Thre important changes please to Frontlines to stop an RNG slaughter-fest

First of all, I am by no means a hardcore PvPer, only do some Frontlines occasionally.

But by now I have see three things happen over and over... to a degree that turns me away from PvP entirely.

a) Extremely unskilled players end up in the same party and instance as extremely skilled players, turning the first into cannon fodder for enemy teams, which is a giant frustration if you are lumped in a party/alliance with a lot of the cannon fodder, but also not great for those who are nothing but just... fodder.

b) Party/alliance composition, oh how we are in RNGsus hands. If you end up in a PUG party where no one has healers leveled sufficiently? While the other teams have enough healers to keep them up? You are dead dead dead, prepare for 3rd place as you get slaughtered. Your own skills, team coordination mean little to NOTHING then.

c) Can we talk about the elephant in the room, premades? If I see a premade mowing across the map of Frontlines, slaughtering and bullying naturally less-coordinated (and usually less skilled) PUGs like a well oiled machine, that is not decent, fair PvP...

... that is a nasty slaughter-fest creating more frustration for all but the handful of premades out there who feed on all the other PvPers and laugh their heads off about this near-exploit in the system for easy victories. And yes, in my experience it is rare to the extreme to see more than one premade on a map, IMO it really borders on an exploit (even if not against ToS of course) how they mostly seem to queue during times when it is 8v8v8, where they know they will reign supreme.

All of that together has turned Frontlines into something nasty, ugly, and sucking out whatever fun was once in there. No one would cheer if highly trained knights or samurai of a well-disciplined and experienced, tight-knit unit are given a permanent opportunity to slaughter feebly experienced, randomly thrown together peasants for gain and glory (is that actually glory?), but that is what it looks like by now when you allow experienced premades into PUG maps.

I just came out of such an instance, where we PUGs could just give the one premade a wide berth, while they chased and bullied us across the map, and most of my party members shared the same sentiment here:

Don't allow premades onto the same maps as PUGs. Either you get a map only of premades, or only of PUGs, no mix-matching.

And I say this as someone who likes to queue with friends, including into PvP, but I rather give up that, than seeing the current state continue.

Also please at least TRY to rank people according to PvP skill and through it form according parties and maps so people can learn at their own skill level and get better (rather than get conditioned to be nothing but canon fodder, going in only for the 3rd place participation reward) -- because it is obvious that right now that is not happening, going by the results.

And don't allow parties to happen without anyone queued in as a healer, to at least a little bit alleviate the "Oh joy we have zero healers, we are so dead."

Of course you can now say, "Well if you don't like it then don't do PvP." And if things don't change that's what I am gonna do. But I still care enough to point out that by this kind of logic the quality of all content can be allowed to slowly degenerate if there are flaws in the system, until it becomes near-dead content, or in the case of PvP either something done only by premades and newbies who leave after a couple of frustrating experiences, or only participate for the 3rd place wolfmarks, and don't give a hoot about the quality of the match. Is that what we want here...?

(And yes, I have seen plenty of comments in Frontlines by now of people saying essentially "I don't care, win or lose, I get my participation reward, screw PvP, I just want the glam/hairstyle/minion/whatever." Baaaad indicator of where Frontlines is headed these days...)

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Originally Posted by Kisama

c) Premades make up a decent portion of people queueing at any given time. Without them, queue times would suffer. The people that queue in premades aren't going to solo queue because playing with bots and bad players is a miserable experience. Its really a win-win when you look at it. Separating the queues would hurt queue times all around.

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How exactly is it an improvement by making the experience for everyone else a misery? During the day with 72man premades are tolerable at best, but in the evening they kill queues immediately in 8v8v8, because once you "experienced" a premade, you rather call it a day.

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As you said, if you don't like it, don't do pvp. It isn't content for everybody.

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This attitude is what kills PVP. If you kill the fun even for lower skilled/less experienced you constantly shrinking the player pool.

Not everyone enters PvP with the same mindset. Some people want to win, some people just want to get their daily over with, some people just want to farm for glam.

The problem is that there aren't enough people playing the game that are serious about PvP because, quite frankly, it isn't very good.

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Originally Posted by Kisama

Well to be fair, 9 button pvp is in itself miserable. We're all having a bad time playing it. We're just having slightly more fun than you are.

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Speaking right out of my heart.

I myself mostly go in with Friends from other Servers. It IS kinda unfair TBH.... it really feels like you raid some poor villagers in some cases. That said: i usually would advise you to find a premade yourself but i know that no one queues into PF to find a bunch or pvp players. Joining a pvp Discord might help better in that case, the only problem is to find an ACTIVE pvp Discord.

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Originally Posted by Kisama

Well to be fair, 9 button pvp is in itself miserable. We're all having a bad time playing it. We're just having slightly more fun than you are.

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I can only repeat myself, this selfish attitude is what kills PVP. You can use the chance of the current hype and teach people about PVP or you can only blame yourself if it's soon dead again, because people don't like to be used as canon fodder.
Maybe you should take your own advice, if the 9 buttons make you miserable and "if you don't like it, don't do pvp. It isn't content for everybody", but it's no reason to spread your own misery onto others.

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Originally Posted by Kisama

Yeah, its definitely not the plethora of bots that Square refuses to do anything about...

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So instead of exercising a little self criticism, you're just deflecting the blame to others?
I'm only going to repeat myself here, so no further comment.

PVP isn't supposed to be a "feels good" time where everyone wins. That's not PVP.

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Originally Posted by Keoeson

if the 9 buttons make you miserable and if you don't like it, don't do pvp.

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The Problem is : Some Players coming from other Games love PvP. I myself played Aion for Years (even reached Great General as a PvP Rank) wich is basically a fulltime PvP Game. No matter where you go, you could be attacked any second. Sadly, the Game was destroyed (pay2win, the Game is almost dead by now) by the publishers in the EU and so i went to find another Game. I found FFXIV just as Heavensward started and i loved the PvP even though there is still no open pvp and now will never have open pvp thanks to the 4.X changes.

So then, are we supposed to switch Games or even pay 2 subs for 2 different Games just to play PvP in another Game? No. We just "make the Best" out of what is left.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

The Problem is : Some Players coming from other Games love PvP.

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It depends on what kind of PVP you're expecting. FFXIV generally tries to keep the skill gap low, so it can be enjoyed by a majority of players. Deep mechanics with a big skill gap are usually a big barrier of entry for new players, but can be satisfying for hardcore players.
It seems some people think you can only have fun by winning, but I don't think modes like frontlines are designed for that. It might be alien concept for some here, but you can also have fun without winning as long as you preserve the illusion that you could have won. This way you stay motivated and queue again and maybe next time you get a better alliance or better node spawn rng. You will always have a certain percentage which will be bad at this, but why should they not have a chance at enjoying this? On the other hand keep players motivated and you'll increase the pool of players who gradually get better at this. This may not the type of PVP you want, but it's what we got. Premades are one element that throw a wrench into that system and demotivate everyone but the most hardcore players.

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We just "make the Best" out of what is left.

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Maybe the best for you is to lobby SE for separate PVP worlds, but by alienating other players you'll only go back to long queue times, because nobody wants to play with you.

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Originally Posted by Keoeson

but by alienating other players you'll only go back to long queue times

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I dont see any issues here TBH. Queues are opening sometimes until 3-4 am with a 5 minute Wait in Primetime.
Yes i prefered the more skillrequiring PvP, i miss it very much and i kinda have to smile every time someone brags about making Top 100 in the Feast.... after Season 4. (Yes i know its a FL topic.. but still.)

"PVP isn't supposed to be a "feels good" time where everyone wins. That's not PVP." This might be the biggest nonsense Ive ever read in the context of this discussion.

i'm getting drunk off of all this whinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne.

They have a point, you clearly see the premades burn through all mixed parties. IF someone hasnt played heal in ages or barely leveled em, they might be better of stay dps. i might be able to do both, you might be too, but there are plenty who just cant... id take an good dps over an terrible heal anytime. And its unfair using TS against randoms. you literally see their movement patterns and all...

