Egi assault 1 and 2 is bad

I'm pretty sure egi assault 1 and 2 is what's making summoner feel bad right now. They have no place in the smn rotation.

Smn already has energy drain, fester, and painflare in between ruins. Also does not help that they sit on 2 charges THAT ALSO share a 30 sec cd with energy drain.

Where in the opener is 4 more buttons suppose to go?

We don't need 4 more buttons in between spells. I understand that we need more interaction with the pets but I feels like this is the wrong kind of interaction.

Which egi do you use?
Cause egi assault 2 is pretty good on garuda .

And you can press them, and it uses a charge, when the pet will ignore it because it hasn't (QUITE) finished an action yet. Even one frame early means a wasted charge.

I've not made up my mind yet, but this does bother me.

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Originally Posted by TheWise

We don't need 4 more buttons in between spells. I understand that we need more interaction with the pets but I feels like this is the wrong kind of interaction.

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It's not quite the wrong type of interaction, because SMN first started feeling like a true summoner/pet class in SB with Demi-Bahamut and your only interactions were GCDs, oGCDs, and Akh Morn.

The issue is that EA is redundant with Aetherflow, and they very, very heavily step on each other's toes. The opening rotation is flat out a nightmare and the double weaving doesn't feel good. EA itself throws out errors left and right and the class is busier than jobs actually designed around multitasking business, such as Bard.

It does eventually start to "slow down" but it never especially feels good because every 30 seconds you have 5 GCDs that exist to push themselves and require little thought otherwise, barely alters the rotation and is incredibly clunky to execute despite ruin 4.

In reality, choose one: ED, EA. Scrap or heavily curtail the mechanic of one, leave the other one either partially slowed down or ignored. But as it stands Summoner is too busy and the business is in bursts in a stupid fashion. Though in my opinion I'd just throw Aetherflow out entirely at this point and focus on EA, and then just work to make EA less clippy and prone to throwing errors.

And Bane should just be deleted with Bio/Miasma/Tri-Disaster just innately being aoe abilities. Technically it means they'll be aoe even at lower dungeons but, well, all other casters are aoe by 15/18, so why not summoner? And it will improve the flow of the class in aoe situations immensely. If the devs want to keep Bane as a capstone ability for Arcanist, which absolutely does not need to exist, then just make it a stance/toggle that turns Bio/Miasma/Tri-Disaster into aoe spells while active until it's gotten rid of later. Either way it's just adding to the clunky feeling of ShB SMN.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

And you can press them, and it uses a charge, when the pet will ignore it because it hasn't (QUITE) finished an action yet. Even one frame early means a wasted charge.

I've not made up my mind yet, but this does bother me.

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That's been an issue with pet AI since 2.0, it's just become more and more noticeable over time. So many cases where Bahamut just doesn't use Akh Morn because the AI prioritizes things like movement or other animations.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

It's not quite the wrong type of interaction, because SMN first started feeling like a true summoner/pet class in SB with Demi-Bahamut and your only interactions were GCDs, oGCDs, and Akh Morn.

The issue is that EA is redundant with Aetherflow, and they very, very heavily step on each other's toes. The opening rotation is flat out a nightmare and the double weaving doesn't feel good. EA itself throws out errors left and right and the class is busier than jobs actually designed around multitasking business, such as Bard.

It does eventually start to "slow down" but it never especially feels good because every 30 seconds you have 5 GCDs that exist to push themselves and require little thought otherwise, barely alters the rotation and is incredibly clunky to execute despite ruin 4.

And Bane should just be deleted with Bio/Miasma/Tri-Disaster just innately being aoe abilities. Technically it means they'll be aoe even at lower dungeons but, well, all other casters are aoe by 15/18, so why not summoner? And it will improve the flow of the class in aoe situations immensely. If the devs want to keep Bane as a capstone ability for Arcanist, which absolutely does not need to exist, then just make it a stance/toggle that turns Bio/Miasma/Tri-Disaster into aoe spells while active until it's gotten rid of later. Either way it's just adding to the clunky feeling of ShB SMN.

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I personally think they just need to throw all those egi assaults back to the pet. Main reason why we wanted more pet control was because of garuda's Catagion (i think that was how u spelled it) but even then, they took that away. So there's kind of no point to the control anymore...i mean ruin 4 stacks too.

honestly rite now i think the dots are good where they are. spreading bane in dungeons every 10 secs is nice.

my problem again is the egi assaults...im look more at my hotbar for the cd on egi assault than the fight that im doing

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Originally Posted by TheWise

my problem again is the egi assaults...im look more at my hotbar for the cd on egi assault than the fight that im doing

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This is my problem.
Hell, if they had sound effects for a charge becoming available for each skill it would really lighten my visual load.
'Cause right now I've got to pay attention to
Energy drain/siphon
Bio/miasma timers on my target
tridisaster cooldown
DWT(FBT) cooldown/DWT(FBT) timer / bahamut timer
Bane (if aoe fight)
Fester
Painflare
Devotion
Enkindle
Egi assault 1
Egi assult 2

That's just too much to really let me have fun with the actual encounter @@

I mean I'm sure I'll get a better flow as I practice, but I don't think my experience will improve that much.

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Originally Posted by TheWise

I personally think they just need to throw all those egi assaults back to the pet. Main reason why we wanted more pet control was because of garuda's Catagion (i think that was how u spelled it) but even then, they took that away. So there's kind of no point to the control anymore...i mean ruin 4 stacks too.

honestly rite now i think the dots are good where they are. spreading bane in dungeons every 10 secs is nice.

my problem again is the egi assaults...im look more at my hotbar for the cd on egi assault than the fight that im doing

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Contagion. And you're not wrong, per se, but the devs also don't want us to just AFK with the pets out, which misses the point since controlling pets never really feels good unless you can push a button and get an instant result.

Personally, if I had my way, I would do one of 2 things. You already heard the first (scrap aetherflow, keep pets). The second would be to actually scrap the egis. And what I mean by this is capture the essence of Summoner as of SB and ShB, which is almost entirely defined by "Demi-Bahamut." Take the rotations of how you summon DB and Phoenix, and find a way to work that into the low level rotation. At low levels (under 30), you summon Egis. At medium levels, I would completely redo Ifrit-egi and Garuda-egi to be a bit larger, more faithful recreations of the primals but otherwise just "Egi, but more powerful." And I would make Enkindle summon...your old carbuncles. Not one of them, but all of them, to attack as a fancy DoT basically.

And once you unlock Demi-Bahamut, replaces your other primals with DB, and Enkindle now summons Demi-Ifrit/Demi-Garuda/Demi-Titan and the carbuncles are finally left at the wayside.

FF summoners are known for constantly changing out summons as the situation changes, and replacing older, weaker summons with newer ones. You can keep the older ones relevant by summoning them in temporarily as weak summons, while replacing them with newer summons such as DB and DP.

The Egi system has never especially captured the feel of summoner, and the devs haven't figured out a way to make them feel good as a pet class because the pets themselves fail abysmally at conveying their being a pet. Obviously what I want is fundamentally a ground-up redesign of Summoner to reinforce it being a summoner based on the best examples seen so far, the Demi-Bahamut model, but at the end of the day what we have right now is a bunch of really good ideas individually that just do not mesh well together, and so I want to focus my attentions towards what reasonably can be done.

And back to bane, the reason why I want Bane removed and "merged" into other abilities such as the DoTs/Tri-Disaster directly is because Bane used to be a resourced ability. You had to spend resources to spread your DoTs around. Well, now you don't, so why have the middle man? There's an argument for control since sometimes you won't want to DoT everything, but at the end of the day if you really wanted to worry about that, you just make it a toggled ability instead of a permanent feature of DoTs. Bane is meaningless right now and exists to insist upon itself, little more.

I'll pass on automating Pets again; finally Summoner feels like an actual Pet Job and now people wanna go back?

The problem aren't even EAs specifically, its oGCD bloat in general which can be fixed as easily (and more effectively) by removing/adjusting whats left of Aetherflow (removing ED/ES and perhaps cutting back on Festers/Painflares per minute.)
Does the same thing as removing EA and keeps the flavour alive, especially since EAs are still connected to your Mechanics (Further Ruin) while Aetherflow is just... there.

