For the last 6 years healers and tanks in xiv have done as much as they can to minimize doing what lost them damage and in shadowbringers SE has embraced tank damage with things like removal of aggro combos and no damage penalty when in tank stance while completely rejecting healer dps with the removal of our dps options. Even if SE were to make healers gcd heal more i would not call that interesting since healing tools in xiv are incredibly basic and boring and it would strip away what has made XIV healing interesting which has been the dance between trying to keep people alive while maintaining our damage.
Healer design in Shadowbringers
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06-03-2019, 04:51 AMtikiwikiHealer design in Shadowbringers
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06-03-2019, 05:12 AMWaxSw
Seems like SE's idea of "balanced" healers is dumbed them to the absurd and make every of them seem very similar if not identical, which is very sad since what they showed us is everything but the design of an appealing and fun job. I dont know other people but since the reveal of the skills my hype has gone from 100 to 0.
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06-03-2019, 05:20 AMRisvertasashi
SE removed cleric stance (the real one that was actually a stance) before tank stances.
But on healing I disagree. What makes healing boring outside of savage content is pushing your DPS button 10 or 20 times for each heal button. We have these heal tools but unless you do the hardcore raids, little reason to use most of them. -
06-03-2019, 05:22 AMtikiwikiwhich is why id like simple rotations like tanks have or more interesting healing skills as it stands were trading one spam for anotherQuote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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06-03-2019, 06:06 AMGemina
SCH had the closest to a DPS rotation. There were no procs, but there was always that miasma+bio into Bane that pretty much worked the same way. It was a 1-2-3. On bosses I typically came in with Ruin 2>Cleric Stance+Chain>Miasma II>Bio+Shadow Flare>Broil 2>Ruin 2+Energy Drain. It felt like a true opener. Just a bit shorter and not as high of a consequence for screwing it up. It felt good though, and when I think about what has been taken from SCH, look at what it does to that opener.
AST DPS is basically the same, and when they brought up "filling in the gaps", you'd think AST could probably get an AoE DoT. WHM lost Aero 3 and that's it. However, they got Mysery. SCH though...
The pruning of DPS skills is one of many problems. They added to the healer issues by doing this. We'll have to see what the healing requirements are like, which is fine. But I don't think they can shift it so drastically that warrants the removal of DPS skills. Balance is still going to be a problem because the meta is still going to favor SCH/AST because each of them can increase rDPS.
You guys are going to see me continuously bring this up, so apologies in advance, but healers being able to increase rDPS is the thorn-in-the-ass problem to healer balance. They either all need it, or none of them. And this damn Chain and Balance keeps SCH and AST locked in. It's an evil symbiote that has taken over our very identity as healers and needs be purged from us forever. -
06-03-2019, 06:32 AMSaefinnYou're gonna keep saying it, but you're not wrong. The best solution I think would to give WHM the ability to increase DPS here, because I see giving none of them it would upset Astrologians. I don't think the players in the raid or dungeon care how the job heals, as long as it keeps them alive. They tend to care which one is going to help push the most damage. So healing wise, there shouldn't be a worry of balance as much, as long as none of them are gimped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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06-03-2019, 06:39 AMMintnHoneyGood news, though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
now everyone can enjoy the bounty of Cleric stance, thanks to Astrologian's Deck of Many Clerics! -
06-03-2019, 07:36 AMElZombo"Wonder what i'll get next, i hope its half a balance card...IT IS HALF A BALANCE CARD....joy"Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
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06-03-2019, 07:38 AMKabooa
Tanks get overly simplified so that DPS and threat are one and the same.
"Good job SE"
Healers get overly simplified so that DPS is streamlined for when you don't have to heal.
"Wtf SE" -
06-03-2019, 07:43 AMShalan
We finally got an interview with some healer focused questions. Not much, and there are many unanswered questions, but it's the most we've gotten so far.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...uMgaL704g/edit
Healer oriented bit starts page 4 of the document.
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Yoshida: We believe trying to heal as little as possible and DPSing instead isn’t what a Healers role should be.
