Shadowbringers is the best FF anything in years

I don't know if anyone from SE will read this, but I just wanted to say, holy crap.

You guys went above and beyond with this expansion. The story, villain, cutscenes, everything was so damned perfect. Please, more like this. I've been the guy that's needed to take breaks, that liked ARR but the story drug on and on. I wasn't the biggest Stormblood fan, and Heavensward was decent, but this....blew me away. I've been raving about it since I finished the MSQ yesterday morning.

Even the music. I was never the biggest fan of Soken and preferred Uematsu's work. But the Shadowbringers OST is perfect. Almost every song, aside from the new battle theme, was perfect, and I've been listening to the final boss music on repeat while I replay the cutscene before the fight in my head over and over.

This entire expansion was epic, and made me feel like a total badass with my character. You guys created the single best expansion to an MMO I've ever played (I loved it more than WotLK), and on top of that you created the best Final Fantasy anything, for me, since X or XI.

Thank you, so much. Yoshida, you should be in charge of the Final Fantasy brand as a whole, because you "get" it. You know what fans want to see, what will make them cheer, make them tear up....all of it. I don't think there's ever been someone in charge of something that has this much passion for it, so again, thank you, so much, for the ride.

Agreed, 110%. Every step of the way I found myself enthralled with the music of each zone and each character's unique story and struggles. This expansion has given me by far my favorite villains of all time, not just in the FF games. Without getting into any spoiler territory, this is the best story I've ever experienced in a game. Ever.

Yep, I've been telling everyone I know. The main story is one of the primary reasons I play this game, and for the base and the first two expansions it's been good - an average RPG story that's made a bit better by its sheer size and scope of characters.

But with Shadowbringers, it's now a great story that's one of the best I've seen in any RPG.

Heavensward was better.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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Ok but that's like, your opinion.

Also, are you comparing all of Heavensward including Dragonsong or just 3.0? Because so far 5.0 is better than 3.0 hands down.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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Heavenward was great, but I have to side with ShadowBringers being better. At least base expansion vs base expansion.

I enjoyed it alot.

I'm in agreement - from start to finish it was a wonderful journey and I hope the content patches are just as solid. It's quite a few steps above 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0 and they weren't bad in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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I liked the HW story...well, the launch patch stuff anyway. After that it sorta dragged on for what seemed like forever. Even so I would probably place Shadowbringers above HW in terms of story quality...and I mean HW from beginning to end. Even the post launch patches in HW paled in comparison to Shadowbringers launch itself. So I have high hopes for the rest of the expansion. This is all a matter of opinion though. SE can't satisfy everyone and that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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I respect your opinion, but just in terms of zone variety alone Shadowbringers offers more. I didn't find the story in HW that compelling aside from the Estinien stuff, and I kind of got tired of the "feel" of that expansion by the end of it. If that makes any sense at all.

If you liked the story and stuff better, then cool beans though. :) To each their own.

Totally agreed, this was the best Final Fantasy story in years

I think the common element is that HW and ShB feel like they were set in the fantasy genre. SB as much as it tried didn't give off the same feeling. SB also made the mistake of splitting the story between Ala Mhigo and Doma with most of it centered on the Doma conflict leaving the Ala Mhigan side feeling lack luster.

Shadowbringers did a great job of making the WoL feel like the center of the plot which I found enjoyable especially with all the dialogue choices and all the comedic reactions to those choices.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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Heavensward didn't have La HEE, SCREE and Emet Selch. Therefore Shadowbringers reigns supreme.

Yoshida SHOULD NOT be in charge of the entire FF branch. O_O Maybe the main writer of SHB, who is phenomenal and has made FFXIV more like FF than the past few expansions, but not Yoshida. Hell, it's even more like FF than 13-15. I'd like to see the original team back... But I definitely wouldn't mind main writer of SHB to take lead. I can't remember her name. I'm sorry, I love you I'm just shit at new names. ;;

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

Yoshida SHOULD NOT be in charge of the entire FF branch. O_O Maybe the main writer of SHB, who is phenomenal and has madeFFXIV more like FF than the past few expansions, but not Yoshida. I'd like to see the original team back.

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Ishikawa has done a phenomenal job and it makes me want to go and do the rogue and ALC quests. 5.0 has been so good in every aspect, so cared for that I freak out thinking about what 5.x will bring. Besides Yoko Taro's madness and the inevitable text adventure.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Agreed, 110%.

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Ok but that's like, your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Ok but that's like, your opinion.

Also, are you comparing all of Heavensward including Dragonsong or just 3.0? Because so far 5.0 is better than 3.0 hands down.

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The whole Dragonsong War. Granted Shadowbringers isn't finished yet, but as of yet, Heavensward is better.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Heavensward didn't have La HEE, SCREE and Emet Selch. Therefore Shadowbringers reigns supreme.

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Heavensward had Estinien, Lady Iceheart and Alphinaud's redemption arc. Therefore Heavensward reigns supreme.

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Originally Posted by Kazahashi

I respect your opinion, but just in terms of zone variety alone Shadowbringers offers more. I didn't find the story in HW that compelling aside from the Estinien stuff, and I kind of got tired of the "feel" of that expansion by the end of it. If that makes any sense at all.

If you liked the story and stuff better, then cool beans though. :) To each their own.

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In terms of zones, I'd say they are about equal. Shadowbringers is definitely prettier, but Coerthas tells a more haunting story through environmental storytelling. The land was almost a lament of the previous age Dragon and Man were together.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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lol no

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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So you liked it better that's fine, you can. Many of us found this to be the best xpac to date. That is what makes the world go around, people have different opinions.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

So you liked it better that's fine, you can. Many of us found this to be the best xpac to date. That is what makes the world go around, people have different opinions.

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So you liked it better that's fine, you can. That is what makes the world go around, people have different opinions.

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Originally Posted by Edax

So you liked it better that's fine, you can. That is what makes the world go around, people have different opinions.

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Exactly glad you agree.

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Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR

Yoshida SHOULD NOT be in charge of the entire FF branch. O_O Maybe the main writer of SHB, who is phenomenal and has made FFXIV more like FF than the past few expansions, but not Yoshida. Hell, it's even more like FF than 13-15. I'd like to see the original team back... But I definitely wouldn't mind main writer of SHB to take lead. I can't remember her name. I'm sorry, I love you I'm just shit at new names. ;;

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I'm not upset at all here with this opinion, I'm genuinely curious why you don't think he should be in charge of the FF brand? He's done more spot on directing for FF games, and better handling of projects than any of the other big names have. I just don't understand why he wouldn't be a preferable choice?

I don't think a writer would be the best option, because one of the biggest strengths of FF is the different writers that bring different things to the table. But for instance, look at XV's direction....it was all over the place. I mean, there's no need to get into it much because everyone already knows the issues with that game. Besides, if Yoshida was over-seeing the brand as a whole, it doesn't mean he'd be directing every single game in the series....there would still be room for other people to come in and make their mark directing as well.

I just feel like Nomura, Tabata, those guys....their magic has run out, at least to me.

But yeah, I'd love to hear your opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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Everyone has different opinions. I thought Heavensward was the low point even though I see more people hating on Stormblood overall.

They hyped up this big secret about why the dragons and Ishgard have been fighting forever and then the big reveal came and it felt like absolutely nothing. I never figured out why I should care about the dragons or the Ishgardians. Alphinaud was still in every damned cutscene even though he's the worst scion and an obvious crutch for the fact they don't give your own PC enough lines. And to top it all off, it may have been a coincidence but the whole thing felt like "dragons are the It Thing right now, so we have to do a story about dragons like everyone else."

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Everyone has different opinions. I thought Heavensward was the low point even though I see more people hating on Stormblood overall.

They hyped up this big secret about why the dragons and Ishgard have been fighting forever and then the big reveal came and it felt like absolutely nothing. I never figured out why I should care about the dragons or the Ishgardians. Alphinaud was still in every damned cutscene even though he's the worst scion and an obvious crutch for the fact they don't give your own PC enough lines. And to top it all off, it may have been a coincidence but the whole thing felt like "dragons are the It Thing right now, so we have to do a story about dragons like everyone else."

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I have to agree here....I felt like the whole dragon aspect was boring. I've felt like dragons in general have been over used in fantasy for a long time though, they're played out I think.

Not knocking your opinion Edax, hell, I WISH I enjoyed HW as much as you did.

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Originally Posted by Kazahashi

I have to agree here....I felt like the whole dragon aspect was boring. I've felt like dragons in general have been over used in fantasy for a long time though, they're played out I think.

Not knocking your opinion Edax, hell, I WISH I enjoyed HW as much as you did.

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I viewed the dragons as an allegory for those grudges people have against crimes or wars of nations and races that happened generations ago. People in China and Korea are still very bitter over what happened in WW2, it may still end up sparking a war.
I found it more topical then a villain who argues for mass genocide whom I've seen hundreds of times now. Heck even the Warriors of Darkness in the Dragonsong War were the new genocide-villians for a time. That was not HW's strong point.

Isn't Emet just a new version of Sephiroth? He tries to destroy the world because he think he's an Ancient and he's repulsed by "humanity".

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Originally Posted by Edax

I viewed the dragons as an allegory for those grudges people have against crimes or wars of nations and races that happened generations ago. People in China and Korea are still very bitter over what happened in WW2, it may still end up sparking a war.
I found it more topical then a villain who argues for mass genocide whom I've seen hundreds of times now. Heck even the Warriors of Darkness in the Dragonsong War were the new genocide-villians for a time. That was not HW's strong point.

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I can see why you liked it. :)

For me, it wasn't Emet's motivations that made me root for him as a villain, but his character itself....the presentation of it was great. There was hints of Kefka in him, at least to me. And I greatly enjoyed that as a whole.

While HW was great it doesnt really hold a candle from both a narrative viewpoint as well as the scope of the story to Shadowbringers. Theres not only way more at stake but also conclusions to Years of lore build up, especially things that revolve around the ascians.


Its pretty obvious that Shadowbringers has had more of a emotional impact on those who have been invested into the story for years like myself. Nothing in HW was able to evoke this level of emotion from the players and I think that speaks for itself.

I'm sensing that the general consensus on SB though, is that no one will claim it was their favorite by a mile. XD

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Originally Posted by Kazahashi

I'm sensing that the general consensus on SB though, is that no one will claim it was their favorite by a mile. XD

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SB is a mess. It's a story divided into two that turns the WoL into a side character and worst of all, it feels like Stormblood has no conclusion. We confront the villain, but he commits suicide instead. But that suicide means nothing because the villain is still walking around and he has no goals beyond instant gratifications. On the list of villains, Zenos is low on my list. All he wants to do is fight...but when we fought him, he decided to cut his own throat instead. It feels like the writing is just spinning its wheels in the mud. And I can't even suspend my disbelief that Ambassador Ashai would ever be devoted to Zenos. There's nothing likable about the Zenos and I struggle to comprehend that anyone would moune this guy besides Yotsuyu. Who wants to devote themselves to guy that's bored and selfish? If Zenos liked fighting then why get all bent out of shape that Zenos actually when down in a fight? The writing is just so bad. And Zenos is immortal now, why ever would he care about fighting when there's nothing risk anymore? Oh forget it......

https://i.imgur.com/CBl9YpA.png

Shadowbringers thankfully, tells a complete story. It had the good sense to stay focused on the First.

I for one, loved the SB story. It felt unfinished for a reason and that's because we got sidetracked into SHB. It will be finished in the next expansion. Though it will have a strong lead in from ShB. The capital city is next.

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Originally Posted by Kazahashi

I'm sensing that the general consensus on SB though, is that no one will claim it was their favorite by a mile. XD

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If you're a huge weeaboo, probably.

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Originally Posted by Edax

Heavensward was better.

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Heavensward was certainly very good, but could you explain this opinion in more detail? Because I really struggle to find what HW did better than ShB (despite being the best expansion until ShB).

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Originally Posted by Kazahashi

I'm sensing that the general consensus on SB though, is that no one will claim it was their favorite by a mile. XD

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I wouldn't call the story in Stormblood bad. I think it was at least half decent. The problem was that it felt rushed since we had 2 different nations to focus on and one was essentially an afterthought (Ala Mhigo). The post launch story wasn't bad either but I wouldn't call it great. Imo, it only really got good in the lead up to Shadowbringers which was pretty much the final 2 patches. For me at least, the story wasn't what left a sour taste in my mouth. It was Eureka.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Heavensward was certainly very good, but could you explain this opinion in more detail? Because I really struggle to find what HW did better than ShB (despite being the best expansion until ShB).

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I maybe repeating myself here, but I found the Dragonsong War more of a relevant story in today's world. I viewed the dragons as an allegory for those grudges people have against crimes or wars of nations and races that happened generations ago. People in China and Korea are still very bitter over what happened in WW2, it may still end up sparking a war. It's a timely message to not hold generational grudges.

I found it all more topical then a villain who argues for mass genocide whom I've seen hundreds of times now. Sephiroth tries to destroy the world because he think he's an Ancient and he's repulsed by "humanity". That sounds an awful lot like Emet, it's almost a Final Fantasy cliché.

Also Heavensward had Estinien, Lady Iceheart and Alphinaud's redemption arc. Shadowbringers however, doesn't really put the WoL or Scions through a character arc, it's only Emet who goes through a negative character arc, which is just a rehashing of FFVII. Even Lord Vauthry feels like a repeat of Don Corneo, they even have the same haircut and hedonistic lifestyle. I won't say Shadowbringers is bad (I think it's really good), but Heavensward (imo) is better. The characters were more dynamic, had viewpoints that changed and the conflict was driven by humanity's flaws instead of god-like super beings or supernatural calamities.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I maybe repeating myself here, but I found the Dragonsong War more of a relevant story in today's world. I viewed the dragons as an allegory for those grudges people have against crimes or wars of nations and races that happened generations ago. People in China and Korea are still very bitter over what happened in WW2, it may still end up sparking a war. It's a timely message to not hold generational grudges.

