Feedback: Please continue to develop Viera / Hrothgar Character Customization

I know this has gone without saying for some people, but SE please continue to fully develop Viera and Hrothgar character customization.

I understand the team was under a pretty intense crunch, but currently the races are not completed compared to the other races.

• Please distinguish Hrothgar's hairstyles from their faces, and fit current hairstyles to them
  
• Please add current hairstyles to Viera
  
• Please fit ALL helmets and headgear to both Viera and Hrothgar
  
• Please add both genders to both races

I understand that this expansion has provided an incredible premium gaming experience, but please complete these races.

So long as the other playable races receive additional customisation options, sure!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

So long as the other playable races receive additional customisation options, sure!

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.. honestly 3 of these are just standards for every other race. Bringing them up to snuff isn't like giving them extra attention.

The gender thing is an entire other argument but if you just consider the 2 races to be equal to one race expansion, but the ability to use the generic hairstyles every other race enjoys along with at least graphical representations of armor that all other races can wear and display is kind of a baseline expectation eventually.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

.. honestly 3 of these are just standards for every other race. Bringing them up to snuff isn't like giving them extra attention.

The gender thing is an entire other argument but if you just consider the 2 races to be equal to one race expansion, but the ability to use the generic hairstyles every other race enjoys along with at least graphical representations of armor that all other races can wear and display is kind of a baseline expectation eventually.

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I was going to say the same. I'm not asking for "additional" features, I'm asking for the -base- features to be included. Honestly, if Viera could wear the headgear in game that EVERY race could wear before this expansion, I would've race swapped.

Been playing since 1.0. After the poll showing everyone really wanted Viera after finishing the missing genders to Miqote and Roegadyn, I made an alt to switch. I've been waiting since the end of 1.x like many players for this race, and to see it wasn't fully developed like the other races; that alone completely killed my hype for the expansion. It was such a disappointment.

The expansion is still incredible, but these races will always be incomplete until they finish them. So please, SE, finish these races. m(_ _)m

To be fair, every playable race has some major glaring flaw at the moment in terms of customisation. Highlander men can't have authentic eyebrows at the moment for example - which is just as bad, in my eyes, as Viera and Hrothgar having no access to certain hairstyles and the inability to wear certain headgear. They do, however, have higher quality textures to compensate.

I have actually been thinking about switching back to Au Ra a lot lately, but that might just be because I will be getting money soon, and I have a fantasia addiction.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair, every playable race has some major glaring flaw at the moment in terms of customisation. Highlander men can't have authentic eyebrows at the moment for example - which is just as bad, in my eyes, as Viera and Hrothgar having no access to certain hairstyles and the inability to wear certain headgear. They do, however, have higher quality textures to compensate.

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Eh, on this one I have to disagree. You know I would like to see more things added to the original races, especially midlander, but Viera in particular, should get their bit finished first before even thinking about expanding upon their customization. Don't think we are going to be getting the other hairstyles for Hrothgar, but they could at least have some headgear, I think the Ronkan heavy helmet shows up on them, but I might be wrong. The new races are obviously in a way 'early access'; they are incomplete.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair, every playable race has some major glaring flaw at the moment in terms of customisation. Highlander men can't have authentic eyebrows at the moment for example - which is just as bad, in my eyes, as Viera and Hrothgar having no access to certain hairstyles and the inability to wear certain headgear. They do, however, have higher quality textures to compensate.

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Thats.. kind of disparate though.
Yes the eyebrows thing is a flaw. But nearly every helmet in the game is inaccessible to the new races, along with hairstyles that sometimes cost millions of gil or an equivalent time investment. That's more than just one glaring flaw.

.. DO they have higher quality textures? Where?

OP I think you're being whiny and impatient. You acknowledge the crunch, but that should be enough. Knowing how much Yoshi-P and the team strive for the best they can give players in a reasonable timeframe, it should be obvious they're not just gonna stop. But they're also preforming the ultimate juggling act so it's gonna take a hot minute to give the players the complete everything.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

To be fair, every playable race has some major glaring flaw at the moment in terms of customisation. Highlander men can't have authentic eyebrows at the moment for example - which is just as bad, in my eyes, as Viera and Hrothgar having no access to certain hairstyles and the inability to wear certain headgear. They do, however, have higher quality textures to compensate.

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That's not even remotely the same. How is an issue with eyebrows even close to being on the same level as missing every single hairstyle that previously existed, a huge number of helmets, and having a voice that is straight up broken with no way to preview that before you make your character (granted, it's reached meme status now, but still)?

Customization as a whole could use some improvement (like say, letting us preview combat sounds, hmmmm SE?), and I'm always down for more options for everyone, but Viera and Hrothgar need more than just a little bit of work.

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Originally Posted by Gula

OP I think you're being whiny and impatient. You acknowledge the crunch, but that should be enough. Knowing how much Yoshi-P and the team strive for the best they can give players in a reasonable timeframe, it should be obvious they're not just gonna stop. But they're also preforming the ultimate juggling act so it's gonna take a hot minute to give the players the complete everything.

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How? OP didn't demand they be finished now. They simply asked that they be finished. Those here in opposition are really reaching for reasons to oppose.

They aren't finished. All OP wants is for this to not be their final form. I don't think that's unreasonable, whiny, or impatient, but go off, I guess.

I have mog station helms on my viera that don't work. I had hoped when they said some helms were made to work with the new races that at least the ones people paid out of pocket for would work. I was hoping that at least the unlockable hairstyles would work with the new races. As viera are one of the few races in game that I can give a distinctly Native Latin American appearance to, I won't be switching to any other races any time soon. I'm just sad that helms and hairstyles I could grind in game or IRL for (work is a grind) simply do not work on the race that represents me IRL most.

Here's to hoping they do get finished eventually.

I don't have the exact quote but didn't the team say some hairstyles would be included in upcoming patches but not all? Sure I would love to see all of them and additional customization for Hrothgar. I don't think we'll get everything we want but they do appear to be working on adding a lot more.

The fact that these races aren't complete only goes to show how difficult is was to add them both to the expansion. Personally I don't think we'll see any additional races unless they are willing to put out incomplete ones which don't have access to all the gear or hair and so on. I'm sure that wouldn't go over very will with many but it's probably the only way they could add the missing gendars after having to not only fit the current gear but all the gear etc coming in 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Gula

OP I think you're being whiny and impatient. You acknowledge the crunch, but that should be enough. Knowing how much Yoshi-P and the team strive for the best they can give players in a reasonable timeframe, it should be obvious they're not just gonna stop. But they're also preforming the ultimate juggling act so it's gonna take a hot minute to give the players the complete everything.

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Funny. I think you're being lax and you have very low standards. Keep the ad hominem out of the discussion, okay?

As a matter of fact these two races are incomplete. I really love Shb and the team did an amazing job. That doesn't change the fact.
But I also hate that I can't equip almost all head gear. A reason to change my race back, at least for me. I hope they address the shortcomings soon. And tying faces to haircuts is a big no, no.

Does anyone know anything official in that regard? Can't say I've heard anything.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I have actually been thinking about switching back to Au Ra a lot lately, but that might just be because I will be getting money soon, and I have a fantasia addiction.

Eh, on this one I have to disagree. You know I would like to see more things added to the original races, especially midlander, but Viera in particular, should get their bit finished first before even thinking about expanding upon their customization. Don't think we are going to be getting the other hairstyles for Hrothgar, but they could at least have some headgear, I think the Ronkan heavy helmet shows up on them, but I might be wrong. The new races are obviously in a way 'early access'; they are incomplete.

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They've already stated that Hrothgar will be getting more Hrothgar specific hairstyles and potentially more faces. It came from Yoshi P himself in an interview.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Funny. I think you're being lax and you have very low standards. Keep the ad hominem out of the discussion, okay?

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I recognize that people are people and no amount of money can magic something into immediate existence. It will take time, and it'll get here when it gets here. Maybe take some Tai Chi and see things from a chill perspective.

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Originally Posted by Gula

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From what I read, it didn't seem like the OP was demanding anything immediately.

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Originally Posted by Gula

I recognize that people are people and no amount of money can magic something into immediate existence. It will take time, and it'll get here when it gets here. Maybe take some Tai Chi and see things from a chill perspective.

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I saw nothing but chill in the original request. Just a "please don't forget, we still want these things for our new races"

I just want to know if Hrothgar will get access to all the hairstyles. I love them a lot but I feel like I cant make one as long as I need to fantasia their hair. I love face 1 but not their hair, but I love hair 2 on face 2, and I want to have that combo. Until I know for sure that I can make that combo, I feel like I can't make a hrothgar at this time.

Viera, I will say I am a little miffed that so many look the same. Since there is only 1 (technically two) short hair option, every short haired viera looks kind of the same at first glance. Getting the popular base hairs, and the unlockable ones would be great, aside from a couple, small edits, they can probably use the Miqo's or Au'Ra's hair to save work.

For Hrothgar, having more options would be nice, but human hair styles (like the gyr'abanian plait) might look strange on them so I am not too fussed if they dont get everything.

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Originally Posted by Kirajah

I just want to know if Hrothgar will get access to all the hairstyles. I love them a lot but I feel like I cant make one as long as I need to fantasia their hair. I love face 1 but not their hair, but I love hair 2 on face 2, and I want to have that combo. Until I know for sure that I can make that combo, I feel like I can't make a hrothgar at this time.

Viera, I will say I am a little miffed that so many look the same. Since there is only 1 (technically two) short hair option, every short haired viera looks kind of the same at first glance. Getting the popular base hairs, and the unlockable ones would be great, aside from a couple, small edits, they can probably use the Miqo's or Au'Ra's hair to save work.

For Hrothgar, having more options would be nice, but human hair styles (like the gyr'abanian plait) might look strange on them so I am not too fussed if they dont get everything.

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No one can say for certain if they'll eventually add the ability to mix the hair options they have between the different faces, but I highly doubt they'll add the hairstyles that other races have to it, like your gyr abanian plait example. Yoshi P did say they'd be getting more race specific hairstyles, possibly with new faces. One can hope all the Hrothgar styles will be available to all faces one day! :D

Your Feedback was already addressed.
They already plan to add more Hairstyles to both races. Fitting the Headgear will take time, they are already working on that.
Adding Male Viera and Female Hrothgar is very likely to happen in the future (maybe next expansion) it was already explained that it takes alot of time and resources to make a race, they just barley finished Hrothgar on time.

Viera have a better chance at getting access to all the hairstyles. But Hrothgar are special in the case that these are Custom Made Heads. an animal head won't easily be able to wear human hair the same way all the other human head models can. So likely the Hrothgar will have their own unique Hairstyles tied to their heads.

I don’t know if they will fix them. This reminds me of Au Ra when everyone asked them to separate the horns from the faces and they didn’t do that, and that seemed like a simple thing to do. There was only one combination of horns/face I would have used and since I couldn’t choose both, I don’t play Au Ra now.

I hope you guys get your fixes. It’s just SE seems to do this and I don’t know why. Now that’s it’s already done they are gonna say it can’t be done because it wasn’t done like that originally

I wonder how many of these threads the Forum is gonna get....
These Complaints, the Feedback, Critique....this stuff has already been addressed by YoshiP himself.

He makes no Promises on Male Viera or Female Hrothgar.
But everything else was already addressed and being worked on. Be patient people. Constantly making these threads isn't gonna make it happen any faster

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I wonder how many of these threads the Forum is gonna get....
These Complaints, the Feedback, Critique....this stuff has already been addressed by YoshiP himself.

He makes no Promises on Male Viera or Female Hrothgar.
But everything else was already addressed and being worked on. Be patient people. Constantly making these threads isn't gonna make it happen any faster

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Could you please link the direct quotes of where Yoshi P said these things? Maybe video links during interviews / fanfests or in articles? That would be super appreciated.

If you take a quick glance at the comments, I think you'll find confusion on if these features will be addressed or not. Most people either don't know or "heard somewhere." Not at all trying to be rude, but what I'm asking for is not wholly unexpected. Also, I have not seen many threads discussing this. There is one thread back when the benchmark was released that questioned the Hrothgars face being tied to hair and briefly discussed viea's hair options being very limited, but no official request thread I had seen has been made. Please correct me if I'm wrong ^^

Also, I've seen a majority of positive and helpful feedback. Many players are very happy with this expansion, bar the feedback that seem far more personal (I agree with the villains therefore I hate the story? I had a bad experience in a party therefore the whole game is garbage, I don't like the content that is being released therefore my opinion is objectively a factual point to debate with). By all means I'm not trying to say those players shouldn't give feedback, but I do see my feedback as different given the evidence of the quality of content given thus far compared to what we have now. [EDIT] I did include my opinion with the feedback to provide a little bit of cause / effect for the devs to know how this has impacted my gameplay, but I still think the majority of my feedback was appropriately placed. I do think opinions are appropriate feedback, because that is the effect of the game on it's player's experience, which I do believe is absolutely essential for the devs to know. I just wanted to elaborate on a few of the comments this feedback has received, however.

Also, I never intended to sound whiny or impatient. I waited after launch to see if there would be any announcements or comments from the devs or gms. I also did not demand this to be done now, or next patch, or the next patch after that. I simply asked for this to be taken into consideration.

Thanks for the responses, I still hope SE will address these issues and fix them, because this is a wonderfully crafted game! :)

I don't get why Viera players want headgear that hides the ears, the defining feature of the race, can someone enlighten me? Or is the the desire for hats with ear holes, like Miqote?

As a happy Hrothgar anything that hides my face/head is a big no no for me personally (outside of the meme hats like the frog/pig), otherwise I may as well go back to Roe.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

I don't get why Viera players want headgear that hides the ears, the defining feature of the race, can someone enlighten me? Or is the the desire for hats with ear holes, like Miqote?

As a happy Hrothgar anything that hides my face/head is a big no no for me personally (outside of the meme hats like the frog/pig), otherwise I may as well go back to Roe.

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I'd be ok with hats that have ear holes. Let my ears poke out of hats, whatever. It's gotten to the point where I just have to laugh every time I try on a helmet and there's just nothing there xD

Luckily some of my favs do show - the summer sunglasses, for instance. Some glasses do seem to rest a bit oddly on the nose, but I'm glad they show at all. Also a fan of the paladin artifact helmet, though it's really more of a forehead chain?

But yeah it's really a matter of having more options. And being able to use some of those stylish bard hats I've collected over the years...

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I don't have the exact quote but didn't the team say some hairstyles would be included in upcoming patches but not all? Sure I would love to see all of them and additional customization for Hrothgar. I don't think we'll get everything we want but they do appear to be working on adding a lot more.

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I think that refers to hairstyles that aren't available on miqo'te either, like the what used to be roegadyn-locked Skrillex and bald+ponytail styles. As in, hairstyles that would look weird AF without humanoid ears.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Could you please link the direct quotes of where Yoshi P said these things? Maybe video links during interviews / fanfests or in articles? That would be super appreciated.

If you take a quick glance at the comments, I think you'll find confusion on if these features will be addressed or not. Most people either don't know or "heard somewhere." Not at all trying to be rude, but what I'm asking for is not wholly unexpected. Also, I have not seen many threads discussing this. There is one thread back when the benchmark was released that questioned the Hrothgars face being tied to hair and briefly discussed viea's hair options being very limited, but no official request thread I had seen has been made. Please correct me if I'm wrong ^^

Also, I've seen a majority of positive and helpful feedback. Many players are very happy with this expansion, bar the feedback that seem far more personal (I agree with the villains therefore I hate the story? I had a bad experience in a party therefore the whole game is garbage, I don't like the content that is being released therefore my opinion is objectively a factual point to debate with). By all means I'm not trying to say those players shouldn't give feedback, but I do see my feedback as different given the evidence of the quality of content given thus far compared to what we have now. [EDIT] I did include my opinion with the feedback to provide a little bit of cause / effect for the devs to know how this has impacted my gameplay, but I still think the majority of my feedback was appropriately placed. I do think opinions are appropriate feedback, because that is the effect of the game on it's player's experience, which I do believe is absolutely essential for the devs to know. I just wanted to elaborate on a few of the comments this feedback has received, however.

Also, I never intended to sound whiny or impatient. I waited after launch to see if there would be any announcements or comments from the devs or gms. I also did not demand this to be done now, or next patch, or the next patch after that. I simply asked for this to be taken into consideration.

Thanks for the responses, I still hope SE will address these issues and fix them, because this is a wonderfully crafted game! :)

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Translated Famitsu Article from E3:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...m_source=share

I agree that these are reasonable things to ask for. I especially want my Blackbosom Hat
back for Viera. Also don't pay attention when someone is calling people requesting stuff "whiny." It seems to be a trend that anytime someone is not 100% satisfied that people who are ok with things being incomplete decide to say things like that. Viera are amazing but I'm not unaware of the fact that them and Hrothgar are limited races.

definitely would be nice to wear all the AF helmets

Translated Yoshi P statement:
"Since Hrothgar have hairstyles tied to their character creation options rather than being separately selectable, you will not be able to apply unlockable hairstyles, but they might implement more face types after 5.0. As for Viera, there's some legacy haristyles they'll able to eventually implement, but not all of them. Some of unlockable hairstyles should be supported, others may not be."

So, this is a very vague statement. On one hand, it's translated by... someone, I don't know who. I clicked the source link and there weren't any official english translations, so to take this translation at face value is taking it with a HUGE grain of salt. Secondly, the statement itself is very open ended and does not address the real issue (imo) of the races.

Hrothgar: The faces SHOULD NOT BE TIED to the hairstyles. This insinuates that 1. Paid for hairstyles MAY or MAY NOT work - that's a very huge grey area that leaves a lot of wiggle room for the developers. 2. Adding faces (imo) seems like a pretty big undertaking, so the devs tying more hairstyles directly with more faces seems like they're putting far more work ahead of them instead of just adding hairstyles alone. In other words, this feature (more hairstyles) means more faces, which is a lot of work.

Viera: Some of the hairstyles will be unlocked, some won't. Again, big grey area.

Look, I know this is a lot of work, and I can definitely see them wanting to put their focus on the overall experience (story / jobs / environment / effects) over more customization. My name is not Ms. Final Fantasy XIV or Ms. Square Enix, I'm fully aware this is not -my- game. However, our feedback HAS shaped this game.

Just a few examples of how feedback has changed this game:
1. There is no longer an XP 'cooldown' or block - you can get as much xp as you want anytime you want
2. The entire aetheryte / fast travel system
3. Marketboards
4. Male Miqote, Female Roegadyn, Female Highlander
5. Ishgard in its entirety
Plus many many more features (movable HUD, UI settings, etc etc)

Am I saying players are solely responsible for these changes? Well... to a degree, yes. I'm sure Yoshi had planned on adding some of these features, but if you enjoy any of those, you have us on the forums, whining and complaining, to thank for these being implemented.

There's always positive and negative feedback. There's a right way and a very wrong way to give feedback.

Honestly, Viera and Hrothgar and Yoshi's statement just isn't acceptable. It doesn't mean this game is terrible. It doesn't mean people should quit. It doesn't mean.. honestly much in the long term of things. However, these are still features that SHOULD be in the game in holding true to their commitment to making this a fully quality experience.

So please, SE, change your mind on these races and take the time and resources to complete them. Let them be the last, fully, completed races!

Yoshi is well aware of the Request for the missing genders and they are working on head gear for viera and Hrothgar
he has made a big statement about all of this
he cant promise anything just in-case they cant do it
doubting him isnt really gonna help the situation

i suggest Little arrow you post in the Female Hrothgar and Male viera support threads

head gear thing is just a matter of time they are working on them

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Yoshi is well aware of the Request for the missing genders and they are working on head gear for viera and Hrothgar
he has made a big statement about all of this
he cant promise anything just in-case they cant do it
doubting him isnt really gonna help the situation

i suggest Little arrow you post in the Female Hrothgar and Male viera support threads

head gear thing is just a matter of time they are working on them

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Hey thanks for the post, but I very much disagree with your response.

You're speaking as if their vague response is a solid promise. It isn't. Also, what they have responded with, just isn't enough imo.

Like I posted in my last response, it's due to these forums and players requests that this game is the way it is. I will continue to support my feedback request and focus on the headgear and full completion of the races. Thank you though, I really appreciate your insight :)

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

I know this has gone without saying for some people, but SE please continue to fully develop Viera and Hrothgar character customization.

I understand the team was under a pretty intense crunch, but currently the races are not completed compared to the other races.

• Please distinguish Hrothgar's hairstyles from their faces, and fit current hairstyles to them
  
• Please add current hairstyles to Viera
  
• Please fit ALL helmets and headgear to both Viera and Hrothgar
  
• Please add both genders to both races

I understand that this expansion has provided an incredible premium gaming experience, but please complete these races.

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1: Yeah that's silly. That being said, Au'ra have been waiting to have their horns separated from their faces for how long now?
2: Yes. I don't even understand why this has to be brought up.. Viera have normally-shaped heads, why don't we have all the normal hairstyles that the Miqo'te have?
3: Yes. Again, this should have gone along with releasing a new race. This is an expected step and the fact they didn't feel it was worth taking is troubling. Some of their programmers had to do the ones we have themselves on their own time. That should not have happened.
4: Not going to happen. You're not asking for character customization here, you're asking for 2 new race choices and it would come with all the other stuff you're asking for here. It may happen sometime in the future, but it's an expansion-level change.

100% agree with the OP. I love my Viera but I want to see her have all the options any other race has. The coolest hat dropped in a dungeon last night. Had I been a Miqote or an Au Ra, it would have shown on my character. Neither of those races are my style though.

They've already commented about the hair as been stated in this thread. Viera will get "some" of the shared hairs but not all and Hrothgar will get new Hrothgar only hairs and new faces.



What I personally would like to see is, after that, when ever a new hair is added to the Mog or game Hrothgar get a new fur pattern linked to unlocking it. I mean, in a better world we would just get new Hrothgar hair every time they add hair to this game but if they don't do that then at LEAST give us more patterns as a reward for unlocking that on these characters. You can do meem stuff like symbols or shapes such as stars or hearts ... or do any number of animal patterns we don't have. Like Bengal pattern, calico pattern, Marbled/ Braided stripes/ Pin stripes pattern!

Hope they do something to fix the whole "Hrothgar need to use a potion to change hair styles" thing. That's a REAL big over sight.

I personally think they're never making the hats and helms fit. If only because of that unappealing looking "bent ear" option for Viera. Sure, any other ear could have a ear hole area or just clip once to get there if they wanted to make it work even if it looks trash ... but the bent ears with a big brimmed hat? That ish would poke right through the brim and look extra NOPE yet they were ok with adding those ears. Makes me think they don't have plans to add hats.

The bent ears aren't anymore problematic than my giant spider-jaw-horns. Seriously, if they can make the aura's fit in every helmet, they can easily do the same for viera.

I know I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up, but I was really hoping to read more headgear had been fitted with 5.01. Please SE, please complete these races :)

They have already said that that is their intent.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

They have already said that that is their intent.

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Heya! I posted a couple times in response to the actual fan-translated quote. They didn't actually say this specifically compared to what I"m asking for. They said more or less "some head gear, at some point, maybe"

I also no longer take vague off the hand statements Yoshi makes at face value any longer. He's broken multiple promises to fans in the past. Basically, the most effective manner for player feedback to be represented in game is through petitions and feedback.

Not trying to take a dig at Yoshi. I have no idea what it entails to develop a game, and I still think they're doing a great job :D

I want more color palettes like yellow, orange, and red, why I can't make my hrothgar (helions clan only) a tiger like or Red XIII, not including such colors is beyond me





https://i.imgur.com/SvPit0A.png

Some options can't be implemented, especially for Hrothgar, because of how they've used the "fixed template" of character creator options in ways it wasn't intended to work.

They've taken the hairstyle setting (with its linked base colour + highlight colour settings) and used that to implement two-toned fur patterns. There absolutely should be more varieties of pattern available as compensation, but the option for picking individual hairstyles is gone. It does not exist for Hrothgar. There is something else filling that space.

It's also worth noting that already the "eight Hrothgar faces" are actually four faces, each with two hairstyle options (plus variants to make four per face). Any further faces/hairstyles are almost certainly going to replicate the same faces again and add another different hairstyle.

This unusual workaround may also mean that hats/helmets on Hrothgar are permanently impossible, as it's not programmed like normal hair and may not be able to 'vanish' so it doesn't clip through equipped headgear.


Viera have less reason to have the hairstyles restricted, and their current hairstyles aren't really designed with their ears in mind anyway, so I'm not sure what the holdup is there.