An argument for removing MP from the game

Hear me out a sec because I know a lot of people have an instant negative reaction to any kind of change. I think it's worth taking a moment to consider the implications of removing MP from the game. Please wait to read it all first before making a reaction.

MP is a bit of a relic which I think has run its course and now has fewer pros than cons. You're already regulated in how often you can use your powerful job actions by recast timers. The most noticeable lingering effect of MP is being a restriction on how long healers can sustain dpsing before they run dry, especially in spamming aoe dps moves like Art of War for minutes. You want to keep doing aoe dps in big pulls when healing isn't required but MP gets in the way eventually.

It also creates some oddities when MP management is used for a job mechanic instead of a job gauge, with BLM being the only job to guzzle consumables (super ether) to extend its rotation (triple flare or despair). The solution there would just be making a mana gauge for blm and drk to replace the outgoing MP resource, with the triple flare rotation being preserved by making manafont into a charged action (2 stacks).

We're already half way to removing MP by culling most MP utility actions (Manashift, Refresh) with only Lucid Dreaming remaining. Now I think it should just be removed entirely so healers can dps without restriction and without needing to keep pressing Lucid on cooldown. It's kind of an uninteresting band aid button like the old Invigorate for TP.


PROS
1) Healers can freely dps for long periods if MP is gone.

2) Remove some more UI clutter and further reduce memory footprint of HUD elements. Many jobs (War, Drg, etc) don't use MP already but still have the resource displayed.

3) Unify job gauges as the only resource management tracker for all jobs, also eliminating ether consumption for certain jobs.

4) Cooldowns/recast timers and casting times are already sufficient to regulate the use of spells, with MP being a superfluous resource layered on top of that system which rarely affects decision making. If resurrection was free, it'd still have a penalty in the form of a very long cast time if swiftcast is on cooldown. Rdm doesn't have to deal with cast times but its verraise could just be changed into an ability with a 30s (or so) recast time if the MP cost penalty is no longer a factor.

CONS
1) Have to repurpose ether type items and possibly some enemy actions like Magic Hammer.

2) Some people may have a nostalgia for MP in Final Fantasy games I guess, as is the case with Protect.

But there will be healer who just spam aoe heal in the entire fight... and not to mention infinity rdm raise...

So you wanna make the game boring and less challenging by removing most if not all jobs main resource. No thanks.

BLM's everywhere just creamed their pants and need new equipment for flare x infinite.

Let's remove HP too, and defensive cd's so it's only DPS gain and tank enmity for tank stance as Tank gods.

I'd rather just have non-casters have a resource again, instead of a random static blue bar graphic.

That being said...

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

So you wanna make the game boring and less challenging by removing most if not all jobs main resource. No thanks.

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Mana is relevant to at most 4 jobs' gameplay at present.

So the BLM wants MP removed? Fine, but Flare should be put on a 2 min CD then. You also need to now fill a job gauge to use FIV and BIV (which then uses parts of it and you need to keep building it up).

See where I'm going with this? TP was easy to remove due to it being a very simple resource. MP on the other hand is different. And for them to remove it would mean they would have to rework all the caster jobs so it balanced. Since they are way more tied to there resource then Physical jobs were to TP.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Hear me out a sec because I know a lot of people have an instant negative reaction to any kind of change. I think it's worth taking a moment to consider the implications of removing MP from the game. Please wait to read it all first before making a reaction.

MP is a bit of a relic which I think has run its course and now has fewer pros than cons. You're already regulated in how often you can use your powerful job actions by recast timers. The most noticeable lingering effect of MP is being a restriction on how long healers can sustain dpsing before they run dry, especially in spamming aoe dps moves like Art of War for minutes. You want to keep doing aoe dps in big pulls when healing isn't required but MP gets in the way eventually.

It also creates some oddities when MP management is used for a job mechanic instead of a job gauge, with BLM being the only job to guzzle consumables (super ether) to extend its rotation (triple flare or despair). The solution there would just be making a mana gauge for blm and drk to replace the outgoing MP resource, with the triple flare rotation being preserved by making manafont into a charged action (2 stacks).

We're already half way to removing MP by culling most MP utility actions (Manashift, Refresh) with only Lucid Dreaming remaining. Now I think it should just be removed entirely so healers can dps without restriction and without needing to keep pressing Lucid on cooldown. It's kind of an uninteresting band aid button like the old Invigorate for TP.


PROS
1) Healers can freely dps for long periods if MP is gone.

2) Remove some more UI clutter and further reduce memory footprint of HUD elements. Many jobs (War, Drg, etc) don't use MP already but still have the resource displayed.

3) Unify job gauges as the only resource management tracker for all jobs, also eliminating ether consumption for certain jobs.

4) Cooldowns/recast timers and casting times are already sufficient to regulate the use of spells, with MP being a superfluous resource layered on top of that system which rarely affects decision making. If resurrection was free, it'd still have a penalty in the form of a very long cast time if swiftcast is on cooldown. Rdm doesn't have to deal with cast times but its verraise could just be changed into an ability with a 30s (or so) recast time if the MP cost penalty is no longer a factor.

CONS
1) Have to repurpose ether type items and possibly some enemy actions like Magic Hammer.

2) Some people may have a nostalgia for MP in Final Fantasy games I guess, as is the case with Protect.

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bad idea I'd go into depth about the poorness of this idea but I'm sure theres others who are more eleoquent.

Since I didn't feel like stalking your character profile down, I have to ask, have you played a healer? If so, you should understand perhaps a little bit better why removing MP would be a bad idea. Cooldowns and casting times are not enough to regulate the usage of spells. Let's look at your example with Raise; if a cooldown timer gets slapped onto it, what am I going to do when 2 of my DPS and the cohealer just bit it to an AoE? Right now I can choose to raise them all at once if I need them for an upcoming DPS check, or I can space it out a little bit more if I have room to breathe. The addition of a recast timer in this scenario completely robs me of that decision.

What about normal healing spells? For right now, a skilled healer knows how to pick the right tool for the right job and it's easy to tell when because they don't have nearly as many problems with MP. They'll recognize when a Benefic will do the job over a Benefic 2. Without MP, what's to stop me from just spamming Benefic 2 on everything? You can't add a cooldown to a spell like this, because of how damage is delivered in the game.

Also, Square Enix does not want healers to freely DPS for long periods of time. That's why they neutered our DPS kits and lowered our potencies.

It seems to me the only reason people want MP gone is because they don't want a bar that does nothing hanging around on their screen. I get that, it was annoying for me with TP. You don't have to get rid of MP to do that. Just make it a UI option.

HP removal, when?
Pros:
Just dps
cons:
none!

I want to point out that this can be done to a degree if handled correctly. There are certain spells that shouldn't be free of cost, but there are plenty that could have their cost removed.

Let's look at Dark Knight as an example of how this can be handled. Most of their actions are completely free, but there are a few that have a hefty 3000 MP cost. Now imagine if this idea were applied to Red Mage, with all spells being free of cost except for Verraise which costs 3000 MP. (Let's also assume that Lucid Dreaming is gone for this example, much like how Invigorate is now gone.) Red Mage now has a soft cap on the number of raises they can hand out during a fight, which is already a thing with the current MP system, except in this example, Red Mage will never be unable to attack with spells due to a lack of resources.

I don't think MP should be universally removed from every spell for every job, but there is room for change that can result in casters feeling less taxing to play.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

I want to point out that this can be done to a degree if handled correctly. There are certain spells that shouldn't be free of cost, but there are plenty that could have their cost removed.

Let's look at Dark Knight as an example of how this can be handled. Most of their actions are completely free, but there are a few that have a hefty 3000 MP cost. Now imagine if this idea were applied to Red Mage, with all spells being free of cost except for Verraise which costs 3000 MP. (Let's also assume that Lucid Dreaming is gone for this example, much like how Invigorate is now gone.) Red Mage now has a soft cap on the number of raises they can hand out during a fight, which is already a thing with the current MP system, except in this example, Red Mage will never be unable to attack with spells due to a lack of resources.

I don't think MP should be universally removed from every spell for every job, but there is room for change that can result in casters feeling less taxing to play.

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While certainly more workable, I don't know that I like your RDM example specifically in a way that can be applied to other jobs. It doesn't add much, admittedly, but I do like the little bit of complexity that comes with having to appropriately manage my MP to help out the healers without running myself dry and being unable to attack.

The only thing I can see as a problem is that mages (healer and casters) are punished by mp and death, where as melee and ranged are not regardless of death and can continue trucking through the dungeon or raid/endgame after they get up.

However, with the new timer on cd for lucid, I haven't found myself in any situation where mp is an issue after death and being raised (once in awhile). But we'll see how adjustments are made for the future. Only time will tell.

All classes in game should be designed around two factors:

1st their own individual Gameplay Mechanics

2nd thei skill and traits Designs , some classes more, some classes less. But there definetely may not exist no class that makes absolute no usage of MP like now.

Every class in this game has to be able to utilize magical Powers, but each class should do that in a different own way.

Casters may have skills which cost directly MP for casting their Magic Spells, a Bard in the otherhand would use it to keep up the effect to keep up their magical buffing Songs or to buff their arrows with magical effects to cause side effects.
Warriors use Magic to perform skills that let their physicals powers become temporary better and so on - its all just only a matter of skill and class design and by this it is absolutely possible to change this game to one, where all classes use somehow MP, so that MP as a ressource mechanic isn't useless but has in fact its uses for specific skills, dark knight is the best example for such a hybrid gameplay for a physical class that has skills which cost MP to limit the usage of the skills this way, instead of giving it totally absurd high recharge times

PS editet terrible typos out, written the post from Iphone with stupid Auto Corrct function naturally in German for me xD

I don't see how doing away with MP would work well. Either you're making it too easy for magic users to fling spells all willy-nilly, or you're making it too difficult for magic users by taking away their ability to effectively manage their resources and instead giving them absurd cool downs.

I understand where you’re coming from, but as others have said removing MP would take away management aspects from a lot of jobs. Right now we have Paladin, Dark Knight, White Mage, Scholar, Astrologian, Black Mage, Summoner and Red Mage all requiring some kind of MP management that would require reworks if removed.

No thanks. I would rather MP just be used. Even melee can use it as a resource bar, no need to bring TP back.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Mana is relevant to at most 4 jobs' gameplay at present.

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Might wanna check again.

- Paladin
- Dark Knight
- Red Mage
- Summoner
- Scholar
- White Mage
- Astrologian
- Black Mage

8, nearly half the combat jobs (or 9 if you wanna include Blue Mage, which would make it half of the jobs) use MP.

And it would be best class design, if they ALL would use somehow MP, just in differrent ways, otherwise the other half of all the classes has always a MP bar there, that is completely useless to them and which is in the first place the only reason why this whole thread exists and why people want MP to get removed, because currently is MP same as useless garbage by class design, as it was TP for Caster Classes before of Shadowbringers.

SE solved simply said NOTHING, they just moved only the root issue over from casters to physical classes. A real genius was there at work

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Originally Posted by Crimson_Hunter

Might wanna check again.

- Paladin
- Dark Knight
- Red Mage
- Summoner
- Scholar
- White Mage
- Astrologian
- Black Mage

8, nearly half the combat jobs (or 9 if you wanna include Blue Mage, which would make it half of the jobs) use MP.

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• AST, WHM, SCH:

  It's less that MP is a mechanic to SCH and AST than Lucid Dreaming is one of their abilities. If you use it and are not painfully overhealing, MP is a non-mechanic. WHM at least has some, albeit mostly negligible, reason to fit MP-expensive spells into Thin Air, and thus some interaction with MP beyond simply hitting a two-minute CD once it comes off CD if not already over 85% MP or so.

• SMN, RDM:

  MP solely limits how much rezzing SMN and RDM can do. It is essentially your rez-meter and a faint further means of punishing death. It is not a core mechanic. You have a two-minute CD and no further interactions with MP as a concept in any way.

• This leaves PLD, BLM, DRK, and (tenuously) WHM. Four jobs. At most.

Tbh honest mp could be removed and just be added back as job gauge to caster, pld and drk.
Even RDM and SMN could have their mp removed as only rez makes it relevant. (they could make rez have a charge system to compensate for instance. Same as mp if your spells cost 0. You could only do X rez per Y minutes.)

Anyway, this would also free up more UI space.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Tbh honest mp could be removed and just be added back as job gauge to caster, pld and drk.
Even RDM and SMN could have their mp removed as only rez makes it relevant. (they could make rez have a charge system to compensate for instance. Same as mp if your spells cost 0. You could only do X rez per Y minutes.)

Anyway, this would also free up more UI space.

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Mm. Every job would then just have their 1-2 necessary gauges:

• Healers - SCH: MP/AF. WHM: MP/Lilies. AST: MP/Seals.
• Tanks - DRK: MP/Blood. PLD: MP/Oath Gauge. GNB: Cartridges. WAR: Beast Gauge. (Darkside scrapped in the meantime, as it's presently a non-mechanic past the first GCD.)
• Melee - MNK: GL/Chakra. SAM: Sen/Kenki. DRG: BotD/Eyes. NIN: Huton/Ninki.
• Ranged - BRD: Songs/Spirit. MCH: Heat/Battery. Dancer: Steps/Espirit.
• Casters - BLM: MP/AF+UI+Enoc. SMN: Aether(trail)/Trance. RDM: Black Mana/White Mana.

Adjustments:

• Lucid Dreaming removed from Casters as the only MP-user among them has... infinite MP, except when unable to benefit from Lucid Dreaming anyways.
• Rezzes now sacrifice some manner of gauge for the privilege, making SMN and RDM rezzes consistently quick and responsive but include their "Rez tax" via the gauges themselves -- rather than some rarely felt MP limitations (given the latest MP cost reductions). SMN and RDM rDPS (not pDPS) increased to that of BLMs.
• Similarly, BLM gains an MP-expensive Apocatastasis (usable on others or self) on a 90s cooldown, nullifying the next source of magical raid damage against the target ["raid" as in 'does not work on spells which marked the target ally or were cast targeting the target ally'], stacking with similar effects, to offset the lack of rez.

Again, I'd rather keep MP (or any job-by-job rename) as a second or third resource for each job, with different purposes between each role. I'd love for MCH to use it on turrets, for instance, instead of just having turrets be summoned, effectively, on a SkS-affected CD that punishes unfortunately-timed downtime. I'd love for Bard to use it on their songs. I'd love for Monk to start at a low maximum MP and greatly increase it as GL increases, thereby also increasing the MP regeneration rate, using said MP for both utilities and added damage and flexibility in their damage dealing. I wouldn't mind seeing the extra gauge return as something like a Sanity/Frenzy mechanic for Warrior. Etc., etc.

But, as MP stands now, I can't argue that it can and probably should be removed from all but the six jobs that actually make use of it (only four of which, DRK, PLD, BLM, and WHM even actively manipulate it in any way).

Is there any other class than BLM for which MP gates an optimal rotation? If not, then I agree MP should be removed from every class except BLM.

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Originally Posted by PondHollow

Is there any other class than BLM for which MP gates an optimal rotation? If not, then I agree MP should be removed from every class except BLM.

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It doesn't bar anything rotationally, but MP does at least provide a granular measure of your (# of) remaining casts or abilities available on PLD and DRK, respectively.
So long as PLD's MP generation is not so stringent that every bit of MP must be conserved for Requiescat, then it cannot wholly be made redundant by Requiescat's duration alone (with Req being buffed and HS being nerfed, and both given at the same level, to show their new intended play).
Likewise, as DRK's MP costs encompass 3 spells, 2 very distinct from the last, it probably wouldn't quite do to force the interaction all onto timers and timer-trimming instead.

Additionally, it signals to healers that spamming AoE incessantly is probably not good play, and can at least feign that Cure, Benefic, and Physick are worth having on your bars (though I suppose one could consider that a demerit instead...).

While MP could be removed (and replaced with a job resource for those that meaningfully use it) I really don't want to see FFXIV's combat made even shallower than it currently is...

Personally, I would prefer MP to be made even more important as a resource and something that needs to be managed by all jobs, but most especially healers. This would then allow more interaction between classes, and place an emphasis on mechanics and mitigation over DPS a means of difficultly; i.e. if healers had a limited number of heals before going OOM you could create a balance between survival and DPS for difficult content, which would then allow asymmetrical balance between jobs that offer different advantages (e.g. MCH = damage + mitigation, BRD = resource sustain, DNC = utility + boosted damage).

* As a side note I think removing TP was a mistake and that it should have been given meaning for all jobs; e.g. Healer DPS abilities could have used TP instead of MP and certain buffs on otherwise MP based classes could have used TP as a soft cooldown (which would then have made TP regain meaningful to all classes).

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

While MP could be removed (and replaced with a job resource for those that meaningfully use it) I really don't want to see FFXIV's combat made even shallower than it currently is...

Personally, I would prefer MP to be made even more important as a resource and something that needs to be managed by all jobs, but most especially healers. This would then allow more interaction between classes, and place an emphasis on mechanics and mitigation over DPS a means of difficultly; i.e. if healers had a limited number of heals before going OOM you could create a balance between survival and DPS for difficult content, which would then allow asymmetrical balance between jobs that offer different advantages (e.g. MCH = damage + mitigation, BRD = resource sustain, DNC = utility + boosted damage).

* As a side note I think removing TP was a mistake and that it should have been given meaning for all jobs; e.g. Healer DPS abilities could have used TP instead of MP and certain buffs on otherwise MP based classes could have used TP as a soft cooldown (which would then have made TP regain meaningful to all classes).

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To be fair, as long as it isn't removed from the few jobs who actually respond to it in their gameplay (so, when it's a resource that is meaningfully used), it's not like it'd make the game any shallower.

But, I would like to see it returned to prominence for the rest in some way that doesn't just involve hitting LD/Invigorate on cooldown...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be fair, as long as it isn't removed from the few jobs who actually respond to it in their gameplay (so, when it's a resource that is meaningfully used), it's not like it'd make the game any shallower.

But, I would like to see it returned to prominence for the rest in some way that doesn't just involve hitting LD/Invigorate on cooldown...

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True. I meant more in the sense that MP is only common resource left and that removing it would prevent any interaction between jobs with regards to resource management... not that resource management / interaction is a thing in 5.X, but it used to be and it could be again (as long as MP remains in the game).

This is how I sed MP being use for each Class:

Bard: uses MP to buff the Efficiency and Durations of their Songs, Skills like Troubadour for example should ne used for this
Machinist: uses MP to convert it into Ether which fuels the Energy Bar to call Mechs AND Turrets, both should be useable together, bring back ground targeting, aoe turret und its explosion skill, Remove just heat and rework the skills that required it, its currently just 1 - 1 gameplay mechanic for a single skill is pointless
Dancer: same as bard, buffs dance efficieny n durations with mp costing skills
Dark Knight: Specific Attack n Self Buff Skills cost MP
Paladin: Specific Attack n Self Buff Skills cost MP as like more powerful Tank Skills to buff Defense Powers of your Group and to protect from lethal damage, that would otherwise kill others
Warrior: Uses MP for self buffs to boost up stats, max health ect to become the true Berserkers that they should BE, also as Job Name, warriors are we all
Gunbreakef: Converts MP into special Magical Bullets, that if used, deal more damage, have more range und can cause sideeffects
Monk: Uses MP for Elemental Stances
Samurai: Uses MP, for gap closers, and as additional activatable buff up cost of Kenki Skills to charge Kenki quicker up in have more potence as lobg you hav mp
Ninja:Uses MP for Ninki Skills and to convert it to required Chakra to perform Ninjutsu with Mudras, due to the usage getting jore limited with Chakra, Ninjutsu become more powerful to compensate, us for gap closers as well, ninjas should be the most mobile job of all
Dragoon: Uses MP for Jumps, making them more mobile ad well, nearly same as like Ninke, less often, but longer distances, Activating Dragon Powers should cost M
Casters of any sort: Uses MP for casting Spells

