Nin rework suggestion

Posted some of these ideas in different threads and wanted to post a collection of my thoughts.

My Opinions are as follows:

Make mudras 1 button abilities;
Ten > Fuma
Chi > Raiton
Jin > Katon
Delete > Hyoton (or repurpose it suggestions below, as of now its not used)

When kassatsu is used;
Fuma > Hyosho Ranryu
Katon > Goka Mekkyaku

2 button mudra abilities (button combos are just randomly used as examples);
Ten – Chi > Doton
Jin – Chi > Suiton
Chi – Jin > Huton (30 second refresh/application, for when huton drops for reasons)

Ten – Jin > Hyoton potency of 200 (Maybe a repurpose idea) triggers Meisui? Instead of suiton doing trick and meisui

3 button mudras;
Huton > does full 70 second duration as normal
Hyoton (maybe another idea for repurpose) > adds 80 ninki to gauge with 110s CD (intended to use for downtime/transitions)

Dream within a dream now procs Duality
Duality works like previously but can also crit/DH.
Trick attack procs Assasinate with 600 potency 120 sec CD


Please feel free to tear this apart.

Also forgot to include
Shadow fang is now apart of armor crush combo. Eliminating the shadow fang combo

There's so many mistakes in your suggestions that I don't know where to start, organize your thoughts before posting anything next time.

First or all, you say you want 1 button mudras but you talk about 2 and 3 mudra abilities right after, doesn't make sense. The only thing I'd change from mudras is simply remove the cooldown if you fail a combination and being able to weave signs while using other skills.

Second, if Shadow Fang was part of the main rotation you would be refreshing your DoT all the time, doesn't make sense either, take a look at DRG for example, it has 1-2-3 dmg combo and 1-4-5 buff/DoT combo. I would make Armor Crush being finisher for Shadow Fang though, that'd be nice.

Third, Dream with a dream should be used along Trick Attack and Assasinate and I personally love that 3 hit combo, they all share the same cooldown and are the biggest burst damage NIN has.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

There's so many mistakes in your suggestions that I don't know where to start, organize your thoughts before posting anything next time.

First or all, you say you want 1 button mudras but you talk about 2 and 3 mudra abilities right after, doesn't make sense. The only thing I'd change from mudras is simply remove the cooldown if you fail a combination and being able to weave signs while using other skills.

Second, if Shadow Fang was part of the main rotation you would be refreshing your DoT all the time, doesn't make sense either, take a look at DRG for example, it has 1-2-3 dmg combo and 1-4-5 buff/DoT combo. I would make Armor Crush being finisher for Shadow Fang though, that'd be nice.

Third, Dream with a dream should be used along Trick Attack and Assasinate and I personally love that 3 hit combo, they all share the same cooldown and are the biggest burst damage NIN has.

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the 1 button mudras are for helping with rotations and clipping issues due to ping issues. right now you use either raiton (2 buttons) or Hyoshu Ranryu (2 buttons)and both are clipping which could lead to more dps if clipping was being avoided.

The 2 button combos:
Doton and Huton wont be used in a raid situation really, the only 2 button combo is Suiton for trick attack This helps with players with ping issues.
The 3 button combos won't be used during battles anyways(huton).

So i'm not sure what you were confused with?

Currently suiton is a 3 button mudra and clips. Reducing it to 2 button will reduce the amount of clipping.

You would not be refreshing your dot all the time. Shadow fang applies a 24 second dot and armor crush refreshes huton by 30 seconds.
I must be missing something where you state that it will be refreshing all the time. You would just be reapplying shadow fang like your normally do but with the added effect of extending huton. Seems like a win win to me, unless im missing something.
You would get an extra rotation of your main 1-2-3 combo in instead of doing the 1-4 then 1-2-5 combo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBLazORI

Also forgot to include
Shadow fang is now apart of armor crush combo. Eliminating the shadow fang combo

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You don't know your own combos, Shadow Fang doesn't combo into Armor Crush so your sentence doesn't make sense.

Anyway, 1 button is 1 button, if you maintain Mudras+Ninjutsu it's a 2 keybind combo not 1, you should say that you want to reduce the amount of mudras required per Ninjutsu instead, but that is also wrong because you intend to keep 2 and 3 combinations so you basically just mix mudras around for nothing.

You idea would make players have to re-learn their muscle memory and brings literally nothing.

About the 1-2-3 etc etc combos, I explained it on my first post so I'm not gonna repeat myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You don't know your own combos, Shadow Fang doesn't combo into Armor Crush so your sentence doesn't make sense.