Dont get me wrong, I see why its fun but there should be [Mixed] and [Premade] ques for all, with maybe allowing up to 3 ppl together for mixed. Or else its literally feeding sheeps to wolfs.

There is only ONE pre made CWLS on Crystal DC for pvp (Mint Condition), stop being a crybaby.
There's no need to split ques.

Regardless of what SE decides to do or not do, you should probably ask what you yourself can do. For starters, it helps to remember that "premades" aren't some unbeatable, unfair, exclusive exploit. It's just a group of like-minded people playing together. So why not just do the same? Make your own linkshell with people you think are good. Everyone in a premade started out solo-queueing anyway. They got better and learned the game despite playing with a bunch of uncoordinated strangers.

If you're gonna think of your losses as some random roll of the dice, at the very least start thinking of ways to incrementally swing the odds in your favor.

There will be losers in PvP simply by design. Some folks decided they were tired of losing and they improved themselves and made a group afterwards.

What's stopping everyone else from doing the same? Put in the work then groups will invite you. If you aren't very good then you can't be expected to be invited into premades with good players.

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Originally Posted by Kisama

Well to be fair, 9 button pvp is in itself miserable. We're all having a bad time playing it. We're just having slightly more fun than you are.

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LMAO ain't this the truth. I haven't PVP'd since they introduced this "streamlined" garbage in Stormblood.

You guys know you can make a premade to fight a premade? Why punish us for playing with friends? This is still an MMO right? Why divide the queue even more? You see someone tired of getting beat too? Join them.

Exactly, OP just because its a "premade" it isn't any advantage tbh, its not like they get some sort of special ability to use during the match that makes it unfair.
Ya no.

- Premades don't "Run back to base for no reason" once mid is cleared, they don't "split up", they focus on PVP more then PvE objectives. PvE is nothing but a distraction in most 24s aside from seize "until" your group has fever. If your group is focused on PVE objectives in PVP, and don't have fever yet, they're doing it wrong.

- If your group is "ever" sitting still or defending, you're doing it wrong. Don't ever sit still. aka "Defend node" is the worst thing you can allow someone to get away with saying and following.
- When someone says "don't chase" or "Dont feed" They are STILL doing it wrong. You chase as a group, you get that fever ASAP. You don't "Feed" you GET fed, and if nothing is coming at you, you chase down your food. Wolves, not sheep. SO much of what people scream to be doing is in fact the opposite of what should be happening. Next time someone tells you not to chase, I invite you to ask if they need a tampax. While to a great degree you should be chasing SMARTLY, not blindly dumb and bullheaded, by all means, you should absolutely still be chasing, there is just a proper way to do it. The proper time for it is "always" though.

- Source ^? The premade that hasn't lost a 24 in months.

- The real winners of the match are the groups that hold FEVER. Not the "Cry and get back to base to do nothing" groups. Remember that the first group to get fever wins, if you're sitting there doing nothing, while the other team is farming to get fever, you are done for. There is little you'll be able to do to kill them at that point, even if you try to 16 vs 8 them, the 8 will win if they have alot of fever'd melee.

- Fever groups typically contain 5 melee and 3 heals or 5 melee 2 heals 1 warrior (no darks or paladins, its for war holmgang to lock down healers) And the top tier premades will have 5/6 ninjas available at any given time on top of it. Its called the melee death ball and it controls everything in the match once they get fever. Strategy to win should be focused on how to get fever first before the other 2 groups, not kill nodes or whatever else faster because you'll just do the same dmg as the other groups for the same amount of points. Which is why in shatter for example if you see an "Entire" group hitting ppl and not the big ice, "they" end up winning, not the scrubs hitting the big ice being good little PVE'ers and losing. (In other words you simply defend the big ice by PVP'ing, only hitting it once everyone around it is dead) If your group can't do that fast enough then group is bad.

---- A tip to start when you form a premade, or even just a few friends in a party
- Do NOT include ranged DPS physical nor magical in your premades, and no RDM either. Any melee dps will do, but ninja is highly prefered. 1, maybe 2 off job carries tops if its friends can work, preferred # is 0 ranged though. Melee has a 15% buff, if you have 6 of them thats 90% more damage focused onto 1 healer, that healer will NOT live longer then 2 seconds (Literally 2 seconds yes)

- If your friends won't job change, ask them to, if they refuse to play PVP appropriate roles for the strategy, then dont play pvp with them. (Topic is about winning after all, not making friends)

- Mark your targets with a /mk attack Macro, maybe even have a nice soothing sound when you do it. Healers should be marked first. And play the push in / pull out game a little bit if needed, if you can bum rush the healer great but its not always viable. Push and pull until it is and their party is a bit scrambled. This happens quickly, usually only takes 10-15 seconds of push / pulling out to scamble them enough for all melees to rush the healer.

- Also mark "one" person in your party for everyone to follow, maybe with a square, and tell everyone to follow the square etc, make sure its someone that takes everything in this post into account. You won't get anywhere if everyone decides they wanna lead, this takes you different directions. (This is really just for PUG groups, its not needed after you get a good group formed up)

- Everything above can be coordinated within any random pug group as well, just lay out the plan to focus on gaining fever first before the match starts. If they follow the plan great, if they don't, yes you will lose, because it takes all 7 other people to be on the same page for it to work. Just look at who in the group followed the plan, and invite them to a party.

- Anyone that prefers to go solo and split in your group of 8 in a 24 match is clearly not someone you'll be inviting to a party, even if only 1 of the other 7 follow you, invite the 1 to your party, look for more slowly, and discuss making a cwls after a few rounds if it goes good.

- Macros are your friend. NEVER EVER, use map markers in macros, EVER. You will be observed as a noobie that doesn't know what they're doing. Use clear and concise directions (N W S E etc) in your macro, perhaps with an "appropriate" sound effect. And for gods sake do NOT spam it. Hit it once, if ppl follow it fine, if not, it is what it is. Just make sure your own people and party follow it, or consider replacing them.
- Keep your macros for your premade /Party only, for gods sake do not /alliance use them.

- If you're waiting for someone else to take initiative, and start a party or a cwls, or even just lead with macros for your party because "You don't feel like it", IT WONT EVER HAPPEN. So just do it yourself.

- Like to re-iterate, ignore cry babies that scream "BASE". You need a base, so take the enemies, don't place focus on your own. Go get kills while holding someone elses base in secure. And yes, until you have 8 people on the same page this will be frustrating because if just 1 person cries like a girl to come back to base, if even ONLY 1 other person listens to the crybaby, your raid now has only 6 people, and will most likely end badly.

- 95% of the "Alliance" Leaders spread bad objectives and the loudest ones tend to have little more then 5 matches ever completed in their entire 14 career. I.E. think-they-know-it-alls. (They know nothing jon snow) Once in a cwls practice ignoring 100% of what the alliance loud mouths are saying, they can either get on board and follow your group or lose can gtfo. Don't let inexperienced loud mouths control your premade once you get it going. Yes they'll get pissed and yes its hilarious, because these little kids that think they can tell 24 ppl what to do incorrectly get hot headed, just ignore them and keep doing with your party what you normally do as a party. And when the alliance is 500 points ahead and the bad leads try to self proclaim themselves as the reason why, have yourself a little chuckle.

- Most importantly nothing stated above is out of reach to be done in a PUG group either, premade isn't needed, learning and ignoring bad leadership is. While being on the same page is very important, enabling a bad and loud alliance lead is much much worse. Don't ever enable them, just continue to ignore them, have fun, and win with your group once formed.

- Not taking all of the above into account when PVPing will just keep you at the losing end of matches be it a PUG or a premade.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

There will be losers in PvP simply by design. Some folks decided they were tired of losing and they improved themselves and made a group afterwards.

What's stopping everyone else from doing the same? Put in the work then groups will invite you. If you aren't very good then you can't be expected to be invited into premades with good players.

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Why should I have to join a party to "enjoy" pvp? I just got out of a frontline match, where as usual one party dominated the map. One person also had the first time achievement and thus got great first impression of what to expect from pvp. On a Saturday during the day there are not enough people queueing for a large frontline match.
Well, I'm out, I got the garo achievements. Keep telling yourself that there's no problem with premades and enjoy the long queue times...

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Originally Posted by Kisama

Winning is cool, but tryharding isn't. While melee does theoretically put out more damage than a ranged can, there aren't many players out there that actually can do that. Other than that, solid post.

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Its actually for burst abuse. Melee now gets a 15% buff, if you have 6 stacking on one healer theres nothing that can be done about it even if the enemy team has four/five healers. Ranged cannot do the same, it will lack the 90% additional damage. (our cwls melee averages 400-600k dps with a high of 700, ranged will never do that)

Thats honestly the most important part in the post in fact. Absolutely positiviely never, No ranged. The rest is great practice but a melee ball decides everything.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

The Problem is : Some Players coming from other Games love PvP. I myself played Aion for Years (even reached Great General as a PvP Rank) wich is basically a fulltime PvP Game. No matter where you go, you could be attacked any second. Sadly, the Game was destroyed (pay2win, the Game is almost dead by now) by the publishers in the EU and so i went to find another Game. I found FFXIV just as Heavensward started and i loved the PvP even though there is still no open pvp and now will never have open pvp thanks to the 4.X changes.

So then, are we supposed to switch Games or even pay 2 subs for 2 different Games just to play PvP in another Game? No. We just "make the Best" out of what is left.

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Also played Aion, and I really did try to get into the pvp. But there was no balance and, as you've said, pay to win. I love XIV's PVP for its combo buttons (like Aion) and how anyone can beat everyone if they try. It's all situational awareness which I felt Aion had a good focus on (seeing through stealth, anti weapons for some classes). If XIV's pvp was changed back to skill bloat, no combos and being pure meta, I would quit. Pay someone to farm housing items for me since Makai glams will soon be gone.

That's probably the first thing they can do to fix Frontlines. Get rid of the 15% damage buff for melee. There's zero reason for them to have it.

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Originally Posted by Ryphen

That's probably the first thing they can do to fix Frontlines. Get rid of the 15% damage buff for melee. There's zero reason for them to have it.

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Have you seen party compositions before the melee buff? Everybody was range dps, legit everyone.
Ninja with BattleHigh/Fever is very overpowered though in frontlines, but because of that incredibly fun too.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Have you seen party compositions before the melee buff? Everybody was range dps, legit everyone.
Ninja with BattleHigh/Fever is very overpowered though in frontlines, but because of that incredibly fun too.

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Yes, I did. I'm not saying take away their 30% defense buff. Just the damage buff.

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Originally Posted by Keoeson

Why should I have to join a party to "enjoy" pvp? I just got out of a frontline match, where as usual one party dominated the map..
Well, I'm out, I got the garo achievements. Keep telling yourself that there's no problem with premades and enjoy the long queue times...

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In all honesty, it doesn't sound like you like PvP at a base level. Generally, people who like PvP are competitive, and when they get beat they want to do all within their power to get better. The harder they get beat, the harder they want to try - even should they get steam-rolled. The reason I generalize like this is not to be exclusive, but to point out that you're petitioning for changes in a system which doesn't even seem to appeal to you on a fundamental level. Case in point, someone gave you an extremely thorough primer about success in the frontlines, and your response was that it wasn't worth your time. Would you play if there was no external incentive? What about a frontlines training grounds you could queue for with your friends for practice, that offered no dailies, marks, or achievements?

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Originally Posted by Keoeson

Why should I have to join a party to "enjoy" pvp? I just got out of a frontline match, where as usual one party dominated the map. One person also had the first time achievement and thus got great first impression of what to expect from pvp. On a Saturday during the day there are not enough people queueing for a large frontline match.
Well, I'm out, I got the garo achievements. Keep telling yourself that there's no problem with premades and enjoy the long queue times...

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why should you have to join and communicate with a party to enjoy something in a mmo? thats your question? hello?

oh geez you brought up the obvious premade problem
hide yo kids hide yo wife they coming to focus fire me in 1.5 seconds

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

why should you have to join and communicate with a party to enjoy something in a mmo? thats your question? hello?

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You can enjoy dunjon trial and raid without engaging into much communication... (beside "hello o/" , ty for group etc)
Yes, joining a party is better, but most content doesn't require it. So yes, why should we have to join a party to "enjoy" pvp?

Shouldn't you just enjoy pvp for doing pvp? Like... I can't just join a match, heal people and have fun doing that? Is that actually too much to ask? like "hey I have some free time and I feel like doing Frontlike, open menu -> queue." Does this kind of behavior sound so alien to you that it should be punished?

I'm not saying there's no point in joining group/communities... but if joining a pvp community is a requirement for making the experience enjoyable then no wonder the PvP scene is as barren as the first shard.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

You can enjoy dunjon trial and raid without engaging into much communication... (beside "hello o/" , ty for group etc)
Yes, joining a party is better, but most content doesn't require it. So yes, why should we have to join a party to "enjoy" pvp?

Shouldn't you just enjoy pvp for doing pvp? Like... I can't just join a match, heal people and have fun doing that? Is that actually too much to ask? like "hey I have some free time and I feel like doing Frontlike, open menu -> queue." Does this kind of behavior sound so alien to you that it should be punished?

I'm not saying there's no point in joining group/communities... but if joining a pvp community is a requirement for making the experience enjoyable then no wonder the PvP scene is as barren as the first shard.

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That's because everyone knows the mechanics in said dungeon. I assure you when there's a new player in lower level dungeons there's a lot more chatting.

Want to be able to play PvP without having to chat? Get the entire community educated, join pvpaissa and read guies (https://pvpaissa.com/discord)

Until that happens, and it probably never will, you need to be willing to communicate in PvP. PvE is static, you learn the fight once and you move on. PvP is constantly changing, therefore more communication will be involved.

Make macros if you have to.

ShivaTairo, I Wish i was your friend. Thanks for explaining all this stuff.

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Originally Posted by DebbieMachete

Generally, people who like PvP are competitive, and when they get beat they want to do all within their power to get better. The harder they get beat, the harder they want to try - even should they get steam-rolled.

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I wanna live in whatever wonderful world you live in. All I see from competitive people who go ape for PvP are smashed keyboards and bratty little men calling me the N word or something. Competitive people don't always want to get better -- they usually just want to win.

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Originally Posted by ShivaTairo

- When someone says "don't chase" or "Dont feed" They are STILL doing it wrong.

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Too much truth in this post, but I have to comment on this paragraph as one who have done 95%+ matches with PUG teams.
IF PUG teams listens (which is rare, and if they do they usually react veeery slowly), you have to also tell them when to pull away from 1v1 vs premades. PUG vs premades is very hard to lead. Best bet to win is to flank them with other team. If you smell a non-flanking situation and you don't have any fevers, pull away.

Usual ways PUG reacts to "We have to flank the premade!":

"No, stay on objective."
"Def"
"No ima leader, I know best" (insta 3rd)
"Avoid fighting, we can't beat them."
"lol, why?"
"Don't fight pls"
"Let them fight"
"Stay here"
"gg"

EDIT:
And, while I understand why people don't like limiting premades, I'd say the best solution would be to limit it to light party when Q for frontlines. Sure it's fun to steamroll the other teams, getting dat win count up, but there is far less skill involved, and you're impressing no one. It's far more impressive leading a PUG team against a premade and winning.

Feel like you have to convince players sometimes to even try winning, not even about tactics. And yeah everything you say will be read after 1-2min, so keep that in mind when trying to lead your group. In JP they pick 1 commander and that was it, he will say he is the commander for the round at the start of the match, and everybody agrees to that. Their gameplay is a bit more predetermined and a bit static, but more coordinated. In Guild Wars 2 you could buy a special symbol(marking) for PvP so they would recognize you as a leader, could be helpful here too.