Shouldn't Scatter/Impact have been the faster cast and Veraero II and Verthunder II have been the higher potency long casts you use with dualcast to follow the same pattern as the single target rotation?
It just seems awkward having the "neutral" attack as the one you use with dualcast when we've been doing the opposite for single target for so long.
Doesn't RDM's AoE Seem Backwards?
Printable View
-
08-02-2019, 01:31 AMNicodemus_MercyDoesn't RDM's AoE Seem Backwards?
-
08-02-2019, 03:31 AMGallus
Not a big deal, but yeah, it would make more sense.
-
08-02-2019, 05:00 AMNalien
Pretty sure they reversed the order specifically to add a contrast between the AoE rotation and single target rotation.
-
08-02-2019, 05:02 AMKabooa
I'd rather have Scatter Spam back.
-
08-02-2019, 05:06 AMNicodemus_MercyWell it certainly adds "contrast" I'll give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
-
08-02-2019, 09:56 AMTankHunter678
I hardly use Impact as a result of that. Reason being that since I am expected to get to 100/100 or at least 50/50 so I can use my melee AoE I find it better to just bounce between Veraero II/Verthunder II or double cast one and then double cast the other. I feel like I generate more mana doing that which leads to more melee aoe spam.
I honestly would rather the 1 button scatter spam with a chance at enhanced scatters giving 11/11 mana. -
08-02-2019, 11:00 AMZynesteOwe please don't do that. Especially before level 78. Impact is 6 mana VS 7 and 100 to 120 potency more than VAII/VTII.Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
1 mana gain every cast does not make up for that 100-120 potency loss.
Personally, I feel impact is second because it's a beautiful animation.
Scorche is also the end of our ST rotation. Restricted red magic > Restricted B/W magic > unrestricted Red magic > unrestricted B/W magic.
If I had to make any alterations to the current AOE system, confined to not adding new skills, I would make Engagement AOE, to make up for it's limited use [beyond its current ST rotation manafiction race niche and platforms] and I'd have acceleration increase the mana gain of the next Impact, similar to enhanced scatter. -
08-02-2019, 11:14 AMDuskane
I'd rather not go back to one button Aoe spam like healers
aoe in shb is 1000x better only DRG suffers having aoe learned later -
08-02-2019, 11:49 AMArchwizardI'm okay with it, honestly. It doesn't really affect anything either way, and as Nalien said, it was specifically reversed to differentiate it from the single-target rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy
Plus I'd rather this than just a repetition with 1:1 substitutes, or just Scatter-spam for half a dungeon. -
08-02-2019, 02:10 PMTankHunter678Impact is 3/3 which means with spamming the 2 7s I get a 2 mana increase over using impact. 28 combined instead of 26 combined over 4 GCDs. Do I suffer in potency? Yeah. Though really I am just doing as much DPS as back in SB. I also get faster moulinet spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
If I was to improve things as they are with just number tweaks I would make Impact give at minimum 4/4. Preferably 6/6 or 11/11 seeing how we have a higher mana target to hit for moulinet spam then before. As it is we generate mana really slowly in aoe situations when we need more mana then the ST rotation for optimal use. Those high proc chance enhanced scatters meant a lot in our old AoE buildup. -
08-02-2019, 03:12 PMArchwizard
Personally I would say have Impact scale its Mana generated based on the number of targets hit. Say, 2/2 per target, perhaps with a cap at 3-5 targets.
... and maybe drop each V2 to 5-6 Mana. -
08-02-2019, 04:12 PMZynesteBut how much faster do you even get moulinet spam if you're only getting 1 extra mana every 5 seconds, [at the cost of 100 potency minimum.]Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
<[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]> <[0/7] [7/0]>
56/56 over 16 GCDS
vs
<[0/7] [3/3]> <[7/0] [3/3]> <[0/7] [3/3]> <[7/0] [3/3]> <[0/7] [3/3]> <[7/0] [3/3]> <[0/7] [3/3]> <[7/0] [3/3]>
52/52 over 16 GCDs.
It's the same mana generated with less mana overcap when interacting with Manafiction for 50/50 into 100/100 while doing 800 more potency.
I guess I just find impact as one of the better things that did come out of this expansion, so I just don't want people to miss out. Like all things, it could be better, but eventually you have to draw a line. It's great at its job now and outpaces the filler aoe. -
08-02-2019, 04:39 PMDrayosI dunno I find tyhe new AoE atleast more visually Appealing..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
I kinda wish u had a additional proc off the two Additional AoE Abilities, Just had a AoE of Verstone and Verflare it could even proc over the two same hotkeys while using AoE Rotation.
