Did I miss something here? What gives with the mana reductions? It's not a complaint, I'm curious as to why the costs were reduced. Is mana management that much of a glaring issue that it needed the reduction?
RDM's Patch Notes?
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07-30-2019, 07:36 PMnoxenRDM's Patch Notes?
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07-30-2019, 07:39 PMfoussi
Rdm drained alot mana, and lucid dreams couldnt keep really up.
Especially when you die in a raid. -
07-30-2019, 07:39 PMKurando
Pretty much a RDM would be spending more MP over a long duration than it would be getting back with Lucid Dreaming. This also doesn't include any Veraises being thrown inbetween, so the MP reductions help to control MP nicer but we'll see how it works out.
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07-30-2019, 07:46 PMKaethra
I was seeing my rotations get halted a bit on my RDM, even on lower level content due to MP running out, even if I kept LD up on cooldown. I was starting a LD at 8000MP and still having issues.
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07-30-2019, 07:54 PMnoxen
Huh... I didn't really have these mana issues. Like, I'd pop LD at around 6.5k mana and I'd reach back up to around 8-9k just fine. Of course there were diminishing returns each time it was used, but I seldom saw myself get below the 5k mana mark before the fight was over.
The only troubles I get is when I have to play Rezz Mage to pick up 2 healers and a tank. *laughs awkwardly in Eden 3 flashbacks* -
07-30-2019, 07:55 PMHasrat
Pretty sure some players mathed it out, and even with LD, with 100% uptime optimal rotation, RDM was running an MP deficit, resulting in out-of-mp eventually.
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07-30-2019, 08:12 PMKaethraWithout using raise, I was commonly ending fights with 500-2300MP in normal leveling dungeons at the end of boss fights. If I had to use raise, I was hitting a not enough MP wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by noxen
Though with this change, it seems I'm ending fights with 3800-4500MP without using LD. So I don't think Raid MP usage issues has been entirely eliminated, will still have to use LD there, but I think the deficit is more or less gone thankfully.
It might get dicey with heavy raise usage, but IMO it should. RDM aren't a crutch for others, and I hope peeps understand that going forward with these changes. -
07-31-2019, 02:21 AMNighthawky2010I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaethra
I'm ectremely happy with these MP cost reduction.
I did the crown of immaculate yesterday & had to raise both healers....I was mana was hurting, even with LD. -
07-31-2019, 02:27 AMFynlarNeither did I.Quote:
Huh... I didn't really have these mana issues.
Ruling out situations where the RDM died or multiple Verraises had to be used, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people running into MP issues on RDM were as a result of not riding Lucid. -
07-31-2019, 02:31 AMSendohJinthat is a problem. no other job has to use Lucid on cooldown when nothing goes wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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07-31-2019, 03:02 AMFynlarI have to use Lucid on cooldown on healers or else I eventually run dry on them too (unless I just stand around doing nothing inbetween heals, but we all know how frowned upon that is). Don't see why this is a "problem" or why RDM deserves special treatment here.Quote:
that is a problem. no other job has to use Lucid on cooldown when nothing goes wrong.
It's making use of their kit, and it's just one of several ogcds that you should have learned to weave well before you even get Verraise. -
07-31-2019, 03:51 AMBonboriIf you were mana-positive then you were not casting with close to 100% uptime. When played properly, RDM was unsustainable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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07-31-2019, 04:05 AMLunarEmerald
A fundamental problem with the previous MP values is that Red Mage is punished in dps heavily by the existence of verraise. Before they lowered the costs, Red Mage could hardly use verraise without bottoming out their MP. You could only use it 2-3 times in an entire fight before running into crippling MP issues.
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07-31-2019, 04:07 AMXatsh
On long fights rdm would run out of mp eventually in they are maximizing casting uptime or had too much spellspeed. LD did not keep up.
If you ever casted raise in the fight.... you 100% ran out of mp. Which decimated your dps output. Why you see so many rdms not raise ppl anymore when they die and they leave it to the healers to do.
This change should alleviate this problem and allow rdms to get that insta raise out without completely screwing their dps overall. (Insta raise being one of the only real reason to use a rdm over any other caster) -
07-31-2019, 04:11 AMMrKusakabe
Even in some (involuntary) longer fights in Level 60 dungeons I noted a trend with my Mana going dry eventually (as if looking at your fuel gauge in your car and estimating how long you will be able to keep driving before refilling) if we don't get a break inbetween the fights or when my guys weren't that great (read as: Take ages to kill a boss), so I can only imagine how this has been in Level 70+ dungeons where full rotations are a thing....
I mean, it's just a slight tweak that affects longer fights anyways, basically where the "buff"is supposed to unfold I guess. And I don't think it's the point of designing a class that is being punished for an engaging style of combat and/or for using Vercure/Verraise and thus basically rendering a part of our (Red Mage-)identity useless just because we have to save the mana... -
07-31-2019, 04:13 AMSendohJinwhy would you try and balance RDM against healers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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07-31-2019, 04:51 AMDogempireHigh cast speed can also cause MP issues, or rather, make them worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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07-31-2019, 06:52 AMFynlarIf you're trying to insinuate I wasn't riding gcd, you're wrong.Quote:
If you were mana-positive then you were not casting with close to 100% uptime. When played properly, RDM was unsustainable.
Still had no problems, unless I had to babysit people who stood in bad. RDM sustained itself fine over any fight I've done in the game so long as I didn't forget about Lucid (which, again, I believe is the actual problem with most people who thought RDM had MP problems).
It's not that I haven't been playing RDM since 5.0 either; RDM was literally my first 80 and what I brought through MSQ.
Because one primary reason a RDM would encounter MP issues is raises, which healers also have?Quote:
why would you try and balance RDM against healers?
All I was trying to say is that it shouldn't be seen as a "problem" to have to ride your Lucid cooldown. It's what you *should* be doing anyway. Since they got rid of the hate dump aspect there is literally no other reason to hang onto it.
Well yeah, it's common knowledge that SPS isn't an ideal stat for RDMs.Quote:
High cast speed can also cause MP issues, or rather, make them worse.
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07-31-2019, 07:21 AMNyvaraThis. We went from being rez mages to reznot mages.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarEmerald
That 15 min thing is something I ran into that's when I knew RDM was in Deep trouble. I'm glad to see the mana reductions!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardox
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07-31-2019, 07:22 AMArdoxPeople did the math and even executing your normal rotation perfectly and using LD on cooldown you would have max 15 minutes of fight before running dry. Each Raise was costing 4 minutes on that clock and if you'd die you couldn't count on LD to help you since even on CD it wasn't enough. Also, caster gear tends to have SkS on it so it would have compound the problem sooner or latter. RDM had MP issues. period. and that's why the potencies have been adjusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
LD is meant as a tool to help recover if you need to use VerRaises or VerCures or if you're getting raised yourself. It hasn't meant to be a mandatory part of the rotation -
08-01-2019, 03:34 AMFynlarThere isn't any encounter in the game I've done where I'm fighting for 15 minutes straight with zero downtime.Quote:
People did the math and even executing your normal rotation perfectly and using LD on cooldown you would have max 15 minutes of fight before running dry.
Says who?Quote:
LD is meant as a tool to help recover if you need to use VerRaises or VerCures or if you're getting raised yourself. It hasn't meant to be a mandatory part of the rotation
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08-01-2019, 03:42 AMLaylaTsarra
It needed adjustment i'm glad they addressed the issue.
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08-01-2019, 03:48 AMElamysWhy are you so weirdly against these changes? BTW, most fights like Innocence are around 10 minutes normally for me, so even one Verraise could put you on the razor's edge of running out of MP, with using Lucid on cooldown. I haven't leveled RDM yet, but it doesn't take an RDM player to look at the math, realize it puts them at a point where they will run out of MP no matter what, and think okay, we should change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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08-01-2019, 04:13 AMKaethraIts irrelevant because the math is off. It took alot less than 15 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
I was running out of MP before the change on all ShB boss content while using LD on cooldown from 7500-8500MP. Without a verRaise in the mix. <---- This is why it was fixed.
With the change I end fights on the same bosses with 1800-3800MP left on the same bosses. Without using LD. This allows me to to use the occasional verRaise, and definitely helps in some of the Raid content. Sorry but I have no idea what you're doing to conserve mana. Unless you're rotating through unenchanted melee combos for small amounts of damage. I guess that was an option if you wish to see NIN levels of DPS. But its irrelevant now, SE made the change and its going to stay at this point. -
08-01-2019, 05:54 AMFynlarWhere did I say I was against the changes? I'm just not sure why they were necessary. There's a difference.Quote:
Why are you so weirdly against these changes?
Whatever the actual amount is, it's irrelevant to me because it never happened with anything I fought.Quote:
Its irrelevant because the math is off. It took alot less than 15 minutes.
That's pretty much something I've only had to do after being raised when I had just used Lucid prior to dying. And those instances are a lot rarer now due to Lucid's shorter cd since 5.0.Quote:
Unless you're rotating through unenchanted melee combos for small amounts of damage.
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08-01-2019, 06:15 AMKatie_Kitty
For my part, I 100% found the mana issue annoying and am glad they reduced our MP costs. Even putting aside the fact that RDM would run out of mana with or without lucid, the simple fact that they had to use lucid just to perform their standard DPS rotation for a while was an outrageous restriction on a job that already gets the short end of the stick every step of the way. Short of actually giving us useful spells or buffing out potencies, this at least was the very least they could do to help Red Mage compete a little bit less poorly compared to other DPS jobs.
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08-01-2019, 06:56 AMSendohJinThat is not at all the purpose of balancing jobs. And one of the best things a RDM can do is raise healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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08-01-2019, 07:03 AMArdoxWelp, just read into the changes the dev has just made...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Look, if managing MP was part of the job we would have tools in our RDM toolkit to do that (manafont, ED, TA, LS). All casters has other ways to manage their MP plus has LD for when shit hit the fan. The job was never meant to heavily rely on LD. period. Lucid Dream is that ability that helps you recover from a death (since your get raised with 0mp) or when you use MP extensive moves. That's why it's part of the casters toolset
Whatever the math it looks like the changes were necessary because they have cut the cost of all spells by a lot. Seriously, I'm glad the "pushing LD on cooldown" is not a core mechanic of the job. Really, you sound like you really thought it was a feel-good mechanic to scurry for every drop of MP just to be able to do your standard rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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08-01-2019, 07:15 AMJohnSpawnVFX
Reminder that Summoner has both a raise spell and LD as the only way to restore MP. They also rely on LD.
And as mentioned before in another thread: LD is the new Diversion. Apparently too hard for people to bother using it. -
08-01-2019, 08:12 AMFynlarExactly, you're making guesses. These changes still aren't the same as the devs saying "you're not meant to have to use Lucid as part of your rotation"Quote:
Welp, just read into the changes the dev has just made...
Again, prove it.Quote:
The job was never meant to heavily rely on LD. period.
I was never that desperate for MP on this job and I can't understand why others were unless they were having to babysit bads, which would screw anyone with a raise spell over, not just RDMs.Quote:
Whatever the math it looks like the changes were necessary because they have cut the cost of all spells by a lot. Seriously, I'm glad the "pushing LD on cooldown" is not a core mechanic of the job. Really, you sound like you really thought it was a feel-good mechanic to scurry for every drop of MP just to be able to do your standard rotation.
I mean, by your logic, they should just nix MP too along with TP (and maybe put Raises on a cooldown or something so that we can't just zombie everything) so that spellcasters don't have a resource to manage whereas the non-spellcasters get a free pass.
Not sure what you mean by that comment. Lucid doesn't even affect enmity anymore; literally its only purpose was for MP upkeep, so there's no reason to NOT use it unless you know you're going to die within the next few moments.Quote:
And as mentioned before in another thread: LD is the new Diversion. Apparently too hard for people to bother using it.
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08-01-2019, 08:25 AMKurandoHave you done any Extreme content before these RDM changes? I'm asking you this because I can't see any log information for you or notice any Trial equipment on your character. If no then perhaps that is why you cannot understand why RDM could have issues, in those types of content the job is usually pushed as optimal at possible and that's when MP issues seriously start to show. It's not so bad in dungeons and normal trials but high end content it did struggle even more and if it wasn't for these adjustments, RDM would have been a dead weight in Eden Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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08-01-2019, 08:30 AMArdoxMan.. you are just saltyQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
No job since the start of ARR needed to micro manage TP or MP for their standard rotation and with the new change it's proof enough.