Like said, basically should every class use mp, there is no good reason why this shouldn't be the case, its only a matter of skill design n balance

Honestly, I just think lucid needs to be lowered below 60 seconds. Maybe 30 seconds or 15 seconds. Make it reasonable for recovery of mp quicker. Since a lot of mechanics for BLM has been pulled (to help provide extra mp support to healers/bards/mch/dnc the same).

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

Honestly, I just think lucid needs to be lowered below 60 seconds. Maybe 30 seconds or 15 seconds. Make it reasonable for recovery of mp quicker. Since a lot of mechanics for BLM has been pulled (to help provide extra mp support to healers/bards/mch/dnc the same).

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You already have nearly infinite MP... How the heck could you even make use of that much MP generation?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You already have nearly infinite MP... How the heck could you even make use of that much MP generation?

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For BLM, it's not a matter of inf mp for them. But the tools to give mp to healers or other mages as needed or necessary (mana shift before pre shb).

This is mostly for other castah's and healers adjustments since removing mp would be out of the question. Melee has no interruptions that they need to brace for (if death or otherwise), where as healers and casters overall still get punished by the system in some ways. I recall someone earlier in this forum or another that rdm's could still run out of mp in a 13min fight overall (with mechanics added and assuming no deaths upon a party) in a raid situation, which would be resolved by either removing the mp (which won't happen) or reducing the cast times further down to 30 seconds or even 15 seconds. 60 seconds isn't a lot of time, but still a long time, somewhat? lol.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

For BLM, it's not a matter of inf mp for them. But the tools to give mp to healers or other mages as needed or necessary (mana shift before pre shb).

This is mostly for other castah's and healers adjustments since removing mp would be out of the question. Melee has no interruptions that they need to brace for (if death or otherwise), where as healers and casters overall still get punished by the system in some ways. I recall someone earlier in this forum or another that rdm's could still run out of mp in a 13min fight overall (with mechanics added and assuming no deaths upon a party) in a raid situation, which would be resolved by either removing the mp (which won't happen) or reducing the cast times further down to 30 seconds or even 15 seconds. 60 seconds isn't a lot of time, but still a long time, somewhat? lol.

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By nearly infinite MP, I meant the healers. Short of mass-rezzing, MP is effectively a non-mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

By nearly infinite MP, I meant the healers. Short of mass-rezzing, MP is effectively a non-mechanic.

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Spam those heals maybe? MORE DPS!? INF HOLY SPAM FOR WHM!? XD

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

Spam those heals maybe? MORE DPS!? INF HOLY SPAM FOR WHM!? XD

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Again, it already is practically infinite, so why do you think they need Lucid Dreaming on a 15-second CD? Or are you just trolling, after all?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, it already is practically infinite, so why do you think they need Lucid Dreaming on a 15-second CD?

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I'm mostly noticing this issue when I'm just doing regular content. Maybe not everyone is having this issue. DPS wise, rdm & smn seem to have this issue as content progresses (as does ilvl). Maybe not all healers, but those of the most unfortunate of events. I might be missing something with their skills (seeing as mine is only WHM50). But seeing healers as a whole at 80, don't seem to be so infinite (even on a normal pack of x3 mobs on a dungeon run pull). This includes a WHM spamming holy fof half their mp pool, and healing the tank for the rest of it (but still coming up just short of 15% of their mp pool) in that pack. Lucid pops once during this instance (that I see), but still boggles down the mp pool enough for them to critical levels. Not quite empty just yet. By then, everything should just about be dead (unless there's that one dps who decides to single target the whole time, which I also see often).

Again, this isn't a means to everyone, and while this occasionally happens from time to time, I just don't see the infinite source of mp you're referring to (just from observation playing dps melee/mages/ranged and tanks).

I'm actually of the opposite mind. I'd rather *all* classes made use of MP. In fact, I feel a number of the gauges could even just be rolled into MP. PLD and DRK could have Oath and Blood converted to MP (and MP costs tuned accordingly). Samurai Kenki could just be MP. Monk Chakra could be MP (TFC could just cost 10k MP, and anything that opens a chakra would just instead regen 2k MP). Even Dragoon. Blood of the Dragon could just turn into a MP drain, with Wheeling Thrust/Fang and Claw regenerating a certain amount of MP. Maybe put the Jumps on MP, so there's some amount of balancing required.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

I'm mostly noticing this issue when I'm just doing regular content. Maybe not everyone is having this issue. DPS wise, rdm & smn seem to have this issue as content progresses (as does ilvl). Maybe not all healers, but those of the most unfortunate of events. I might be missing something with their skills (seeing as mine is only WHM50). But seeing healers as a whole at 80, don't seem to be so infinite (even on a normal pack of x3 mobs on a dungeon run pull). This includes a WHM spamming holy fof half their mp pool, and healing the tank for the rest of it (but still coming up just short of 15% of their mp pool) in that pack. Lucid pops once during this instance (that I see), but still boggles down the mp pool enough for them to critical levels. Not quite empty just yet. By then, everything should just about be dead (unless there's that one dps who decides to single target the whole time, which I also see often).

Again, this isn't a means to everyone, and while this occasionally happens from time to time, I just don't see the infinite source of mp you're referring to (just from observation playing dps melee/mages/ranged and tanks).

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Melee don't use MP. Tanks use MP only in the same way that BLMs do. DRK specifically should NOT have infinite MP and it is fine that they're bottoming out during raid debuffs; they should be. As for the rest, that's either a recent death or just really poor play.

This is like complaining that occassionally tanks still lose threat, so every tank should have their enmity stance modifier increased by a further factor of 4. 40x enmity for all the tanks, hurrah!

Lucid Dreaming cooldown is awfully short these days... Can't totally remove MP across the board as things currently stand, but it is clearly becoming less important since Lucid Dreaming is already going the way of Diversion and Invigorate. This conversation will become more relevant as things continue to go in this direction, but for now I definitely don't see the harm in making an option to make MP invisible for all the melee DPS and ranged physical DPS, and warrior and gunbreaker. I don't think a single ability across all of those affects MP in any way.

All the magic jobs still use MP, of course, as well as paladin and dark knight. And paladin and dark knight's blood and oath gauges could probably take up that function. Not much you can spend oath gauge on, and only in increments of 50. Almost can be retooled as a binary switch if the max is 100 and you can spend at minimum 50. Could change it to a charged action, since it's basically at stages of 0, 1, and 2 uses, with nothing in between. Blood gauge is similarly not all that complex or that utilized, same 50/100 paradigm. Could just light up 2 dots like gunbreaker's "gauge".

So that would leave MP as purely for disciples of magic to see. And only magic users having MP, magic points, makes sense. Doesn't make sense for a dragoon or a monk's abilities to be magically based. And I guess that is also why none of their abilities interact with MP currently.

On a sidenote, I do appreciate gunbreaker being a tank that uses something other than a 50/100 gauge. Warrior at least has some stuff that uses 20 beast gauge, so that makes the 100 necessary to think about and more of a fluid resource.

just no, i already feel bad about TP, Tank and non magical DPS can spam their skills like crazy without end, if the same happens to mages the game is totally broken, especially for jobs like BLM, WHM and RDM.