Basically, with ShB, Tanks are getting not trash accessories so all items will now have capped Primary Stats on and Primary Stat materia are being removed.
This leads to the thought... What is the actual point of gear sets? Like, already they're of limited actual relevance due to 99.99% of items being Primary Stat capped anyway *Cough*Fending Accessories*Cough*
But... With the complete removal of Primary Stats from the equation, there's no point in actually having the 4 different Primary stats (Outside of gimping Physick on Summoner) making there be little point to have the different sets.
Literally the only thing about the sets that will actually matter is that Fending/Maiming stuff will have slightly higher Defence on and Fending/Healing stuff doesn't naturally have Direct Hit on (While being able to have Tenacity/Piety instead)
But honestly... Couldn't that be adjusted in alternate ways too? Such as tying the extra Defence to the Tank Trait (Which is where they're getting their extra HP from instead of extra VIT) or even just scaling items based on the job you're on (Kind of like how the Aetheryte Earrings change what stats they give based on your jobs role)
Like... The only thing I can think of to actually keep gear sets around instead of just you know... Removing the different Primary Stats and simply letting people figure out what items they want based on their secondary stats... Is that comment about "Wanting players to be able to easily tell what job you're playing" via locked Glamour options (Which is a really weak excuse when you remember that you can literally Glamour any job into wearing regular clothes/bikinis/chocobo suits etc. With job identification literally only coming down to weapon usage (Outside of SCH/SMN because outside of relics their weapons are identical))
I don't know. It just seems like they're needlessly complicating things by having to add so many different types of gear in each category to have different secondary stats on when there's little actual point of doing so. Since you can simply just reduce things down given that Primary Stats are essentially non-existent (While also then freeing up people to have more freedom to glamour :cool: )
Question: What is the point of gear sets?
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06-18-2019, 06:31 AMKaliseQuestion: What is the point of gear sets?
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06-18-2019, 06:41 AMHezkezl
To reverse your line of reasoning... you're saying that the only purpose of having gear sets, was so that you could add Primary Stat materia to it because there was uncapped Primary Stats on that gear?
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06-18-2019, 07:07 AMKalisePretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hezkezl
That and pre-Aetheryte Earrings they hadn't shown the capability to easily adjust certain aspects of gear (I.e. Defence) as well as pre-Media Tour details for ShB they hadn't shown they could adjust stat scaling to alleviate things like Fending having extra VIT compared to other gear.
With the above things showing that they can bypass the major differences between gear, the only other thing that was relevant was looking for the specific materia to bump up the right Primary Stat for your job.
Essentially, the 3 major things about the different sets are:
* Primary Stats (In the case where they weren't capped and you needed specific materia to address that)
* Defences (I.e. Fending having higher than other sets, with some other differences like Casters/Healers having slightly higher Mag defence compared to Scouting/Aiming whom had higher Phys defence)
* Vitality (Specifically, Fending stuff often had more Vitality on to give them more HP than other jobs)
They've addressed one of the above aspects (Vitality) with ShB. They have the tools available to remove the other 2 due to one of them being made irrelevant (Different Primary Stats) and the other being easily role scaled like with another item they have in the game (If not addressed via Trait like with Vitality) -
06-18-2019, 07:17 AMArcaneDisgeaOh man I forgot they are removing secondary stats too. I second this why have gear sets and since stats are capped anyways lets remove materia slots unless they have intentions to give us back PVP materia(stun resistance, sleep resistance, etc) for PVE use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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06-18-2019, 07:39 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
Let's take it a step further: no more gear. You just get a basic AF appearance, and your power scales based on level. And you get more levels after max, which let's you do more damage to higher level enemies and raid bosses. Actually, let's just remove damage too, since it just goes up with level. Just make enemies take a % reduction from 100 per hit, with decimal places.
