Tenacity

With the new launch do you think Tenacity will be a thing again or is it still useless?

Probably going to be useless on PLD and WAR but somewhat useful on GNB and DRK unless Crit proves to be OP as ever along with Direct Hit Rate, meaning Skill Speed will only be your 3rd option if that is the case...

Tenacity as a defensive stat will have no place outside of potentially ultimates.

Tenacity as an offensive stat will change not at all. Melds will still be like this:

If BiS Crit breaks even with DH or better: Crit > DH > Det > Ten; SkS only to reach GCD sweetspots.
If BiS Crit too low to theoretically beat DH: DH > Crit > Det > Ten; SkS unchanged
If playing ungabunga / WAR: Crit > Det > Ten / SkS > DH.

TL;DR: Tenacity is an ok stat, just not one viable to focus on.

In next expansion i will try to make set with highest possible tenacity count, and another one with full crit and will compare both.

They are going to change the damage formulas a little bit so it may have an affect on the stats we are using.

As a PLD first I use Tenacity. I always try to get as much as I can to make it easier to keep threat up and then I would pick aim or might. I don't stance dance unless it's some kind of intermission like Xande going to the throne.

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Originally Posted by Niurok

As a PLD first I use Tenacity. I always try to get as much as I can to make it easier to keep threat up and then I would pick aim or might. I don't stance dance unless it's some kind of intermission like Xande going to the throne.

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Tenacity doesn't affect aggro though, only affects damage dealt/received and healing received

Unless shadowbringers raises damage way too much or changes how much tenacity boots damage.. prolly not seein it work well.

If they dont change anything then.....tenacity wont change.


The only thing that is likely to change is the DH vs Crit relationship is reset. Crit gets better the more you stack. DH is just linear so in low amounts DH beats crit (except on war). Once you can stack more crit as ilvl increases over 5.X series, crit will overtake DH like it is now.

Any other changes we wont know until release and the number ceunches start updating formulas to see if anything has fundamentally changed.

SE hasnt said anything that ive seen suggesting they are reviewing or updating secondary stats, so probably nothing is changing.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

The only thing that is likely to change is the DH vs Crit relationship is reset.

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Technically, there's also a very minor increase to the worth of SkS.

With TP's removal, you no longer have to care about SkS ending up with you capped by TP regen especially with only WAR having a TP restoration skill in SB.

I don't expect it to change too much, but it might be that in some instances SkS might compete with Det - Depending on the job and the current gear levels (I.e. GNB will get more out of SkS than other jobs because Gnashing, their major DPS increase, has its CD affected by it. DRK might have a slightly different breakpoint for SkS when it affords them additional Syphon Strikes per minute enough to use an extra EoS. Meanwhile, PLD won't care since Holy Spirit isn't affected by it so a significant portion of their damage won't benefit at all)

So, it possibly might end up being a staple for GNB and WAR (WAR not getting much out of DH because ungabunga. Also, with Inner Chaos there's added value for more BG generation per minute to get more FC's to reduce Infuriate CD).

Depends on how the math all works out. GNB will be like DH(Crit) > Crit(DH) > SkS/Det while WAR will be Crit > Det > SkS. With likely PLD/DRK still remaining as DH(Crit) > Crit(DH) > Det.

In essence... While passive defence from gear and mitigation from all the plethora of skills we have is so high (With damage mostly being concentrated into Tankbusters)... Tenacity is a redundant stat, since the extra mitigation is not necessary and its DPS value is just objectively lower than every other stat.

But who knows, maybe at level 80 they'll be jacking damage up so that Tenacity might actually be relevant? I doubt it, but it's possible.

Fair point on SS. It will play a bigger role on mnk and ninja for sure. There a possibility with guns slight synergy with skillspeed, but the timer desynch from raid buffs id wager that will probably get the axe quickly.

Tanks dont hav tp issues outside of aoe anymore with all our 'free' gcds (gauge skills and holy spirit). So probably no effect on tanks. Drk/war SS to get 5 gcds in 10 sec burst window. Then stat as normal.

Part of ke wants to think that memespeed warrior might have a prayer to double dip on more gauge more fc more chaos, but the addition of even more mega forced crits means crit is jist going to be MORE valuable on war. So probs no memespeed.

But there might be space for memespeed gun if you run without a ninja. But we will probably see that late in the 5.x patch cycle

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Originally Posted by Izsha

There a possibility with guns slight synergy with skillspeed, but the timer desynch from raid buffs id wager that will probably get the axe quickly.

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Depends on how much you can reasonably take it. Like, if you get it down to 20s from 30s CD, then you still sync up with most raid buffs (60s, 120s, 180s) with only the 90s ones being slightly awkward.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Tanks dont hav tp issues outside of aoe anymore with all our 'free' gcds (gauge skills and holy spirit). So probably no effect on tanks.

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They do if they have high enough SkS.

I know I run into issues in Eureka with my high SkS Warrior with the Speed Belt and BA chest (Both with 3% haste each). Where during long fights, it is possible to actually run out of TP, even with ungabunga phases and Memecleaves within the standard rotation. (Often accelerated due to being at about 50% TP after AoEing before starting a fight with a NM)

Which could be a potential thing depending on how Det vs SkS ends up working out in ShB since Det is really the only stat that SkS has a chance of competing with (Crit is the One True Stat because of how it triple dips to make its later expansion scaling so good. With DH being the only other stat that really competes with Crit, mostly due to its early expansion returns. Leaving Det as the "Well, it's better than nothing" stat)

Yes. In an uninterupted dummy fight starting at half tp with haste gear that doesnt exist normally and a full memespeed build war 'might' run out of tp.

Ill stand by my earlier statement :P

20 seconds off 30 is the same as your gcd going from 2.5 to 1.666667 seconds. Thats never happening unless you have mega speed boosts on par with greased lightning 4. Not a tank possibility. Memespeed gunbreaker in traditional content could only work late stage expac while ignoring raid buffs (bad comp) or or just bot caring about raid buffs like a solo dummy or 24man raid deal.

Wothout some major shakeup its just crit/dh competing and way back there det and Ss competing for the 3rd place"i cant meld more of ky 2 good stats on this item". With the exception of war where its competing with tenacity for that slot and might have a prayer. Its just a fight for 1st looser stat.

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Originally Posted by Niurok

As a PLD first I use Tenacity. I always try to get as much as I can to make it easier to keep threat up and then I would pick aim or might. I don't stance dance unless it's some kind of intermission like Xande going to the throne.

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Damage dealt affects aggro.

It will probably once again be the budget materia option. If I can get 2-3 tenacity materia for the price of 1 crit materia like I did at the beginning of Stormblood, I'll use the tenacity and sell the crit. Unless I also decide to gear a DPS job.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

It will probably once again be the budget materia option. If I can get 2-3 tenacity materia for the price of 1 crit materia like I did at the beginning of Stormblood, I'll use the tenacity and sell the crit. Unless I also decide to gear a DPS job.

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I think they need to nerf Crit if that does end up happening again... or at the very least buff Tenacity...

Tenacity will never be better than det let alone crit. Its a defensive stat that mitigates damage. If it was better at damage than damage only stats, it would be even more 'required' than crit. Ten will never be the best choice for damage.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I think they need to nerf Crit if that does end up happening again... or at the very least buff Tenacity...

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The funny thing is player perception plays a huge role in the cost. If Tenacity is inferior to Crit to any extent, tanks will favor Crit no matter how small the gap. The actual realized DPS increase might be less than 1% and they'll still do it. Then there's the fact that tanks are a minority compared to DPS being a majority. Early in SB I just found it better to slot Tenacity by buying Crit materia with my cracked clusters, selling it, and then buying Tenacity off the market board. That way I didn't leave any slots open, even for gear I knew would be replaced soon-ish. Whereas with slotting Crit I found myself waiting for something semi-permanent before slotting.

It has been stated numerous times in interviews that if they made Tenacity good, then everyone would just only gear for Tenacity. They made it as a replacement to the Parrying stat, which was otherwise pointless. Tenacity is a better dump stats because it affects a tiny bit of everything.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

The funny thing is player perception plays a huge role in the cost. If Tenacity is inferior to Crit to any extent, tanks will favor Crit no matter how small the gap. The actual realized DPS increase might be less than 1% and they'll still do it.

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That's because the defensive benefits of Tenacity are even lesser than that difference. It was the same issue with Parry - it was such a low mitigation boost that it wasn't worth it, even if you wanted to turtle it up. Honestly they'd do Tenacity a favor by removing this stupid hybrid stat quality and making it pure defensive stat, but actually a substantial one - then it'd be at least potentially useful for prog like non-tank vit melds.

It does have a niche. People use it in ultimates and such. Its also not a 'bad' stat. Its a fraction off of det while providing mitigation. The only real problem is this games mitigation is very stromg and outgoing heal power is very strong. We dont actually need any more mitigation for 99% of content. But when times get tuff (ultimate), suddenly people find a use for mitigation.

It does its job. Players just dont care because tanks and heals are OP in this game. If you full build ten towards the end of an expac you can get large, permanent damage reduction. Id need to recheck the math but it was like 10 or 15%. Thats a lot of passive mit. But peopme would rather have 0 ten and do 5%more damage. Ten is fine. Its better than parry and usful when you actually want mit. players just dont want mit cuz tanks op.

Tenacity affects both offense and defense. Because it affects defense, the devs will never purposefully let it be the most powerful offensive secondary. If you want to maximize offense and defense at the same time, go for it. If you're more focused on offense alone, other stats will serve you better.

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If you full build ten towards the end of an expac you can get large, permanent damage reduction. Id need to recheck the math but it was like 10 or 15%.

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It looks like full Tenacity in a maximum Item Level build results in 1920 (1940 if you're willing to get a partial return on one materia), which is a modifier of ~7.1%. Going for Tenacity with zero regard for Item Level (or putting Strength materia in accessories) resulted in 2924 on a Warrior; about 11.7%.

I use tenacity because 99% of instanced content I play is duty finder PUGs, and I think it's worth taking a relatively minor DPS hit to have more survivability when grouped with random morons. I've also heard a few times that tenacity is sometimes used in progression raiding... is that true?

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

I use tenacity because 99% of instanced content I play is duty finder PUGs, and I think it's worth taking a relatively minor DPS hit to have more survivability when grouped with random morons. I've also heard a few times that tenacity is sometimes used in progression raiding... is that true?

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Its only beem seriously used in some world 1st attempts and ultimate. Basically anything you are really undergeared (week 1 ilvl gear doing last tier savage), or ultimates that are tuned far higher than the gear.

Tldr: when shit hits so hard you need all the help you can get because your ilvl cant hack it alone.

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Originally Posted by ShinShimon

I use tenacity because 99% of instanced content I play is duty finder PUGs, and I think it's worth taking a relatively minor DPS hit to have more survivability when grouped with random morons. I've also heard a few times that tenacity is sometimes used in progression raiding... is that true?

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Im thinking the same now.
We have materia 8 now which will give even more stats so i guess i will go with full ten set.

If it affects damage it affects threat.