Why is Coil dead?

I never really understood why coil, is so dead? Compared to other 8 man raid, they stay relatively active.

Is it because it’s not a boss rush like Alex, omega , and eden?

I think it's more because I don't think Coil is actually included in the Normal Raid roulette they introduced. Raids like Alexander were just as dead before that.

If you go to partyfinder and mention wanting to do it often a lot of people are ready to jump in. Seems like a case where people want to but not a lot of people go to dutyfinder for it at the same time.

Because Coil is a savage raid and not normal. It requires more attention to detail and communication.

It is not in the normal raid roulette either.

Several reasons:

1) Coil is more on a level with Alexander/Omega Savage than with the NM-versions of those. So it was never big DF-content to begin with, because you just couldnt - and for most tiers probably still cant - clear it in DF.

2) It offers less rewards: Alexander is still beign farmed for Animus-Light, because specially A1S and A9S are quick and easy fights and give a lot of light. Omega drops music and gear thats still slightly relevant for jobs you want to gear at level 70 (...very, very slightly, I'll admit). There is also replica-coil-gear that can be crafte, sold on the marketboard and aquired through PotD-drops, but for both Alexander and Omega you need to do the fights if you want the gear.

3) Alexander, Omega and Eden NM are content people "actually do" - as in: its content you queue up for, content thats designed to be queued up for - a bit like my first point: The NMs are designed to be DF-content. Coil wasnt.

...I also doubt that Alexander is run frequently outside of light-farm and the same will go for Omega (if not already, then soon). Eden will be farmed for the gear for the moment, but will see less activity once the next tier is being released.

Twintania solo made me blink in surprise when I died. Because I couldn't figure out the dive tells. Imagining that synced gives me PTSD I don't even have.

because coil has no normal mode unlike other raids and it's not included in raid roulette unlike the others.

Coil is also cutsceen heavy just like the Castrum Meridianum and The Preatorium. Imagine having those cutsceens forced on you too with every run cause people will not wait. And Nael's meteors still wipes parties even unscyched.

If my information is correct, coils back in 2.0 was intended for savage players. It wasn't until HW that they released both normal and savage raid tiers. I think it was mainly so casual players could also experience the story and have another alternative to gear up.

What someone might be able to clear up for me is if I'm even correct. iirc there's an NPC in revenants toll that unlocks (savage) versions of some of these fights. Are these even more difficult fights than the 'normal' savage modes?. so to speak.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If my information is correct, coils back in 2.0 was intended for savage players. It wasn't until HW that they released both normal and savage raid tiers. I think it was mainly so casual players could also experience the story and have another alternative to gear up.

What someone might be able to clear up for me is if I'm even correct. iirc there's an NPC in revenants toll that unlocks (savage) versions of some of these fights. Are these even more difficult fights than the 'normal' savage modes?. so to speak.

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2nd coil has a savage version, which is more along the lines of current ultimates

I did that content while it was current. Those dive bombs ... team would eventually keep wiping there, until team became so discouraged it fell apart. So, neat to hear they are still causing issues for people!

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Originally Posted by Gula

Twintania solo made me blink in surprise when I died. Because I couldn't figure out the dive tells. Imagining that synced gives me PTSD I don't even have.

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When I was a wee Layla scholar back in the day, this prompted many lala rages

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2nd coil has a savage version, which is more along the lines of current ultimates

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Uhh, not even close.

2nd coil normal, as we have it now, are nerfed versions of their original encounters; many mechanics are nerfed to be not as fatal as they used to be (for instance, Rafflesia's Blighted Bouquet does way less damage instead of the instakill it used to be for level 50s if you got hit by it). 2nd coil "savage" is meant to be more faithful to the original versions of the encounters.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Uhh, not even close.

2nd coil normal, as we have it now, are nerfed versions of their original encounters; many mechanics are nerfed to be not as fatal as they used to be (for instance, Rafflesia's Blighted Bouquet does way less damage instead of the instakill it used to be for level 50s if you got hit by it). 2nd coil "savage" is meant to be more faithful to the original versions of the encounters.

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I was doing 2nd coil when it was relevant thanks, I'm aware of the nerfs.

On release, 2nd coil was on the level of a savage version, and 2nd coil savage was more along the lines of ultimate in difficulty. nothing of what i said was wrong. I didn't say they were ultimates, I said they were along the lines of ultimates.

It’s not dead. I’m just soloing it as Gunbreaker.

If you put up a coil party in PF unsycned and say you have a first timer bonus people will happily join since its level 50 content and were now level 80 meaning you wouldn't even need to do most of the mechanics and still complete them easily.

Eh, I solo'd Twintania as a dancer. I figured soloing the whole thing would probably be doable as a red mage.

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On release, 2nd coil was on the level of a savage version, and 2nd coil savage was more along the lines of ultimate in difficulty.

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Which is still very wrong. Have you ever actually seen an ultimate fight?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Which is still very wrong. Have you ever actually seen an ultimate fight?

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They were made with the same intention: To give those people who completed the most difficult content currently ingame an extreme challenge that wasnt intended to be cleared or even attempted by the majority of the people. It was an extra, ultimate challenge for the raiding community - very much how Ultimates are now.

You need to factor in the time here aswell: For the time when it was current content with the toolkit and knowledge we had back then, Savage Coil was the equivalent to Ultimate fights. Please keep in mind that this was the time when Titan HM was a gate for a lot of people and Titan EX groups required you to show multiple proof of multiple kills (I recall groups asking to show multiple Rowena weapons) because that was considered difficult content. Today we laugh at those mechanics, even when we do the content synched. They can be cleared in DF with a full party of randoms, of which 2 know the fight, 3 watched a video/guide and 3 just queued up without knowing anything at all. And even people who were reasonably good at the game back then where struggeling with fights like Titan EX or T9.
And for them Savage presented the same amount of challenge as Ultimates present to the dedicated raiding community today.

On an objective level Ultimaes may be the harder fights - on a subjective level, based on the time when it was relevant and toolkit available at that time, the Savage versions of the fights (for sure T9 Savage) represented an equal challenge.

And just a sidenote... judging by your lodestone-profile you havent done or at least completed the Ultimate fights yourself (nor the Omega Savage ones) - if you want to base someones judgement on the difficulty of those fights on wether or not they did them, may I sugget you refrain from making such judgement calls yourself?

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They were made with the same intention: To give those people who completed the most difficult content currently ingame an extreme challenge that wasnt intended to be cleared or even attempted by the majority of the people. It was an extra, ultimate challenge for the raiding community - very much how Ultimates are now.

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Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

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And just a sidenote... judging by your lodestone-profile you havent done or at least completed the Ultimate fights yourself (nor the Omega Savage ones) - if you want to base someones judgement on the difficulty of those fights on wether or not they did them, may I sugget you refrain from making such judgement calls yourself?

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I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.

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And for them Savage presented the same amount of challenge as Ultimates present to the dedicated raiding community today.

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It's really not even close.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.


It's really not even close.

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Actually, I think you are getting the time lines of things mixed up here.

2nd coil savage is the original, unturned version of 2nd coil. It was released while 2nd coil was still unnerfed. They even shared loot lockouts.

2nd coil savage is a much, much harder version of 2nd coil.

You may want to look up videos or mechanic guides before spouting that it's just unnerfed 2nd coil.

In normal t7 for instance, you only get 1 Renaud at a time, and the direction they face doesn't matter. In savage, you get 2, and they are also effected by the gaze mechanic, so they can petrify people they are facing as well.

While coil on release was above the difficulty of a savage mode, currently, they're not.

Outside Nael and maybe one or two others, the difficulty isnt that much different, and those exceptions are entirely due to mechanical requirements that people still fail at unsynced.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's really not even close.

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Yea that's why most people didn't clear it until they got full 130 from final coil...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

1) Coil is more on a level with Alexander/Omega Savage than with the NM-versions of those. So it was never big DF-content to begin with, because you just couldnt - and for most tiers probably still cant - clear it in DF.

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No idea where this is coming from. People were running Coil in DF back in ARR. The only fights in Coil that might need an organized group are T12, T13, T8, and T9. Those four have a lot of insta-kill mechanics that need to be managed in a specific way, but all the rest can be mostly headbutted into submission, especially now with the huge amount of stats sync has.

Personally, I DFed most fights in all three Coils on farm to get glamour at one point, so I know for a fact it's easily doable.

Even Final Coil in ARR when it was relatively new it was pretty easy to manage T10 and T11 in DF since the mechanics are very simple to just put numbers on people or tell each role what to do.

Second Coil Savage was an entirely different animal than the regular raids though, obviously, but there's no reason to run those besides for the titles since their loot is identical to normal.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

No idea where this is coming from. People were running Coil in DF back in ARR. The only fights in Coil that might need an organized group are T12, T13, T8, and T9. Those four have a lot of insta-kill mechanics that need to be managed in a specific way, but all the rest can be mostly headbutted into submission, especially now with the huge amount of stats sync has.

Personally, I DFed most fights in all three Coils on farm to get glamour at one point, so I know for a fact it's easily doable.

Even Final Coil in ARR when it was relatively new it was pretty easy to manage T10 and T11 in DF since the mechanics are very simple to just put numbers on people or tell each role what to do.

Second Coil Savage was an entirely different animal than the regular raids though, obviously, but there's no reason to run those besides for the titles since their loot is identical to normal.

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They were heavily nerfed and had echo by the time they made it to duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They were heavily nerfed and had echo by the time they made it to duty finder.

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What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

Most of the turns inside the Coils aren't terribly difficult, but some of the turns (T5, T9, T13, and to some extent T12) are very hard when done synced. Those turns are not doable unless (nearly) everyone knows the mechanics well - which is typically not the case with a DF group.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

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There was also a degree of difficulty that can't exactly be measured, that we were all a lot less fantastic at the game when it was young. Go back and watch some of those first clears, people missing auto attacks and GCD uptime left and right. Very few people talked about any sort of meta or fighting for that 99%. People generally weren't near as optimized back then.

So sure, it's easy to look back now and say it wasn't that difficult after we've gone through trial and tribulation with HW savages and SB ultimates. But back when it was relevant content it would've been way too hard for average DF groups (compared to normal raids now).

As for *why* they aren't included in raid roulettes now.. They probably could be, but there's still more mechanics in them than in any of the story mode raids.

no mounts or anything as rewards. only titles and glam

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Again, what 2nd coil savage was was pretty much the original version of the fights we already had before, prior to the various mechanics being nerfed. It was not a step beyond in difficulty in that regard, which is what ultimate is.

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I think you missed what Vidu was saying—Second Coil Savage was meant to be purely for the challenge, which is ultimately what Ultimate is: a challenge for the 1%. They may not be the same difficulty, but Second Coil Savage was significantly harder than anything else the game had offered at the time (even if they were meant to be reincarnations of the original unnerfed Second Coil, which it’s my understand that this is NOT the case). That’s what Ultimate is, which is why people are saying they are akin to Ultimate. Not that they ARE Ultimate.

Second Coil Savage has more mechanics present than regular Coil. I know in T9S, there are more meteor drops than in the regular T9. And this is from doing it unsynced at 60—I wasn’t playing when either were relevant, but T9S has more meteors to deal with than T9 did.

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I've seen ultimate. If you think 2nd coil savage compares in any way, you clearly haven't at least done the same. If you think I need to have completed the fights myself first to be able to know that, then, well, you're wrong on that too.

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I agree with Vidu, and I think experience is key. You can watch a fight all day long, but you don’t actually know what they’re like until you’re right in the middle of Bahamut’s, Nael’s, and Twintania’s divebombs. UCoB looks easier in video than it is in practice—saying that as someone who has actually been in the fight (although I haven’t cleared yet). Same for UwU (which I have cleared multiple times).

I’ve heard Second Coil Savage was unmatched in terms of difficulty back in the day. Much like UCoB and UwU still are.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

What is your point? They'd still be just as nerfed, and additionally nerfed with the new sync system. Which means they'd be even more doable in DF. People were running Coils just fine when they were released into DF, too.

The topic is about why Coil isn't ran as much, and it's mainly due to Coil not being in DF. And any reasoning about it being "too difficult" to do in DF now doesn't make any sense. Despite what people are saying they weren't even "savage" difficulty back then, either, before they were in DF. You could solo heal all of first Coil except maybe T4 when it was current (in a party capable of pulling it off), which speaks a lot towards that.

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Have you seen regular Duty Finder? They frequently tried to Vote Abandon on Susano and Lakshmi Normal Mode in Stormblood, and a lot of groups apparently have difficulty with Titania Normal Mode now (and PF struggles with her EX fight, for some reason). Back when Weeping City was the current 24-man, there were multiple threads demanding nerfs. Same with Dun Scaith. Same with Rabanastre. People asked for Final Steps of Faith story mode to be nerfed, too.

I don’t trust regular DF even with nerfed, Echo Coil.

As for the comment that they “weren’t Savage difficulty”—the original T5 had to be nerfed not too long after it released, because Twister was deemed to be “too unforgiving” (I believe only Blue Gartr had cleared it before this nerf happened). T6 was also nerfed, and I believe T7 was as well.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Which is still very wrong. Have you ever actually seen an ultimate fight?

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In essence, Valkyrie_Lenneth is telling the truth.

When Coil was released, it didn’t have a Normal and Savage tier with different degrees of difficulty. You just had “Coil”. While it was still relevant, people were complaining that Coil was either too difficult for most players at the time and felt that they were locked out of content. This was due to the fact that the story behind Coil was relevant to the events that happened leading up to A Realm Reborn.

On the other side, you had the Hardcore Raiding community who felt that Coil was too easy and needed a bigger challenge.

In order to accommodate both sides of the community, the team first introduced a Savage Tier for the Second Coil of Bahamut. This was an experiment to see how the Harcode raiding community would react to this level of difficulty. The mechanics they used in this particular tier were even more chaotic and unforgiving then their respective original versions.

Yoshida explained that when they were creating 8-man raids during that era, they would create the fights, test them in a debugging mode and then tune them down to a level they thought would be harsh enough. Since players wanted even more difficult versions, they upped their game and made the mechanics as punishing as they could make them. Just as an experiment how far they could go, before even the hardcore raiding community would say it was too hard.

In the meantime, the team was also looking for a way to make the 8-man raids more accessible for players who were only interested in the story behind it. Due to this, they officially introduced the “Normal” and “Savage” tier for all of the 8-main raids that followed Coil.

The level of difficulty of the original Coil (before the nerfs) was comparable with the Savage tier which was going to be introduced with Heavensward. This was confirmed by Yoshida during the Live Letters. However, after releasing the first Savage tier for Alexander, the difficulty curve was quite steep, resulting in a Raid tier which was more difficult than Coil before it. The nerfs to f.i. T7 (resulting in the Renauds not one-shotting players) came after the Third Coil of Bahamut was released.

However, the Savage tier from Alexander was still not as difficult as the Savage tier from the Second Coil of Bahamut. Since the Hardcore raiding community were not satisfied with the level of difficulty that the Alexander Savage brought to the game, the Savage tier from the Second Coil of Bahamut was used as an example for the “Ultimate”-tier they released not too long ago.

So, in regards to that, the difficulty level of these raid tiers would be something like this (from “easiest” to “hardest”):

- Heavensward Normal (and beyond)
- Regular Coil
- Heavensward Savage (and beyond)
- Second Coil of Bahamut Savage
- Ultimate (Unending Coil of Bahamut & The Weapon’s Refrain)

I doubt a typical DF party would be able to clear Imdugud, let alone Melusine, Avatar or Bahamut Prime.

This thread is filled with an Incredible amount of naysayers to coil difficulty.

T6-T9 Savage are some of the hardest fights designed in this game TO DATE. This is coming from someone who has done Ultimate and I'd dare anyone to go into those fights at minimum ilvl and come back talking about how "easy" they are lmao

Most people beat those fights when they were 20 ilevels above the instances and it was still unbelievably difficult. T7-T9 Savage are monsters with mechanics that survive the test of time and probably will do so for many years to come.

So yes, T7 - T9 Savage is on par with ultimates as stand alone fights. What makes Ultimates tough is simply the fact it's a gauntlet battle of mechanics (some that change like in UCOB, which adds another layer of difficulty).

Most people could kill Garuda, Ifrit, or Titan if the fight only focused on their portions individually. However, with the string element of the fight, so much room for human error is added in that wiping and resetting makes it seem much harder than most savage content.

@OP: Coil itself, is still considered a "savage", in its normal form. Only nerfs that ever got implemented were to normal mode which outside of ilvl increase to gear and echo implementation, were to HP and stopping some one shot mechanics in T6, T7, and T8.

Anyone saying DFing those fights was easy, was after it was nerfed and echo added. As when they were relevant, you couldn't even DF them not to mention most people were terrible on DF on average for them.