Post Eden stuff here!!!
I'll post in here about my own thoughts and stuff after I calm down and sleep... also, Spoilers are going to be in here soo ya know what to do.
So about that Eden
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07-17-2019, 12:05 AMRannieSo about that Eden
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07-17-2019, 12:07 AMCrushnight
10char right
so Eden is the 1st sin eater and apparently Minfilia stopped it when she came to the first. Though unlike every other sin eater Eden is not made of light but apparently is light which may mean that there is a equivalent within the void.
If that is true then we could have our way of fixing the void potentially and it seems Gaia is the oracle of darkness so she may be the key to it as well.
Refighting old primals with new skins is interesting but i have to say where on the source did we face anything that was close to Titan's power in a car XD i know these are just names at this point since Urianger states that our memories of other foes are fusing with the primal idea we know. So we probably have the next 4 bosses lined up as Garuda, Ifrit, Ramuh and Shiva. Wonder how Nomura will change their looks up
Tin foil hat time i suspect the last 4 bosses will have something to do with the void and us fixing it now i hope it will be like they have shown with Eden where certain spots will start to have life return and then slowly go outward from there, as this could leave voidsent as enemies for awhile but we also have to consider would the voidsent just eat all this new life up the moment it emerges? Could fixing the void actually be possible this way due to the nature of voidsent or would something akin to the flood of light be needed where if voidsent so much as touch it they transform back? -
07-17-2019, 01:34 AMDaraliiTen charactersQuote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
I'm hoping the Shiva fight is a tearjerker. A more somber version of Oblivion, with Shiva herself just being Ysayle with decorative ice armor.
Anyway, if Gaia can control a theoretical Voidsent Prime(or if the CT can still open a tear to the 13th), I have to think that the shard could theoretically be restored, but there are problems in the way. The overwhelming darkness would need to be dealt with, either through someone with the Blessing of Light(Unukalhai...) or perhaps Eden/"Voidsent Prime" putting the aether in stasis and seeing if it could gradually shift, the voidsent would need to be driven away from an ever-expanding area of operations-which is so unfeasible that I think killing everything on the shard might be the only way-or they would simply gorge themselves on the realigned aether.
The fact that Gaia and the Oracle of Darkness exist at all, and that Gaia herself seems at odds with the Oracle, makes me wonder if she could either be the start of Elidibus's plan or a remnant from the older plan to fix the shard. -
07-17-2019, 01:48 AMOgruMogru
The markings on the floor of that second fight look a lot like my favourite tall grumpy boy's mask/glyph...
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07-17-2019, 04:11 AMListrella
it looks like eden might be som sort of technological construct, if it is then who built it and why did they build it, most likely the ascians had something to do with it, maybe this loghrif that emet-selch mentioned. also I wonder what is up with this oracle of darkness mentioned at the end, and what is up with Thancred and Urianger keeping this stuff from my warrior of light, she deserves to be brought in on all this stuff after all she's done.
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07-17-2019, 04:23 AMBright-Flower
I'm a bit confused, though maybe subsequent raids will elaborate.
Eden being the first sin eater I can get behind, but why...is it so technological? With Alexander it made sense, the goblins summoned Alexander into a sharlyan construct but Eden isn't a primal made in such a way. -
07-17-2019, 04:30 AMJohaandr
I wish the source got revamped . The enviorment of that eden Titan is mega prettier than source titan.
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07-17-2019, 04:43 AMListrella
Well we don't know yet. Hopefully, as the Eden storyline continues we will find out how Eden was created.
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07-17-2019, 04:46 AMDualblade10 char to make spoilersQuote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
Remember that Light wasn't just infecting man and animals, it could even infect golems and the like. As well given the part about Eden Prime it may very well be that Eden IS in fact a Primal only to end up being taken over by the Light. We'll almost certainly learn more in 6 months though.
On bosses.
I don't think anyone was expecting Eden Prime as the FIRST boss to fight but it is a good way to break up how things usually go. Voidwalker to my understanding has nothing to do with VIII so it seems to be an original for XIV/this raid.