You prouve that it was meant to be in the core rotation buddy -
08-01-2019, 08:54 AMSaito_SI can't understand how someone who even plays RDM enough to get it to 80 could not notice the MP issue. It was about as hard to miss as the red in my hair. I could detect it when just doing bosses, and even big trash pulls, in the EX dungeons. Obviously I wasn't actually hitting 0 MP in those situations, but one doesn't need to personally experience a moment of being completely out of MP to detect this problem. Simply by noticing how quickly my MP was draining when maintaining as-close-to 100% DPS uptime as possible, with the MP costs before Tuesday's patch, vs. how fast my MP regens, factoring in what I'd get back from using Lucid on CD, and extrapolating that out to an actual HARD fight such as an EX trial or Savage raid... Hell even just in a normal raid! Sure those aren't much harder than a story trial, but they tend to be long, especially when they're brand-new. It wasn't hard to figure out that in such fights, RDM's MP might not be sustainable. To say nothing of if you have to toss in a raise or two or if you die while Lucid is not up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
I'm not saying I did the complete math in my head and knew the precise numbers, but it wasn't hard for me to be able to at least tell that something was off. And oh look - people who are better at the precision number-crunching and theory-crafting than I am DID actually math it out with more precision, and whaddya know, something WAS off. And the devs obviously agreed since they changed all these MP costs.
Your stance in this thread is bizarre, honestly. Your basically Principal Skinner'ing it up in here. "Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else in this thread, the people who mathed it out and determined that RDM is MP-negative over a long fight, and the devs themselves, who are all wrong!" -
08-01-2019, 09:08 AMNuna???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX
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08-01-2019, 09:20 AMEspI wouldn't try and look for any logs atm. If I remember correctly, in order to make the proper changes, most logs were wiped (Shadowbringers stuff only) in order to swap from pDPS to rDPS, so you won't be finding any there. For example, if you look myself up, you'll notice I have both the achievement and the weapon on my DNC, but my logs from when I beat the fight are all gone, even my recent ones from Innocence where my DNC got the accessories too..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Seems said person has also beaten Titania Ex already. Always check achievements first if they are open to the public, since someone may not have gotten the weapon for their specific job when it is beaten for the first time and may not have gone back for repeat runs. (No game, I don't want to level WAR, stop giving me Axes. ><)
As for the topic of this post, for sure RDM was having issues with MP, even without raises in very long fights with Lucid being used on cooldown in your rotation. I noticed it a few times where I would be in a deficit in MP after Lucid wore off.
It would have still taken you a while to bottom out, but it apparent Lucid could not keep up with the amount of MP RDM was burning through with Scorch being added and Lucid's lower potency return to match the new max MP. -
08-01-2019, 02:10 PMFynlarYesQuote:
Have you done any Extreme content before these RDM changes?
I'm not the one making statements on how the ability was "intended" to be used. Burden of proof is on you, "buddy"Quote:
You prouve that it was meant to be in the core rotation buddy
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's wrong.Quote:
No job since the start of ARR needed to micro manage TP or MP for their standard rotation and with the new change it's proof enough.
I know there's been times on NIN even without using AoE where I was hard up on TP if I ever forgot to use Invigorate, and I'm sure MNKs (among others) could have claimed the same at some points, but for the most part, if I *was* remembering to use Invigorate, I would be okay, or at least okay enough to the point where I usually wouldn't dry up before a fight was over (much like how I found RDM to be pre-5.05, just replace Invigorate with Lucid).
Ran myself out of TP on PLD numerous times too (before we even got any AoE ws) in a long enough fight, and PLD had no Invigorate to bail themselves out with. Requiescat/Holy Spirit did a lot to alleviate this.
I'm not saying that over a long enough period of time, RDM couldn't possibly drain out their MP (again, barring when they die or have to res bot). I'm just saying that there aren't really any fights like that in the game, so it doesn't really matter. The vast majority of fights in the game either aren't that long or don't have 100% uptime (allowing for MP recovery). Usually both.Quote:
Your stance in this thread is bizarre, honestly. Your basically Principal Skinner'ing it up in here. "Am I out of touch? No, it's everyone else in this thread, the people who mathed it out and determined that RDM is MP-negative over a long fight, and the devs themselves, who are all wrong!"
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08-01-2019, 02:49 PMXatsh
In the end it comes down to this. What are RDM's primary jobs in a endgame party?
It is to deal damage and to provide support for the party in terms of getting dead ppl up quickly to minimize downtime and dps loss.
Could RDM do that in a long EX/Savage fight with the old system? The answer is no they could not. This is why the mp was changed.
rdm's dps is low-mid tier, if they cannot raise or spot emergency heal while maintaining constant dps... They are a completely worthless party spot.
