A Message For Yoshi-P

Yoshida-san,

Tonight, for the first time ever in a Final Fantasy online game, I had absolutely no fun—no fun at all—playing as a White Mage. I don’t understand what your plan was for healers in Shadowbringers, but I’m bitterly disappointed with all the changes that you’ve made for that role. I am now seriously considering cancelling my account (which has been active since version 1.0). I was already disappointed when you decided to remove Stoneskin and nerf Fluid Aura, but I think you completely lost me with the White Mage changes in Shadowbringers. Hopefully, you’ll make some adjustments soon, otherwise, good luck managing queues without healers...

Thank you,
Nelly Arcane, WHM main in FFXIV (Gilgamesh)
Valesken, WHM main in FFXI (Quetzalcoatl)

Weird cuz I'm at level 74 in the msq, playing as WHM, and I'm having loads of fun :p

I actually really like the lily heal, instacast but also still part of your Global Cooldown. The fights seem designed (so far) to require more healing, though I'm gonna hold off on saying that for sure until we're a few months into the expansion. But yeah so far WHM is looking great.

It's AST that needs attention. Please let us have seals when we throw cards as soon as the tank pulls. Why this isn't already in the game is beyond me. Haven't tried SCH yet.

Yeah, from what I’ve seen so far, WHM looks in a better state than other healers, but still... Boring as heal compared to what it used to be... Just look at the number of abilities that we have now (including Fluid Aura & Repose). Anyway, good for you if you're enjoying.

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Originally Posted by Valesken

Yeah, from what I’ve seen so far, WHM looks in a better state than other healers, but still... Boring as heal compared to what it used to be... Just look at the number of abilities that we have now (including Fluid Aura & Repose). Anyway, good for you if you're enjoying.

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I mean what did we really lose? Aero III? You could count Protect, Largesse, and Cleric Stance, but since they either have a long cooldown or literally have a 30min effect timer, it doesn't feel like we're losing much in that regard.

I’m sorry, but with each expansion WHM is loosing some abilities... I don’t see the point, shouldn’t we get more? Just check other jobs’ Hotbars & Rotation. And yeah, I miss Aero III big time, Stoneskin I & II, Protect and Cleric Stance, Eye for an Eye, I’d get Shell and Haste while we’re at it. And Fluid Aura used to be useful too (CC + free DPS since off cooldown). Maybe I got too much buttons on my mouse or I’m used to have no downtime...

I would understand your disappointment better if you had a problem with anything but White Mage. It plays near identical to how it did before. We did lose Aero 3 but that doesn't change the way we play unlike SCH losing ED for example. Fluid Aura and Stoneskin has been gone for 2 years so I don't know why it's a knock on ShB White Mage.

Still, old problems with WHM still persist and it's strengths have stayed. If you didn't like SB WHM the current one won't change your mind.

You’re right, I have a problem with the direction they went with all healers in Shadowbringers, but I just tried WHM today. All 3 healers jobs were fine in SB if you ask me (individually + good synergy between all three). Why remove Aero III anyway, you just use it if you want to... plus it’s not like I’ll leave a party member die to throw in a quick DoT...

It feels almost exactly the same.
Instead of casting my two dots I cast one dot.
Instead of casting my aoe I cast my other AOE.
Then I cast broil until my dot is done cooking and I put another dot in the oven.

The biggest adjustment is that you need to use aetherflow to cast heals so you have more juice for damage.

It's exactly as boring as it was before.

I like how you can remove a third of the buttons we need to press for most of our playtime and the white knights say, "it's exactly the same!"

While we're at it, let's just remove DOTs. It feels exactly the same - just one less button. Just one less button. Every expansion it's just one less button. (Except for the new buttons that you don't ever need to press.)

And no, it does not feel the same. Having to manage two DOTs on separate timers, one with a cast time and one without, is not the same as managing one instant DOT of a longer duration. And then there was Cleric Stance, and lining it up with other raid buffs. It wasn't much, but it was something we could do to be try-hards when the content was not hard.

