With Shadowbringers, most roles will be reduced to only 6-7 role actions apiece. The odd man out here is Caster DPS, who are down to a mere 4 role actions (Addle, Lucid Dreaming, Swiftcast and Surecast).
Given the option to suggest new or the return of old role actions for Caster DPS to bring us up to the same number as other jobs, what actions would you suggest?
Just to start us off...
Dispel (2.5 sec cast): Removes a single beneficial status effect from target enemy.
Freecast (3 min CD): Allows the caster to continue moving without interrupting up to two spells with cast times. Spells may still be interrupted by jumping.
Duration: 8 sec
As an aside, I'd also like to propose that Drain be returned to the BLM kit, so as to give them a self-sustainability option outside grouped content. The trade of damage for self-healing would be more than enough to keep from overshadowing healers.
New Caster Role Actions?
Printable View
-
06-05-2019, 09:48 AMArchwizardNew Caster Role Actions?
-
06-05-2019, 09:52 AMKurando
General census seems to be returning Erase and Apocastasis if anything. The other suggested two would be seldom used as either they wouldn't be required (because target is immune) or current toolkits would find them a degree unnecessary (casters may already have mobility options to utilize).
-
06-05-2019, 10:15 AMSeraph522Agreed; Erase and Apocatastasis would be far better options. As far as I'm aware, FFXIV hasn't had dispel-able buffs on enemies for a long time, so they'd need to go in and change current buffs for that purpose (which would be a lot of work just to add another role action), and all Caster DPS currently have plenty of mobility options in their toolkit, whether it's Swiftcast or job-specific abilities (Dreadwyrm Trance and Ruin II/IV for SMN, Triplecast for BLM, Dualcast for RDM). As for Drain, its self-sustain was nigh-on useless even in solo content, considering the pathetic amount of damage it dealt and the incredibly high MP cost. They'd need to buff its damage and self-heal output, which would require extensive balancing and really wouldn't be worth it. Not to mention I've never really felt the need for Drain in solo content so long as one is properly geared up and knows their rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
-
06-05-2019, 10:27 AMArchwizardTo be honest, I can understand the removal of Erase and Apocatastasis though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Erase basically stepped on the toes of healers, making the group's caster DPS the priority at doing their job for them.
Meanwhile, Apocatastasis was really only used by min-maxers, particularly in the highest tiers of content. Some skills should be available to more casual players, given that they far outnumber Savage-tier Static raiders; if anything that's likely why it was one of the first skills on the chopping block.
I'd like to see casters get something on par with the stuns and interrupts available to physical DPS, and if we had Dispel then it would open up the encounter designers to be able to add mechanics that can be dispelled, much like I expect they'll be doing with Interrupts next expansion.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be buffed to be a self-sustain option, much like I believe that Physick should also be usable on Int for SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph522
What's so "extensive" about increasing the healing percentage of a skill available to one job? They could literally do that in hotfixes. They wouldn't even need to touch the damage, just up the drain rate. -
06-05-2019, 11:18 AMRongwayYou say, "stepped on the toes of healers"; I say "saved healers from spending a GCD on Esuna".Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
The problem with Erase was never that it was a cleanse action on DD jobs. BRD has Paean, which is a cleanse action on a DD job. The problem with Erase was that it was specifically limited to DoTs. This made it useless in most fights. However, it is/was quite useful for things like covering people's mistakes in alliance raids (namely, mistakes that resulted in Bleed effects). Not only could it save a healer a GCD in such a case, but it is/was fast enough to prevent deaths. -
06-05-2019, 12:38 PMValavaern
Apocatastasis needs to come back, full stop.
If Erase came back, I'd want it to affect everything Esuna does, and preferably usable on ourselves.
Other than that, I'd like to see Manaward taken off of BLM and made in a Role action.
The Devs are going for heavier emphasis on self-management of MP, but if that winds up crashing and burning (which it will likely if they don't increase the amount of MP you have after being raised), then I can see casters getting Manashift back. -
06-05-2019, 01:54 PMShurrikhanAren't those one and the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
His DoT cleanse is free. Yours costs 250 potency. So...
No. Unless more DoTs need to be cleansed than your casters can take of, you absolutely should not touch your cleanse. It thus feels less like a healer duty than a caster/Bard duty.Quote:
Would you like to Cleanse?
For a healer to even compete with its reliability given by Erase's immediateness they'd need to then have an instant-cast, if not oGCD, Cleanse.
Personally, I don't think that would have been a huge issue. Give healers two charges each on a one-minute CD. When present, Esuna is an Ability, thus an instant-cast oGCD. When they're not, it's a 1-second cast Spell. But, as things stood, casters' Erase definitely did step on healers' toes in terms of role duty/identity when the cleanse-able in question was a DoT. I don't personally care much about that, but it does seem simple, objective fact to me.
