Why are people complaining about SMN damage?

Hello, I've seen plenty of people complain about SMN right now, including about it's damage. I don't really get it. I have a SMN and a BARD at lvl 80, with not very good equipment on either, and on both I can get the Innocence Dummy down to 5% on the test outside Eulmore, but SMN's dummy has a lot more HP AFAIK.

Also I do this while not looking up "optimal rotations" and using a LOT of ruin2, because ruin3 is annoying to use with the pet skills, bahamut and phoenix (I think you lose wyrmwaves by trying to use ruin3, so i just go with 2 to maximize mobility and wyrmwaves). So even by not casting, which I think can reduce my DPS but can make the other stuff easier to use I get more damage on SMN.

Not to mention Bard ~is not~ a support class. What do we have for support? a useless healing boost skill that i should take off my bar bc im not using that? or that little party buff that gives 20% DH every eternity that goes by (which seems a lot...20%. But its 20% DH, thats what? 20% * 25% bonus dmg = 5% bonus dmg, the same as aetherpact). Actually, scratch that. It's worse than aetherpact, since the latter buffs yourself as well, while the bard buff only buffs the other 7 dudes.

AND summoner can even ress, which is awesome. I saw a dude complaining about SMN and RDM having resses bc it drains MP....like seriously? You can save the run by ressing a healer and you think your MP is more precious? Healers spend MUCH more MP right now and can handle it, just use lucid dreaming. Not to mention you can always choose to not ress if you'd like.

Than there's the fact that if mage's LB is something a bit nice to use occasionally, ranged physickal LB is complete garbage, having a long but thin AOE that makes it hard to actually hit many mobs and doing less damage (not to mention the fact that the tank can even move a bit and make you miss lol).

Also, on actual fights i don't see much of a drop on either of these two classes DPS. I imagine I would lose a lot of dps if I played BLM from a dummy to an actual fight, since BLM actually casts stuff, but I don't find that to be the case with SMN.

I think summoner just need powerfull egi attacks, they are pretty damn weak right now (except for enkindle which is ok but cooldown is too big for its damage.
Egi assault I and II are a joke, you just use them to proc ruin IV, and the moment you use them you are actually losing DPS.
Egi auto attacks are what? 2/10 of ruin's damage? Other things are fine.

Maybe because SMN was like top 3 on FFLogs and now it's like somewhere in the middle while being even busier? I dunno just a thought

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

Also, on actual fights i don't see much of a drop on either of these two classes DPS. I imagine I would lose a lot of dps if I played BLM from a dummy to an actual fight, since BLM actually casts stuff, but I don't find that to be the case with SMN.

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This is where I question if you even play SMN, cause we are so not that mobile caster we were in SB, if you think this then you are mistaken. BLM is the mobile caster now.

Also the difference between RDM and SMN dps is abysmal in most cases where RDM can out dps a SMN simply cause of its complexity, and how much of a mess it is. This is the same issue we had in SB with BLM and SMN. We got to be mobile and out dps them for a long time until they got fixed.

Now we are in that same boat of being less mobile and doing significantly less dps then we were doing from a percent stand point. Also you need to read those threads they are less about dps and more about how clunky the job has become.

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BLM is the mobile caster now.

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Well, BLM is the one I don't play. And while i get that they have teleports to and from their lines, don't they still need to cast basically all skills?

And what is the reduced mobility is SMN compared to previous SMN?
Just the increased difference between ruin2 and 3? Because if that's it, with more ruin4 procs, two trances, the need to interweave oGCDs and to make sure you get the wyrmwaves all make you not need to stop and cast ruin3 that often. Even against a dummy, I at least, do more dmg if I don't try too hard to use ruin3.

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

Well, BLM is the one I don't play. And while i get that they have teleports to and from their lines, don't they still need to cast basically all skills?