I feel it woulda Spiced it up alittle more and been able to give generation alittle more pace then it does currently which can feel slow. -
08-02-2019, 06:24 PMNalienWhy would you want to do "as much DPS as back in SB" when you're fully able to do far more by just using Impact properly? You're gaining 1 extra Mana per Dualcast cycle at the cost of 100 potency in an AoE situation where our AoEs have no damage falloff... All so you can get Moulinet 1 GCD faster? When Moulinet actually does less damage than Impact?Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
If you really want to play that way, you should still be using Impact most of the time;
Verthunder II > Veraero II (7/7) > Verthunder II > Veraero II (14/14) > Verthunder II > Veraero II (21/21) > Moulinet (3 Dualcast cycles) - Combined potency - 920 per mob
Verhtunder II > Impact (10/3) > Veraero II > Impact (13/13) > Verthunder II > Veraero II (20/20) > Moulinet (3 Dualcast cycles) - Combined potency - 1120 per mob
But lets just do things properly instead;
Verhtunder II > Impact (10/3) > Veraero II > Impact (13/13) > Verhtunder II > Impact (23/16) > Veraero II > Impact (26/26) > Moulinet (4 Dualcast cycles)
Now, doing a combined potency for that is a bit unfair, it has a whole extra Dualcast cycle in it, after all... Lets just compare in terms of GCDs though. Both previous methods had 7 GCDs worth in them for their potency. Lets take the first 7 GCDs from above and combine their potency - 120 + 220 + 120 + 220 + 120 + 220 + 120 = 1140 per mob - Do I even need to bother saying more? -
08-02-2019, 06:30 PMZynesteJust a small correction, Enhanced Moulinet does do more pps than Dual casted impact [, even though yes 8 impacts completely overshadow any possible gains from it coming a gcd early. ]Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
E. Moulinet- 200/1.5 = 134 pps
Impact- 220/2.5 = 88 pps -
08-03-2019, 01:21 AMKabooaAlternatively, I'd rather Scatter / Impact be the starter and have a built in effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
Impact
Spell
2.5 Seconds
Effect: Deals damage in a 5y radius to the target for 130 Potency. Grants "Scatter", causing the next spell to target all enemies in a 5y radius and deal 35% less potency.
Fact of the matter is this exchange gave Red Mage slightly better AoE at the cost of hotbar efficiency. Bleh. Feels awful. -
08-03-2019, 01:32 AMPatronasCharm
I like it the way it is, but I just wish that Impact would have an “enhanced Impact”, even if it were a 20% chance, that went from giving 3/3 >> 5/5. Just feel the mana accumulation on AoE is far too slow.
-
08-03-2019, 02:01 AMGallus
My guess is that this was a very poor attempt at making the job more "complex". Because from a "what would make more sense perspective", Impact into Verthunder II/Veraero II is what we should have, just like we Jolt II into Verthunder/Veraero.
-
08-03-2019, 03:09 AMIscah
I think the current sequence puts it more in line with the rest of RDM's attacks, actually.
Your basic combos are Jolt-Aero and Jolt-Thunder, so why not Jolt-Scatter to go with it? -
08-03-2019, 05:18 AMPeppermintBrown
It's a bit odd yeah, though mostly I'm sad they went with these spells and not VerBlizzard and VerWater to give red mages access to all six elements.
-
08-03-2019, 06:25 PMArchwizardNot really? I mean, it's an increase of two buttons in AoE, when we already lost 6 role actions and Tether, and merged Impact and the Verfinishers into other skills, so "hotbar efficiency" isn't a remote concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Further, part of the problem with your suggestion is that we would be continuously proccing Fire and Stone which we wouldn't be able to use in AoE since we would always be using Impact in its place.
(And that's before you get into numeric inefficiencies like the 25% longer cast time interfering with slide-cast timing, or further loss in Mana generation.)
And honestly, it would just make the rotation more boring? Not quite "spam Scatter for most of the dungeon" boring but 1:1 substitution of the single-target rotation with even fewer buttons. -
08-03-2019, 06:29 PMDuskaneRed mage hotbar was pretty empty in SB it was 30% role skillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
and its pretty much the same with less role skills and Verholy/flare on ver aero and thunder + scorch being on Jolt -
08-03-2019, 06:37 PMArchwizardI could see them adding Verblizzard and Verwater (or Verfreeze and Verflood) as our versions of Foul or Afflatus Misery -- procs or generated skills with high on-target potency in single-target and some peripheral dropoff for AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeppermintBrown
Probably not near 650 or 900 potency of course, but it would only need to be more than 310 potency and 11 Mana to be worth a GCD, which is a pretty reasonable range before it reaches the Verfinishers. -
08-06-2019, 05:43 PMJohnnyDevo
Just wanted to add some further evidence for using Impact over just repeating aero II and thunder II.
Aero/thunder (from now, "short" casts) both deal 120 potency per target and give 7 mana. Impact ("long" cast) deals 220 potency per target and gives 6 mana. A short-short dualcast therefore gives 14 mana and deals 240 potency per target, and a short-long dualcast gives 13 mana and deals 340 potency per target.
By doing a short-short dualcast, you are trading 100 potency per target to gain... 1 mana.
An enchanted moulinet costs a total of 40 mana. Since a dualcast takes 5 seconds (not accounting for spell speed), you are spending 200 seconds (3 minutes and 20 seconds) to accumulate enough mana to gain an extra enchanted moulinet. You've given up 4000 potency per target to gain... 200 potency per target. That you have to spend another 1.5 seconds to use.
It is an incredibly bad idea to dualcast aero/thunder instead of impact. -
08-06-2019, 08:46 PMMansionAnd get Impact back in the proc fishing rotation. Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
I would have actually prefered something like a second combo for AoE after Moulinet that would proc a VerAero/ VerThunder AoE finisher to make things a bit more dynamic.
In dungeons I see a lot of people a bit unsure about what to do in AoE. Get to 100 Mana for 5 Moulinets ? Get to 20 Mana for one Moulinet ? Push shiney buttons to make pretty spells ? -
08-07-2019, 03:20 AMNicodemus_Mercy
Know what might have been nice? For Scatter to be the short cast and for there to be a Veraero Impact and Verthunder Impact (same animation as Impact currently has but colored appropriately for each spell).
-
08-07-2019, 10:38 AMMaekaWhaaat? Why would you wanna do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
Veraero II/Verthunder II gives 7 of one mana, while Impact gives 3 of both.
It works out perfectly.
Veraero II = 7/0
Impact = 10/3
Verthunder II = 10/10
Impact = 13/13
Veraero II = 20/13
Impact = 23/16
Verthunder II = 23/23
Impact = 26/26
Veroaero II = 33/26
Impact = 36/29
Verthunder II = 36/36
Impact = 39/39
Veraero II = 46/39
Impact = 49/42
Verthunder II = 49/49
Impact = 52/52
At this point, you could use Manafication and get 100/100 Mana (you'd be wasting 4 of each which isn't that bad) for your 5 Enchanted Moulinets, or you could go through the whole process again, reaching 100/100 with the last Impact not necessary (do the 5 Moulinets and then spend your Dualcast).
And as other players pointed out, Impact has a greater potency so you might as well use it rather than only casting Thunder/Aero IIs.
EDIT: If you don't wanna waste 4 Mana, you could instead, stop at 49/49, use Manafication and then throw the Impact but I feel there's not really any difference in doing that to be honest. Unless you used one of your Moulinets and then threw the Impact. You could perhaps do that. -
08-07-2019, 02:36 PMAtamis
Never understood why they even wanted scatter or jolt. Everything would flow better if the cast time on fire/aero was just the same as jolt/scatter and just remove those two spells. Sure managing white/black bar would be slightly more interesting unless they tweaked those also. Just seems like uneeded button bloat and the wrong place to make the job complex or interesting.
-
08-08-2019, 07:47 AMMaekaThey wanted to get away from 1-button AoE. If you noticed, they gave Tanks a two-button AoE combo where they usually only had 1 AoE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamis
-
08-08-2019, 10:02 AMTankHunter678It came from feeling like I was generating too little mana, and the fact that even when I was doing it properly in normal dungeons my MP was getting outright devoured while I was doing my melee AoEs less. A stark difference from before ShB where the proc rate on the 11/11 enhanced scatter was good enough that I was usually doing the melee AoE combo rather often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maeka
Throwing out the spell AoEs gets monotonous really fast, on top of it feeling completely backwards, and the melee stuff is supposed to break up the monotony. It is not like with the ST combo where you have procs to help alter what you do during your casts as you build up to your melee stuff.
I fully understand that it is less damage, less efficient. Which is why my suggestions remain to increase the mana gain of impact if they are going to keep this backwards AoE rotation. Otherwise I would rather mirror the ST rotation and introduce a couple more AoE spells so that our AoE rotation flows like the ST one. It also would have been nice if they brought over more elements to work with so that our AoE rotation was very visibly distinct from our ST instead of just more lightning and the old WHM Aero 3 animation.