Anyway, 1 button is 1 button, if you maintain Mudras+Ninjutsu it's a 2 keybind combo not 1, you should say that you want to reduce the amount of mudras required per Ninjutsu instead, but that is also wrong because you intend to keep 2 and 3 combinations so you basically just mix mudras around for nothing.

You idea would make players have to re-learn their muscle memory and brings literally nothing.

About the 1-2-3 etc etc combos, I explained it on my first post so I'm not gonna repeat myself.

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I very well know the ninjas combos.
I think we are misunderstanding each other.
I know shadow fang doesnt combo into armor crush. Im suggesting that Shadow fangs Dot be included in armor crush and just elminate the shadow fang combo. So you would now only have your Aeolian edge combo and Armor crush combo(with the inclusion of the shadow fang dot).

The main mudras you use are all 2 button mudras, Raiton and Hyoshu Ranryu.

Should i label 3 button mudras as 4 button mudras for clarity? That wouldn't make sense because fuma, raiton,hyoton are not mudras and are "Ninjutsu"

I thought it was common knowledge that a 3 button mudra is a 3 button combo of mudras followed by a executing a "Ninjutsu"

In my original post I did label them as "1 button mudras" "2 button mudras" "3 button mudras"

Whats wrong with relearning combos? Lots of classes have been completely changed many times.
We had to relearn shadowfang from a 3 button combo to a 2 button combo. It's not much to adapt and it would be much more stream lined and less button presses than it currently is.

Machinist had their job completely changed and it didnt take long to relearn that class.

I'm not sure if you are correctly reading my post and are just posting out of impulse.


EDIT:
For example ninjas currently have about a 34-36 button opener within 7 GCD's

implementing my suggestion for "Mudras" not "Ninjutsu"
Would reduce the button combination to about 28-30 buttons pressed. Reducing the amount of clipping using 3 button mudras (or 4 button mudras as you would call them)

Ninjas can press for example Jin > Raiton, as that fits into a double weave, unlike the current Jin > Chi > Raiton

With my suggestions the only 2 button mudra (3 button mudra for your liking) would be suiton.

With my suggestions tou would never use a 3 button mudra ( 4 button mudra for your liking) during a battle

I agree that there can be a misunderstanding but that's because you don't explain properly, you made it sound like you wanted just to press 1 mudra (without ninjutsu) for the skill to go on. Read the first sentence from my first post.

The problem with your suggestions, besides what I already said, is that you focus exclusively on raid content. To put it clear, all you want is less buttons for your opener and single target mudras/rotation and you don't really care about AoE at all (dungeons).

What is wrong with relearning combos is as simple as there is no need to do that, so it's a complete waste of time and efford. Machinist is a complete different case but I'm not gonna dive into that.

I don't main Ninja, though my friend does, and even I can tell this is not great. The Mudras, latency aside, aren't really an issue well except Hyoron, but meh. The issues are with, TenChiJin, Bunshin, and Trick Attack. Simple potency buffs, or ease of access for some skills wont fix the underlining issue.

Latency and clipping has been a big turn off for me on the job. So I like the idea of adding/changing things to make that less of an issue.

I think Dancer serves as an excellent Template for jobs that go "Alternative Mode".

Consider:

Ninjutsu
Ability
Recast: 1s ( 30 second once finished)
Effect: For the next 10 seconds, Aeolian Edge becomes Ten, Armor Crush becomes Chi, and Shadowfang becomes Jin.

Ninjutsu is recast again to perform an action based on what Mudras are performed.

None: Rabbit. Heals the Ninja for 20% of their maximum health.
Rest are Unchanged

Ten (Or Chi / Jin)
Spell
Range: 25y (Optional Target)
Recast: 1.0
Effect: Perform the Mudra for Ten (Or Chi / Jin). If an enemy is targeted, that enemy takes 100 potency.

This allows Ninja to keep its Mudras, but solves the clipping issue by moving them to the GCD. Ninjutsu itself is OGCD and serves as Starter and Ender. The Mudras themselves being on the GCD (and providing passable damage for the GCD when enemies are present) means you're no longer clipping your GCD, either on two mudra with higher ping, or 3 mudra as always. Them being GCD also grants them an easy cost / benefit ratio.

Then we add two more changes, one of which can take advantage of 3 new button spots that the action shift provides us.

Ten Chi Jin
Ability
Recast: 30
Charges: Maximum 3.
Effect: Execute the current mudra combination. Increases the potency of mudra combinations cast by Ninjutsu by 50% for 5 seconds.

Throw Dagger
Weaponskill
Range: 15y
Effect: Throws daggers at the target for 150 potency.
Combo Potency - Any Mudra: 240.
Combo Effect - Any Mudra: Throw Dagger does not interrupt Weaponskill Combos or Mudra strings.

^^^ Weaving tool! Potency puts it at less than Mudra chaining, but more than clipping a GCD to cast the Ninjutsu. Plus, Ninjas in FF have always been about throwing stuff. Throw Daggers should be more prominent! Also provides the ninja with decent enough ranged options if forced out for some time.

Suppose one more change just for the sake of "flow".

Kassatsu
Ability
Recast: Whateveritisnow
Charges: 2
Effect: Execute the current Mudra combination with a superior effect. Only certain Mudra Combinations work. Ends current Mudra Combination. [Aka Ninjutsu goes on cooldown]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I don't main Ninja, though my friend does, and even I can tell this is not great. The Mudras, latency aside, aren't really an issue well except Hyoron, but meh. The issues are with, TenChiJin, Bunshin, and Trick Attack. Simple potency buffs, or ease of access for some skills wont fix the underlining issue.

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Mudra's are 100% a issue atm especially when expected to use 2 step mudras back to back within a trick window

Mudra's takes a fast pace Job and hit the breaks every 20 seconds

They are just terrible design

I kinda like how mudras are, if you want a fast pace melee just play monk... As for changes just nerf trick attack to hell, like 5% for 10-15 secs then buff overall damage of everything else. One of the reasons devs left it like this is because they want people to try out other jobs rather than the usual meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Mudra's are 100% a issue atm especially when expected to use 2 step mudras back to back within a trick window

Mudra's takes a fast pace Job and hit the breaks every 20 seconds

They are just terrible design

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They are not terrible design, the only "main" issue they have is latency, which can be rectified on both ends. They are on equal footing with a Dancer's dances, specifically Standard Step. Only TenChiJin really has an issue and that is the loss of the ability if you move. A lockout system similar to the dances would fix that.

Mudras are meant to act as a multifaceted replacement for a normal GCD skill, that can be weaved. How the weaving works especially now, I can't say, because I don't play it often enough, but these are the insights I've gotten from my friend who mains it. Additionally, getting 2 Ninjutsu in a Trick Attack window shouldn't be an issue, barring latency of course. Let's see from what I remember from Stormblood. You should be able to get in Shadowfang, Dream within a Dream, the Aeolian Edge combo, using Duality on Aeolian Edge, and the two Ninjutsu, both Raiton. That's providing you have Huton up and don't spam Trick Attack the second it's available. It was definitely tight, but it all fit. Sorta like old school Wildfire, lol.

But I don't want to get into a debate. As I've said I don't play Ninja enough to really add too much to the discussion, especially now considering, I haven't really touched it.

I actually thought OP post was clear enough to be understandable...
ANYWAYS before any direct buffs these are the indirect things I would hope to see changed/implemented

Removing the immobility lock on TCJ would be massive negating a potential 2000+ loss for bad timing.
Removing Bunny Mudra and giving us DNC style allowing us to continue our jutsu as if the miss mudra hadnt happened would save us from server tick heavily without any actual dmg buffs, it would just remove potential loss.
Making Hyosho on Fuma, and making raiton unique and/or a weak long duration dot would be a huge potency boon due to the removal of a lot of clipping. + open up a SkS build potentially.
Making Meisui a flat gain or tied to something other than our suiton would make planning ahead literally 120seconds no longer as big an issue.
Cutting the duration of bunshin to 8 so it only lasted one full combo, but granting it the teased effect in ShB would be a massive potency buff (instead of this 133 per hit thing).

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Cutting the duration of bunshin to 8 so it only lasted one full combo, but granting it the teased effect in ShB would be a massive potency buff (instead of this 133 per hit thing).

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Having things on a timer will always result in "Hey, if you get it right at the server tick and some you can get 1 more gcd!". Just have it mimic the next X weaponskills you are using it much more stable solution.

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Originally Posted by Gun-Cat

Having things on a timer will always result in "Hey, if you get it right at the server tick and some you can get 1 more gcd!". Just have it mimic the next X weaponskills you are using it much more stable solution.

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That is an even better idea. 3 would be great cause then a perfect could do aeolian and finish with Shadowfang and mimiced dot. a non perfect could finish out any standard 3 part combo. only sad part tho is it owuld have less interplay then with SkS

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I don't main Ninja, though my friend does, and even I can tell this is not great. The Mudras, latency aside, aren't really an issue well except Hyoron, but meh. The issues are with, TenChiJin, Bunshin, and Trick Attack. Simple potency buffs, or ease of access for some skills wont fix the underlining issue.