For a lot of us, White Mage was already on the cusp of being too boring. We said as much when SB came out, and for two years we've been shushed and told to wait for the next expansion, hoping against hope that they'd do something to make up for the disasters of SB-launch WHM and SCH. Here we are. With ShB, they gave both Jobs a good, hard shove off the cliff.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I like how you can remove a third of the buttons we need to press for most of our playtime and the white knights say, "it's exactly the same!"

While we're at it, let's just remove DOTs. It feels exactly the same - just one less button. Just one less button. Every expansion it's just one less button. (Except for the new buttons that you don't ever need to press.)

And no, it does not feel the same. Having to manage two DOTs on separate timers, one with a cast time and one without, is not the same as managing one instant DOT of a longer duration. And then there was Cleric Stance, and lining it up with other raid buffs. It wasn't much, but it was something we could do to be try-hards when the content was not hard.

For a lot of us, White Mage was already on the cusp of being too boring. We said as much when SB came out, and for two years we've been shushed and told to wait for the next expansion, hoping against hope that they'd do something to make up for the disasters of SB-launch WHM and SCH. Here we are. With ShB, they gave both Jobs a good, hard shove off the cliff.

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I'm not surprised you're using "White Knight" as an insult. Scholar has always been the low effort class, so it's not shocking that you're trying to defend it with a low-effort insult.

I don't disagree with your logic as to why healers are boring, but I disagree that this expansion is what made healers boring to DPS; Healers have ALWAYS been boring to DPS. Scholar, more than any other healer, is full of redundant abilities that do near identical things to each other, and it has been amusingly stupid to watch this community try to defend how two buttons with the exact same functionality and near identical duration is somehow more mentally engaging than one button with the exact same functionality and near identical duration.

The biggest adjustment is that Aetherflow can't be used for crappy DPS moves, and you must spend them on healing instead, which is what I assume Scholar is really upset about since they're used to just smashing their forehead on the 1 key and then hitting 2 and 3 every 25ish seconds to justify letting their co-healer and fairy do all the work because they're busy with their complex DPS rotation of three (SOMETIMES FOUR) buttons.

Scholar/Healers are exactly as boring as they always have been and this expansion didn't change that. If nothing else I hope the incessant whining convinces Yoshi-P that healers want a DPS rotation that is slightly more complex than "apply dot(s), shoot magic, repeat"

Since we're on the subject, a pbAOE that applies its full damage immediately is vastly superior to an AOE dot in terms of DPS, and is generally more engaging as well. You have to contend with enemy attacks you normally wouldn't interact with by moving and then staying in melee range, and you're always doing all of your damage for the trash pull instead of losing some percentage of it because the DPS wiped out the group before your piddly DoT could apply its full strength. Nobody is willing to mention this in the sea of "Se ruined mah job!", but it's definitely more interesting and useful than what we had previously.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

I mean what did we really lose? Aero III? You could count Protect, Largesse, and Cleric Stance, but since they either have a long cooldown or literally have a 30min effect timer, it doesn't feel like we're losing much in that regard.

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How about MP? I mean with all the changes they've made they've basically nuked our mana regeneration. Supposedly piety now affects it, but even with fully stacked piety materia on my gear it was a negligible change. It's basically worthless. Not only did they prevent us raising our maximum MP (which, pre-expansion allowed me to spam Cure spells more times than I can currently AND with a substantially large MP refresh by default), but they slashed Lucid Dreaming from 80 to 50 potency and eliminated every external refresh skill.

Let's be honest here, it's not just about the skills we've lost. We lost a lot.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

I like how you can remove a third of the buttons we need to press for most of our playtime and the white knights say, "it's exactly the same!"

While we're at it, let's just remove DOTs. It feels exactly the same - just one less button. Just one less button. Every expansion it's just one less button. (Except for the new buttons that you don't ever need to press.)

And no, it does not feel the same. Having to manage two DOTs on separate timers, one with a cast time and one without, is not the same as managing one instant DOT of a longer duration. And then there was Cleric Stance, and lining it up with other raid buffs. It wasn't much, but it was something we could do to be try-hards when the content was not hard.

For a lot of us, White Mage was already on the cusp of being too boring. We said as much when SB came out, and for two years we've been shushed and told to wait for the next expansion, hoping against hope that they'd do something to make up for the disasters of SB-launch WHM and SCH. Here we are. With ShB, they gave both Jobs a good, hard shove off the cliff.

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This. I can't just understand it anymore. They just killed SCH all in all right? It feels like cutting the fairy away from SCH and even the DPS kit which was more complex. Now SCH do not have anything to do anymore.

Also @Warkupo: Let's be honest please. Having to manage 3 DoTs instead of 1 is just different. You wouldn't say that to a DPS or Tank rotation because the way you are arguing is just not good. In your way of thinking every job and every class you have ever played and ever will play is boring because it is "just button smashing". Healing and controlling DPS(especially DoTs) is complex. It needs time to get used to it. Why else was SCH the hardest job? Why else was AST and SCH harder than WHM? It was not only because of Cards+Fairy, it was because of the DPS management of SCH. I am playing over 15 years and my brother is playing over 16years(healer) and he is saying that this SCH is just way to easy to play and boring and unengaging as hell. SCH feels unfinished, clunky and the identity+core is smashed away.

SE really needs to undo some changes and reverse some prunes. SCH really needs the fairy management and DPS kits back otherwise a lot of SCHs will quit and I am pretty sure of it. When we hit lvl 80 and get proper gear it will be even more boring, let's all just be honest. Hoping for a horrible Tank and horrible DPS to heal sometimes is the same as it was in SB but in SB you had a rotation, you had something to do. Now there is nothing but disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

How about MP? I mean with all the changes they've made they've basically nuked our mana regeneration. Supposedly piety now affects it, but even with fully stacked piety materia on my gear it was a negligible change. It's basically worthless. Not only did they prevent us raising our maximum MP (which, pre-expansion allowed me to spam Cure spells more times than I can currently AND with a substantially large MP refresh by default), but they slashed Lucid Dreaming from 80 to 50 potency and eliminated every external refresh skill.

Let's be honest here, it's not just about the skills we've lost. We lost a lot.

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How are you running out of MP as a White Mage in anything, current or lower leveled? I'm really curious how you're managing this.

My MP doesn't dip below 20%, even when I'm deliberately overusing it. Between Lucid, Assize, and Thin Air you shouldn't run into too many issues at all.

SCH and AST on the other hand might be running into MP issues. I really do not know for sure on them.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

but they slashed Lucid Dreaming from 80 to 50 potency and eliminated every external refresh skill.

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The potency might have decreased but so did the cooldown, 120s to 60secs now means you'll be recovering MP much more often. Not sure on the Piety values yet, but once we know exactly a good number then that could also benefit healer recovery as well.

I'll return to my previous comparison from another thread. If they did to a tank, like PLD what they did to healers then this is what their tool kit would look like:

- Keep all of the defensive cooldowns, as a tank's main job is to defend. Keep tank stance because their job is also to keep emnity
- Keep Fast Blade (Based on using Ruin/Stone/Malefic tiers)
- Keep Total Eclipse (Based on using Art of War/Holy/Gravity)
- Keep Goring Blade (Based on using Bio/Aero/Combust tiers)
- Keep 1 other DPS ability, either Circle of Scorn or Riot Blade (based on Ruin II/Assize/Earthly Star)
- Remove everything else

In theory, you don't need anything more on a Paladin for them to fulfill their role, but it'd be boring to play like that.

Funnily back in 2.0 Paladin was pretty bare bones in how it played and was not that far from this, though they still got more. And people said they found Paladin boring (until very late levels). SE has changed that and made it a much more interesting job to play. Then in Stormblood, they made it play really well. I have a PLD to 70 on an alt and love what they ended up doing.

Astrologian, despite any issues people have with how the cards have changed, they still get something to do in their downtime. Though I don't know how AST mains feel about how it is to play.

Scholar and White Mage on the other hand don't. For Scholar it was quite a sudden change, White Mages have been complaining about their job changes for ages, it has been more gradual. In 2.0 the Scholar & White Mage relationship worked really well, the jobs were fun to play with the content we had and were well balanced IMO, as a SCH I actually prefer how SCH played back then (I'd have liked an evolution on the elements I enjoyed). However, it doesn't feel that the jobs have evolved well from there. Scholar kinda avoided some of these issues in the sense they were OP and had a little more do with the downtime.

I think if they gave the healers more to do in their downtime, I think people would be complaining less. Whilst personally I'd have liked Scholar to be a good evolution of how I played it in 2.0, even without that, I don't want it to be boring.

If they don't want us to DPS too much, then give us something else. Scholars could debuff, that'd help with damage mitigation (SCH 2.0 did this, but integrated into their DPS moves, the debuffs weren't great, but better versions could be reimplemented). White Mage could get a mix of buffs & debuffs, because there's ones they could make fit. Maybe their own versions of job mechanics like AST has with cards, BRD has with songs and DNC with dances. After all, healers provide support.

Even if come level 80 the content hits us in the face and eliminates healer downtime (which I highly doubt will) then there's a whole plethora of content out there where they still have healer downtime.

I haven't had any issues with WHM yet. I don't get what the complaints are about in terms of healer dps. It's always been using the same few skills over and over. People just like to complain about things.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

I haven't had any issues with WHM yet. I don't get what the complaints are about in terms of healer dps. It's always been using the same few skills over and over. People just like to complain about things.

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There's no need to lie. You know full well that Scholar did not have a simple DPS kit before this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Alathon

There's no need to lie. You know full well that Scholar did not have a simple DPS kit before this expansion.

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Last time I played SCH I did a leveling roulette and got a high level dungeon when I didn't even know how to play SCH since I leveled SMN instead and decided to try SCH for the heck of it. Had no idea what I was doing but caught on really fast due to being a WHM main. I really didn't do much for dps since there wasn't much there which is why it was so easy for me to pick up. When people claim that pressing 1 2 3 is SO much different than pressing 1 1 1 to do the exact same thing, I know not to listen to certain complaints.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Last time I played SCH I did a leveling roulette and got a high level dungeon when I didn't even know how to play SCH since I leveled SMN instead and decided to try SCH for the heck of it. Had no idea what I was doing but caught on really fast due to being a WHM main. I really didn't do much for dps since there wasn't much there which is why it was so easy for me to pick up. When people claim that pressing 1 2 3 is SO much different than pressing 1 1 1 to do the exact same thing, I know not to listen to certain complaints.

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Let me put it this way - do you think SE should consolidate all combos for DPS and tanks into one button, just like in PVP? Instead of having multiple buttons that you press in the same order every time. Consolidate DRG's rotation into one or two buttons that you can press to activate each step of the combo.

Well Yoshi has been asked this question before, and he has said no. Which means that even he thinks that pressing 123 is more complicated than pressing 111.

It’s weaving more than one spell between heals then spamming one or two once the DoT’s are up. It’s doing this whilst mechanics are happening, just repeating the same single spell over and over is less interesting than a handful.

But in fairness I am for more complexity with SCH, so maybe don’t just make it a simple DPS rotation.

But really isn’t all video gaming is? Just pressing a sequence of buttons?

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Last time I played SCH I did a leveling roulette and got a high level dungeon when I didn't even know how to play SCH since I leveled SMN instead and decided to try SCH for the heck of it. Had no idea what I was doing but caught on really fast due to being a WHM main. I really didn't do much for dps since there wasn't much there which is why it was so easy for me to pick up. When people claim that pressing 1 2 3 is SO much different than pressing 1 1 1 to do the exact same thing, I know not to listen to certain complaints.

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Girl, then you didn’t play Scholar.

I'm enjoying WHM a lot. Frankly I dont see what all the complaining about it is regarding. Afflatus Solace has replaced cure 1 and 2 for me, unless things are really going bad for the tank.
I will say that I miss Aero 3 though.

I really don't see the difference between current whm and SB whm... Like, we lost aero3, okay I suppose (beside the cool visual this wasn't the selling point for me when plying...)
I also don't see how people can still mourn stones kin. (manu also seem to forget the fact that we got a stone skin ogcd on a 30s for SB that got improved for ShB)

WHM plays exactly the seem same

I would understand disappointment of whm not changing much (afflatus spells are simply instant medica/cure so nothing properly new)
But I don't see how how the current whm can feel bland compared to SB one, beside missing spamming more dots.

Regarding the comment of loosing skills, I don't see how largesse and cleric stance can be missed.
Like for all I care they had a minor impact at best even in ult or last savage.

I can't recall being happy about having largesse up

im enjoying summoner so far, its very fun and its have better rotation than Stormblood. the way im feeling he game its like it have minor changes, nothing that make impossible to play with job, to me, the game became better, and i give all reaason to yoshi wen he told to players play the game first, have the experience before any futher changes. All i have seen in forum its complain about something that some didnt gave a time to feel hows game now.

The game is better!! I feel like many dont get out of confort zone, and try learn skills again. Its not impossible to adapt, and once you learn how it works you will have fun with it.

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Originally Posted by Sovasin

Let me put it this way - do you think SE should consolidate all combos for DPS and tanks into one button, just like in PVP? Instead of having multiple buttons that you press in the same order every time.

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if all kombos be in same button the game will feel like celphone game.

While i admit it does play very similar the difference is quite noticeable for WHM mains. I loved HW WHM even if it sucked. I liked SB WHM even if it still sucked. TBH i was iffy about new WHM. My abilities taking longer to cast(likely a change to base stats) and i miss my usual rotation but at the same time it feels more like a healer now than a DPS that can heal the odd time it needs it since its HoTs kept up with a lot of the damage alone. While the loss of Largesse is sad its not needed and tbh if it still existed it would make their last skill nothing special in their kit. Repose was useful in SITUATIONS that honestly rarely happened/useless skill crowding the bars. Lucid dreaming needs to be spammed now cause of the new mana cap and how much costs are compared to it but thats just something else to manage which is fun since before managing mana on WHM wasnt really a thing cause of the amount of skills they had that helped with mana problems. After some play time and adjusting i think its fun and thank god for the lack of protect that spell was useless in the first place XD.
To address your thing about "they keep taking skills away shouldn't they be adding more?" (Sorry if its already been brought up) but i feel like if anything its a good thing they are removing skills because we already have a ton more than needed as is so if they didn't downsize each patch we wouldn't have enough hotbars to fit all the Spells/Skills/Abilities.

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Originally Posted by Valesken

Yoshida-san,

Tonight, for the first time ever in a Final Fantasy online game, I had absolutely no fun—no fun at all—playing as a White Mage. I don’t understand what your plan was for healers in Shadowbringers, but I’m bitterly disappointed with all the changes that you’ve made for that role. I am now seriously considering cancelling my account (which has been active since version 1.0). I was already disappointed when you decided to remove Stoneskin and nerf Fluid Aura, but I think you completely lost me with the White Mage changes in Shadowbringers. Hopefully, you’ll make some adjustments soon, otherwise, good luck managing queues without healers...

Thank you,
Nelly Arcane, WHM main in FFXIV (Gilgamesh)
Valesken, WHM main in FFXI (Quetzalcoatl)

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I felt exactly the same after years of playing this game since 2.0. Doing some dungeon with AST and I was feeling actual pain. I wanted to finish and log out.

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Originally Posted by Valesken

Yoshida-san,

Tonight, for the first time ever in a Final Fantasy online game, I had absolutely no fun—no fun at all—playing as a White Mage. I don’t understand what your plan was for healers in Shadowbringers, but I’m bitterly disappointed with all the changes that you’ve made for that role. I am now seriously considering cancelling my account (which has been active since version 1.0). I was already disappointed when you decided to remove Stoneskin and nerf Fluid Aura, but I think you completely lost me with the White Mage changes in Shadowbringers. Hopefully, you’ll make some adjustments soon, otherwise, good luck managing queues without healers...