I found it all more topical then a villain who argues for mass genocide whom I've seen hundreds of times now. Sephiroth tries to destroy the world because he think he's an Ancient and he's repulsed by "humanity". That sounds an awful lot like Emet, it's almost a Final Fantasy cliché.

Also Heavensward had Estinien, Lady Iceheart and Alphinaud's redemption arc. Shadowbringers however, doesn't really put the WoL or Scions through a character arc, it's only Emet who goes through a negative character arc, which is just a rehashing of FFVII. Even Lord Vauthry feels like a repeat of Don Corneo, they even have the same haircut and hedonistic lifestyle. I won't say Shadowbringers is bad (I think it's really good), but Heavensward (imo) is better. The characters were more dynamic, had viewpoints that changed and the conflict was driven by humanity's flaws instead of god-like super beings or supernatural calamities.

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Fair enough.

I guess I don't really agree with HW being an allegory for anything in RL, but you see it differently, so to each their own. IMO, if you see HW as a RL allegory, then ShB can be seen that way as well with certain "extremely powerful entities" seemingly going out of their way to destroy the world.

The one thing I'm going to have to object to though is that there are most definitely character arcs for the WoL/D and the Scions in ShB. The stuff with Ardbert is of particular relevance, and especially Thancred has some pretty major character building (Y'shtola as well, and Urianger too). I will admit that the twins take a bit more of a backseat in the character building department in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Fair enough.

I guess I don't really agree with HW being an allegory for anything in RL, but you see it differently, so to each their own. IMO, if you see HW as a RL allegory, then ShB can be seen that way as well with certain "extremely powerful entities" seemingly going out of their way to destroy the world.

The one thing I'm going to have to object to though is that there are most definitely character arcs for the WoL/D and the Scions in ShB. The stuff with Ardbert is of particular relevance, and especially Thancred has some pretty major character building (Y'shtola as well, and Urianger too). I will admit that the twins take a bit more of a backseat in the character building department in ShB.

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Can't say Urianger has changed that much, he doesn't act all that differently then when he did in SB. Same with Y'shtola, although she seems a little more manic(?) But I not sure if that's a result of character development or if the lifestream has affected her head. It does not appear to be from the result of a character arc. And Thancred is so inconsistent between AAR, HW, SB and ShB that I'm at a loss for what his character even is. Strangely enough, the Warriors of Light from the First seemed to have more of a character arc in ShB then the Scions despite being dead. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The one thing I'm going to have to object to though is that there are most definitely character arcs for the WoL/D and the Scions in ShB. The stuff with Ardbert is of particular relevance, and especially Thancred has some pretty major character building (Y'shtola as well, and Urianger too). I will admit that the twins take a bit more of a backseat in the character building department in ShB.

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Firmly agreed. The character arcs in Shadowbringers have been a delight to watch unfold. I was always very lukewarm towards many of the Scions though this time around I came to care for all of them. Even the minor characters along the way had a lot of personality this time around. Though I suppose when someone is eager to try and constantly draw parallels between real world atrocities and fictional events they're going to praise whatever expansion reinforces their world views the most!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Though I suppose when someone is eager to try and constantly draw parallels between real world atrocities and fictional events they're going to praise whatever expansion reinforces their world views the most!

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I disagree. I appreciate quality writing. Super natural calamities and super-beings devolve stories into Deus ex Machina or Diabolus ex Machina. These thing only happen when the writers are being very lazy or have wrote themselves into a corner because they didn't think things through. It's not about reinforcing world views, it's about how stories should have some basis in reality, otherwise you could have a 5-year old write the story.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I disagree. I appreciate quality writing. Super natural calamities and super-beings devolve stories into Deus ex Machina or Diabolus ex Machina. These thing only happen when the writers are being very lazy or have wrote themselves into a corner because they didn't think things through. It's not about reinforcing world views, it's about how stories should have some basis in reality, otherwise a 5-year could have wrote the story.

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I'd consider Shadowbringers to be quality writing. It's also been praised by both critics and players alike far beyond anything that has come before it. It may not be a story to your personal preference though for many it is the best the game has ever been. Whether it continues to operate on a high note is the real test, though. We'll have to see how the first part of the Eden story plays out tomorrow, for instance.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd consider Shadowbringers to be quality writing. It's also been praised by both critics and players alike far beyond anything that has come before it. It may not be a story to your personal preference though for many it is the best the game has ever been. Whether it continues to operate on a high note is the real test, though. We'll have to see how the first part of the Eden story plays out tomorrow, for instance.

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I consider Shadowbringers to be quality writing too. And you didn't need to insinuate that I needed my worldview reinforced. I considered that to be a slanderous insult.

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Originally Posted by Edax

I consider Shadowbringers to be quality writing too. And you didn't need to insinuate that I needed my worldview reinforced. I considered that to be a slanderous insult.

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It was a general statement, not aimed at anyone in particular.