But for real, the sets all have varying secondary stats. Main Stat melding never had a point unless you were a tank for str, and then only in 4.x, or if you had nq gear, which you should never have had anyway. -
06-18-2019, 07:52 AMEdaxFor real through, that would be an excellent way of removing that awful gear treadmill in-between expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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06-18-2019, 07:53 AMKazrahAs one great programming philosopher once said, "if you make something 'idiotproof', then someone will just build a bigger idiot". There's a reason why SB leveling sets for crafters and gatherers are locked to them rather than having the "all classes" tag on them like before: because people are stupid. Not only did you have the "spiritbonders" in various roulette content (usually Main Scenario) bringing groups down because they wanted materia, but you also had people with crafting and gathering gear equipped for jobs in dungeons just because they genuinely didn't know better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
To answer the question, there are probably a couple of reasons. Role fantasy and identity, QoL for newer or more inexperienced players, some excuse about using multiple glamours for other roles to prolong their usage like the gear from the Sirensong Sea dungeon, but I think the biggest two are loot conditions and base-level coding (as in a 1.0 leftover like base classes) that doesn't have any extreme reason to be changed.
While I do agree that some accessories could potentially be adjusted if there's no primary stat on them except for Fending ones, having primary stats on armor provides a more visible way for the player to increase the power of their character without always having to resort to some arcane theorycrafting min/maxing guide. Then again, I think I'd much rather wait for the expansion to come out to actually question or critique stat stuff. -
06-18-2019, 08:11 AMlinay
Gear sets also exist for loot distribution. Rather than everyone needing for that shaft, only tanks need to worry about fending and Dragoon for maiming, etc.
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06-18-2019, 08:17 AMKaliseBut, outside of Tenacity (On Fending gear), Piety (On Healing gear) and Direct Hit (Absent from Fending/Healing gear) that's not really a reason to have different sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
Especially when all jobs have the same stat priorities based around Crit/DH/Det/SkS/SpS with Tenacity and Piety not being wanted...
If you simply just had items with different secondary stats. People would then just pick the items with the optimal secondary stats.
Essentially, meaning that they wouldn't end up having to design say, several different Fending helmets all with different secondary stats to make getting BiS gear require getting items from multiple different sources (I.e. Raids, Tomes, Eureka, Crafting) to try and get secondary stats to align (With then mathing out whether the Primary Stat gain from a higher ilevel item is worth the loss of several hundred of a optimal stat in favour of a less optimal stat)
Someone could more easily gear up with their optimal stats via a single route. By just choosing the higher level item with stats they want on it.
Note that I've not actually said to remove Primary Stats altogether. Just to remove the 4 different ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrah
I.e. Consolidate them all down to a singular Primary Stat. Since that is essentially what they are given that they're all identical and all maxxed out with the only thing that was in any way relevant to them being different (Materia) being removed.
Alternatively, you can remove sets by simply doing an Aetheryte Earring and having items swap Primary Stat based on what job you are.
The result would being that they could continue to make Glamour sets. Such as having a bunch of Plate armour, Medium armour, Light armour and Robes.
Just that these Glamours wouldn't be restricted to certain jobs with the items themselves merely being differentiated by the secondary stats they have on them (I.e. They could still make it so that Tenacity is still found on the heavy Plate armour glamour sets and Piety is found on the Robes. Just, Tanks/Healers won't be forced to wear these items if they want an ilevel increase but don't want those stats, in favour of items that have say, Crit or Det on) -
06-18-2019, 08:22 AMkidalutz
I think its to extend the contents viability with those items being needed that said.. if they would lower the bloody things to two each or even better one each for all of them I think it would make that entire process less tedious. as anyone whos ever healed past midnight can attest
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06-18-2019, 08:25 AMGenz
What's the point of gear?
... that's actually an interesting question for a game designer. And what about stats, levels, experience? There are ton of things to say, some games that make good use of these and some that make less good use ; but FFXIV, since the release of A Realm Reborn, basically answers : "I don't give a ****. I just want you to grind." -
06-18-2019, 08:47 AMKaliseGear Treadmills give people a reason to grind (When the grind isn't itself, enjoyable. At least, to the point where people will do the grind because its fun to do it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Genz
Stats are a means of simulating progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genz
You progress by getting more stats. This links directly to Gear Treadmills.
Levels/Experience? They can also offer a limited amount of progression factor (Though, level caps hard limit their effectiveness, outside of Prestige levels)
At least in XIV.
In other games, there's more use from these things. Such as Stats being a way to customize your character and rotations (By allowing for multiple builds to be effective and have actual impact on your perfomance, more than just "Sometimes you hit harder") as well as having some other interesting effects (I remember back in WoW when Intellect was useful for characters to gain Weapon Skill. So even Warriors had a reason to get a bunch of Intellect before they went around whacking mobs to train up their new weapon they got from a Raid that was a different weapon type to what they had been using for a while)
Levels are also typically used to gate content (Something XIV does with MSQ anyway) though the notion of levels has become more and more redundant in recent times. What with more and more games focusing around "Max Level or GTFO" because of content being designed purely for max level characters. With leveling merely being a chore to do at the start of an expansion before you're allowed to play the game.
Experience... As I mentioned prior, has been used in other games for Prestige levels. To allow character advancement beyond actual levels. That said, some games still have actually leveling up to max level being a feat itself. Anarchy Online for example, has 200 levels and then 25 Shadow Levels (Each one requires more time and exp than level 1-200 did). BDO uses a "Soft Cap" system where there are like 100 levels in the game, but even hardcore 24/7 grinders have barely gotten to like level 63 (With normal people attaining only level 56-60), due to the way that exp requirements/gains scale to have essentially soft cap people at level 60-61 while levels higher than that still exist and can be worked towards (Over literally thousands of hours)
But yeah... Either way, XIV has not really utilized these things in a particularly great way. Mostly in favour of catering to idiots who'd get too confused if they had to actually think about stats and not just look at the ilevel and pick the biggest number... -
06-18-2019, 10:05 AMNedkel
They could as well delete gear entirely, remove skills and jobs, remove jumping and moving, remove camera movements. Lets make it a true cinematic scripted experience on rails, where you will log in and just watch like netflix. xD
The game is too hard for casuals you know starting and logging in nobody needs that, lets make a MP4 "gaming experience" yes yes, or just make it a GIF without sound, because you know music could be too heavy for ears and we dont want kids to become deaf. That will be 59.99 for 5 mb of GIF early access on steam, thank you. -
06-18-2019, 10:41 AMKaethraAdd in a RNG variance of a few tenths of a percentage more or less for flavor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
And you literally have what we have now if you really want to think about it. As a coder for a project I'm apart of now for a game, what you said isn't terribly far from how devs balance encounters. There's a certain number of hits you need to get through a objective. That's where the term Hit Points came from. Something would have something in the neighborhood of say 40 Hit Points and require 40 hits to take down. Game systems got a little fancy and started having 'special' attacks that counted for 2 or 3 or more hits.
But now the devs in FFXIV have done something I've done similarly with Potency. Potency tells them how many actions are needed from each class should they have the gear needed for the encounter. If they lack the gear it takes more actions. If they have better gear, they're rewarded with less actions.
We as players see numbers. We try to get those numbers as high as possible. But the numbers don't come out from a vacuum. The math for each encounter on how many hits, actions, rotations, ect from each class is needed. They multiply that by the amount of time they want a fight to take, and that gives them the Hit Points they need for the encounter. Adjustments are made to potencies of abilities as needed depending on how classes are actually used (sometimes we use classes better then they expect, or cannot execute the proper actions in the right rotation due to mitigating circumstances in encounters). -
06-18-2019, 11:28 AMlegionealready in game ,its called msq :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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06-18-2019, 11:45 AMAxlStream
It's all about secondary stats. Warriors will always want maximum crit to maximise IR window damage while having their 2.38 second GCD to fit in 5 Fell Cleaves inside the 10 seconds window while other tanks may want to go with other stats like det to have higher consistent damage as they are not as crit dependant.
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06-18-2019, 12:33 PMTharneThis is one of the reason. They want job restrictions on gear and they will not change that, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
And before the "but we can already wear this... so why not that..." : exception not the rule.