And let's not pretend that Bard is "just another DD job". Its entire original identity was built around support.
I think the only Role Action ability I'd actually miss is Manashift, though I'd have been fine with that turning into a purely RDM utility.
We've already made enmity a non-issue, so why keep a two-minute CD to hit on CD to "manage" it? Just further affect enmity generation, such as by basing it on the position (front > flank > rear) and range of each attack (not fully stacking, so ranged can still kite if they wish).
The same could of course be done with Lucid Dreaming, just raising the MP gained per tick (or better yet, GCD) to provide an extra 45-50% of total MP per 2 minutes. Compensate Astrologian for the loss of Celestial Opposition impact and raise the amount of MP we resurrect with. Done.
Return Erase and buff it if there's actually stuff remaining to healers despite it. Return Mana Shift. Replace Drain with Necrogenesis (Bloodbath, but for magic damage; shorter and stronger). Add Lethargy (Ability-based Heavy). Kill the two-minute "hit on refresh" CDs.
And then Verraise and Vercure off RDM and Devotion and Summon Titan Egi off SMN? No Role but tanks have maximum eHP-increasing actions. Leave that level of capacity, and BLM, alone, unless you're willing to take whatever balancing penalties that unique survivability advantage would cost you and would be as willing to see your own job lose ownership over its tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valavaern
-
06-05-2019, 04:29 PMCorbinDallasBLMs already lost Apoc, leave Manaward alone, or give us Embolden/Verraise/insertcoreRDMabilityQuote:
Originally Posted by Valavaern
-
06-05-2019, 07:22 PMSaberMaxwell
Would be nice if RDM had some survival utility they didn't have to sacrifice a gcd to use. But *shrug*
-
06-05-2019, 09:27 PMZyneste
The only thing I want on RDM is to keep Apoc and erase. If they consider erase too weak to keep just buff it to 300~400 potency and able to be used on self to mirror Second Wind [all other jobs have unique defensive/healing utility, namely for their own survival, at no real dps cost on top of the role action second wind.] Could make it more powerful towards it intended use by simply making it 100% crit when it cleanses a DoT. [Copy paste from another thread]
Devs, can Casters please have 6 role skills like the other roles?
Made a thread similar to this too q.q
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
-
06-08-2019, 10:56 AMArchwizardI think it's more a matter of just wanting casters in general to have an "Oh Shit" button for when the boss is about to explode the arena and kill all of the squishies. I would assume in this hypothetical that BLM would be compensated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Granting, with Titan-Egi getting reworked from tanking to providing survivability to the caster, the only job that really has that issue is...
... Yeah, that. In which case, just give RDM a tool of its own ("En Garde", anyone?), leave Manaward where it is and we don't have to worry about SMN becoming a caster tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
To be honest, I'd rather just give BLM a buffed version of Drain. If Manaward already provides BLM with snap survivability then it shouldn't use another cooldown to heal back up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I'm totally fine with BLM sacrificing DPS in order to keep itself alive -- that's kinda the point of it being the archetypal squishy mage. -
06-08-2019, 11:55 AMShurrikhanBut literally no role but Tanks has this at present. Neither Second Wind nor Bloodbath increase maximum eHP. They cannot protect against one-shots. We'd just end up with "kill all the squishies... except casters". That's why I mentioned Necrogenesis. That has balanced precedent. An HP shield does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
On the offhand chance you'd actually use Titan Egi just to survive something as SMN, you'd still be losing not only your RDM to burst raid damage, but also your Bard, Machinist, Dancer, DRG, your NIN if the damage is magical, and likely your SAM and MNK as well. RDM would not be the only DPS without significant max eHP increase; that is literally unique to BLM at present. So don't try to pass that off as a Caster-vs-Everyone-Else disparity. It is a tool unique to ONE job. Only two (soon three, though clunky and costly) other DPS even have any personal anti-magic mitigation whatsoever. -
06-08-2019, 04:36 PMArchwizard
For the record, I was only offering my interpretation of Valavaern's intent, not advocating it. In fact, I partly rebutted it -- "leave Manaward alone, give RDM its own mitigation tool."
I mean of all casters, you'd think the one to get a damage barrier would be the one that constantly runs into most enemies' blood circles.
