already and just gearing an alt when people like me trying to get gear to output more damage to clear/clear easier. It would have been better to do a check of jobs in the party and gear that can't be used then lottery drop from the usable items. At the very least reduce the cost of Tomes turn in for items. Just getting very frustrated at getting 0 upgrades and outputting damage almost the same as week 1 savage release. Feels unrewarding on clearing these raids for a tome and won't see a change in gear for weeks; 4 for an acc 6 for some pieces and 8 for legs/body. Definitely not a good feeling and slightly unrewarding.

They should just give 2 pages for anyone who got no item, so it would be detrimental to roll on a item you already have while mitigating bad RNG, but then it would make things too fast I guess...

I can see both sides of the argument here. From the PUG perspective this just feels awful and from a static perspective, it feels great (assuming the group has a system that makes everyone happy). There has to be some kind of middle group that makes PUGs feel a bit better but avoids statics feeling like they have a bunch of wasted gear coming in.

I haven't played WoW in ages, but I do remember that back in the day they went with a token system. The kicker though was that tokens were restricted to specific classes. I wonder if something similar could work for us.

Maybe we split it in in a way that we cover a couple of jobs at once.
Tanks (4)
Physical Ranged + NIN (4)
Casters + Striking (5)
Healers + DRG (4)

or to lower the number of different tokens, it could be
Tanks + DRG (5)
Physical Ranged + NIN + Striking(6)
Healers + Casters (6)

I'll admit it might be overly complex and the first option doesn't fix the problem of tank gear dropping with no-one wanting to gear up a tank, but it could be a possible middle ground.

I have done E1 for 3 weeks and E2 2 weeks, and I have not gotten a single drop in that entire time. I can accept that I'm not getting lucky, but I can't accept the fact that you cannot simply put a 1 item per kill limitation on drops per boss, so one person cannot win everything - including non-gear items. No matter the way the loot system is, it has zero effect on a static saying who can roll on what. All this change does is punish a large portion of your playerbase that pugs, and it is incredibly frustrating. As a whole, it is better than the previous in that gear will never be wasted. Do you really think that people who don't even need the gear won't simply roll need on it, so that they can even gear an alt?

You can get unlucky in pugs and have to wait 6-8 weeks before you can even buy ONE piece of gear from a boss, all because you don't have a static and becasue you've been unlucky. Surely there's something better? Surely you could increase the page drops if you don't obtain loot or something, as has been suggested. A big reason why i play this game is to raid, and if week after week I'm never rewarded for it then it will slowly kill any desire I have to play it, especially the suffering I deal with in the PF lol.

4 weeks of E1s-E3s not a single roll won. This system is the worst possible system for pugs. Been on e4s enrage for 3 weeks but cannot clear due lack of gear. Great for statics. Absolute cancer for puggers.

2 Twines, 1 Solvent, 1 Coating, Feet, Ring, Head
Could be worse

Good for you. Been doing E1-E3 for 4 weeks and just cleared titan I won only 2 Coatings and had to buy a ring to up my dps for Titan clear, sounds fair, sounds good, sounds awesome? How about we take those 2 twines feet ring and head so you can have fun clearing with crafted set?

5th week 0 loot and RNG mitigation is garbage same price for new loot system that's anti pugging give me double page or something for winning nothing each time lol this is making me sick of this game considering how much of a pain some of the reclears are and you're only rewarded with a page for all that pain.

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Originally Posted by mapotofuuu

5th week 0 loot and RNG mitigation is garbage same price for new loot system that's anti pugging give me double page or something for winning nothing each time lol this is making me sick of this game considering how much of a pain some of the reclears are and you're only rewarded with a page for all that pain.

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To be fair, you only had a 1/7 change of getting anything regardless. You would they potentially be competing against a Monk, which adds another layer of RNG. The odds you would have won something by now aren't much higher than with the old system. In fact, during Alphascape, I only saw a single Slaying accessory drop for ten weeks straight from Chaos. Likewise, both I and the Monk in my old static bought our legs because we never saw them every eight weeks.

That isn't to say this new system is perfect. It could use some improvements but it's far superior to the old. My suggestions are as followed...

- You can only win a single Need roll per week. Say you need on all three accessory drops in E1S. If you win say, the Ring coffer. Your subsequent Need rolls on the Earrings and Bracelet are changed to Greed, thereby making it impossible to win two items unless no one else wants them.
- Perhaps offer a token each week you don't win anything. Three of these tokens can be converted into an extra page, thus allowing you to get something one week ahead of someone who did win a coffer.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

To be fair, you only had a 1/7 change of getting anything regardless. You would they potentially be competing against a Monk, which adds another layer of RNG. The odds you would have won something by now aren't much higher than with the old system. In fact, during Alphascape, I only saw a single Slaying accessory drop for ten weeks straight from Chaos. Likewise, both I and the Monk in my old static bought our legs because we never saw them every eight weeks.

That isn't to say this new system is perfect. It could use some improvements but it's far superior to the old. My suggestions are as followed...

- You can only win a single Need roll per week. Say you need on all three accessory drops in E1S. If you win say, the Ring coffer. Your subsequent Need rolls on the Earrings and Bracelet are changed to Greed, thereby making it impossible to win two items unless no one else wants them.
- Perhaps offer a token each week you don't win anything. Three of these tokens can be converted into an extra page, thus allowing you to get something one week ahead of someone who did win a coffer.

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It's only far superior for statics since there won't be someone going "I'm gonna roll for that for my alt please hold on gearing your main" or "I'm just gonna roll for the Lulz" not saying old system is better, but losing gear to said MNK in that system feels better because he didn't have it and actually using it for his job. Now new system you lose gear to someone rolling for alts or just for the lolz. The bunch of us hating the current system not asking for it to be scrapped just improve on the RNG mitigation for the RNG pit that it has increased.

As I'm playing in a static I really like the new system. After 5 weeks of farming Prime-Eden nearly everyone (7 out of 8) has already 3 accessoires (2 from drops, 1 with books). Back in Alpha, that wasn't the case with Chaos at all.

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Originally Posted by mapotofuuu

It's only far superior for statics since there won't be someone going "I'm gonna roll for that for my alt please hold on gearing your main" or "I'm just gonna roll for the Lulz" not saying old system is better, but losing gear to said MNK in that system feels better because he didn't have it and actually using it for his job. Now new system you lose gear to someone rolling for alts or just for the lolz. The bunch of us hating the current system not asking for it to be scrapped just improve on the RNG mitigation for the RNG pit that it has increased.

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Even in a pug setting, it still has merit. If someone wants gear for a second job, they'll simply play said job which puts you back on the 1/7 odds system. What felt worse regardless of pugging it or being in a static is when pieces dropped that no one cared about or were inferior to their tome counterparts. Seeing the i400 Aiming gloves drop week after week was particularly irksome because they were complete trash—so much so it was actually better for Bard and Machinist to just pentameld crafted pieces.

But improving the system is why I call it far superior. Hence my suggestions to help mitigate the issue with pugs while still making it so statics can control gear as they please.

I just got beat out for a weapon coffer that I would have gotten (rolled 80) if there was a system that locked the PLD (who rolled a 99 but ALREADY had both of his 475 sword/shield) out from rolling on the coffer.

Sure, you could argue that they have alternate classes to gear or to just join a static (lol) but, if they wanna gear their alt classes they should just run it as that alt class. I've been stuck with a 450 crafted for weeks and it's really tilting.

The new loot system for savage is absolutely terrible.... it's only good if you are in a static and have rules to ensure everyone gets something. (or using a priority system)

The main problem in pf groups is someone can lot on everything as there is no restriction of how much loot you can get per tier per week.

For example in E4S your job specific weapon can drop so you would lot on that and get it then also lot the coffer weapon and the body and get all 3 even tho you didn't need them, then the next week you can also lot the weapon/body coffer again and again for every secondary job you have even if you don't even have that job lved at 80....

The system is absolutely awful because of this, I've seen players lotting on non-BiS pieces just because they can lot on stuff, it's just a greed fest... yes not every player lots on everything but giving players the option to do so even for secondary jobs they don't even have lved is bad and is poorly thought out by the dev team.

I much prefer the old way where you have to be on the job in the savage tier to be able to need it as it makes it that you have to have that job lved to 80 and geared enough in order to actually do that content on that job to lot for it, nobody should be able to lot for their secondary jobs before someone who hasn't gotten something on their main first, if nobody else needed the piece you then also have a chance to get it for you secondary jobs.


If they decide to continue this loot system for future savage tiers they need to lock it so that you can only get 1 piece of loot per tier per week at the very least. This ensures that everyone has 50% chance to get something if 4 items drop, as it stands you can go 4 weeks and not get anything if you are going into party finder.

I've gone on 8 weeks with no loot from E2S.....Abysmal
The feeling to going in week after week and walking out with nothing.

At the current rate, I reckon it'll take me 6 months (give and take) to buy 3 pieces of i470 gear.
By which time, it's already outdated.....

Way to go...can't even get to enjoy the gear.

This looting system is absolutely horrible for PUGS

I know exactly how you feel... I've killed e4s 11 times now and still didn't get my Weapon.

I could have traded the weapon for books by now but I'm refusing to do that at the moment because I want to see how long it will take me to win a roll on a weapon coffer once or the spear drops (main drg). According to statistics my chances are around 18% to get the drop (coffer or weapon)...

I even started a little betting game in my FC where people are guessing in which week I'll get it just to make it less frustrating to go in once per week and coming out empty handed once again xD

From a static perspective it's better. I made a spreadsheet for the group's BiS and we kept track of who got what and went from there. It worked out pretty good, better than it used to under the old system when it was strictly chance.

2 changes I'd offer:

1) Drop at least 1 piece of gear along with the coffers
2) Drop more oils for accessory/belt upgrades

The second one is a bigger issue IMO, our group is going on like week 14 and people still need accessory upgrades. Either that or design more of the raid accessories to be BiS and thus not require as many upgrade oils.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

2) Drop more oils for accessory/belt upgrades

The second one is a bigger issue IMO, our group is going on like week 14 and people still need accessory upgrades. Either that or design more of the raid accessories to be BiS and thus not require as many upgrade oils.

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This is why they usually implement these items to be obtainable via current level Hunt content in the follow-up patch. Your people can go out and farm them now.

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

This is why they usually implement these items to be obtainable via current level Hunt content in the follow-up patch. Your people can go out and farm them now.

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I suppose that's fair in some sense.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I suppose that's fair in some sense.

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it is. it just depends on how badly they want to farm hunts. =p

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Originally Posted by FirstnameLastname

This is why they usually implement these items to be obtainable via current level Hunt content in the follow-up patch. Your people can go out and farm them now.

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Plus the alliance raid is guaranteed to drop one upgrade coin a week for each player who runs it.

I just wish they adopt normal raid's loot system. It feels like you're punished for not having a static and at the mercy of PUGs. If you ran once, but didn't get loot you can still get loot on the rematch... I don't get why Square insists on this system for savage.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

I just wish they adopt normal raid's loot system. It feels like you're punished for not having a static and at the mercy of PUGs. If you ran once, but didn't get loot you can still get loot on the rematch... I don't get why Square insists on this system for savage.

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They do this for savage because 470 gear is the highest available til 5.2. Remember there is 6 months in between raid tiers.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

I just wish they adopt normal raid's loot system. It feels like you're punished for not having a static and at the mercy of PUGs. If you ran once, but didn't get loot you can still get loot on the rematch... I don't get why Square insists on this system for savage.

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Because it's the highest ilvl obtainable. Allowing Savage gear to be farmed weekly ala normal mode would render every other avenue for gear progression obsolete. Why run the Copied Factory for i460 when you can just do E2S for a better piece? Why buy crafted gear outside the first couple weeks? Why even bother with Hades EX? The tier is intended to last seven months.