And what is the reduced mobility is SMN compared to previous SMN?
Just the increased difference between ruin2 and 3? Because if that's it, with more ruin4 procs, two trances, the need to interweave oGCDs and to make sure you get the wyrmwaves all make you not need to stop and cast ruin3 that often. Even against a dummy, I at least, do more dmg if I don't try too hard to use ruin3.

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The fact that you can’t move with either Demi summons or they will stop attacking. You are only mobile in DWT....unless you don’t care about your pet attacking.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

The fact that you can’t move with either Demi summons or they will stop attacking. You are only mobile in DWT....unless you don’t care about your pet attacking.

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And we skip DWT to line everything up with party buffs lol

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

And we skip DWT to line everything up with party buffs lol

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Exactly! Tri disaster and a couple ruins then bam back to a ruin turret

I don’t know about actual DPS values, but I feel like most of the issues are based around the large amount of oGCDs that need to be used with the addition of Egi Assaults & Charges, plus managing Energy Drain / Siphon, Aetherflow charges, Dreadwyrm Trance, Summon Bahamut / Firebird Trance, on top of DoT management and Egi placement for Devotion.

That said, personally I do really enjoy Summoner and I feel like being able to stack Ruin IV on top of having so many instant casts during Trances compensates for the volume of oGCD. But I think when people are complaining about Summoner DPS, it’s more about how they do it than what number it is. That’s just how I’ve understood it though

Well, I guess I only have SCH (duh) and BRD at 80, so I'm comparing SMN to 2 of the only 4 jobs people are actually more disappointed in than SMN.

But I have some more considerations:

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

RDM can out dps a SMN simply cause of its complexity

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Not to say "git gud", but isnt that the whole point of having different complexity jobs? If you're bad you should deal more DPS with an easier class. If you're good you should DPS more with the harder class, and if you are So-So maybe deal equal damage lol.

I mean, back in stormblood I leveled MCH and I really enjoyed it leveling up, but at end-game stuff I found out I sucked hard and was shit with it even though it was one of the 4 top jobs of the moment, together with ninja, bard and dragoon. Then I tried RDM and SMN and I found out I dealt more dmg as RDM and even more as SMN. So maybe I'm a "so-so" player.

Also, in most duties I've done and tracked DPS this expansion, other SMN were good and most ninjas dealt really low dmg. Probably because it's a hard job most people don't use it right.

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

Not to say "git gud", but isnt that the whole point of having different complexity jobs? If you're bad you should deal more DPS with an easier class. If you're good you should DPS more with the harder class, and if you are So-So maybe deal equal damage lol.

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Exactly. And SMN doesn't do enough damage to justify all the hoops we need to jump to play it optimally. It just feels not worth it. Especially when you can play BLM and do tons more damage with less effort.
But like... damage is whatever, if job wasn't a buggy mess and actually fun to play and optimize instead of garbage r4 stacking damage wouldn't be a problem. Tho I think people would still complain but it would've been less justified.

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

Well, I guess I only have SCH (duh) and BRD at 80, so I'm comparing SMN to 2 of the only 4 jobs people are actually more disappointed in than SMN.

But I have some more considerations:



Not to say "git gud", but isnt that the whole point of having different complexity jobs? If you're bad you should deal more DPS with an easier class. If you're good you should DPS more with the harder class, and if you are So-So maybe deal equal damage lol.

I mean, back in stormblood I leveled MCH and I really enjoyed it leveling up, but at end-game stuff I found out I sucked hard and was shit with it even though it was one of the 4 top jobs of the moment, together with ninja, bard and dragoon. Then I tried RDM and SMN and I found out I dealt more dmg as RDM and even more as SMN. So maybe I'm a "so-so" player.

Also, in most duties I've done and tracked DPS this expansion, other SMN were good and most ninjas dealt really low dmg. Probably because it's a hard job most people don't use it right.

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You completely missed every point obviously! Why deal equal dps on a much more complex and punishing job. BLM is an example while not complex they suffered because of mechanics in previous expansions hence why they had high dps to compensate. Also to help you out my dps is great while I notice other SMNs doing sub 9k dps in full 440 gear all the time.

Stop your idiocy cause it looks bad and also NINs don’t deal low dmg cause they suck they deal low dmg cause they are under tunned.

Well, my idiocy looks bad but your anger issues dont? Calm down please.

Also, I don't know how much damage SMN are doing in relation to RDM. I just responded to a specific comment you posted saying that complexity makes them deal less damage:

"Complexity makes X deal less damage than Y" means that complexity makes people unable to fully use its capacities and that lowers its damage.
To which I responded "yeah, that's the point".
And now you are saying "they do equal damage even though they are harder", meaning "if played to their full capacity they still do the same damage".

That could very well be true, but that's not something that was said anywhere in this thread beforehand. So don't say I missed the point, when you didn't make it to begin with.

Also, while I didn't compare SMN to RDM, I did compare them to BRDs. BRDs do way lower damage, are also complex, and don't really have much party buffs. They have one that is +- the same as SMN has AND they can't ress, which is a nice utility when you are not part of a really good team. And do you know who isn't part of a really good team? most people.

And what I meant by really low dps on ninjas is around 5-6k, lower than tanks. So it's not a question of being undertuned. And I mentioned ninjas because people seem pretty happy with them, undertuned or not.

Damage jobs don't get balanced by complexity, nor should they. Otherwise easy jobs would never find a place in any raid group. They get balanced by their damage+support skills. That's why blm with exactly 0 support is the top dd. That's why ninja and dancer are the worst damagers. That's also why the damage gap between summoner and red mage is only as high as the gap betwen their support skills-

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

And what I meant by really low dps on ninjas is around 5-6k, lower than tanks. So it's not a question of being undertuned. And I mentioned ninjas because people seem pretty happy with them, undertuned or not.

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Yes it is, not only did ninja get more complex, but instead of potency being tuned properly to keep our personal dps in the middle of the pack we got nerfed instead. The job is fun to play yes but it doesn't make up for that. So please leave us out of your caster debate; we have enough problems of our own.

If you're going to be talking about dps numbers it helps to use the tools available to actually compare them: fflogs.com

The reason I dropped smn was strictly feelings based. The business of the rotation and the lack of flow combined with what felt like very little payoff. I want to love smn really bad, it was my first job that I ever leveled. But aside from the pure aesthetics of summoning pheonix and bahamut which are awesome, actually playing the job just feels bad.

Even if you ignore damage, and ignore complexity, SMN has one glaring issue that trumps everything. It's a multitasking class that just fails at feeling good multitasking. Even the modern Bard feels really good to play, despite its thematic clash because it lost most of its support abilities in ShB, which is 90% of the problems Bard has right now. Bard, Machinist, Dancer, Red Mage, and Ninja are all multitasking-oriented jobs to different degrees, and every last one of them has a flow to it. The worst offender is Machinist, not because its rotation is bad, but because it is massively lag intolerant and anyone over a ping of 60 can find themselves exceptionally frustrated playing it because of that alone.

Summoner has no flow. It clashes, grates, and grinds with itself. Every time I have talked about Summoner, I have constantly brought up that it is clunky and cumbersome to play, never once personally bringing up damage as a reason why it feels bad outside of specific abilities that just don't feel good to use because damage is a temporary problem. Summoner needs a lot of help because of all of this.

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Originally Posted by Miskatonic

If you're going to be talking about dps numbers it helps to use the tools available to actually compare them: fflogs.com

The reason I dropped smn was strictly feelings based. The business of the rotation and the lack of flow combined with what felt like very little payoff. I want to love smn really bad, it was my first job that I ever leveled. But aside from the pure aesthetics of summoning pheonix and bahamut which are awesome, actually playing the job just feels bad.

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The people talking about DPS are completely missing the point. People are complaining because the class isn't fun for them to play. Doing less damage is okay if the class is enjoyable and that's your preference. It's the sacrifice you make for your choice.