In ex innocence and titania yes I could do it without stopping dps when using LD on cooldown you are right, I would almost run out but LD usually came back up when I was around 1500-2500mp left... but I could not perform any of my other job responsibilities. Literally had to let the healers hard cast raise on dead ppl cause I did not have the mp to instant raise them.
Once the group is solid enough to not mess up mechanics yea does not matter... but at that point well you are better off switching to blm or smn anyways. -
08-01-2019, 02:52 PMSaito_SActually bottoming out to zero MP doesn't have to be a remotely common occurrence in actual play for this to still be a design flaw that needed to be fixed. Just seeing that your MP is dropping like a rock and thinking, if this WERE a long fight, I'd really be screwed, isn't fun or engaging or challenging. It just sucks. There's no upside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
BLM goes through their MP like popcorn, and seeing your MP bar hit zero several times during a fight is expected, and that's FINE, because that's part of how the class is designed, with the whole fire/ice thing, and Flare taking all your MP. You're not "losing" your MP, you're spending it as part of your rotation, and then if you continue to perform properly, you get it back and can go right back to EXPLOSIONS within moments.
With RDM, your MP is going down simply by... playing your class correctly and doing your proper rotation? Even if you're not super likely to actually hit rock bottom, just knowing that by maximizing uptime, you're burning through your MP super fast even WITH Lucid use, and there's nothing you can do about it short of holding your DPS, no class gimmick that goes along with using your MP or way to recover, just kinda sucks. That's why it needed to be changed.
Re: "proving" Lucid's intended design one way or the other - no one here actually KNOWS the minds of the devs with any certainty, of course, but we can use a little common sense. They lowered RDM's MP costs across the board. Why would they do that instead of just saying "working as intended, please use Lucid more" if they DIDN'T intend Lucid to be something with a bit more flexibility, something you can effectively use at certain MP thresholds or hold as a contingency for untimely deaths? If they wanted us to just DEAL with RDM's MP burn by mashing Lucid whenever it's up and basically keeping it on constant CD, they wouldn't have made this change. They would have told us to suck it up. -
08-01-2019, 03:33 PMSendohJinYou just like to tell people what they have to do, which is like the same thing "buddy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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Originally Posted by Fynlar
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Originally Posted by Fynlar
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08-01-2019, 04:02 PMFynlarPretending to go along with you for a bit on the low-mid tier DPS bit because I don't know (or care) about the real hierarchy.Quote:
In the end it comes down to this. What are RDM's primary jobs in a endgame party?
It is to deal damage and to provide support for the party in terms of getting dead ppl up quickly to minimize downtime and dps loss.
Could RDM do that in a long EX/Savage fight with the old system? The answer is no they could not. This is why the mp was changed.
rdm's dps is low-mid tier, if they cannot raise or spot emergency heal while maintaining constant dps... They are a completely worthless party spot.
If RDM is "worthless" unless the party is screwing up, that kinda says to me that maybe the job should be getting adjustments other than just mere MP cost reductions which don't actually affect its overall standing in the hierarchy, no? Which is pretty much my point in this thread all along; it's hard for me to be excited over them fixing something that IMO didn't need fixing, while avoiding the real "problem" the class has. (I'm putting massive sarcasm quotes around "problem" because from my point of view, once I've actually learned the fight well enough to not die I've had no discernable "problems" pulling my weight. Surely not the DPS king by any means, but well enough to get the job done in the content I actually bother to do, and certainly not "worthless" as claimed.)
Again, healers can sometimes run out of MP too, particularly if they are having to spam raises or they forget Lucid. That isn't a "design flaw", that's just the nature of MP usage. If your MP on RDM is "dropping like a rock", you... are having to spam raises or you're forgetting Lucid. Same deal.Quote:
Actually bottoming out to zero MP doesn't have to be a remotely common occurrence in actual play for this to still be a design flaw that needed to be fixed. Just seeing that your MP is dropping like a rock and thinking, if this WERE a long fight, I'd really be screwed, isn't fun or engaging or challenging. It just sucks. There's no upside.
Your hypotheticals of "if this WERE a long fight" don't matter; what matters is if there actually ARE any long fights.
That was never the case for me on RDM. Clearly I'm not the only one, or else this topic wouldn't have gotten made.Quote:
Even if you're not super likely to actually hit rock bottom, just knowing that by maximizing uptime, you're burning through your MP super fast even WITH Lucid use,
It really isn't, but okay.Quote:
You just like to tell people what they have to do, which is like the same thing "buddy".