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06-03-2019, 08:20 AMHustensaftThey design a healer as a healer with nothing to heal...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
... unless they magically decided to doublee or triple outgoing group damage -
06-03-2019, 08:21 AMDiznypKCThat definitely wasn’t much of an answer at all, at least for what we really want to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
So they wanted to redefine the role of the healer? That needs to be defined in the combat encounter designs, and not the jobs’ kit. Maybe there will be some more incoming damage but I doubt it will be enough to justify these changes. We’re going to be bored AF. -
06-03-2019, 08:36 AMCeasaria
These questions are unfortunetely not helpful at all.
It's like they are welcoming these changes, so Yoshida must think he did a good job. -
06-03-2019, 08:46 AMShalan
I agree, they're not helpful.
But so far I think that interview is the only one with questions asked about healers. If you look at the other interviews (which I'll put under this post if you're interested) there weren't any healer oriented questions asked at all. Another outright asks a question and states "...setting aside healers..." and never returns to healers.
This is all we have so far as official statements on their direction, so I figured it'd be nice to share,
4gamer's Shadowbringers Media Tour Interview
^"...setting aside healers..." interview
Famitsu's Shadowbringers Media Tour Interview about Job Changes and the Trust System
Dengeki's Shadowbringers Media Tour Interview
The lack of questions and any healer mains at the Media Tour really has me bummed. Feels like this role is being purposefully ignored sometimes. -
06-03-2019, 09:06 AMDeceptus
I find it funny that the attitude of "If you want to DPS play a DPS!" doesn't apply to tanks yet somehow does apply to healers.
Same. I've noticed a distinct lack of healer questions in almost every interview. So either no one is asking questions because no one they've given interviews to plays a healer (SE's fault for not checking their interviewers). Or a more conspiratorial option, that they're asking interviewers to not talk about healers right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
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06-03-2019, 09:07 AMWaxSwI honestly love this "[...]They use their defensive buffs including their invuln when they need to, and while performing their tank duties, they also want to do as much DPS as possible. This should undoubtedly be part of their motivation", So tanks are allowed to DPS if they want while performing their tank duties but healers can't or what? What should we do once the party doesn't need healing? Get bored to death smashing 1 button?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
This triggers me too much, is like he was saying "Hey tanks/dps have fun and optimize your playstyle, you healers can watch them enjoy the game" -
06-03-2019, 10:03 AMRisvertasashiReading the full response to that - I think if SE really wants to do that, they need to seriously up the incoming damage even if "casual" content like dungeons, alliance raids, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
I very much doubt SE will but... come on, how they can not see that healers DPSing is the natural outcome of extremely low healing requirements... -
06-03-2019, 10:38 AMDeceptusBecause it's becoming more and more apparent that SE has no idea how healers play or what to do with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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06-03-2019, 10:56 AMtikiwikii thought for awhile the fun dance they achieved may have been on accident at this point i feel pretty convinced on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
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06-03-2019, 04:22 PMTruenThis is Yoshi's fault. Under his leadership the push to keep trimming down jobs and simplifying them will continue in future updates too. Just listen to the man speak. If there's not a change in SE leadership this is only going to get worse. Tanks and/or DPS are next. They're going to get the same treatment healers just got. Eventually every class is going to be cut-down to the point to where AI can play the job you do just as well as you do it...ie: The Trust System.Quote:
Originally Posted by tikiwiki
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06-03-2019, 06:08 PMKDSilverI think we all agree with that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalan
But if Yoshida is aware of that, he also should know that if we healers ends up dpsing more than healing, this isn't because we wanted to be green dps, even though dpsing as a healer felt engaging, but because of the low healing requirement through the whole content. So they has to make us heal instead and fix the problem at the source. Until the day they realize that, it'll be the same over and over. -
06-03-2019, 08:57 PMSaefinn
I mean removing the DPS doesn’t resolve the alleged problem of healers DPSing, because we will need to be able to DPS respectably outside of group content. If the game system remains the same then we will just be doing less in our down time. Instead make the healing more engaging and prevalent in content so they have less downtime and then you will find your healers are DPSing less. The issue with removing the DPS is, even if the healing is going to be more prevalent in a Shadowbringers, it’s going to be boring as hell for everything it before that content. And of course the healing still needs to be more engaging if it is more prevalent.