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Mudras are one of top complaints due to clipping of latency. The only reason we have multiple button presses is merely for the "coolness" of mudras.

I do agree that TCJ, bunshin, trick is also another part of the complaints.
Potency buffs will help ninja since that is the number 1 complaint right now, low pDPS.

I really like some of the ideas in this thread, so I'll echo some of them here:

- make Goka and Hyosho straight upgrades at 76+ from Hyoton and Katon. No Kassatsu required. Same as many other jobs who simply had old skills replaced with their new upgrades. Simple, easy fix.
Requiring 4 button presses (Kassatsu, 2 mudra, then your Ninjutsu key) for mediocre damage is downright silly.
- revert Kassatsu back to what it was pre-5.0, allowing us to get that burst dps when we need it. If I'm standing back throwing fireballs or shurikens (and not building ninki by meleeing), I should be able to justify all those button presses with a guaranteed critical / direct hit.
- change Meisui to a simple Ninki boost. No requirements. Works for SAMs just fine, don't see why NIN can't have that too.
- up our AoE rotation somewhat. 120 + 140 is absolutely horrible. Even a tank such as PLD has better (120 -> 220 combo). The only way I can justify my AoE dps is if I have Doton ticking, and I'm using Bunshin with my Death Blossom -> Hakke spam so that I can throw out several Hellfrogs too. Oh, and using up my 2 x Goka AoE. That's a LOT of stuff going on just to justify ok AoE dps.

That's pretty much a *needed* fix, I would say.

My wishlist would also change Trick Attack to 5% raidwide dps increase, down from 10%, but allow it to be used outside of Hide / Suiton requirements. Hide and Suiton would then allow a guaranteed critical hit if used in conjunction with Trick Attack.
And I'd boost Bunshin back to what we saw pre-release.
Can't see that happening, though, but would love to see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBLazORI

Mudras are one of top complaints due to clipping of latency. The only reason we have multiple button presses is merely for the "coolness" of mudras.

I do agree that TCJ, bunshin, trick is also another part of the complaints.
Potency buffs will help ninja since that is the number 1 complaint right now, low pDPS.

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That's just it though, the only issue with mudras is latency, which is an issue all skills have. Granted, it is a concern, but it's similar to the animation lock on jumps, there is only so much that can be done. Plus latency is an issue that can be adjusted on both sides. Players are usually able to adjust to their latency since it effects the entire game. I am not saying Mudras couldnt use an adjustment, but the system itself is fine. The main suggestion I can give is a gauge like DNC were you can see what mudra registered.

Hmm... I think I have an idea, but I need to write it down.

Looks like they are thinking about reducing the amount of buttons required to perform mudras.
I knew this was one of the main reasons.

I could see something like a 2 step or 3 step, "Ninjutsu" then the Weaponskills change into different jutsu you can perform, shuriken/raiton/katon/etc/etc and it just performs it. It would speed up NIN greatly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Airget

I could see something like a 2 step or 3 step, "Ninjutsu" then the Weaponskills change into different jutsu you can perform, shuriken/raiton/katon/etc/etc and it just performs it. It would speed up NIN greatly.

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So Spinning Edge would become Fuma Shuriken, Gust Slash would be Raiton, Shadow Fang would be Hyoton, Aeolian Edge would become Huton, Death Blossom would become Katon, and Hakke Mujinsatsu would become Doton? Sounds nice, but what issues could come with it would be my question.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

So Spinning Edge would become Fuma Shuriken, Gust Slash would be Raiton, Shadow Fang would be Hyoton, Aeolian Edge would become Huton, Death Blossom would become Katon, and Hakke Mujinsatsu would become Doton? Sounds nice, but what issues could come with it would be my question.

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Honestly id rather NOT have the pvp version of doing ninjutsu. The mudra combination thing was part of the ninja flavor. They could have just made weaving each mudra betweem weapon skills possible, clean up some of the random weaving abilities and up some potencyx keeping things complex but not Madden

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Honestly id rather NOT have the pvp version of doing ninjutsu. The mudra combination thing was part of the ninja flavor. They could have just made weaving each mudra betweem weapon skills possible, clean up some of the random weaving abilities and up some potencyx keeping things complex but not Madden

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Totally. The only pvp thing that I'd love for pve is the consolidated one-button for the filler combo, so it could free more slots for future abilities.