PLD no flash?

So not sure if anyone else noticed, but they removed Flash from PLD. Anyone else thinks this is going to be interesting? Maybe I overused flash, but it was kind of a go-to when pulling trains.

Total Eclipse/Prominence is intended to take its place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frost_Trunks

So not sure if anyone else noticed, but they removed Flash from PLD. Anyone else thinks this is going to be interesting? Maybe I overused flash, but it was kind of a go-to when pulling trains.

---

New Tank system has a passive in place that basically acts like a Tank stance without the damage decrease -- granting you damage reduction and hp. Along with this, your old defensive stance acts an enmity generation boost. Due to this, you end up drawing additional enmity on all attacks.

So as Daralii was saying, Total Eclipse/Prominence combo and Circle of Scorn will be your go to for AoE aggro.

At lower levels you will use iron wil (shield oath replacement at level 10) l then total eclipse for aggro. Iron will makes all your weapon skills generate enmity and doesnr have any dmg penalty.

fair enough. thanks!

I hope they actually *gave* it increased aggro, because it felt pitifully underpowered compared with flash.

Yes. A damage AoE felt weaker than a no-damage AoE taunt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I hope they actually *gave* it increased aggro, because it felt pitifully underpowered compared with flash.

Yes. A damage AoE felt weaker than a no-damage AoE taunt.

---

It felt weak because didn't have the "increases enmity" effect of Overpower and Unleash.
With the new tank stances, this effect is now added to all of your skills

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big-Isaac

It felt weak because didn't have the "increases enmity" effect of Overpower and Unleash.
With the new tank stances, this effect is now added to all of your skills

---

I hate to break the news to you, but this sounds exactly like Shield Oath but without the damage reduction. Lest you wonder, Shield Oath increased enmity also. Another thing that people haven't considered is when you simply DO NOT WANT to damage a particular mob. I can think of several examples throughout the game.

1. Boss mechanics where killing certain enemies is detrimental (eg. Bombs versus the slime in Copperbell Mines)
2. Boss fights where certain enemies need to die in a certain order.
3. Boss fights where certain enemies need to die in a certain place.

If we're always going to have to damage mobs to keep aggro, it only increases the risk of failing one or more of these mechanics. Yes, we have Provoke, but the recast time in addition to its single target nature make it significantly less useful in these situations.

total eclipse was just weak in general
Looks,Sound and no effect

Im glad flash is gone though and AOE has been revised for every job now

I kinda liked the blind in flash, it was like a little damage reduction cd for big pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samsta

I kinda liked the blind in flash, it was like a little damage reduction cd for big pulls.

---

I think you were the only one, its practically useless.

the only time ive ever found flash useful

was in HW when it helped warrior not drain TP or break combos for aggro
that's it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I think you were the only one, its practically useless.

---

Agreed, but I still stress that having an aggro skill that deals no damage is beneficial for a number of mechanics currently in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I think you were the only one, its practically useless.

---

I disagree, I liked it as well and would prefer it over what we have now.

PLD was the only tank with a no-damage aggro skill tho, weren't they? Seemed a bit odd-man-out. And while an argument could be made that all tanks could have such a skill, I think I'd counter-argue that the situations where those would be necessary (as you listed) are a bit niche. And, frankly, just because now you have to do damage to aggro doesn't mean any of those situations can't still be met. Because they always have been, with other tanks, lacking the no-damage skill. These aggro skills aren't insta-kill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

I hate to break the news to you, but this sounds exactly like Shield Oath but without the damage reduction. Lest you wonder, Shield Oath increased enmity also.

---

Except for the part in the wording of the tank stances where it says "significantly increases enmity generation"
That makes it sound like the enmity bonus is going to be larger than from the old tank stances.
Plus, you're not going to ONLY spam Total Eclipse any more - you have the 2-part AoE combo now, which has a higher total potency and thus higher enmity generation.

Quote:

---

Another thing that people haven't considered is when you simply DO NOT WANT to damage a particular mob. I can think of several examples throughout the game.

1. Boss mechanics where killing certain enemies is detrimental (eg. Bombs versus the slime in Copperbell Mines)
2. Boss fights where certain enemies need to die in a certain order.
3. Boss fights where certain enemies need to die in a certain place.

If we're always going to have to damage mobs to keep aggro, it only increases the risk of failing one or more of these mechanics. Yes, we have Provoke, but the recast time in addition to its single target nature make it significantly less useful in these situations.

---

That's about as fringe as it gets. If you end up wiping because of the PLD's AoE damage, your group's got problems to work out that have nothing to do with job design.
Not to mention that DRK and WAR had no way to grab AoE threat without doing damage in SB (outside of Ultimatum with its ludicrously long CD) and I don't recall that causing issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big-Isaac

Except for the part in the wording of the tank stances where it says "significantly increases enmity generation"
That makes it sound like the enmity bonus is going to be larger than from the old tank stances.
Plus, you're not going to ONLY spam Total Eclipse any more - you have the 2-part AoE combo now, which has a higher total potency and thus higher enmity generation.


That's about as fringe as it gets. If you end up wiping because of the PLD's AoE damage, your group's got problems to work out that have nothing to do with job design.
Not to mention that DRK and WAR had no way to grab AoE threat without doing damage in SB (outside of Ultimatum with its ludicrously long CD) and I don't recall that causing issues.

---

From what people have played and what we've been told, enmity is a non-issue if you have the tank stance on.