Thank you,
Nelly Arcane, WHM main in FFXIV (Gilgamesh)
Valesken, WHM main in FFXI (Quetzalcoatl)

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Do you think you'd feel the same way at level 80 once you've obtained all the new spells? I just skimmed them, but it looks like those might add gameplay that will make the class funner.

probably not.
what will you gain ? a instant-medica usable every 30s, a instant aoe-dps that you can use once every 90 seconds and a largess with 10% damage reduction.

we waited 2 years for that, and it costed us cleric stance, largesse, aero 3, eye for a eye and protec.

“Good luck managing ques without healers”

*Laughs in Trust System”

In all seriousness, to each their own, but most people I’ve talked to are enjoying the new update. I am. Healing is healing. As long as they don’t take away my ability to heal, I’m happy.

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Originally Posted by LeonTrifang

*Laughs in Trust System”

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And then you realize that most of the Duty Roulettes show "healer in need" and have queue times upwards of 15 minutes depending on the time of day.

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In all seriousness, to each their own, but most people I’ve talked to are enjoying the new update. I am. Healing is healing. As long as they don’t take away my ability to heal, I’m happy.

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Meanwhile, a few of my friends played healers regularly: they're enjoying the expansion, but it's mostly that they're enjoying finally getting out of Jape-an and into a fantasy landscape, and the story that's being presented to them. When they healed, they didn't enjoy the flow of gameplay and instead tried to focus on the quests and story until they inevitably got sick of it and changed to a DPS or Tank class. Although I continue to play AST (mostly because I love the aesthetic, but also out of convenience for my group of friends), I do fall in that sentiment. I like this expansion, it's just that my experience playing as an AST hasn't often felt much like "playing" so far, and that's not a good thing.

I've enjoyed the content-- namely dungeons and trials-- in Shadowbringers so far on WHM. I have loathed all the questing, all the solo duties, and pretty much everything in between. The story was... okay. Extremely predictable and I was able to pretty much see a lot of things coming when they were first hinted at. WHM as a job is kind of dull and bland though. All the healers seem that way. I look at dancer and wonder-- damn, why can't I have fun like that? Why can't I play a class that feels fun. I tried dancer. It's as fun as it looks.

I don't really want to play a boring, simple, watered down job in fun fights. I want to play a fun, engaging job while participating in fun fights. Is that really too much to ask? They have boiled all the healers down to plain white bread with maybe a tiny corner of butter/peanut butter or jam depending on which flavor you like to go towards and after all this time, after not having anything just to throw healers a "thanks for playing a healer" for 2 expansions now, we get the most bland and callously indifferent changes to date. While I am getting tomestones on the healer, and I'm gearing up the healer, I'm leveling my dancer and am having a lot of fun on it. Once I get it to 80.... I may just hang up the cane so I can play something that's actually fun. And, on top of that, no more of this super burdening stress Yoshi-P and the team seem to think I'm being crushed by to worry about! Yay! Healers are stressful to play so let's make them boring to play and not even throw them a bone for 2 expansions for shouldering all this stress and burden that we perceive them to have! #WTFaretheythinking

Basically what MintnHoney said.
I enjoy the expansion. In terms of the main story I think this has been the best in years. I like the zone designs, I like the music, I like the dungeon designs and encounter. But when it comes to healing. The activity that I have enjoyed the most since 2.0.... Well I am not enjoying that anymore. Every time the next main story quest requires me to reach the next level I get annoyed because it means I have to go back to the most boring aspect for me at the moment. As it stands right now I'll finish the main story and then maybe bring dancer to 80 because I enjoy the support aspect of the job but after that I'll stop playing and wait to see if there will be any changes to what they have done to sch and ast. (I lack experience on whm to really talk about them)