Leviathan and Titan though, that was another enjoyable surprise. More so since we don't have to worry about their names having to be changed later like what happened in CT (the final boss of LoTA was FFIII Titan if I remember which wouldn't really work English naming wise based on lore). I've also been wondering for a while if the things we learned at the end of the MSQ might lead to us being able to one day safely summon a Primal, and while this isn't that its still pretty close. Ryne is also right in that it is somewhat sad that we summoned this new being only to kill it...which given that we are summoning ARR Primals is going to make Shiva even worse.
...Also who's ready for King Moogle Mog on the First! Me, is it just me? -
07-17-2019, 05:04 AMBright-Flower
About my question...
Maybe, my issue may well be alleviated when we learn more in future raids, for now it just kinda makes me scratch my head more in a 'wat' way than a 'how intriguing I can't wait to learn more' way.
Regarding the first fight...
It was certainly a surprise. I was like 'eden prime? Already? Waaaaaaaaaaat?!' because I thought it'd be the final fight of the raid story in 5.4, or at least the penultimate fight if they pull another Omega on us and have Ultimecia as the last boss or something. There were some interesting reactions in the party.
In a way it was a brilliant move though. It threw me off and gives the impression that anything could happen and the normal rules are out the window.
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07-17-2019, 05:30 AMDaraliiQuote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
I feel like it might be a Primal of a sort. We know that Ryne has the Echo, and she was able to wrest control of Eden in a battle of wills. It's reminiscent of Zenos taking control of Shinryu.
I can't help but wonder if it was created by Zodiark when He was revitalizing the world, and then just left to sleep until the Flood disturbed it.
Nine plus one -
07-17-2019, 05:52 AMBright-FlowerMaybe. Ten chars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
The main reason I'm not so sure about it existing before is that Ryne says it's not 'filled with light' but 'made of light' infering that it isn't a preexisting being consumed by light the way sin eaters were once living things consumed by light. If it was a machien or primal or whatever before the flood of light I wouldn't imagine this distinction would exist. -
07-17-2019, 06:13 AMCrushnight10 laws for charactersQuote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
I'm most interested in seeing both Ramuh and Shiva/Ysayle since while we fought them it was far more on their terms and Shiva having such expanded lore to her(maybe a mix of Shiva + Hrasvelgr) and be interesting how they are changed.
Gaia is definetly going to be interesting going forward :D -
07-17-2019, 06:55 AMGrizzlyTank
There better be...
at some point.Moogles -
07-18-2019, 04:54 AMMilea
On Eden and what it is
My guess is Eden was made by Hydaelyn.
Hydaelyn is THE primal of light.
Also, Ryne can control Eden why and how?
The Oraclr is like Hydaelyn\\'s representative.
As to Eden fixing the 13th, I don\\'t think it is possible.
Light aether suppresses aether. This is why the first is fixable.
What does darkness aether do? My guess is it destroys or overrides. -
07-18-2019, 11:41 PMSeraphor
10characters
Remember the Flood of Light was caused by Ascian meddling, and Eden was the cause of it, then it makes sense that the Ascians had a hand in it.
Personal theory is that Eden was created by the people of the 13th, coerced by Ascians into controlling the balance of aether. That's why it's technological, because it is technology.
That's why Gaia said something along the lines of Eden destroying her world.
Then to instigate the Flood of light on the First, Emet-Selch brought Eden over again.
Perhaps Eden was used for all of the calamities? -
07-20-2019, 03:51 AMMileaPerhaps, but then why does Ryne say Eden is light?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
If she could cause all the calamities, she should be more than light. -
07-20-2019, 08:45 AMNalien
On Edens origins
While doing the MSQ I mentioned to myself that Chthonic Riddle, Therion had some design aspects that reminded me of Eden... Most notably the purple domes, did anyone else get this vibe at all? If Therion was the result of Ancients Creation Magic running rampant, I wonder perhaps if Edens creation is rooted in a similar manner? We know the Flood of Light was part of the Acians plan, and if that Flood was being caused by the First Sin Eater, perhaps the Emet created Eden specifically for that purpose? Given how simple a matter it was for him to hand over a Lightwarden to the old Major of Eulmore, it stands to reason he had some method for dealing with them...
Also worth pointing out, that in our fight with Hades, his wings had clusters of Dark Crystals forming on them. Eden, likewise, has clusters of Light Crystals forming under her wings... Heck, if you attach a giant domed Garden to Hades back (with his wings holding it in place), I think he'd look very similar to Eden in a lot of regards... -
07-20-2019, 09:09 AMLium
Unless I missed it...
How did Eden cause the Flood of Light? Who built it and why? Does it have Ascian connections? -
07-21-2019, 04:27 AMIscahI don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milea
being a Light-aspected primal does not give Her control over all Light.
The last we heard, She was immensely weakened, needed an external power boost to give Minfilia form again, and I don't think we've heard from Her at all since that time back in 3.4.
Also, She sent Minfilia to the First to stop the flood. Why do that if She also created the cause of the flood? -
07-21-2019, 11:19 AMMrThinkerWell you seeQuote:
Originally Posted by Lium
We do not know at the current moment who or what built Eden. It is implied to have Ascian connections due to it (apparently as according to Urianger) causing the Flood of Light. Eden is said (again by Urianger) to have the power to affect the polarity of aether in an environment and aspect said aether completely to one end or the other. It (apparently) caused the Flood by going around the First and aspecting all of the aether to the Umbral (Light) pole which caused the aether to clog and a cascading effect then happened, which was the Flood of Light. How did it manage to do this w/o anyone noticing? We do not know. -
07-22-2019, 05:19 AMAkaeiNox
How likely
That it was build by the convocation to attempt to control the unstable creation magic?
Machines can't feel fears.
A shard management thing. -
07-22-2019, 09:50 AMRyuDragnier
You guys are missing the possibly obvious answer on Eden's origins...
Back in FF8, Eden was the final and ultimate Guardian Force. In Akademia the research papers mention they decided to create being made to fight back the calamity facing them, which they called Guardian Forces. Since Eden was the ultimate Guardian Force in FF8, it goes to reason that this Eden is in fact their greatest Guardian Force made right before the summoning of Zodiark. It's far more likely that Eden is able to control the forces that be simply because the Ascians in the past created it to do so, thinking they could avert their calamity that way. -
07-23-2019, 05:58 AMScott
I just dont understand one thing. Why are we traveling to existing places on the remaining world to summon the Primals....
How does defeating Primals outside the Empty influence the Empty? Wouldnt it be more realistic to summon the from the dormant Ather in the Emtpy to reactivate it? -
07-23-2019, 06:18 AMRannie
We are going to certain places where the aether is blocked more or less and us summoning the primal of said elemental and then dispersing it is acting sort of like pouring draino down a clogged pipe.
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07-23-2019, 06:30 AMRyuDragnierPrimals are basically condensed aether. We're having Eden create versions of things we've fought out of nothing, and then killing them to release the aether. Said aether is then pouring back into the planet, and pushing the 'frozen' aether into moving. Basically the aether is currently not in motion, summoning and killing elemental primals is setting it into motion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
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07-23-2019, 06:42 AMLium
The reason for going outside the Empty is...
It was explained that in order to summon the correct aspected primal they had to be in the right region with the appropriate element, i.e. a rocky/mountainous region to summon Titan.
Then, hopefully, after the primal was defeated, its aether will go back into the land and rejuvenate it. So, the mountains and the land around Titan changed back to brown and normal looking after he was slain. It will then spread from there to other parts of the Empty.
If you remember, after we defeated Leviathan, only the immediate area around Eden was affected. -
07-23-2019, 07:45 AMZohar_LaharNot sure who built it yet, but apparently works similar to the House of the Crooked Coin in that it controls the flow of aether, only on a planetary rather than regional scale. What isn't clear is why it activated after Ardbert destroyed Mitron & Loghrif.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lium
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07-23-2019, 09:07 AMObsidianFire
Eden doesn't really work like the Crystal in the House of the Crooked Coin at all. The Crystal in the House of the Crooked Coin does not turn aether into static (Umbral) aether, which is what Eden did. Rather, the Crystal in the House of the Crooked Coin acts like a dam or a diversion channel. It was diverting the aether away from the Burn and storing it. The Allagans simply never turned the diversion effect off. Once Y'shtola turned the diversion effect off, the aether started flowing towards the Burn again. The Burn isn't filled with static aether (the Empty) but has very, very little aether (the Void). The Burn has more in common with the Void then the Empty really.
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07-23-2019, 09:57 AMRyuDragnierIt's possible it was a failsafe set up by the Ascians to guarantee the Calamity. It's possible that it's the very thing they've been using in EVERY world up until now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar
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07-23-2019, 10:59 PMLineageRazorI think the confusion is coming from the point thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Lium
the mountains and land around Titan are brown and normal looking BEFORE he is slain. The battlefield doesn't look as though it's in the Empty at all. I was totally on board with the idea that we needed to perform the summoning in areas where that particular element was dominant, but the implication was that the place we were going was INSIDE of the Empty. In the case of Leviathan, a place where water existed in great abundance before the Flood (but was dry, white, and inert, now). So, why are there brown, rocky cliffs and a flowing river during the battle with Leviathan, instead of a featureless white basin?
It seems as though we've gone back to Norvrandt to fight these Primals, which makes no sense given the dialogue leading up to the fights. I mean, it makes sense from a gameplay perspective; a raging river or craggy backdrop makes for a much more engaging setting than white nothingness, but it doesn't track well with the plotline.
Either we're not fighting in the Empty, or the Empty doesn't look Empty for some reason. Perhaps the Primal influenced the setting with its magic? Shinryu seemed to be able to construct its own battlefield, after all. -
07-23-2019, 11:46 PMTinyRedLeaf
I did not fight Eden in FFVIII, so I don't know if this is something peculiar only to FFXIV's version of the guardian force:
http://i.imgur.com/GWJ3ilC.jpg?1
Eden's limit break summons a force field around a planet, arranged in twelve directions.
Is that coincidence? Or is it a subtle hint of the Twelve? My current theory is that Hydaelyn was summoned by a rebel group of 12 Ascians, in opposition to the summoning of Zodiark. Perhaps Eden was also created by the rebel Ascians, before the fall of Amaulot?
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07-24-2019, 12:04 AMDaraliiThere are texts in Akademia Anyder that sayQuote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
Lahabrea and his colleagues were doing research into the creation of beings they dubbed Guardian Forces, and discovered the necessity of sacrifice to make them manifest. Them trying to create a large GF that operates on a planetary scale would make sense as a proof of concept for the idea that would become Zodiark. -
07-24-2019, 01:51 AMAkaeiNox
10 characters.
Was our unsundered soul involved in the Guardian Forces project? Could it be that work on them that raised "us" to the convocation. -
07-24-2019, 02:18 AMSeraph522Just to note, you don't actually fight Eden in FFVIII, you draw it from either the Ultima Weapon fight or from Tiamat and can use it as a Guardian Force. To address the image:Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
It's an almost exact recreation of Eden's summoned attack from FFVIII, the numbers included; you can take a look at it here at about 10:15. The numbers also match what is present in FFVIII's summon animation, so it could easily be a coincidence. Doesn't mean it couldn't mean more, of course, but it's not guaranteed. -
07-24-2019, 02:39 AMLineageRazorYes, this sequence is almost an exact replica of the summoning animation for Eden from FFXIII. Pretty much the only thing missing is the animation of Eden are the slow pans across Eden and moving the enemy (us, in this case) into position. Since FFXIV wasn't even a twinkle in Tanaka's eye at that point this animation was created for FFVIII, it is very unlikely that any of the symbols we see here were intended to have any meaning for FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
That said, there's nothing stopping the devs from retroactively assigning some meaning. Twelve is a useful number, and triangle is a useful shape. XD -
07-24-2019, 05:06 AMDaraliiSide by side of the animations with them trimmed to match up, because Eternal Breath in VIII was easily twice the length of it in XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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07-24-2019, 10:19 AMTankHunter678It was also played at iirc 30 FPS back in VIII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
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07-24-2019, 08:45 PMSeraphorPlot twist:Quote:
Originally Posted by AkaeiNox
The reason we have no memories of our past Amaurotine life, is that summoning a Guardian Force... erased them.