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Originally Posted by TheWise

my problem again is the egi assaults...im look more at my hotbar for the cd on egi assault than the fight that im doing

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Fun fact, Egi Assaults are a lot more forgiving to use that any of your Aetherflow abilities, simply because Egi Assault can just roll over into their second charge, effectively giving you a full 30 seconds to use each one.
Energy Drain/Siphon on the other hand has to be used on Cooldown, every 30 seconds, just so you can even use the rest.
So logically, you should be blaming ED/ES over EAs. (not trying to be mean here, just disagreeing with the conclusion)

Yes Egi assault is bad,
the pet clipping is so annoying ...

At 80 its fine, there are other issues with SMN and I don't think EA is one of them

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Fun fact, Egi Assaults are a lot more forgiving to use that any of your Aetherflow abilities, simply because Egi Assault can just roll over into their second charge, effectively giving you a full 30 seconds to use each one.
Energy Drain/Siphon on the other hand has to be used on Cooldown, every 30 seconds, just so you can even use the rest.
So logically, you should be blaming ED/ES over EAs. (not trying to be mean here, just disagreeing with the conclusion)

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EA and ED/ES are 2 sides of the same coin. They both cause problems for the rotation. EA has the unfortunate distinction of clipping when used in a "normal" way, and ES/ED has the unfortunate distinction of needing to press 3 oGCDs every 30 seconds instead of EA's 2.

They both do the same thing (damage on 30s cooldown), both contribute to the massive amount of oGCD bloat the class is suffering from, and both combined make the class feel awful since if players could automate them, they would, because the damage on EA is bad, whereas ES/ED just bloats the rotation.

I would gladly completely remove either of these systems outright, I don't really care which, because they both make the class feel awful.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

I'll pass on automating Pets again; finally Summoner feels like an actual Pet Job and now people wanna go back?

The problem aren't even EAs specifically, its oGCD bloat in general which can be fixed as easily (and more effectively) by removing/adjusting whats left of Aetherflow (removing ED/ES and perhaps cutting back on Festers/Painflares per minute.)
Does the same thing as removing EA and keeps the flavour alive, especially since EAs are still connected to your Mechanics (Further Ruin) while Aetherflow is just... there.



Fun fact, Egi Assaults are a lot more forgiving to use that any of your Aetherflow abilities, simply because Egi Assault can just roll over into their second charge, effectively giving you a full 30 seconds to use each one.
Energy Drain/Siphon on the other hand has to be used on Cooldown, every 30 seconds, just so you can even use the rest.
So logically, you should be blaming ED/ES over EAs. (not trying to be mean here, just disagreeing with the conclusion)

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Except it DOESN'T feel like a pet class, not entire sure what you're on. They feel like a normal job that has an auto-DoT with a unique graphic and then you control everything else. With Enkindle it was fine, but having the WHOLE pet function that way, its not. But eh, people like you never wanted a pet class anyway, you just wanted something you had 100% control over instead of having a combat ally that you interacted with.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

EA and ED/ES are 2 sides of the same coin. They both cause problems for the rotation. EA has the unfortunate distinction of clipping when used in a "normal" way, and ES/ED has the unfortunate distinction of needing to press 3 oGCDs every 30 seconds instead of EA's 2.

They both do the same thing (damage on 30s cooldown), both contribute to the massive amount of oGCD bloat the class is suffering from, and both combined make the class feel awful since if players could automate them, they would, because the damage on EA is bad, whereas ES/ED just bloats the rotation.

I would gladly completely remove either of these systems outright, I don't really care which, because they both make the class feel awful.

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Good, so we're effectively on the same page. I'd just prefer to get rid of ED/ES, purely from a flavour/class identity standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Except it DOESN'T feel like a pet class, not entire sure what you're on. They feel like a normal job that has an auto-DoT with a unique graphic and then you control everything else. With Enkindle it was fine, but having the WHOLE pet function that way, its not. But eh, people like you never wanted a pet class anyway, you just wanted something you had 100% control over instead of having a combat ally that you interacted with.

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Oh, then explain how a pet class plays?