Redacted the thread
Is anyone else getting the feeling
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06-13-2019, 01:54 AMIzanagi_FiaresuIs anyone else getting the feeling
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06-13-2019, 01:59 AMVidera
Final Fantasy has always had beef with blind faith and generally following an ideology without thinking about it.
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06-13-2019, 02:00 AMIzanagi_FiaresuCan't they use other religions as symbolism? I mean it is pretty anti christian first the HW story and now the Holiness being evilQuote:
Originally Posted by Videra
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06-13-2019, 02:02 AMMoonfishYou and your religion aren’t victims here. Let’s remember that this is a game, shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
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06-13-2019, 02:02 AMDriavnaYou are overthinking it too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
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06-13-2019, 02:03 AMAllegor
In HW yes, but it's kind of a historical fact the church had an EVIL period and they simply referenced said dark era, rather than straight up saying religion is bad, period. With ShB...I don't see it - if anything, it looks more like the Ying-Yang theme of light and dark needing a balance and neither being inherently good or bad.
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06-13-2019, 02:07 AMSoloWingMetatronAlthough the visual elements of the Sin Eaters take some inspiration of Christian, Islamic and Jewish religious figures...not one of them is actually a representation of said figures. For example those holy lions we fight are not the Lion of Judah, nor are they made out to be. The lore for 5.0 is not a commentary on anti-religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
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06-13-2019, 02:07 AMShougunOrganized religion and the very real possible corruption has always been questioned in jRPGs but faith not so much (being careful of faith yes, but generally jRPG don't have a "don't believe anything"). I would suggest that you only see it an attack on you specifically if you fear your gathering needs to be questioned and hasn't been lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
SE also sometimes questions the concept of being faithless :). Think of it more as a debate and raising of questions than an attack. -
06-13-2019, 02:08 AMElazulHP
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06-13-2019, 02:10 AMlinayIf so, I don't really see it. From what I can tell, Heavensward isn't really against religion, but more against corrupt leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
Shadowbringers seems to be more about pro-balance rather than anti-light, which is probably something from eastern religion. After all, it doesn't change the fact that we still will fight against any voidsent that threatens the Source. -
06-13-2019, 02:13 AMKyomagi
The game is a work of fiction. I am a Christian too, and i don't see how this is "anti-christian". They do not make reference to the Christian God or Jesus in anyway.
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06-13-2019, 02:17 AMIscah
Honestly (and as a fellow Christian) I think Heavensward was a lot less anti-(pseudo-)Christian than I initially expected it might be.
The enemy is "the Church" but the wrongdoing comes from humans within the church, not the religion or the goddess Herself. The same plot could play out with a secular government and vey little would change.
At the same time we have (in post-ARR) Aymeric giving a more moderate, less militant take on the faith, and Lucia who has converted from atheist Garlean to believer.
And at a larger scale, a lot of Japanese media takes the "God is actually evil / not what people believe" route often enough. Makes for good storytelling and good imagery, especially if you're not attached to it, and I've been expecting them to go somewhere down that route for a long time. The question was only ever how drastically.
Hold tight, wait and see what the story makes of it, and hopefully Hydaelyn will come out the other side still essentially being our all-loving mother goddess even if She isn't quite what She claimed.
Anything else, you just have to sigh and bear it, and appreciate the story for what it is. -
06-13-2019, 02:18 AMSoloWingMetatronYet FF does make reference to other Gods directly, such as Odin, Shiva, Lakshmi (to name a few)...apparently these are ok?....but when it comes to the slightest hint of Christian/Islamic/Jewish iconography or visual cues, all off a sudden it's a problem?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyomagi
Those are rhetorical questions btw, not directed at anyone specifically. I just want to bring light to the hypocrisy of such a debate. -
06-13-2019, 02:19 AMWhiteArchmage
Japan has a rather fuzzy view of Christianity (sort of to how the West generally has little clue about Shinto), but they like the aesthetic THEMES of it. So you often see non-denominational but vaguely Christian-like Priests in Japanese games, in Gothic looking cathedrals, but the religion itself is very vaguely developed or downright inaccurate in a few aspects (I remember Ghost Hunt has a 19-year old Catholic exorcist, when you can't even be ordained at 19).
In short, religion in (Fantasy) games is usually not meant to reflect any real world religion besides the superficial. -
06-13-2019, 02:26 AMKalise
Last I checked, not worshipping false idols was literally one of the 10 commandments.
Thus, Heavensward would be pro-Christian (If it was actually based off of Christianity, as opposed to a fantasy setting where there are 12 "Gods" that people worship)
Shadowbringers seems to be working somewhat on the idea of fanaticism and blind faith being not particularly good ways to live.
Also, you're skipping out on the fact that Stormblood was pro-religion. From the citizens of Gyr Abania worshipping Rhalgr (But being forbidden to do so because the bad guy Imperials dislike it), to the Kojin having their own religion where their gods inhabit pieces ofgarbagetreasure. Even the Xaela's religion is shown in a positive light, as it gives tribes which would otherwise wipe each other out, some semblance of common ground.
P.S. Christianity isn't even a particularly popular religion in Japan so it's unlikely that it would be directly targeted by the Japanese developers (About 1% of the population are Christians... It's likely they don't even know much about Christianity as a whole in the nation with Shintoism and Buddhism being by far the more common religions in Japan) -
06-13-2019, 02:30 AMZsplash
Solid advice is to go play a SMT game, lol.
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06-13-2019, 02:32 AMCrystal_Raven
The more I look at the forums the more I am disgusted by the human species.
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06-13-2019, 02:33 AMSoloWingMetatronThis place truly does attract some.......interesting individuals hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven
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06-13-2019, 02:37 AMAnimaAnimus
Waiting on Primal Jesus to make an entrance so we can CRUSH him and his followers like we do with Gods from many many other religions.
Christians feeling persecuted always amuses me considering the past 2000 years of history and even nearly any hot topic in the news today which is always "something something should be outlawed, so and so shouldn't have rights to..., something something cause my christian values something something" -
06-13-2019, 02:40 AMSoloWingMetatronThis exactly!....Hypocrisy is rife within devout Christian communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus
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06-13-2019, 02:44 AMCrystal_RavenI'm just gonna leave this here.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus
https://i.imgur.com/a2WVRA4.png -
06-13-2019, 02:49 AMMelichoir
Ok, lets go down this thought path:
In HW, the [strike]pope[/strike] Archbishop was using the power of the church to wage an unjustified war, and abusing the faith of it's followers by hiding the truth. Now you could say "Oh hey, this is a jab at christianity" and you might be able to draw some parallels but it's more an attack on themes of corrupt leaders abusing their position to secure power for themselves. Broadly, as someone pointed out, unfettered faith (or probably more accurately Dogma) is a theme that plays out in FF series. Though its not only just Dogma that gets this treatment. Generally, FF has had a pretty consistent theme of corrupt Rulers who control the masses with lies. The benevolent king who is secretly sacrificing children to Eldritch Horrors for more money/power/immortality/etc. You could argue that FF on the whole tends to take a more libertarian approach to power structures, where those at the top need to be held accountable, but I digress.
Going back to the faith aspect, its not only christianity that gets poked at, but religion in general. Primals and the worship of them tends to lead to strife and subjugation. When inspecting beast tribes, those who fall under the sway of primals go out of their way to persecute non believers and kill them.
In FFXIV though, it was more of a vibe of finding balance between good and evil. We've always had assumptions up to this point that Zodiark = Evil (though we can thank ascians for that...), but the lore has stated multiple times that the light is also a terrible force if left unchecked. We just keep forgetting that. We know the Void is pretty much a place consumed by darkness, but we havent seen what happens in reverse. ShB is pretty much gonna demonstrate that going about wiping out all darkness is gonna end up biting us in the butt.
So no, its not an attack on Christianity. -
06-13-2019, 02:56 AMSoloWingMetatronWait......the Knights Templar had rocket launchers?!.....damn son. Them poor witches :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven
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06-13-2019, 03:01 AMKyomagithe character we drive does not worship them in any way and instead we beat the crap out of them. Other gods exist in the real world too, what you decide to do with that info is up to the user.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
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06-13-2019, 03:04 AMSoloWingMetatronBut for a user to exclaim the use of one God is an offense, yet make no quarrel with the uses of other Gods, is hypocrisy by the very definition. That's the point I'm trying to make, the Christian God does not get any special rules over any other God....either it's all ok or none of it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyomagi
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06-13-2019, 03:09 AMSathonaIts a video game who the f**k cares? :xQuote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
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06-13-2019, 03:11 AMCrystal_RavenKindly take this type of behaviour and unnecessary "content" as far away as possible from video games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixt
I would tell you exactly what to do with that type of stuff but it would get me banned for a while. -
06-13-2019, 03:12 AMKyomagiYou really are reaching to the point I wonder if you're trolling. This game does not make any mention of God or Jesus. They use figures that have been popularized throughout history. The Odin of this game is in no relation to the Odin of Norris mythology. When they start to make direct references to God and Jesus, I'll take issue then.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
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06-13-2019, 03:15 AMArngrim_Greyashe
Keep your religious beliefs out of my video game.
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06-13-2019, 03:17 AMSoloWingMetatronWhat on Earth are you on about?...That Odin is very much a direct reference to the Norse God of the same name....even down to his horse and weaponry. Just like Ultima the High Seraph and Leviathan are named after the same figures in Christian/Islamic/Jewish faiths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyomagi
Furthermore I personally have no issue if they directly include Christian/Islamic/Jewish figures in XIV as Primals, raid bosses or whatever...it means nothing. -
06-13-2019, 03:19 AMKuurei
I feel like this user might be a Reddit user, come here to re-post something just to stir people. lol.
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06-13-2019, 03:19 AMBright-FlowerI feel obligated to share this.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus
https://youtu.be/NrN_paMEKhE?t=1016 -
06-13-2019, 03:20 AMKyomagiYour absolutes now tell me for sure you're trolling. I'm pretty sure God does not care he's not getting love in a video game lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
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06-13-2019, 03:20 AMNedkelHoliness, neither light does not represent Christianity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu
Hydaelyn is not Jesus, nor she is Maria.
SE does not use Crucifix anywhere in their new story.
Also light could be interpreted by people of other religions as their own, in Islam God is literally light/sun and etc.
Light is not exclusive to Christianity. -
06-13-2019, 03:22 AMSoloWingMetatronWhen did I say I wanted God to get love in a video game?...I feel you've totally missed the point here because your replies make literally no sense lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyomagi
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06-13-2019, 03:26 AMKyomagiYou're bitching about him not getting love and I'm telling you I'm pretty sure he does not care. Nobody is cursing him and like others have said light being good and dark being bad are not exclusive to Christianity, so at this point you're assuming its against it to either stir up the board or because you're starving for attentionQuote:
Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron
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06-13-2019, 03:28 AMSoloWingMetatronLiterally never said that in any of my replies...I'm one of the ones in support of your original comment, I even liked it lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyomagi
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06-13-2019, 03:28 AMCookiesNCreams
I’m now a priest. I want each and every one of you to visit my holy priesthood office after Eorzean church services are over. 15 years of age or older are not allowed.
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06-13-2019, 03:31 AMKyomagi
. 10 char limit
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06-13-2019, 03:32 AMSoloWingMetatronHahaha I was wondering why such a disconnect was going on....that's quite fabulous! lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyomagi