Collective Unconscious and Sacred Soil

Hello,
I've been wondering for a while about it, and i cant figure it out:
Before ShadowBringers, collective unconscious was a real powerhouse of healing, you could 'potencialy' keep it up for 15s, so people could get it up to 27s at most, and extend it, and it had 150 potency, meaning if you only casted it for the first tick, and extended it, it was a 25s heal, for a total of about 1200 potency.
If Celestial opposition could still extend the time, the nerf would have been ok, but now that you cannot extend it, i dont understand, it went from a 1200 max potency heal to a 250 max potency heal.
If that nerf was to make Asylum, which is in a way the WHM equivalent of CU, seem stronger, ok, CU still has the damage reduction, and is on the same cooldown, so it would have been half potency and shield.
BUT then come into play Sacred soil, the SCH's dome which was always about damage reduction, and which has, for no real justification, gain a 100 potency heal regen for 15s.
Meaning SCH has a 500 potency 10% damage reduction Dome, usable every 30s.
I remember a time where the justification for "regen" healer to not have shields is because they had regen, and "shielding" healer didnt have strong regen because... they have shield, so how come SCH gets a powerfull regen ability, and AST get the one he had nerfed to the ground?
The only thing that's doing, is further increase the SCH superiority over the nocturnal AST, and makes the SCH healing kit even more insane that it was before.

CU was very overpowered in stormblood, but I'll agree that the nerf was way too heavy handed and sacred soil is really strong right now. CU definitely needs a buff, I think putting it back up to 100 potency would fine. Sacred soil is as strong as it is because the it isn't "free" like asylum or CU. The opportunity cost of using a sacred soil is not being able to use that aetherflow stack on indom/excog/lustrate. That being said though, it's up for debate whether sacred soil is too strong right now. I haven't quite decided the answer to that myself yet, but I would not be surprised nor would I be upset if sacred soil got a small potency nerf on the regen. I will say this though, the 10% damage reduction alone on sacred soil prior to shadowbringers was an extremely underwhelming way to spend an aetherflow stack; before enhanced sacred soil, it was almost always a waste to use unless it actually prevented people from dying.

Well, i would be fine if SS was 15% reduction, 20% would feel too powerfull (or would need an increased cooldown)

CU should be imo:
noct => 10% reduction
Diurnal => 80 regen potency
Both: 5-8% damage buff to people in the dome while it is chaincasted (would need to do the math for it to be a buff to party while taking into consideration AST cannot move/cast)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Docteur_Fluttershy

Well, i would be fine if SS was 15% reduction, 20% would feel too powerfull (or would need an increased cooldown)

CU should be imo:
noct => 10% reduction
Diurnal => 80 regen potency
Both: 5-8% damage buff to people in the dome while it is chaincasted (would need to do the math for it to be a buff to party while taking into consideration AST cannot move/cast)

---

I think CU should keep its 10% damage reduction regardless, otherwise Diurnal AST has no raid mitigation.

I think:

Collective Unconscious
Either increase the heal potency to say 80, or extend the duration to 24s.

Celestial Opposition
Either increase the initial cure potency to 200, or reduce the recast to 60s.

I would say buff the potency of one, and alter the duration/recast of the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Docteur_Fluttershy

CU should be imo:
noct => 10% reduction
Diurnal => 80 regen potency
Both: 5-8% damage buff to people in the dome while it is chaincasted (would need to do the math for it to be a buff to party while taking into consideration AST cannot move/cast)

---

Back in 3.0, Collective Unconscious used to only give damage reduction while in Noct sect—it only had a regen in Diurnal. No one used it, so they added the regen to it so that both sects basically did the same thing. I don’t think reverting to this would be a good idea, especially since Noct AST is still more expensive and less efficient compared to Diurnal AST. Let’s not make that more so—the regen is more important than the mitigation, as it was usually used for the former as opposed to the latter in most instances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

CU was very overpowered in stormblood, but I'll agree that the nerf was way too heavy handed and sacred soil is really strong right now. CU definitely needs a buff, I think putting it back up to 100 potency would fine. Sacred soil is as strong as it is because the it isn't "free" like asylum or CU. The opportunity cost of using a sacred soil is not being able to use that aetherflow stack on indom/excog/lustrate. That being said though, it's up for debate whether sacred soil is too strong right now. I haven't quite decided the answer to that myself yet, but I would not be surprised nor would I be upset if sacred soil got a small potency nerf on the regen. I will say this though, the 10% damage reduction alone on sacred soil prior to shadowbringers was an extremely underwhelming way to spend an aetherflow stack; before enhanced sacred soil, it was almost always a waste to use unless it actually prevented people from dying.

---

Let's be honest here. What are you using Aetherflow stacks on at this point? Scholars are throwing down Sacred Soils for giggles now because they literally don't need to use all their AF before it comes off cooldown. The opportunity cost is more or less an illusion. CU needs to brought back to what it was in SB or brought down to a 60s CD with 100 potency regen. Unless, of course, they do renege and let Scholar have Energy Drain back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Let's be honest here. What are you using Aetherflow stacks on at this point? Scholars are throwing down Sacred Soils for giggles now because they literally don't need to use all their AF before it comes off cooldown. The opportunity cost is more or less an illusion. CU needs to brought back to what it was in SB or brought down to a 60s CD with 100 potency regen. Unless, of course, they do renege and let Scholar have Energy Drain back.

---

Scholars having nothing to spend their aetherflow on is a whole separate problem unrelated to this. Right now I lustrate for about 20k. If I want to dump an aetherflow stack on a sacred soil right now, it has to at least be better than a lustrate, meaning it will mitigate more than 20k damage. This happens most often when raidwide damage goes out. But then it's a waste unless that damage would kill people or in the rare scenario where both healers have no more aoe healing cooldowns left available. The other instance this would happen is when the tank would take 200k or more damage over sacred soil's duration. How often does this happen actually? I'd say very rarely. I'd very much rather to not have to use a stack on the current sacred soil if I don't need to, that's true. I'd also rather sacred soil not be reverted to it's near-useless state where a meager lustrate is usually a far better option.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

Scholars having nothing to spend their aetherflow on is a whole separate problem unrelated to this. Right now I lustrate for about 20k. If I want to dump an aetherflow stack on a sacred soil right now, it has to at least be better than a lustrate, meaning it will mitigate more than 20k damage. This happens most often when raidwide damage goes out. But then it's a waste unless that damage would kill people or in the rare scenario where both healers have no more aoe healing cooldowns left available. The other instance this would happen is when the tank would take 200k or more damage over sacred soil's duration. How often does this happen actually? I'd say very rarely. I'd very much rather to not have to use a stack on the current sacred soil if I don't need to, that's true. I'd also rather sacred soil not be reverted to it's near-useless state where a meager lustrate is usually a far better option.

---

SS also has a regen AoE now, with 100 potency regen, which mean 500 potency heal AoE.
That's the point we're discussing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Docteur_Fluttershy

SS also has a regen AoE now, with 100 potency regen, which mean 500 potency heal AoE.
That's the point we're discussing.

---

Yes and not the one I was responding to. I was responding to someone arguing that the opportunity cost was not present, something that I cited for the reason being sacred soil was so strong. Here I was directly comparing the old sacred soil the the opportunity cost of a lustrate, and stating why I wouldn't waste a stack on the old soil even if I had extra stacks. This is arguing against the people (including you, right?) who feel like having a regen at all is too powerful. Increasing the mitigation on sacred soil is not a good solution either. Doing this would resign it to being nothing more than an additional tank cooldown in dungeons, and would trivialize many instances where coordinated mitigation was needed in raid by letting the sch pretty much solo mitigate it (here I'm specifically thinking of morn afahs from ucob and primal roulette from uwu). I said what I said because while 500 potency may be too strong, removing the regen and giving it extra mitigation like you suggested is an extremely bad idea.

Well, i proposed to up the mitigation because it was supposed to be the primary role of the dome since ARR, and now every healer has the same damage reduction tool. (where SCH had an advantage in there before.)
A 100 potency regen on OGCD which tick 5 times and reduce damage is a nobrainer for aetherflow, its more powerfull than indom, lustrate or excog. Unless there is no party buster or everyone has to run everywhere for 15s, or any other very specific situation.

AST got scammed. No idea why Sacred Soil is stronger. It has 50% uptime and can get its full value without us being rooted and unable to act. Classic Square. CU should be (if rooted) STRONGER than Sacred Soil or at least similar. If AST has to give up doing ANY HEALING and ANY DPS to get the full value out of a move, it should be really, really strong. Imagine sitting there for 10 seconds doing nothing for a weaker regen and similar shield, but SCH has weaved Sacred Soil oGCD and is now... I don't know... healing? DPS? Moving? doing anything. It's such a dumb decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubiss

AST got scammed. No idea why Sacred Soil is stronger. It has 50% uptime and can get its full value without us being rooted and unable to act. Classic Square. CU should be (if rooted) STRONGER than Sacred Soil or at least similar. If AST has to give up doing ANY HEALING and ANY DPS to get the full value out of a move, it should be really, really strong. Imagine sitting there for 10 seconds doing nothing for a weaker regen and similar shield, but SCH has weaved Sacred Soil oGCD and is now... I don't know... healing? DPS? Moving? doing anything. It's such a dumb decision.

---

Please don't ignore that Sacred Soil costs an aetherflow stack, and does not have a 50% uptime. For one thing its a 100 potency regen ticks for five times, making it a 500 potency cure over 15 seconds (unbuffable), so there is almost no reason you would ever use all three stacks per minute on it when at least one should be used for Excogitation with its 800 potency targeted tank heal. Furthermore you have to weigh the idea of 500 potency over 15 seconds with everyone staying in the bubble (see; melee positioning for flank/backstabs) versus an immediate ogcd 400 indomitability that doesn't need to be floor targetted.

The reason they gave Sacred Soil an additional effect is because as a straight mitigation bubble no one really ever bothered to use it outside of cutting-edge progression moments, because its value for an aether stack was extremely low. You threw out Soil in Ultimate and Savage when an AoE was tuned to kill you otherwise, but now with other classes packing their own mitigation bubble like PLD and the other two healers, its value over either Energy Drain or even a Lustrate was just negligible.

Did I want a regen on it to make it feel like the other other healers? No, no I would have wanted something more original. Do I think it's pretty strong now as it is? Yes, its value has gone up a fair amount and it doesn't feel as wasteful to use. I would have preferred it not been a homogenized regen-bubble, but given its stack cost I understand that they didn't want it to be weak.

Do I think CU is weak? I've always felt it was weak, simply because you have to stand there and channel it. A move that locks you out of action is garbage, and I still stand by the assertion that it will always be garbage as long as that aspect remains true. But don't oversell Sacred Soil, because the grass isn't as green as you seem to think it is on that side of the fence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

Please don't ignore that Sacred Soil costs an aetherflow stack, and does not have a 50% uptime. For one thing its a 100 potency regen ticks for five times, making it a 500 potency cure over 15 seconds (unbuffable), so there is almost no reason you would ever use all three stacks per minute on it when at least one should be used for Excogitation with its 800 potency targeted tank heal. Furthermore you have to weigh the idea of 500 potency over 15 seconds with everyone staying in the bubble (see; melee positioning for flank/backstabs) versus an immediate ogcd 400 indomitability that doesn't need to be floor targetted.

The reason they gave Sacred Soil an additional effect is because as a straight mitigation bubble no one really ever bothered to use it outside of cutting-edge progression moments, because its value for an aether stack was extremely low. You threw out Soil in Ultimate and Savage when an AoE was tuned to kill you otherwise, but now with other classes packing their own mitigation bubble like PLD and the other two healers, its value over either Energy Drain or even a Lustrate was just negligible.
.

---

Here is the thing though it can have a 50% uptime
sacred soil stats
-costs 1 aetherflow
-cd 30 secs
-15s duration
-its ogcd
-sch can freely move after use
-100 potency ground hot for 15s
-10% dmg mitigation
-can be deployed 30y away
-has a radius of 8y

so every min you can have sacred soil up for 30s for 2 aetherflow stacks leaving 1 for anything like excog,indom,lustrate, is this efficient? maybe depends on situation but it is something sch has access to and with no energy drain or bane they lose no dps using it thus its cost is very minor.

Ast CU on the other hand
-forces ast to remain stationary
-applies regen if enter bubble and stays on if leave
-10% dmg mitigation only in bubble
-50 potency regen that lasts from 15s to max 33s(this never ever happens ever)
-has 90s cd
-6y radius around ast

You can start to see why CU vs SS is glaring with which is better, CU is just impractical outside downtime or you will die moments where SS does not really have this issue. The time it takes ast to get the bubble up and regen on everyone, sch could do it and be healing/dpsing much more with little consequence and that is a glaring problem. SS should be inferior to CU.

Many options for them to buff it.

- Reduce the CD to 60s.
- Keep the CD as is but buff the HoT to 80 or 100 potency.
- Make the mitigation stay on people like the HoT once they enter the bubble.

But the current one can't stand as it is. It took a double nerf in the teeth. It was indeed incredibily strong back in SB, with its potency alone but also because we because we could expend the duration.We no longer can do that, so 50 potency to me feels too much for a nerf.

Take out the aetherflow requirement on SS, and i'll be fine with it being weaker then CU.

On second thought, I'm fine with CU being stronger than SS....

Just please stop using terrible reasoning to justify nerfing SS. Buff CU instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ftail

On second thought, I'm fine with CU being stronger than SS....

Just please stop using terrible reasoning to justify nerfing SS. Buff CU instead.

---

I'm not saying SS should be nerfed, i'm just saying it should be weaker than CU(I would prefer CU brought up than the alternative) because of the rooting in place, shorter range, tied to ast rather than a placement and longer cd (currently)

I cant help but wonder if the reason they nerfed CU is because they put that potency onto CO. Maybe they wanted us to chain the two to emulate extending it? Not saying it's a good idea but it's a thought that's been amusing me the whole time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

CU was very overpowered in stormblood, but I'll agree that the nerf was way too heavy handed and sacred soil is really strong right now. CU definitely needs a buff, I think putting it back up to 100 potency would fine. Sacred soil is as strong as it is because the it isn't "free" like asylum or CU. The opportunity cost of using a sacred soil is not being able to use that aetherflow stack on indom/excog/lustrate. That being said though, it's up for debate whether sacred soil is too strong right now. I haven't quite decided the answer to that myself yet, but I would not be surprised nor would I be upset if sacred soil got a small potency nerf on the regen. I will say this though, the 10% damage reduction alone on sacred soil prior to shadowbringers was an extremely underwhelming way to spend an aetherflow stack; before enhanced sacred soil, it was almost always a waste to use unless it actually prevented people from dying.

---

Please be honest with yourself about SS's cost. There are countless threads complaining about the excessive aetherflows after losing ED. The opportunity cost of SS is almost neglectable. Compared to SS, CU has a 3 times CD( 30s vs 90s), half potency (500 vs 250), and more importantly rooted condition (means AST has to chanel it the whole time!) All this makes me feel if CU does not have a much stronger potency than SS, it is just ridiculous!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanFrench

Please be honest with yourself about SS's cost. There are countless threads complaining about the excessive aetherflows after losing ED. The opportunity cost of SS is almost neglectable. Compared to SS, CU has a 3 times CD( 30s vs 90s), half potency (500 vs 250), and more importantly rooted condition (means AST has to chanel it the whole time!) All this makes me feel if CU does not have a much stronger potency than SS, it is just ridiculous!

---

People haven't just been complaining about having excessive aetherflow. I've seen many SCH posts refer to the problem as feast/famine issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanFrench

Please be honest with yourself about SS's cost. There are countless threads complaining about the excessive aetherflows after losing ED. The opportunity cost of SS is almost neglectable. Compared to SS, CU has a 3 times CD( 30s vs 90s), half potency (500 vs 250), and more importantly rooted condition (means AST has to chanel it the whole time!) All this makes me feel if CU does not have a much stronger potency than SS, it is just ridiculous!

---

Do you even know how CU works....? I'll agree with you saying that it needs to be stronger. But if you are channeling it for the entire 18s of the ability, you are using it very wrong. Also I talked about opportunity cost more in-depth in another post in this topic. Having or not having extra aetherflow stacks is irrelevant to that part.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanFrench

Please be honest with yourself about SS's cost. There are countless threads complaining about the excessive aetherflows after losing ED. The opportunity cost of SS is almost neglectable. Compared to SS, CU has a 3 times CD( 30s vs 90s), half potency (500 vs 250), and more importantly rooted condition (means AST has to chanel it the whole time!) All this makes me feel if CU does not have a much stronger potency than SS, it is just ridiculous!

---

When I was leveling the Sacred Soil upgrade was the one new Scholar thing I was most looking forward too, because Sacred Soil hasn't been worth the Aetherflow use since we got Indom. Unless that extra mitigation is completely needed to stop someone from dying it was always better to use that stack to AE heal with Indom or patch heal with Lustrate. Once I got the upgrade I thought it was nice but it didn't blow me away like I was hoping. At this point it's merely worth using over other Aetherflow moves in certain situations.

Now, people keep saying 500 potency, it's actually 600. If you are in the bubble when it goes down it ticks once immediately to apply the Sacred Soil effect, then for 5 normal HoT ticks as long as you stay in it the whole time. If you leave the bubble you lose the effects.

This basically means it's old Sacred Soil with a built in Lustrate worth of regen healing. This means it's worth using in dungeons after the tank has pulled all the mobs they're going to, if the potency was much lower it would not be worth using over a Lustrate in that scenario. In Extreme trials so far it's worth using if the party is stacked up for a mechanic, and basically no other time. People are usually so spread out that Indom or individual Lustrates are still better uses of Aetherflow.

If I am full on Aetherflow that means I have had no need to use them for healing, I'm not just going to throw a Sacred Soil out for funsies. There's no reason to waste a resource just because you don't currently need it, people can always get stupid and need a Lustrate or two.

I do think that both Collective Unconscious and Celestial Opposition need buffs. I also think that if they shared a charge resource with Essential Dignity they would quickly find themselves left in the dirt for almost every situation even if they had 30 second individual recasts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

Do you even know how CU works....? I'll agree with you saying that it needs to be stronger. But if you are channeling it for the entire 18s of the ability, you are using it very wrong. Also I talked about opportunity cost more in-depth in another post in this topic. Having or not having extra aetherflow stacks is irrelevant to that part.

---

It's not a discussion when you use a question to avoid your own flaw part in your argument about how "expensive" SS's cost is.

But leaving that aside, let me answer what you bring up this time, SS & CU is not just about HOT heals, they also serve the function of 10% dmg reduction. When dealing a period of constant severe damages, CU's 10% reduction is not applicable at all since AST cannot afford the cost of channeling it, while SS can simple do both (mitigation and hot heal) and more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TalixRune

When I was leveling the Sacred Soil upgrade was the one new Scholar thing I was most looking forward too, because Sacred Soil hasn't been worth the Aetherflow use since we got Indom. Unless that extra mitigation is completely needed to stop someone from dying it was always better to use that stack to AE heal with Indom or patch heal with Lustrate. Once I got the upgrade I thought it was nice but it didn't blow me away like I was hoping. At this point it's merely worth using over other Aetherflow moves in certain situations.

Now, people keep saying 500 potency, it's actually 600. If you are in the bubble when it goes down it ticks once immediately to apply the Sacred Soil effect, then for 5 normal HoT ticks as long as you stay in it the whole time. If you leave the bubble you lose the effects.

This basically means it's old Sacred Soil with a built in Lustrate worth of regen healing. This means it's worth using in dungeons after the tank has pulled all the mobs they're going to, if the potency was much lower it would not be worth using over a Lustrate in that scenario. In Extreme trials so far it's worth using if the party is stacked up for a mechanic, and basically no other time. People are usually so spread out that Indom or individual Lustrates are still better uses of Aetherflow.

If I am full on Aetherflow that means I have had no need to use them for healing, I'm not just going to throw a Sacred Soil out for funsies. There's no reason to waste a resource just because you don't currently need it, people can always get stupid and need a Lustrate or two.

I do think that both Collective Unconscious and Celestial Opposition need buffs. I also think that if they shared a charge resource with Essential Dignity they would quickly find themselves left in the dirt for almost every situation even if they had 30 second individual recasts.

---

I think it is wise to focus on CU vs SS rather than bring other abilities/spells in the discussion. If AST get to use CU/CO/ES every 30sec, I don't mind to link the charge together with ED. In fact ED has 40s cool down, CU 90s, CO 120s which means AST cannot throw them as much as they want. If Lustrate is really that much needed, there won't be so many threads complaining the lost of Energy Drain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanFrench

It's not a discussion when you use a question to avoid your own flaw part in your argument about how "expensive" SS's cost is.

But leaving that aside, let me answer what you bring up this time, SS & CU is not just about HOT heals, they also serve the function of 10% dmg reduction. When dealing a period of constant severe damages, CU's 10% reduction is not applicable at all since AST cannot afford the cost of channeling it, while SS can simple do both (mitigation and hot heal) and more.

---

If the old sacred soil doesn't either save someone from dying or mitigate more than a lustrate would heal, then it's essentially worthless. I could have one extra stack, or I could have 20 extra stacks. It would not change this. Sacred soil is at least as expensive as giving up a lustrate, and at most as expensive as giving up an indom. This isn't a hard concept, and this will be the last time I explain it to address the "flaw" you think that my post has. Further, you saying "CU's 10% reduction is not applicable at all since AST cannot afford the cost of channeling it" is utterly ridiculous and shows that you don't really know how the ability actually functions. You can press CU once, and cancel it immediately. You will get the regen for 15 seconds and the damage reduction for 5 seconds. Having 5 seconds of damage reduction is more than enough time to mitigate any potentially dangerous incoming raid damage. I encourage you to try this out for yourself. You could argue that the regen on CU is way too weak and that the regen on sacred soil might be a little too strong, and I would mostly agree with you. Anything you've said beyond that though is pretty absurd, such as you saying that CU should only be compared to sacred soil. If this is the case, then what would we compare earthly star to? Indom and Assize? If that's the case, by the way that you categorizing abilities to compare, then wouldn't earthly star be far too strong at 720 healing potency? I think you can see how laughable that line of thinking is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

You can press CU once, and cancel it immediately. You will get the regen for 15 seconds and the damage reduction for 5 seconds. Having 5 seconds of damage reduction is more than enough time to mitigate any potentially dangerous incoming raid damage.

---

The damage reduction is gone the server tick after the bubble disappears. This is because the damage resistance has no duration. So you have to be absolutely perfect on hitting the right server tick to pull that off.

What Indom lacks in pure healing per cast output it makes up for in being 2x more available with no setup time required, technically Indom heals more then Earthly Star does for the value of cooldown healing 800 potency in the same 60 seconds, Earthly Star just has a bigger placement range and does minor damage. Assize makes up for the differential in doing considerably more (2x more) damage and restoring 5% MP with 25% less cooldown then Earthly Star, again with no setup time required.

When it comes to CU vs SS... with the current strength of the skills and taking into account the downsides to getting the full effectiveness of either SS would need a cooldown of 120 seconds to be balanced with CU. Preferably CU should just be buffed to take into account its extensive downsides and its long cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankHunter678

What Indom lacks in pure healing per cast output it makes up for in being 2x more available with no setup time required, technically Indom heals more then Earthly Star does for the value of cooldown healing 800 potency in the same 60 seconds, Earthly Star just has a bigger AoE and does minor damage. Assize makes up for the differential in doing considerably more (2x more) damage and restoring 5% MP with 25% less cooldown then Earthly Star, again with no setup time required.

---

Aren't you kind of refuting yourself? Indom can't have that availability if you're spending stacks on Sacred Soil, and at least one of your stacks is likely going to Excogitation, if not two because excog only has a 45 second cooldown (and an 800 potency tank heal that only triggers when needed is very valuable). It really depends on what's going on in the fight, but resource management has always been the point of SCH. You can do a lot with Aetherflow, and can change your application as needed, but you can't do it all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankHunter678

The damage reduction is gone the server tick after the bubble disappears. This is because the damage resistance has no duration. So you have to be absolutely perfect on hitting the right server tick to pull that off.

---

No....it's actually 5 seconds. Look at your combat logs. It actually says "You lose the effect of Collective Unconscious" twice when you cancel it. The first is immediate and actually refers to the bubble disappearing, and the second happens 5 seconds later when you lose the damage reduction. I could post a screenshot of my combat logs, but that would be senseless because it only has minute timestamps. The only thing I can say is that you need to go try this out for yourself. I can absolutely guarantee you that it does not operate on server ticks. Also no arguments from me about CU needing a buff, I can agree that that skill needs some serious potency buffs. What I was trying to say, though, is that you do not need to channel CU to make use of the damage reduction, like that other guy was suggesting. Five seconds is a pretty big window for the majority of things that you actually need to mitigate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankHunter678

The damage reduction is gone the server tick after the bubble disappears. This is because the damage resistance has no duration. So you have to be absolutely perfect on hitting the right server tick to pull that off..

---

The damage reduction stays for 5s even if you moved right after using the bubble.
The best you can do to see it is to test it by yourself and observe the mitigation debuff on your buff bars + checking your battle logs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

... Anything you've said beyond that though is pretty absurd, such as you saying that CU should only be compared to sacred soil. If this is the case, then what would we compare earthly star to? Indom and Assize? If that's the case, by the way that you categorizing abilities to compare, then wouldn't earthly star be far too strong at 720 healing potency? I think you can see how laughable that line of thinking is.

---

I am simply comparing CU with SS because that's the topic of this thread, and that's what you do too. If you don't think they are comparable, why we find you here in this thread?

Accusing someone is "absurd" while you yourself are comparing only the ES's 720 potency vs Indom's 400 potency without thinking about cd/range/ease to use.

First, ES has a 60s CD, indom has 30s cd, which makes the indom can be used twice while ES can only be used once in a minute. 400x2 = 800 potency, how about now?

Second, ES has a pool 8y range which means ppl has to stay close to get healed, while indom has 15y range which is pretty friendly for casters/ranged dps

Third, for ES to upgrade to 720potency, AST has to press the button once, then press it again after selecting a desired location, and wait for 10 seconds, and press it again to blow it. While indom is simply one hit.

ES has to be planned for use while indom could be used as a "o-shit" button and allow sch to wave with more flexibility given to its ease of use, short cooldown and larger range.

And again, keep bringing other spells/abilities into this CU/SS thread simply indicates even you know it yourself that SS is better in every aspect and CU needs to be fixed, thats why you look elsewhere to bring more support, and failed again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanFrench

I am simply comparing CU with SS because that's the topic of this thread, and that's what you do too. If you don't think they are comparable, why we find you here in this thread?

Accusing someone is "absurd" while you yourself are comparing only the ES's 720 potency vs Indom's 400 potency without thinking about cd/range/ease to use.

First, ES has a 60s CD, indom has 30s cd, which makes the indom can be used twice while ES can only be used once in a minute. 400x2 = 800 potency, how about now?

Second, ES has a pool 8y range which means ppl has to stay close to get healed, while indom has 15y range which is pretty friendly for casters/ranged dps

Third, for ES to upgrade to 720potency, AST has to press the button once, then press it again after selecting a desired location, and wait for 10 seconds, and press it again to blow it. While indom is simply one hit.

ES has to be planned for use while indom could be used as a "o-shit" button and allow sch to wave with more flexibility given to its ease of use, short cooldown and larger range.

And again, keep bringing other spells/abilities into this CU/SS thread simply indicates even you know it yourself that SS is better in every aspect and CU needs to be fixed, thats why you look elsewhere to bring more support, and failed again.

---

Yes comparing earthly star to indom/assize is ridiculous, I'm glad that you noticed. That was the whole point. I could just as easily make more ridiculous comparisons claiming that benefic/benefic II/horoscope/celestial intersection etc. are overpowered, but I'll refrain because then that would be the only part of this post you actually respond to. Similarly, comparing CU to sacred soil without considering the healer's entire kit is also ridiculous. Contrary to what you say, I've explained why in the part of my post that you conveniently ignored, so there is no reason for me to repeat it. I find it very telling that out of everything that I said that is relevant to this topic, you choose only to respond to the bit of hyperbole I put at the end of my post. Also I'd like you to quote me where I said that SS is not better than CU and where I said that CU doesn't need to be fixed. You said in your last line that I know it myself, right? Well I do know it, and I haven't indicated that I think otherwise anywhere else in this thread. My entire point is that sacred soil is strong, but not as strong as you're making out to be, and that CU is weak, but not as weak as you're making it out to be. You did the same thing here by exaggerating the weaknesses of earthly star while simultaneously downplaying the weakness of indom/assize. But like I said, that part was intentionally supposed to be ridiculous (and irrelevant too) and you seem to have taken it seriously, so I think I'll pass on going into why I think a lot of what you said on that topic is wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

My entire point is that sacred soil is strong, but not as strong as you're making out to be, and that CU is weak, but not as weak as you're making it out to be.

---

So if both healers only had those skills to heal and max mp / stacks/ what have you, we can agree that SS > CU in their current state no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schan

So if both healers only had those skills to heal and max mp / stacks/ what have you, we can agree that SS > CU in their current state no?

---

Yes, absolutely