Why should all tanks be the same? Why should all tanks have gap closer, or the same aoe, or the same cooldowns?
Every class should be different and have their own pros and cons. Giving the same things to everyone is lazy and bad designed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivellior

Why should all tanks be the same? Why should all tanks have gap closer, or the same aoe, or the same cooldowns?
Every class should be different and have their own pros and cons. Giving the same things to everyone is lazy and bad designed.

---

We can have diversity when we stop having Savage and Ultimate content.

As long as there exists content where people can go over it with a fine-toothed comb to pick apart every flaw and underperformance, diversity is only going to make trouble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

We can have diversity when we stop having Savage and Ultimate content.

As long as there exists content where people can go over it with a fine-toothed comb to pick apart every flaw and underperformance, diversity is only going to make trouble.

---

This is an ever revolving problem around MMOs, but the fact is that people who do what you say are a very, very little minority and we should not cater to them too much. As long as every content can be cleared with any comp it's fine, some guy only accepting the best comp because it deals 1% more damage should not be the reason for too much streamlining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

We can have diversity when we stop having Savage and Ultimate content.

---

For me, that's irrelevant. Any party composition can do any content. If you want to play optimally, just group with people with the same mindset in a premade.
There are lots of people that play jobs that they like, and do those content in a completely non-competitive way and, thus, don't give a damn about being "meta".

Also, removing any sense of identity will just make jobs feel more bland for the extreme majority that don't even set foot in Savage or Ultimate.

That's why I think the game could support job customization. If I want to play seriously, I will dedicate one job to be my raid job, that will most likely follow an optimal build. And for my other jobs, I'll be creative so that they still feel fun to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

We can have diversity when we stop having Savage and Ultimate content.

As long as there exists content where people can go over it with a fine-toothed comb to pick apart every flaw and underperformance, diversity is only going to make trouble.

---

I'll be blunt, that isn't an answer. Whether a tank is usefull or not in raids doesn't depend on the tank kit, it depends on the encounter. For example PLD sucked in Heavensward because all the damage was magical (and shields only blocked physical dmg at the time).
What do you think would have happened if they added bosses that you needed physical damage reduction instead of magical? Suddenly PLD would be OP and DRK would suck.
The problem is not the tank kits, it never was. The problem is raid design. They have 3x4 = 12 bosses on savage. Surely they can adjust some of those bosses to fit a specific niche.
If for example PLD is the physical tank and DRK is the magical tank, they could have bosses that cater to physical or magical damage. Problem solved.
The ONLY issue that this could cause is that it could makepeople do to switch classes when fighting bosses (for example PLD in the first boss, DRK on the second). But that is really a problem for those who are after world/server first. Not to mention that you share all gear besides the weapon...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ivellior

If for example PLD is the physical tank and DRK is the magical tank, they could have bosses that cater to physical or magical damage. Problem solved.

---

You could have both that switch between magical and physical phase so that no tank would be optimal for the whole fight. Or, akin to the missing number in FFVII, a boss that could be locked into a specific type of damage depending how/when you go below a specific threshold, so that could adapt your strategy depending on the tank you have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You could have both that switch between magical and physical phase so that no tank would be optimal for the whole fight. Or, akin to the missing number in FFVII, a boss that could be locked into a specific type of damage depending how/when you go below a specific threshold, so that could adapt your strategy depending on the tank you have.

---

They can do a lot of things if they want to. Heck even having to sit out on raid set (like delta) and then being good on the second (alpha) could be an acceptable solution. They fact is, for whatever reason, they don't want to do it. Hence they picked the easy way to make all tanks the same, which in my oppinion is the worst thing they could do for the game.

So paladin don't have blind anymore ?

So the new tank stance aggro mod (for PLD/WAR at least) is 10x.
Shield Lob and Tomahawk seem to have a 7x hate mod on top of that.
So in effect Shield Lob (hate wise) is equal to a 840 potency attack, which at this point (as I cant find any other attacks with the Increased Enmity effect on tanks besides the ranged pull) is the strongest single target hate builder.

I miss Flash as well, and I guess I'm also in the minority in that I used it all the time in dungeons. I know having a high-enmity AoE damage skill replaces Flash but it's just not the same. To me Flash, and shield bash actually, have always been what I most associated with Paladin; the idea of focusing my aether to blind my enemies was a cool idea.

I personally would have preferred they remove the enmity bonus and add damage to Flash and get rid of Total Eclipse. Oh well.

I'm a bit against in losing flash, without Flash it makes me feel less efficient as a tank.
Usually one flash was all I needed to do pull one group to another. Like if I'm going to do large pulls, I can't do Total Eclipse once, one of them will lose aggro on the way and attack other party member as well. So can't do it without Prominence which makes it a bit troublesome.
Sure it's good that enmity actions are also dealing damage, but I don't find it easier..

After running lv71 dungeon I can say that even with tank stance Total Eclipse still doesn't gain enough aggro compare to Flash and the animation is sluggish. I really miss Flash.
And with a lot of damage mitigation buff gone, I feel more squishy than ever.

I don't miss flash at all. the new Total Eclipse and Prominence is the bomb. along with Holy Circle, I can't lose hate if unless I drop tank stance and shirk my healer which is fun when your running with friends to watch them run around the room wondering what happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I think you were the only one, its practically useless.

---

Except when Flashing a boss right before he does a tankbuster was huge for Paladin mitigation.

But only in 2.0 against bosses like Titan, which that worked against.

Since then Blind was mostly just a good thing for trash train pulling during DF runs. Coupled with Paladin's smorgasbord of mitigation tools (cooldowns, shield blocking, etc) Flash was pretty tight.

Be interesting to see how huge trash pulls go goes now that they nerfed passive mitigation from blocking and parrying.