But the class at least needs to feel fun to play. It feels bad. It has no cadence. It's just a staccato of button mashing that feels like rolling your face across the keyboard for no benefit.

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

Also I do this while not looking up "optimal rotations" and using a LOT of ruin2, because ruin3 is annoying to use with the pet skills, bahamut and phoenix (I think you lose wyrmwaves by trying to use ruin3, so i just go with 2 to maximize mobility and wyrmwaves). So even by not casting, which I think can reduce my DPS but can make the other stuff easier to use I get more damage on SMN.

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Using ruin 2 in Bahamut is a giant dps loss now.

Wyrmwave no longer goes off from ogcd.

You are supposed to sit there casting ruin 3s.

Also, using anything in phoenix mode other than phoenix moves makes no sense and is a dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Aizomi

Honest question.

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Basically it was top DPS, now it's not. You're always going to have people that play certain job purely because it is top DPS on FFlogs rather than the enjoyment of playing the jobs.

But SMN does have some gameplay problems right now that need to be ironed out.

Another issue is smn has weird things that means playing it how it should be played means playing it wrong.

Ex: trying to proc a wyrmwave with ruin 2 right as bahamut smns apparently doesn't work

Without reading a guide you wouldn't know this existed

Similar is using 2 egi attack after each other does give 2 ruin 4 or somethibg like that

You want to weave only 1 after a ruin 3 from what I understand

Also, the job changed so radically many still believe you want to ruin 2, fester, ruin 2, tri disaster in bahamut phase when that is gone like you did tc

So mainly, smn is alot of bugs and misunderstandings while being clunky to play and having a low dps compared to others even with all the effort to understand and work around these issues.

This Job is a fine example of 3 steps forward, and ten steps back. :P

And ShB had some actual cool changes, it's just that once again, the execution is terrible. But it feels like SMN has always been that way.

Wanna compare SMN with BRD?

1 - They do roughly the same DMG.
2 - BRD has full mobility, SMN does not.
3 - BRD has a real AOE buff. SMN has a clown AOE buff.
4 - BRD plays well and flows well. SMN is a convoluted mess and is currently glitched.
5 - SMN is twice as hard as BRD.

Number 5 shouldn't matter, because SE doesn't reward job complexity by giving them more DPS, that's not how it works, but in this case, it certainly adds salt to the wound.

I'm going to wait until 7.0. Just finished all of the post SB main story quests, and uninstalled. No use spending money on this expac, when the next one will include it for the same price, anyways.

Not a fan of the other classes. Typically only play pet casters in MMOs. After 18 years, I don't see a point in changing that now.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Basically it was top DPS, now it's not.

But SMN Egis do have some gameplay problems right now that need to be ironed out asap.

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fixed it.. its all about this:

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Originally Posted by CecMiller

I tried UCOB and UWU on SMN the other day - There was a significant drop in dps. I do well in both fights so it was interesting to see it from a firsthand perspective.

To put it plainly, when I was using Ifrit on SMN (in UWU) before shadowbringers he was doing:

2.9k per burning Strike
1.2k per auto.

Total: 4.1k per gcd

After Shadowbringers:

1.4k per burning Strike
0 per auto (non-existant)

Total: 1.4k per GCD

% Change = -66% in DPS from GCD differences of the pets.

The lack of an ifrit auto is one of the reasons for SMN's low dps in level 80 content and synced content at 70 (I was being outdps'd by a tank at some points in UCOB)

As for the pets: I really really hope that they base it off player potency. I want to see the player potency number - Not have to do some math and try and figure out their potency.

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if ifrit will get his AA back smns dmg is more than good to go tho...


@Trensharo
Go and get your robot than - play overpowered Mch ;3

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Originally Posted by Neela

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Basically it was top DPS, now it's not. You're always going to have people that play certain job purely because it is top DPS on FFlogs rather than the enjoyment of playing the jobs.

But SMN Egis SMN does have some gameplay problems right now that need to be ironed out.

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fixed it..

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Corrected your error. SMN has more problems than just Egis.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

This is where I question if you even play SMN, cause we are so not that mobile caster we were in SB, if you think this then you are mistaken. BLM is the mobile caster now.

Also the difference between RDM and SMN dps is abysmal in most cases where RDM can out dps a SMN simply cause of its complexity, and how much of a mess it is. This is the same issue we had in SB with BLM and SMN. We got to be mobile and out dps them for a long time until they got fixed.

Now we are in that same boat of being less mobile and doing significantly less dps then we were doing from a percent stand point. Also you need to read those threads they are less about dps and more about how clunky the job has become.

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you can say alot about SMN not being on par. Thats all fine.
But calling BLM a mobile caster now is just.. no..

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

you can say alot about SMN not being on par. Thats all fine.
But calling BLM a mobile caster now is just.. no..

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You sure about that?
https://twitter.com/shirayuki_loli/s...18442128818181

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Corrected your error. SMN has more problems than just Egis.

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It doesn’t people just can’t get used to the complete rework and muscle memory. Dmg would be fine with working Egis. Everything else like cutting DWT for Raidbuffs and dbl or triple weaving ocgd are just unfamiliar that’s all. People hated building up trance for deathflare but they got used to it, people were skeptical about Bahamuts ogcd weaving and the got used to it (some are already missing the ogcd phase atm) and now people fight the chaotic/fast speed rota, r4 proc mechanic, dbl trance windows etc but guess what they will get used to it.... again.

yet I know there are much qol-points which can be way smoother than it currently is (ping lags on first trance weaving, big Enterons movement after all, losing our mobility out of trance cause r2 sucks now and actually no reason to use it for ogcds anymore... etc etc) - but those are no game-breaking points. on top of this its like ninjas say "why should I bother the effort for unsatisfying outcome?" - and that unsatisfying outcome is the lack of Egi Dmg we were used to.


As ARR smn I saw this behavior on every xpac smn changed completely. Wait for savage and the first balance patches. I doubt if current smn would pull out 13k easily no one would say „it has problems“ - u know I’m right. It’s about the dmg Ifrit lost not about the faster/complex Design.

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Originally Posted by Tsubaki75

Yes it is, not only did ninja get more complex, but instead of potency being tuned properly to keep our personal dps in the middle of the pack we got nerfed instead. The job is fun to play yes but it doesn't make up for that. So please leave us out of your caster debate; we have enough problems of our own.

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Given your rDPS, why would you expect to be middle of the pack?

By balance, you should be the lowest pDPS, such that your tDPS (indirect contribution given + personal dps not including indirect contribution received) is simply... the same as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Given your rDPS, why would you expect to be middle of the pack?

By balance, you should be the lowest pDPS, such that your tDPS (indirect contribution given + personal dps not including indirect contribution received) is simply... the same as everyone else.

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yeah i kinda like how they force healer to heal more now (even if whm is still a burst monster..) and ninja and dnc are bottom low for their support - tho I don't know if TA is still right on Nin... personal I would like to see dnc and brd as only support cls cause thats their lore ever since... nin qol / dmg will always suffer cause of trick attack. nin is in the same spot than smn on sb release without the 100% aether stack patch. its complex, its button smashing and on first view (without flogs and rdps analysis) not much satisfying - even if you are able to execute your rota to 100%. just because ju will never see big numbers on your own. breaking the mechanic how TA works would defintily help the flow like the 100% aether stack on smn did.

but then again... statics will miss TA on the other hand... dbl edged sword. the main nin in my fc dropped it with the words "it kinda feels like a low dmg caster than a strong fast hitting melee..." - and this will always be the case as long TA stays the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Angry_Evil

You sure [BLM hasn't become a "mobile caster"]?
https://twitter.com/shirayuki_loli/s...18442128818181

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This isn't anything new, though. There are still no more instant casts used there than would have been possible in SB, while the rest is just BtL, also added in SB.

BLM gained Xenoglossy, once per 30 seconds, stackable to two charges. That's it for its increased mobility. It hasn't suddenly become a Bard.

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Originally Posted by Neela

yeah i kinda like how they force healer to heal more now (even if whm is still a burst monster..) and ninja and dnc are bottom low for their support - tho I don't know if TA is still right on Nin... personal I would like to see dnc and brd as only support cls cause thats their lore ever since... nin qol / dmg will always suffer cause of trick attack. nin is in the same spot than smn on sb release without the 100% aether stack patch. its complex, its button smashing and on first view (without flogs and rdps analysis) not much satisfying - even if you are able to execute your rota to 100%. just because ju will never see big numbers on your own. breaking the mechanic how TA works would defintily help the flow like the 100% aether stack on smn did.

but then again... statics will miss TA on the other hand... dbl edged sword. the main nin in my fc dropped it with the words "it kinda feels like a low dmg caster than a strong fast hitting melee..." - and this will always be the case as long TA stays the way it is.

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They haven't forced healers to heal any more now. AST is just undertuned a bit. As for the rest, I've not felt the same in playing 5.0 NIN; I feel plenty impactful and the difference between playing optimally and playing merely decently feels as numerically significant as ever. I see no reason to drop TA, either; when I see my party's optimal burst windows go off during my TA, that adds to the feeling of my impact.

yeah because you play nin FOR TA and are aware why you are doing it - most nins who complain about their low dmg now... actually dont play them just for savage. Those who never get in touch with endgame raiding - just got a low dmg melee with nice animation but no power at all. its like most casual dnc can't understand why mchs are so "overturned" now - they are jelly about mchs dmg without really understanding how strong dances/TA actually are just not on "your" side. I just said if TA stays on Nin, Nin will always suffer low pDPS and thats absolut the right way for me - as I see, for u as well. ^^

Been playing SMN as main on multiple characters (I'm OCD/autistic) since the job was introduced. Still have my Hermes boots and other freebies from collectors edition of 1.0 so I've seen a lot of things come and go and never complained. Was playing SMN for years before that in FFXI. There have been ups and downs but SMN never felt so empty and unfulfilled as it does right now. Decided I'm going to switch to a new job. I just abhor what they done to pets.

Can't help thinking this is first half of some longer term plans they have, like new pet classes or something. I hate it.


I don't keep up with the community and haven't read this thread yet so I'll do so now. Anyone know what the feedback is from our Japanese brothers and sisters on SMN changes ? It's always seemed like they get listened to but rest of the world don't.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This isn't anything new, though. There are still no more instant casts used there than would have been possible in SB, while the rest is just BtL, also added in SB.

BLM gained Xenoglossy, once per 30 seconds, stackable to two charges. That's it for its increased mobility. It hasn't suddenly become a Bard.

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You don't get it. It's not like BLM suddenly become one, but summoner stopped being one. We literally must choose between moving with r4 or weaving with r4 either way there'll be dps loss. DWT only mobility phase get canceled for party buffs and moving during FBT will result in dps loss cause of bugs and bad ai

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Originally Posted by Neela

fixed it.. its all about this:



if ifrit will get his AA back smns dmg is more than good to go tho...


@Trensharo
Go and get your robot than - play overpowered Mch ;3

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I didn't know MCH was a pet caster, or is reading optional before replying ;3

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This isn't anything new, though. There are still no more instant casts used there than would have been possible in SB, while the rest is just BtL, also added in SB.

BLM gained Xenoglossy, once per 30 seconds, stackable to two charges. That's it for its increased mobility. It hasn't suddenly become a Bard.

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It hasn't become a BRD, but I would say that its more mobile than SMN is, by a long shot. I guess the tables have turned.

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Originally Posted by Trensharo

I didn't know MCH was a pet caster, or is reading optional before replying ;3

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sacarsm never works on the internet tho... : /