Provoke now grants additional aggro.

They took long enough.

With shirk and new provoke now, there is no need to the off tank leave the tank stance anymore.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

They took long enough.

With shirk and new provoke now, there is no need to the off tank leave the tank stance anymore.

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There's no point for them to BE in it, either, because all it boosts is threat.

There's no defensive bonus, no skills tied behind it... if the offtank jumps into tank stance, then they're achieving nothing if they're intelligent, and being a pest if they're an idiot.

While this is definitely very welcome, I do wonder if that just means it'll come down to whoever can dps higher or provide the higher burst to keep aggro. More than likely still gonna need the swaps to turn off their stance and etc just to be safe.

Don't worry, you'll still get every tank in the duty fighting for aggro no matter who pulled or even said they'd MT. People never want to be MT until someone else is. Then they spend more time fighting each other (and no one getting adds) than the actual fight itself.

24 man is gonna be hell with tank jugglers

I was never really bothered with Provoke not adding enmity, but I have to admit this will reduce the number of issues when new players spam Provoke because they often assume it's our only, or main, aggro tool. I've lost count of how many Paladins pull using this skill. The loss of enmity combos on the other hand, that kind of stings. Unless the enmity generation from Iron Will is so overpowered that nothing short of divine intervention will pull enemies away, I don't see how this benefits us at all. If Iron Will *is* that powerful, it only raises further balance concerns, because it means that Tanks don't even have to put in any real effort.

Enmity combos allowed us to balance out which enemies we needed more aggro on, so we can focus on landing our big enmity skills, like Halone, on them. It's a measure of skill that shouldn't have been removed in my opinion. With the additional removal of Flash, we're now more limited in options to mete out AoE aggression, which makes me wonder if and when combos will ever be used. If Iron Will is too weak, we'll be spamming our only AoE skill in every encounter outside of boss battles. If Iron Will is too strong, the job gets boringly stale.

I'm just not seeing how they can balance this properly.

Considering I could pull aggro on bosses as a WAR in Deliverance when the MT was in Defiance, clearly bad tanks needed a lot of help. People thought if they just stance danced they'd be everyone's favourite party member, but they would just lose out to OTs that were better at MT in their OT stance.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

If Iron Will is too weak, we'll be spamming our only AoE skill in every encounter outside of boss battles. If Iron Will is too strong, the job gets boringly stale.

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With TP removed, I would hazard a guess that there's effectively no reason not to be spamming your AoE skills during big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

They took long enough.

With shirk and new provoke now, there is no need to the off tank leave the tank stance anymore.

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Was with you till that last part...why would you even want that to be a thing? Offtanks in tank stance was terrible before, not it'll just be completely useless and possibly spin mobs or get you a surprise tankbuster while your healers think someone else is tanking.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Considering I could pull aggro on bosses as a WAR in Deliverance when the MT was in Defiance, clearly bad tanks needed a lot of help. People thought if they just stance danced they'd be everyone's favourite party member, but they would just lose out to OTs that were better at MT in their OT stance.

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To be fair, whenever I lose aggro in Tankstance to Offstance, it's normally because I'm an iLevel 50 PLD going against a level 70 WAR, against Ifrit(Hard) where that doesn't matter.

Their intentions were to simplify the enmity management to a level where it really does not matter anymore. MT can just sit at tank stance without any damage penalty and they will be fine. They have also reduced CD on voke and gave additional enmity to it, just to make things even more easier. What I am really curious about is: how much is that additional enmity provided by voke ? Is that enough to make viable boss pulling with Provoke instead of Shield Lob/ Unmend / Tomahawk so you can pull with an oGCD making your first real GCD a little bit earlier in the fight?

They need to fix this. God damn war provoking off of me in WoD and I can't out threat them unless I use provoke and retake the boss. So basically me and this other tank just provoked off one another. I can roh combo till the cows come home and still won't be able to take bosses off unless I provoke off them or they die.

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Originally Posted by Niurok

They need to fix this. God damn war provoking off of me in WoD and I can't out threat them unless I use provoke and retake the boss. So basically me and this other tank just provoked off one another. I can roh combo till the cows come home and still won't be able to take bosses off unless I provoke off them or they die.

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And if they are provoking like retards, why do you want the boss back? There is no gain from being the MT.

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Originally Posted by Xan_Kriegor

Their intentions were to simplify the enmity management to a level where it really does not matter anymore. MT can just sit at tank stance without any damage penalty and they will be fine. They have also reduced CD on voke and gave additional enmity to it, just to make things even more easier. What I am really curious about is: how much is that additional enmity provided by voke ? Is that enough to make viable boss pulling with Provoke instead of Shield Lob/ Unmend / Tomahawk so you can pull with an oGCD making your first real GCD a little bit earlier in the fight?

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It's definitely not, aggro generation now is off the charts, but the puller must use their pulling skill (Shield Lob, Tomahawk, etc.) Provoke gives a % of the current aggro as a bump, if you provoke on pull you are just going to get 2 points of aggro. Also it's impossible to pull with an oGCD without losing a GCD. Everyone starts at the same time in a proper fight, unless you pull before countdown reaches 1, which in turn makes everyone else lose GCDs.

Honestly if they want the MT so badly ill just let them

I would insist Dark be MT in 24 man because of TBN

I tank because that's what I'm playing. No reason on God's green earth to pull off a tank who already has the bosses attention unless your just another weak tank.

For reference:
Provoke now grants additional enmity equivalent to 353k damage. (Reddit Link)

I understand the reasoning for this, but this is also why Shirk exists. It's supposed to be a hand-off between two complying tanks.

In 24-man content, if another tank comes to provoke off of you when you're actively tanking, they're not taking aggro off you unless they're better geared (in which case, they should be tanking). You'll have full control back within the GCD, and there's no disruption to the fight. Here, the only way to retain it is if you counter-voke, and the cycle repeats itself every thirty seconds until the fight ends or until they get the point. It's not so much an issue in the previous 24-mans, but when the newer stuff comes out, everyone is going to want to have a crack at tanking it.

It's going to end up being incredibly disruptive.

I understand that this is partially a problem of content design, in that there's only really one interesting tanking role in 24-mans that needs to be shared between three tanks. I suppose an alternative solution is to give every team in the alliance a shot to play the 'main role', with the boss debuffing your team on death such that you have to swap teams around for the next fight. That way, you could have three bosses, across which all three tanks would each get a shot at, and then a final boss which actually involves three tanks by design.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I understand that this is partially a problem of content design, in that there's only really one interesting tanking role in 24-mans that needs to be shared between three tanks. I suppose an alternative solution is to give every team in the alliance a shot to play the 'main role', with the boss debuffing your team on death such that you have to swap teams around for the next fight. That way, you could have three bosses, across which all three tanks would each get a shot at, and then a final boss which actually involves three tanks by design.

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Japan already fixed this issue way back in ARR. The unspoken rule is, Alliance B is MT, unless they agree in chat otherwise.

I tank therefore I am. I don't do craft-grunt work. If I want to do that then I'll play dps. Same thing happened in CM or whatever it's called the quicker mqs. Damn drk just pulls threat off of me like it's nothing. I understand completely that PLD doesn't have cheap threat moves like drk or war or a nigh-infinite duration attack buff.