Not to undercut your point, but to my knowledge all of the jobs you listed except DRG and RDM have either Oh Shit buttons or mitigation effects of their own (DRG uniquely being the one to have personal vulnerability). -
06-08-2019, 06:53 PMShurrikhanDRG, RDM, MCH, BRD, and DNC have no self-mitigation. NIN has no self-mitigation against 99% of raid-wide attacks. MNK and SAM each have merely 10% mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Remember, you must already give up your DPS stance and survive initially to receive the added mitigation of Riddle of Earth -- and then you have to continue to give up your DPS stance just to benefit from it, along with likely your ability to maintain GL, the core of your entire means of maintaining decent damage; that's hardly an "Oh Shit" button.
More specifically...- 10% mitigation is FAR less valuable than a 30% HP shield. One's as good as a DRK's self-cast TBN; the other is unlikely ever to save you from an attack would otherwise kill you.
- The closest equivalent to BLM's Manaward is Ninja's Shadeshift, except Shadeshift only affects Physical Damage and thus almost never affects any damage except standing in a boss's cleave, and for does so 33% less often and for 33% less HP. BLM's Manaward is uniquely powerful.
That's fair, I guess, though I've literally never felt safer on a caster, including a healer, than when on RDM as is. Heck, though I understand the compaints, I've never even had an issue with Disengage. Just jump into Suzaku's hole slightly and fully enter Kefka's/Omega's hitbox before using it and you're always safe. I've always used it quite nearly on CD, and have yet to yeet myself off an edge even once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
No, I suspect that the only thing that's going to help in those situations is a mid-range instant-cast like Reprise that doesn't break melee combos, while the melee combos themselves cost slightly less -- allowing us to bank a Reprisal into among the melee combo if we get forced out of melee range briefly. That, or you've already used Reprise beforehand to time your melee combo to a period where no such AoE would appear... In either case, the solution isn't to give a RDM a survival cooldown strong enough mistakes or else you essentially end up giving a cooldown mean only to cheese certain mechanics, for what decent RDM would make those mistakes to begin with?
No, they can't. That's absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
SAM's lasts for 3 seconds and only lasts until the next hit taken. How is that a large period?
MNK's cannot be kept up, period, without sacrificing its DPS stance.
Only by around 7% to 10%, though. That's a far cry from the ~19% HP increase that a Monk or SAM would need to contest a Manaward with their respective, far more costly or far less reliable mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
While I understand that they may want RDM to seem more of the willowy, speedy caster, and thus its HP ought to be of no impact, I could also understand their being brought up to the HP/ilvl of, say, Ninja.
But, again, Second Wind is approximately a 15% heal on a 120-second cooldown. Manaward is a 30% shield on a 90-second cooldown. Manaward is vastly superior in every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste
Why should one role have a skill that uniquely helps to survive against one-shots and in a single ability is practically stronger than any of the survival tools among all other roles but tanks, combined? Why? Why would you create something unbalanced? Am I crazy here for playing more than just casters, and thus looking more broadly than at their role alone, or something? -
06-08-2019, 11:03 PMZynesteJust a small nitpick going into 5.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...51/unknown.png
Melee DPS do also typically have higher HP/Defense [mages get the higher MDefense but still have much lower HP. Mages will also not be able to meld VIT in 5.0]
I'm still on the line where I really just want to keep our current defensive tools. Erase at the moment is a bit underwhelming to most people so a change to it to make it a sort of second wind for the self or a party member would really keep it relevant to most people. [Id take it as is though.] 300 Potency heal every 90 seconds with a cleanse for the casters vs a 500 potency heal every 120 seconds for the Physical DPS [TBH the CD could be lower]. Apocastasis, I'd really like to keep as well, but it doesn't really need any adjustments to be useful and its % mitigation could honestly be reduced if its an issue.
I don't want it to be a RDM exclusive because I think that defensive utility like that should be shared among the role, like second wind is. -
06-09-2019, 08:31 AMArchwizardSAM and MNK's 10% mitigation skills can be kept up for large periods, which is a substantial EHP buff over the entire encounter rather than small periods (and even with giving up DPS to maintain it, it's no different from the expected scenario with Titan-Egi).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
BRD, MCH and DNC, meanwhile, can extend similar 10% mitigation effects to the entire party through Troubadour, Tactician and Shield Samba, which can often be the difference between life and death for a lot of AoEs.
As Zyneste pointed out, NIN's Shade Shift no longer is limited to Physical effects in ShB, giving the same effective EHP as Manaward.
And as he also points out, Melee have higher HP as a whole than Casters, which highlights a particular weakness of RDM, the hybrid melee-caster.
I think whatever defensive skill RDM has should play to its particular strengths and weaknesses. That is to say, should play into the fact that it regularly enters melee range of the target for brief periods, which is the period where it's most vulnerable but also playing the most as another role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyneste