I for one am extremely excited about the new changes coming to the game. I am extremely happy that the Developers are trying to eliminate all of the hatred between tanks and healers that are currently in the game. We have all seen tanks and healers fight it is ugly and there is no place for it. I am hoping with the recent changes to all classes that this now balances dungeons in a fun manner.
To those healers that are upset that they will not be able to DPS I recommend that you play a strictly DPS class as clearly that is what you enjoy doing. I personally really enjoy healing. I find it exhilarating when the tank is down to 10% and I can quickly bring him back to full. That is why I heal. I find it extremely excited I do not understand all of the people that find it boring to heal. And once again to the people who find Healing boring I recommend you play a different class.
I'm not only excited about the healing changes but I'm excited for the tanking changes and the DPS changes. I play all classes equally. So I am excited to see as a tank I can now DPS in stance without losing DPS. And for the DPS I'm excited about the changes and the increased DPS output specifically regarding AOE.
A special thank you to the Developers for spending so much time making sure the dungeons are balanced and trying to keep players from arguing with each other. I really appreciate that.
Excited for changes
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06-05-2019, 10:34 AMLordfuriousExcited for changes
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06-05-2019, 10:55 AMBastionus
Dear Lordfurious, I would like to sincerely say that I am happy for you that you are so excited. However I would like to just say that healing does give me joy, but having down time does exist and during said downtimes I believe is what many healers are referring to when it comes to dpsing as a healer as it is a bit bland save for the white mage possibly.
I personally wouldn't mind it as I feel it may bring more people to try healing as it is quite well known that dps is the most popular class in our beloved MMORPG. Personally I would like a system like the Afflatus Misery that white mages have, a DPS skill that you use heals to work towards to be mimicked or recreated for Scholar and Astrologian as a means to show a reward for healing. -
06-05-2019, 11:04 AMForteNightshade
If dungeons scale like they did in Stormblood, healers were still spend more time DPSing or AFKing than they will healing. Until we see an increase in outgoing damage, nothing the devs showed will change this stance because it has never been about healers wanting to DPS. They deal damage because they have nothing else to do.
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06-05-2019, 11:12 AMLozza
While I have no doubt that there are plenty of players who play healer for the fast queues and simply treat it like a dps job, there are many who love healing for healing and who recognise that this game just doesn't have the outgoing and sustained damage to the team to justify playing without using dps spells.
What I think a lot of players "happy" with the changes are getting caught up on is the "dps" aspect. If healers had less time to dps there would be fewer complaints about these changes. However outside of savage content the healing required is tiny if everyone on your team is doing an adequate job of playing their class. The only time I spend 90% of my time healing in dungeons is when the tank in SV is in HoN gear dps edition, and I'm not sure we should be encouraging people who undergear in lvlling content simply because healing is so strong in this game that a healer reasonably familiar with their skill set and properly geared, can carry a tank whose gear is 20 lvls below the dungeon lvl. -
06-05-2019, 12:07 PMalthenawhm
I really, really, HATE it when people try to tell me what role I enjoy.
I like healers, and STOP telling me I dont. -
06-05-2019, 03:08 PMDiznypKC
I’m glad you’re happy about the changes as they seem to positively affect your play style.
However, there is more to FFXIV than dungeons and raids.
Beyond the MMO portion of the game is the RPG. Between the thrilling moments of bringing your tank back from 10% of their health are the MSQ quests, duties, and various side quest activities that require solo progression. I can’t help but notice that this aspect of the game is being completely ignored by the development team in regards to the healer jobs.
I have loved playing a healer in FFXIV since I picked up the ARR beta several years ago. I stuck with my White Mage through the clunky 2.0 mechanics that basically forced you to precast your heals. I still played that job even though it became known as the “useless healer” (yes, that’s a direct quote) in 4.0.
It’s a giant slap in the face to players like me to be told to strictly play a DPS class if we’re not happy with the changes present to us. It is rude, condescending, and, frankly, indicative that you show the very same hatred toward other healers as the tanks you have had trouble with in your runs.
If that’s not the case, then I apologize for the above paragraph.
Back to my point, healers have to be able to progress outside of dungeons and raids. In order to do this, we require a DPS kit. But more to the point, we DESERVE a fully fleshed out kit that requires more than 2-3 buttons. Our MSQ solo duties are already exceedingly boring. (Aero 3 > Aero 2 > Stone 4 > Assize > Stone 4 > Stone 4 > Stone 4 etc.) Now they will be even more so.
As so many people have tried to tell you, the fact of the matter is this game does not dish out enough damage to warrant the amount of pure healing the developers desire. And before you say “it might be different in Shadowbringers,” past precedent shows us it will not, or if it does it will be nerfed in an early patch because the players can’t handle it (see: Steps of Faith). And even if they DO fix it and the players can handle it, there is still all the content from 1-70 where healers will be forced to press the same two buttons over and over because the damage just isn’t coming in.
Healers should have interesting DPS kits. They don’t need to be as deep or complex as the pure DPS, but there’s no reason why they can’t have a simple yet engaging kit. A lack thereof shows there’s little imagination at the top. It’s unfortunate, but there you have it.
If you want even more to mull over, I invite you to traverse through every single Final Fantasy game ever created. Never has there been a healer character who only had access to regenerative spells. Literally from the very first game, the White Mage not only had an offensive spell (only affected undead but it still counts) but also could whack a bishe with a hammer or, hell, even equip the Masamune, aka the ultimate weapon.
Give the healers their Masamune. It’s a game. They want to have fun too.
Peace. -
06-05-2019, 03:39 PMAtlantasia
O.o Is there some sort of war between tanks and healers?? I don't think I've ever hated a tank for being a tank so much as disliked when people come in with lower ilvl gear and do not use CDs. That being said, I check gear so I know what to expect and I ask nicely/stay polite generally. I leave if people are jerks. XD *shrugs* Not going to stew over it. 9 out of 10 times when I say "Please do big pulls" the tanks listen and do so, many of them even do so enthusiastically. If they do it well and don't lose hate, even if their DPS sucks, they will get a commend typically from me unless a DPS stands out somehow.
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06-05-2019, 04:24 PMUrthdiggerWait, lemme get this straight. You don't DPS, yet you like bringing a tank back up from 10%? Are you just sitting around twiddling your thumbs while their HP drops? Jeeze, every post I see from you just cements my opinion that you're hands down the worst healer I've ever seen. Also, why is it cool for tanks to be able to DPS more effectively now, yet an utter sin that must be purged for Healers to sully their hands with such matters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
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06-05-2019, 05:39 PMLegion88Just because i'm curiouse, but what do you do all the time outside of the 2(?) GCDs you need to heal the tank?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
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06-05-2019, 07:00 PMLimonia
I also really like playing healers or I wouldn't play them almost exclusively.
But this game is designed in a way that there is a lot of downtime between healing needed, and healers have such powerful oGCD heals that GCD heals are not needed as often.
And I really like this aspect of healing. I like healing, but I also really like being able to cast dps spells as a healer. Games where I could ONLY heal and buff would be kind of boring to me.
If I would stand there casting Cure all the time or something like that, there would be no use to use all the nice oGCDs. And I would be so bored, and also embarassed for letting my party members farm my loot for me while I only contribute like 10%.
I must say that I really like the new heals SCH got though. I like healing spells. It's just a little bit sad that their dps rotation was simplified to be like AST dps. They could at least have let them keep one more dps spell, like either Miasma or Shadow Flare (or made a new one similar to those).
What annoys me the most is that all healer DoTs are now 30 seconds long. I would have prefered 18-24 seconds. I liked that I had to refresh Aero II often, I was much better at Aero uptime that Combust uptime somehow. Other than that, the new AST cards, and that WHM still has no good AoE shield (Sacred Soil got Regen, so why didn't Asylum get mitigation??? I don't need its heal buff if Asylum already heals, why would I cast a heal over it and not let the HoT tick?), I somehow don't really mind the changes actually...
I also really liked using Energy Drain, but there is ONE thing that makes me happy that it's gone: I met too many SCH using Selene and NEVER using Aetherflow for healing, so the ONLY thing we ever got was Embrace, even though healing would have been needed. Granted only some bad SCH played like that, but well, they existed, and made me furious.
People have said it so many times as well: If someone only likes to use heals and refuses to dps when no healing is necessary, then this game might not be the best choice for them. There are many other MMOs out there where healers have to heal much more than here and they wouldn't be so disrespectful to their party if they only fulfill that aspect of their role. -
06-05-2019, 07:34 PMWaxSw1- Hatred? In my whole career as healer I've never met any tank that had that kind of hatred and knowing how hugbox this community is towards less skilled players that doesnt seem to fit, either way vote kick is a thing and any class shouldn't ever be changed due to a very very low populated minority of douchebagsQuote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
2-You dont tell me what class to play because I could easily say to you that "for those healers that only want to heal I recommend you to go play WoW", as a healer I also enjoy healing and knowing that party lifes are in my hand but that's only 20% as MUCH of the time because how the damage is so... What do healers do in the 80% of the time? I dont know you but I dps and help the party and seeing how the thing that I do in the 80% of my time is being dumbed to the point that its not fun doesnt make me happy, and guess what? the fact that I'm unhappy about the changes doesnt make me less healer.
3-The fact that youre excited for making dps as a tank shows a little bit of hypocrisy, Using your own same logic I could say "doing dps is not tank's job, they should only grab the aggro and be the shield of the party, If you enjoy DPSing I reecomend you to play strictly DPS as clearly is what you enjoy doing" -
06-05-2019, 08:12 PMSebazyYour view here actually surprises me. Please don't take this as a slight, but I don't think you understand how things are likely to play out in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
From the perspective of someone who prefers to play WHM to a reasonably decent standard:
If the tank pulls wall to wall. These changes are a buff to my DPS. Not only that, but the Holy change coupled with 60 second Shroud (and Thin Air of course) is looking like it'll give me near endless sustain.
Chances are I'll be trying to use any required healing as an opportunity to stockpile both Light and Dark Lilies with Bosses being an opportunity to prep three Dark Lilies to hopefully enable landing two Miseries on the following trash pull. One of those is likely to be right after the first holy as the pull train stops. If Assize is up at the same time that's going to be a huge amount of agro that I'll need to be careful with.
In short, unless both SCH and AST get some pretty substantial adjustment, WHM is going to be the new Warrior in dungeons.
I'll use a log from Arboretum to cover my thoughts on this. It's not handpicked, it's just the first complete log that came to hand. Scouring through my logs will find similar numbers regardless of the dungeon or people I run with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
First up, some hard numbers.
That dungeon took a smidge over 13 minutes to clear. Pulls were wall to wall. DPS was solid but not exceptional.
In total, I think it's safe to assume that once you factor in downtime such as moving to the next pull (Roughly a minute total across the dungeon), I had approximately ~230 GCDs to play with in that dungeon.
My casts linked tally up nicely with this. I used 28 healing GCDs across ~12 minutes of combat with a further 13 oGCDs (Which were primarily weaved off the back of instants such as Aero II or Regen). That's a heal every 25 seconds with an oGCD off the back of less than half of them. Even if we space the oGCDs out like the GCDs, that's still 17 seconds per cast.
17-25 seconds per heal cast in a dungeon that's being pulled absolutely wall to wall.
My problem (And I suspect a good portion of the experienced healers here share my view) isn't so much that the healer role lost it's DPS depth. It's that so little of our combat actually involves healing as the above numbers demonstrate.
Before you write me off as a wannabe DPS, feel free to look at my history here. I've even got multiple world top 10s on the Healer throughput rankings across a several tiers. If that doesn't chalk me up as a healy healer. I don't know what does ;)
In short, 80% (More come 5.0) of our kit is only useful ~30% of the time. This trend of taking non healing utility away from healers is nothing new with Virus and Eye for an Eye being great examples of this.
I'd be absolutely over the moon if SE came along and added a healer job that let me spend my spare GCDs buffing and debuffing instead of just mindlessly throwing rocks over and over again. AST was getting close to that but even they took a significant step back with the simplification they received with this patch.
This is a selfish opinion and you should be ashamed of having it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
Effectively, what you're saying here is that it's great that Tanks and DPS get to have more rewarding gameplay but healers don't get to have that luxury. Instead they need to be at the back casting their heal every ~20 seconds?
My response to this isn't especially savoury so I'd better leave it out.
Bad healers will still be bad. If you think this will magically fix them, you're sorely mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
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06-05-2019, 08:30 PMSaefinn
Great that you’re excited for the changes, honestly, although I am disappointed, I don’t think everybody has to be. People like what they like.
A few problems though. There isn’t really infighting between healers and tanks, nor will these changes stop people who are dbags from being so. Most of the time I see arguments is over mechanics or poor attitude. You get inexperience tanks and healers, sure, but most of the time people give advice first. The other day I had a tank in the Vault who didn’t have Grit on at all and I kept taking aggro, he wasn’t doing anything about it. I figured he may have used a jump potion or something like that, so I just told him that he needs grit. He put it on. Problem solved. Guy I had in keeper of the lake who wasn’t tanking the dragons in the right place, I politely informed him where they need to go, he flipped out, was rude, said I don’t pay his sub and we kicked him. None of the changes would prevent either scenario.
The argument that we should just play a different DPS misses the crux of the complaints. It’s not about DPS, it’s about being bored, healing got buffed too much and homogenised too much, DPS became more important in the downtime and is how many healers stop being bored in their downtime. 2.0 healing was a way better balanced for that, as a Scholar I’ve been saying we need our heals nerfed. I came here as a 2.0 healer and it was fun. and how they’ve changed is not an evolution of how they played in 2.0. Plus DPS has always been a part of how healers play in FFXIV. That said, I am probably going to play a DPS because it’ll be ages before any meaningful changes are put in place and I don’t want to be bored. -
06-05-2019, 08:53 PMBeelhi
So what you're saying is that you enjoy doing nothing 70% of the time (or spam stone 70% of the time)?
Good for you...meanwhile, the rest of us want healers to be fun. -
06-05-2019, 09:14 PMNaoki34I support you in what you say, but good luck, because they are the disaffected who moan the most, even if it could be a minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
In general, people happy of change, do not spend their time crying on a forum.
And it's nice not to read people who are still unhappy even though they don't even test the changes, Thinking that they have some possible influence on the content of the extension. -
06-05-2019, 09:19 PMIanRwhy do you think most people are in favor of the change?Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoki34
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06-05-2019, 10:48 PMTruenQuote:
Originally Posted by Beelhi
I've lost all drive and motivation to play this game after 5.0. Honestly, I'm only lurking on the boards for a sign these changes will be reverted. I've already unsubbed, have 2 weeks left on the current script, and just can't be bothered to log in and sink more time into a job that's going to be ruined.
To those tolerating these changes, more power to ya and have fun. -
06-05-2019, 10:53 PMExiled_Tonberry
Liking healing doesn't mean you need to constantly and only heal, and if you don't it means you actually hate healing. I'm so tired of this faulty, ignorant argument.
Downtime is a thing, optimizing is a thing. There's simply not enough damage going out to warrant needing to heal all the time. And there never will be because SE is afraid to raise damage too high.
At the same time they're giving us these kits that try to bring us towards more healing. Can people really not see how this is a disaster in the making? At least we had the option before to do more stuff in all the downtime, now those options are being stripped away from us. -
06-06-2019, 01:16 AMTsubaki75
As others have said the healing kit is far too powerful for the amount of damage going out in instances, and as long as fights are scripted even in high end content you will never have to heal constantly and need something to do with downtime.
Honestly I would just get rid of ogcd heals all together and tweak the gcd heals to even it out, you can turn all of those ogcd's into damage and party support abilities to flesh out the toolkit. This would allow you to heal most of the time since you don't have healing bombs anymore while weaving in damage and buffs in between. -
06-06-2019, 02:19 AMfantasticmQuote:
Originally Posted by Urthdigger
I don't know about you guys, but I myself have always dreamed of becoming a glorified escort quest NPC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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06-06-2019, 02:43 AMKabooaI don't know about you, but I don't particularly find non-leveling dungeons fun or rewarding on any of the jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
They're chores. They scale so poorly that whether you're tank, DPS, or healer, they're boring. -
06-06-2019, 03:10 AMKnoahlWe can still dps though lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Lhttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/forums/659-Healer-Rolesordfurious
People don't find healing boring, they find Shadowbringers vision for healing regressive and ill thought out for the long term as no proactive play outside of shields/precasting heals.
It's the expansion which is the issue, even WoW healers are encouraged to dps these days (Mythic+ Keys, Catweaving, Fistweaving, Holy Avenger, Atonement.) so many fun ways to dps/debuff to augments your healing kit, such as dpsing restores mp, or nerfs the mobs damage on next hit.
Arguements will sadly continue, They should be catering to both sides of the community, the hardcore and the casual. This can be achieved via content balancing (instance difficulty) and not gutting a Job -
06-06-2019, 08:15 AMSanctifyCan I have your stuff? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Truen
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06-06-2019, 08:17 AMguardinhealers changes are the best. they are just the salty group of niche players that feels entitled because healers are rare. my most toxic runs always happen because of an elitist healer thinking we cannot go on without them and replacing them takes too long. these changes are good because now more people actually want to heal and it should help heal this superiority complex healers currently have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
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06-06-2019, 08:59 AMWaxSwWhile destroying any sense of fun, job identity and engaging complexity they have. Yeah those changes are great to let people try the job, not so good if you want them to stick to the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by guardin
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06-06-2019, 12:28 PMUrthdiggerIf you think designing a class so you're either bored and/or useless for most of the fight will get people to pick up healer over tank or DPS, I have a bridge to sell you.Quote:
Originally Posted by guardin
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06-06-2019, 01:23 PMAlfric
I have to say.. I don’t mind the changes to the healers as a whole.. but I think it’s irrational to think wveryone should be excited about them or just ‘switch classes’. I find myself wanting to wait to see how I feel until after the expac comes out but I do wholeheartedly understand why people are a bit upset. Especially Scholar mains. This has taken so much depth from your kit. You used to be able to take down packs of enemies in solo play but I wonder how it will work out now.. In an attempt to avoid ignorance, I do try to see both sides and I am sorry for anyone who feels like they won’t enjoy healing after SHB drops.
PS: I play mostly Astro so I can’t say I’m too affecred by the two-three button rotation but again I am sorry about the loss of those extra DPS spells ^^’ -
06-06-2019, 03:16 PMRyoutoshiI am in 100% agreement with your post and sentiments. I also plan to pick up taking with the new SCH since GNB looks fun and I didn't really like the other tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
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06-06-2019, 03:23 PMalthenawhm
Why would anyone be excited for losing DPS options? If you dont DPS you already dont use them, so what difference does it make to you if they are there or not?
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06-06-2019, 04:47 PMLadyKairiMy assumption is because they’re selfish. We can’t have different ways of playing our role, because they want to only heal. Screw anyone who doesnt want to play like that! Our NamE is HeaLer, So tHat Is aLl wE shOulD do! Can’t handle that other people don’t want them to be lazy, so let’s force everyone into one boring play style c: seems like they don’t want us to have fun, considering they’d get to keep how they play even if they gave more interesting healer damage rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by althenawhm
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06-07-2019, 03:44 AMElZombo
Can't miss DPS spells if you never used them, clever!
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06-07-2019, 09:22 AMWaterShieldNot everyone likes to AFK 80% of the time :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
Glad you're happy though <3 -
06-07-2019, 02:24 PMSighearth
Just so you know OP, IT IS possible to dps and make you tank live all without fighting the tank. Even in ultimate content mind you!
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06-07-2019, 03:40 PMPsionickittenWhile it is true that people happy with the changes won't come complaining to the forum, just look at the sheer voice of all the people who dislike it. "Testing changes" has nothing to do with it. We know how it plays to use one spammable DPS abilty and a single dot. during the healing downtime. Play the white mage without using your aero 3 or play any healer at low level. That's how it feels. Saying "you haven't tested it" is a cop out. To use the same logic you're using, you don't know us. You don't know that we don't know what it's like to press a single button over and over again. You can't know! You're not us! You can't feel our feelings or think our thoughts! You can't know what we like about this game and how that change affects us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoki34
I invite you to look at all the "Likes" of replies on this thread. Every pro-change one has a minimal amount. Every anti-change has a high amount. The majority don't like it.
Why would there ever be a hatred between tanks and healers? Well... it's been said about 10 times in this thread already that you only need about 1 heal every 20 seconds. So if "playing a healer is 100% exclusively about casting heals" what's probably happening here is tanks dislike your healing because you sit around for 20 seconds waiting for everyone to take enough damage to contribute a single spell the the encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordfurious
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06-07-2019, 04:04 PMMizAraiI'm sorry, what? We've been shown every spell and skill that will be in game when Shadowbringers launches. If SCH is lucky, they'll get some stuff back (sometime after launch) like what happened after Stormblood. WHM probably won't get Aero III back. And I highly doubt anything else that was taken will be given back. While a new expansion always brings change, the changes we're getting seem to only reflect Yoshida's personal opinion that healers should stand around bored for at least half the fight and only heal. Which is particularly annoying when you realize that he's crippling our solo play (stuff that has to happen to get through MSQ) while also making most of the jobs extremely boring. As for wanting a not pure DPS role, there are DPS that are more supportive (dancer being a huge example).Quote:
Originally Posted by EmeraldDawn
Either way we'll be getting more hairstyles and clothes, so you can be happy about that. Personally I want more of the furnishing contest winners for housing. (Curtains WHEN?) -
06-09-2019, 04:49 AMJollyy5
Gotta love how pretty much all of these ShB change defending threads are coming from heal bots who have never even glanced at EX/Savage content. :rolleyes:
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06-09-2019, 05:22 AMMelorieYou don't really need to glance at savage or ex content to see how playing a healer here can be a snoozefest though. Which is even more surprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5