monk feels like the mch of melee dps. that isn't to say that monk is a bad job at all, and it's one of my favorite jobs (in terms of class fantasy, at least) but it just doesn't feel as great to play. it feels a lot like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viejY6UZ5Bk
is there any hope for monk?
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05-10-2019, 06:29 AMgrinkdaboyis there any hope for monk?
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05-10-2019, 08:06 AMBurningskull
A guy on youtube called DrakGamestein compared the evolution of MNK abilities to DRG abilities in a video. He said that DRG's evolution was much more natural. Get skills to improve your jumps that improve your lance skills. Where as MNK doesn't really do that. Chakra doesn't amplify your base attacks it just gives you a powerful move to use. Tornado Kick removes the whole mechanic MNK is based around, and Riddle of Fire lows you down when the job is built around going fast. I agree with him.
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05-10-2019, 08:27 AMKalise
Hopefully.
MNK is a mess right now. It's full of clunk, annoying mechanics and counter-intuitive design.
Like...
* Needing to go into Fists of Wind to access Riddle of Wind in order to get a Shoulder Tackle that generates a Greased Lightning. Why?
* Riddle of Fire reducing attack speed. Why?
* Tornado Kick eating Greased Lightning (Which is both Attack Speed and Damage). Why?
* Excruciatingly short durations on things like Greased Lightning, Twin Snakes and Dragon Kick that punish downtime heavily with no way to alleviate that. Why?
* Opo-Opo Stance not being baseline so you can't get the combo bonus on your first strike without using Form Shift. Why?
* Form Shift being a GCD action. Why?
* Riddle of Earth?!?!?
Like, I don't understand where the design was even supposed to go here at all.
Heck, what's up with the fact that in the job quests, you open up your Chakra and become all glowy and powerful... In game you simply get... Another oGCD ability (Provided you crit enough or have downtime where you spam the GCD skill Meditate? Or use Brotherhood while partied with a bunch of Weaponskill users) -
05-10-2019, 08:35 AMAwfulPretty much this it feels jank and not fun to play (least for me), I also feel that the evolution of Monk compared to every other class Monk has barely changed since ARR, sure they have OGCDs and what not but its been the same relative since its conception. The only thing it lost was Touch of Death, Dragoons natural evolution honestly overshadows Monk which is why as a DPS class I barely play it I'd rather play Dragoon or Samurai where they're fun and engaging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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05-10-2019, 08:36 AMJapetus
Have you worked tornado kick into your rotation? It's been a refreshing change, though now the super optimal rotation is pretty strict with weaving and TK recovery. You can tornado kick every time tackle is up outside of riddle of fire and once at the end of riddle.
I dont see a whole lot that's bad. I do chafe a bit at RoF GCD, but it does make things feel more powerful/impactful.
With RoE, form shift, and RoW they've really extended how long a gap you can maintain GL through (or recover quickly). -
05-10-2019, 09:52 AMPhysicMnk isnt about being simple, its supposed to be about combos and controlling your flowQuote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
riddles are all about changing the effect of your shoulder tackle depending on your stance
tornado kick uses greased lightning so that the key becomes using it at the right time (when you can get greased lightning back fast)
riddle of fire reduces attack speed, but that doeant effect ogcds, so you can use all your skills between regular hits, its also a straight up dps increase, even if you dont weave in big attacks.
Riddle of earth, is for when you get hate/take dmg, like earth stance.
the low durations, well they kinda suck based on the type of content we are usually in.
As a pug/mnk main since back in the day, i dont want it to become closer to drg. It should be its own thing. -
05-10-2019, 09:57 AMPhysicuhh its very different. before you just maintain 3 stacks, now you try to work in tornado with minimal grease loss, try to line up ocgds and buffs for max riddle of fire dmg, while trying to weave in the chakra attack without losing rotation. Its a lot less simpleQuote:
Originally Posted by Awful
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05-10-2019, 10:18 AMVanitas
Really tho how do you screw up punch punch kick?
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05-10-2019, 10:30 AMvan_arn
ask again next month
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05-10-2019, 10:44 AMKaliseMNK is simple. It's just jank af.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
About combo's? You mean like literally every melee job in the entire game AND also Machinist?
Except, only Riddle of Wind actually changes your Shoulder Tackle. Riddle of Wind is also the ONLY Shoulder Tackle you use because it's the only one that generates Greased Lightning and thus is the only one that allows you to use Tornado Kick without it being a DPS loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Also, no-one uses Riddle of Earth ;)
But... Why? Why does it need to use Greased Lightning, which means feeling like crap for 3+ GCD's where you attack slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Like, it's so niche when Tornado Kick is a DPS gain, because you need to have your buffs up and Demolish up before you TK so that while you're trying to rebuilt your "Do damage" stacks back up you don't need to refresh Demolish or have and oGCD's come up while you're not at full 90% bonus damage with Twin Snakes up.
But why does it need to slow attack speed? Why can't it be a pure DPS gain without making you feel like crap because it tosses your AS out the window?Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Yeah, but it's crap. Its "Additional effect" is crap because the inherently short duration of GL and the fact that 99% of the time you want to be in Fists of Fire for the Damage because you shouldn't be taking hate and most sources of damage occur when the boss is targetable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
They suck everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
I don't want it to become closer to DRG in any way other than that DRG has very few skills that are mediocre/bad/useless. Literally all of DRG's skills are useful with only Elusive Jump being situationally bad (When it is dangerous to leap backwards)Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
I would like MNK to be uniquely MNK. However, its current path seems to be one where it is getting a ton of clunk.
Which is ironic, given that Monk's are typically fast and fluid in their fighting style and gameplay.
I like other mDPS.
Samurai is very solid and flows nicely. It feels nice to play, weaving in oGCD's and setting up Iaijutsu.
Ninja is quite fun, it feels faster paced with its high attack speed from Huton as well as its Ninjutsu weaving and Ninki spenders. It's only downside is Mudra lag.
Dragoon is solid and has very nice flow in combat. Though, Blood of the Dragon timer can get annoying at times.
Monk... Is jank and clunk on top of jank and clunk. I don't even understand why other mDPS are made solid and refined, while MNK is left to be all janky with skills that can't be allowed to be simply DPS increases and need to be tied to DPS losses.
Like, Monk has a unique combo system. Yet it is not used it's just the same 123 as everyone else (Except DRG which uses 12345).
It has twin resources but Chakra is only used for 2 skills total, one of which being simply a copy of a Role Action for TP gain... While the other one is also their damage boost that makes their otherwise very low potencies worthwhile and then is consumed for reasons...
It has stances. But one of them is literally "Do more damage" so is the de-facto one. With the only other one that is wanted to be used is only cared about because it turns a bad skill into a useful one then after that one skill is used, it is swapped out for the good stance instead.
It has skills that promote stance usages. But they're all terribly designed so none of them feel very good to use (This, in combination with the poorly implemented stances compounds things)
Its DPS cooldowns also feel underwhelming. Internal Release is still only 30% crit chance increase despite no longer needing to be balanced as a cross-class skill (It is also made even more underwhelming by Bootshine's combo bonus being making it a guaranteed crit). Riddle of Fire has its arbitrary attack speed down. Brotherhood is RNG on how much it will benefit you as well as being designed to only benefit having other physical jobs in your party (This also excludes PLD whom will want to be Requiescat > Holy Spirit spam during burst windows thus nullifying Brotherhood benefit)
In short, Monk has a lot of potential. It has some unique mechanics that can be capitalized on. But instead, SE seem to just force in some jank for no reason.
As someone who often plays Monks in games and mostly plays Monk characters in D&D campaigns... It just feels odd for Monk to come out feeling so jank. -
05-10-2019, 06:02 PMXau
well, the fact what the devs said they gonna rework monk for shb, i say there is hope, albeit i will wait until the skill showcase to see if it ends good or not, i just hope they change many of the issues the job has like how chakra is only used for only 1 skill, since the other skill(purification) it uses it is outright useless in more than one way outside of one scenario(aoe spam, and no one uses it for the agro redution effect since it cuts into your dmg anyway), on me opinion sb monk was a wasted chance to give nice things to mnk, and what they added made it worse outside of the later change effect to riddle of wind
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05-10-2019, 06:40 PMPhysic
@kalise, it looks like you dont like the concept of skills that require more button presses, and require you to use them at the right time for maximum benefit(which means they are not always as effective if used at the wrong time)
but i think this is what they are going for with mnk. It could definitely use improvements, like fist of wind needs a better basic ability. But basically they want it to feel like its about building up and managing flows.
and mnk definitely doesnt do 1-2-3 for good dps. your best damage is bootshine true strike and snap punch, but you need to maintain buffs/debuffs from demolish dragon kick and twin snakes, so you are constantly using all 6 skills.
pulling everything together feels like pulling off a great comboination
d and d monks are conceptually cool, but the actual moment to moment doesnt compare to the style id want from a martial artist.
id definitely want improvements, but i prefer mnk to sam/drg playstyles at least up to 60. -
05-10-2019, 06:55 PMDaraliiThis was the video he did on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MUEXpEOTsQQuote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
Basically, the job's identity is split between PGL abilities(Greased Lightning) and MNK abilities(Chakra) with little synergy between them, while others have their class aspects(archery, lance techniques, gladiator arts, etc) intertwine with their job aspects(music, jumps and dragon blood, oaths). -
05-10-2019, 07:19 PMKaliseHuh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
I literally state that I like NIN. Which requires multiple button presses to utilize Mudra and access their Ninjutsu.
Which, outside of some occasional lag, is actually pretty fun.
MNK's multiple button press skills are not fun. Since they're all GCD actions so they're slow and not possible to actually use in an actual rotation for any kind of dynamic play because they compete with your actual skills.
That's literally a description of basically every skill in the entire game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Heck, at its core that is the base of combo's. That combo skills (Outside of MNK) are less effective outside of their position within a combo.
To say nothing about other jobs whom have resources to manage or time sensitive skills to use.
If I take just Warrior alone, then there is:
* Fell Cleave that is less effective if used at a time when you're not about to overcap on Beast Gauge, with some cases where you use it earlier to get the CDR on Infuriate to bring it back up.
* Butcher's Block combo is less effective outside of times when you need to gain extra enmity.
* Shake It Off needs to be managed around CD's as it is a less effective shield if it doesn't consume other CD's, but if its being used for self preservation then it can be less effective to consume your defensive CD(s) by using it.
* Upheaval is less effective when used at a lower amount of life, in addition to being used while not having Thrill of Battle active.
* Anticipation is less effective while Raw Intuition is active.
* Rampart and Vengeance are less effective while the other is active due to damage reduction stacking multiplicatively not additively.
I can go on and on with literally every other job in the game.
Having to use the right skills at the right time is not unique to Monk.
What is unique to Monk is those skills feeling bad to use because they all actively make your gameplay worse after using them. No other job receives penalties to its stats from using its skills. No other job feels as clunky as Monk outside maybe the RNG ridden Machinist that also has similar jank in its kit.
It literally is 123.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish/Snap Punch
Bootshine > True Strike > Demolish/Snap Punch
You rotate between 2x 123 combos.
Just like how Warrior rotates between Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye and Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path.
How Paladin rotates between Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade and Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority
How Ninja rotates between Gust Slash > Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang and Gust Slash > Spinning Slash > Aeolian Edge and Gust Slash > Spinning Slash > Armor Crush
How Samurai rotates between Hakaze > Shinpu > Kasha and Hakaze > Jinpu > Gekko and the slightly different Hakaze > Yukikaze
It feels like playing literally any other class. Only this one arbitrarily hits like a wet noodle until you get your 3x Greased Lightning up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
That is, until you use one of your "DPS Cooldowns" and consume your Greased Lightning or tank your attack speed (Right after you just built it up...)
Heck, even Perfect Balance feels like poop to use because when it's over you're back at square 1 without a form active so you have to go through an entire 123 combo to be able to utilize Dragon Kick properly or get the guaranteed Bootshine crit.
Ironically, up to 60 these 3 jobs all play pretty much the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
With SAM/DRG evolving post 50 to include extra rotations (DRG getting Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust putting them into 1234 style rotations) or extra resources to manage (SAM getting the Kenki Gauge)
In fact, MNK at 60 hits its peak of clunk, with gaining Tornado Kick, but the only way to actually use it as a DPS gain is via Perfect Balance, since you don't get Riddle of Wind until level 66 to be able to use RoW > Snap Punch to get an instant 2x Greased after using it. Nor do you have the Deep Meditation from level 62 to make The Forbidden Chakra an actually usable skill outside of once per fight if you pre-spam Meditate before each pull. -
05-10-2019, 08:05 PMSatarnHow does "regular part of your rotation" translate to "niche"? If you ask anybody who actually plays MNK at high percentiles, they will tell you that not using TK is a huge dps loss. With Perfect Balance and Riddle of Wind changes, you can regain the stacks really quickly and you're supposed to play around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I agree that there is some clunk to the job - I'd rather remove stances and make Shoulder Tackle upgrade to Wind Tackle as a trait for example, also RoF slowdown does indeed feel iffy(I know it's there to help with weaving, but I don't think it's necessary). Some things you see as clunk however, are what makes MNK rotation feel active and varied, more so than other jobs.
You keep praising the other melee and honestly it seems to me like you never enjoyed MNK in the first place, so perhaps you should just not play the job. I don't mean that in a bad way, but if SE kept taking feedback from people who don't play certain jobs to change them, then they can easily alienate the players who do enjoy them right now and I think the latter should be a priority. A NIN/DRG/SAM main saying they want MNK to change, isn't the same as HW MCH player saying the SB MCH is bad - those MCHs were actually driven out the job they used to love. Universal appeal isn't always a good thing, that is the point of having multiple options. -
05-10-2019, 08:54 PMReiMakotoTaking Point by PointQuote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
1. I agree this is dumb, riddle of wind was changed to give greased lightning otherwise it was useless.
2. Its so you can weave more to maximise burst windows. With the way buff stacking works, having riddle of fire with other party buffs up makes you hit like an absolute truck, which imo is well worth the slowdown, especially when you weave more in that window thanks to brotherhood and cd's lining up
3. Tornado Kick was initially designed as a way to make down time not as punished. I.E. You tornado kick when you know your stacks are doomed and you get a neat dps gain out of it. Since its release, perfect balances' CD was reduced and riddle of wind now exists, so that in combination with aformentioned lining up of burst windows makes a monster DPS gain for monk.
4. The short durations on the buffs just encourage high uptime, which melees should be doing anyway, and in times you know you're going to lose the timers, youve got tornado kick
5. Dunno, I can't think of a reason not to just let you throw up dragon kick immediatly
6. Formshift as a gcd makes sense, as you'll only use it when things are untargetable anyway, and having it as an OGCD would introduce more complexity into the monk rotation, i.e skipping certain bits of the combo chain to recover stacks quicker.
7. Riddle of earth is great, boss becomes untargetable but theres still damage going out, pop riddle of earth and refresh your greased lightning. Loads of times when you can use it, biggest one that comes to me atm is o12s when the bosses split, you can use riddle of earth on the stack marker to maintain your stacks until they become targetable again.
The idea is monk has its own ways of dealing with downtime that they can optimise to minimise loss, using form shift and riddle of earth to make stacks stay longer and when thats set up meditate to gain more dps, its kit actually works together with itself very well. -
05-10-2019, 09:35 PMKaliseBecause it's not just a "Regular part of your rotation"Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
"Regular part of your rotation" makes it sound like you just toss it out as soon as you hit 3 Greased. Which is a good way to make it a DPS loss.
You need a bunch of requirements met in order to actually gain from using Tornado Kick. Such as having Demolish with enough duration to allow you to get 3 Greased + Twin Snakes before it needs refreshing. Having either Perfect Balance or Riddle of Wind + Snap Punch ready to quickly get back Greased.
Also, ideally, you'd want these things to also happen at the end of Riddle of Fire too. So that you can get RoF's damage bonus onto TK and then once RoF ends you're more freely able to do your noodle damage skills while you build Greased again.
I enjoyed MNK around level 50ish. While in a party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
After level 50, they started adding in all the clunk mechanics and prior to level 50 I did a lot of soloing back when positional bonuses where 40 potency so it felt super awful...
I feel that MNK has such potential to be fun for me, so I put forward my feedback. If SE listen, they listen, if not, then they don't.
However, as things stand, I want to reiterate:
MNK has a unique combo system that doesn't necessarily need to abide by the 123 standard that every other job has. They can be designed to have more reason to mix up their rotations utilizing the fact that their "Stances" open up multiple options for each stage (IMO, NIN has the most dynamic combo purely because while at a Flank Armor Crush will deal more damage than the standard filler Aeolian Edge. While MNK is at the mercy of basically having to flip-flop between Buff and Damage because of such short durations and well... Lack of alternatives)
MNK has their Chakra resource which can be developed on. Heck, if you relate it back to their actual job quests, there should be the potential to go to a 14 point Chakra system, with 7 Light and 7 Dark Chakra to open up and thus allow generation and spending of 2 types of Chakra - Instead of what we have now with the 5 points of Chakra leading to basically just "The Forbidden Chakra" skill.
MNK has stances and Riddle skills to promote being in certain stances. Which, if done well, could actually have stance dancing as an actual part of MNK's rotations (Outside of FoW > RoW > RoW > FoF for Greased generation). Such as if things like Riddle of Earth and Riddle of Wind were DPS CD's like Riddle of Fire that could offset the lack of Fists of Fire.
... Am I missing some skills then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Since I can quite easily weave all 4 oGCD's into the space of 2 GCD actions without the slowdown. Maybe at high SkS? But even then, given that burst window CD's are 10s it shouldn't be necessary to have slowdown to fit your 4 oGCD's into the time frame even if you only single weave.
Other melee are also encouraged to have high uptime. But don't have annoyingly short durations on their maintenance skills (Also, can quickly get their SkS buff up to make it faster to get the rest of their maintenance skills up. I.e. SAM can get Shifu up as their second skill and NIN can regain Huton via oGCD if for some reason the 70s duration buff ran out...)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Does Tornado Kick reapply all the buffs/debuffs? No.
Meaning that, yes, while Tornado Kick does mimic MCH's Overdrive in terms of frontloading damage before you get into forced downtime, it doesn't alleviate the clunk that is having to re-apply all your maintenance stuff for so many forced downtimes.
Why would it be a bad thing to have some extra complexity into the Monk rotation where you can use an oGCD Form Shift to skip some actions? Especially when Monk's rotations aren't progressively stronger like other jobs (In fact, True Strike is their hardest hitting combo action - Outside of Demolish's full duration that is)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Not to mention that even when things are untargetable, it being oGCD would be smoother as it wouldn't take 2.5 seconds to shift between each stance (Meaning that if you're shifting to get to Coeurl to get an instant Greased stack it takes 5 seconds as you go Nothing > Opo-Opo > Raptor > Coeurl) -
05-11-2019, 12:14 AMReiMakotoA lot to unpack here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Yes, tornado kick is a regular part of your rotation, much like how on warrior onslaught is a regular part of your rotation during IR, and how holy spirit is a part of your rotation as pld, but you typically dont use it unless req is up. You don't always fire off abilities off CD, but those abilities are still regular parts of your rotation. Just cos tornado kick has some strict requirements to be good, it doesn't mean its not a regular rotation skill (plus with riddle of wind it takes like 3 gcds to get your buffs back thats like nothing)
You're not missing skills, but you weave those 4, with forbidden chakra coming off cd randomly you can weave a lot more. I'm probably in the minority that likes the slowdown, because it makes the skills in rof feel more oomfy, then again i liked ranged cast bars.
I don't quite understand your point about Tornado kick refreshing the buffs/ debuffs, also the point is that mnk isn't SAM or NIN, its its own thing, and its thing is maintaining buffs. It doesn't take much at all to get your maintenance buffs back, plus most fights really dont have a lot of downtime built in (at least in savage) there will be like 2 maaaaybe 3 times you'll be forced to lose stacks, which you'll get back in 3 gcds, its just a skill ceiling thing I suppose.
I don't get why you're saying you have nothing wrong with making the rotation more complex, when its arguably the rotations complexity (or clunk) that you have an issue with. Having form shift be ogcd would mess with the buff timers even more, cos even if you extended the buff timers, the rotation would just be about squeezing out as many non buff combos as you can, which would make the timing still tight. Also I don't see the issue with it being 5 secs to form shift over to the right form to start the targetting, if you are losing stacks the boss is likely untargettable for a lot more than 5 secs, so its a non issue, if you're not getting ther fast enough, thats on you. -
05-11-2019, 12:26 AMKazrah
I'd think the biggest issue for Monk was really that where all the other jobs got rid of "useless" skills and abilities, Monk seemed to have greater focus placed on them to the point where nearly everything they got in Stormblood seemed borderline pointless. Such an issue may have been further impacted by the fact that the core components (the six baseline weaponskills) have never really needed to be altered or adjusted since ARR in comparison to the baseline weaponskill rotations of other jobs.
More abilities using Chakra, maybe a cooldown that grants a 3-stack of Greased Lightning, maybe even a utility ability that actually feels like you're helping others in your group....that might help for Shadowbringers. -
05-11-2019, 12:42 AMDarkplanet
I personally love playing monk. I made a rotation that I’m sure it’s not 100% meta but I think it’s pretty good, and it’s a blast to play. It’s a LOT more intensive then other classes, but I feel like it has this intensity and fast paced aspect to it that actually feels like you are performing martial arts combos, I liken it to doing combos in say a 2d fighting game to a degree. Idk I’m a huge fan personally, but I can understand why people don’t like it.
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05-11-2019, 01:29 AMKaliseIR is not War's rotation. It is their CD. Outside of IR, Onslaught is not a part of their rotation and is only used when its mobility is necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Holy Spirit is part of your rotation as PLD. Since, when you don't have Fight or Flight up, you want to use it as often as possible, while still making sure to gain enough MP to Requiescat with a full MP bar. Since, outside of FoF, Holy Spirit is your highest damage skill (Not accounting for Goring Blade's full rotation)
What next? Your going to say that Enkindle Bahamut is a regular part of Summoner's rotation because it gets spammed on CD during the burst window they set up over 2 minutes?
You need to learn what a "Rotation" actually is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Rotations are the things that you use continuously, which are only adapted when CD's are up that might change how you play (Such as how WAR's will spam Fell Cleave during IR, how PLD will spam Holy Spirit during Requiescat, how SMN will spam Ruin II during Bahamut)
Tornado Kick fits in with CD's, because you typically only want to use it when you have a CD available to regain Greased. But not only that, due to the way Greased affects your damage, you have extra conditions surrounding its use not just having CD's available - Such as ensuring you have enough duration on your Demolish and sometimes also trying to fit it into the tail end of your RoF.
If its intent was to be tied to Shoulder Tackle/Perfect Balance... Why not simply make it so that the skill is unusable unless you've used Shoulder Tackle/Perfect Balance without it consuming Greased?
I still don't see the need for it. I've never experienced a point in the game where I was unable to weave in skills fast enough. Outside of Machinists Wildfire rotation, because the oGCD's have animations that prevent double weaving...Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Buff maintenance isn't its own thing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Literally all the mDPS do that thing. Heck, DRG even has the exact same buff maintenance combo > damage combo flip-flop rotation.
But even DRG gets more lenient timers for its maintenance.
Like, MNK's buff/debuff maintenance timers makes sense if it was all about keeping 3 Greased and having tons of SkS to keep punching madly so that their short timers are still somewhat lenient because you perform your rotations so much faster. But they're not. They're arbitrarily designed around slowing down because TK eats their Greased and RoF eats their SkS.
It takes at least 4 GCD's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
That's significant. Also, that's only if you have Perfect Balance available to use (Which also means one less TK because you have to use the PB duration to spam out your 3x Snap Punch for Greased + Twin Snake + Dragon Kick)
In a world where you don't have Perfect Balance available, then you have to use 6 GCD's + Riddle of Wind (Also costing a TK)
If you have neither available, you have to use 9 GCD's. (Depending on how much downtime you had and whether you spammed GCD Meditate or GCD Form Shift during said downtime)
Monk isn't complex. It's simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
It's literally, 123/123 and use Tornado Kick when you have things set up so that it won't be a DPS loss.
That's not complex. That's simple and just clunky.
Complexity =/= clunkiness.
Complexity will be something to do with how many options you have available where they each have ideal situations. So would be more closely shown through something like NIN where their combo finisher can alternate between Aeolian Edge or Armor Crush depending on where they are currently positioned (As opposed to MNK where you just do your 123 irregardless of if you hit the positional or not because even a non-positional combo'd Bootshine/True Strike does equal or more damage than a positional combo'd Dragon Kick/Twin Snakes) or their Ninjutsu where you have Doton/Raiton/Fuma Shuriken to pick from depending on how laggy you are and if you can snapshot a buff (With the boss standing in Doton for its full duration)
Clunk is when things are awkward or not fluid, because of poor design. Such as how DRG loses eye stacks when Blood of the Dragon drops. How MCH has RNG for their combo and awkward animations to deal with for their oGCD skills. How DRK has to mash Dark Arts before most of their skills and how it has a CD so you can't DA for an oGCD skill and a GCD skill back to back.
It wouldn't mess with them, since it would be easier to maintain them. Since you'd be able to skip to the skills that would refresh them more easily. Especially for Greased which requires Coeurl, which is 2 GCD's to get to (5 seconds) meaning you need at least that long to get there as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
5 seconds of Form Shifting is annoying to do pre-pull. Especially if I also want to Meditate pre-pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Like, we're talking 7 GCD's pre-pull to be maximally efficient. That's really god damn annoying to deal with when you want to optimize in all content (It's less annoying in Raids since you have countdowns so people can pre-pot and pre-cast anyway) -
05-11-2019, 01:51 AMSatarnYou don't get to arbitrarily decide what "regular" means, just because it "sounds like it" to you. By that logic Holy Spirit is "niche" because while you usually have extra MP outside of Req, casting it is a dps loss as the spell doesn't benefit from the slashing debuff. You could say Fell Cleave is "niche", because you generally want to get as high on Beast Gauge as possible for the crit bonus or save gauge for raid buffs and gods forbid you use Fell Cleave rather than Onslaught while Infuriate is off cd and you're at 60/70 gauge. Literally no resource based action is used "as soon as it's ready". Regular just means it's something you do fairly often - which you do with TK if you're playing correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
That setup you dislike so much, is what makes it engaging and enjoyable for a lot of people. It also adds extra optimization above "the standard" which some people would love to see in more jobs actually.
Also if you're only using TK at end of RoF, then you're screwing yourself out of a lot of dps.
Making Form Shift ogcd would most likely make it something you want to weave in constantly. I mean, double weaving that shit nearly every gcd. Now that's clunk.
I feel like RDM has potential to be enjoyable for me, because I like the distance switching, but it would need a lot more ogcd weaving and more complex melee combos chained with spells to reach that potential. It would be however very unreasonable of me to ask SE to change it, as big part of RDM's appeal is it's simplicity. Not every job is for you and it shouldn't be, as that would mean there's not enough variety.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I'm afraid that might be you, considering you don't think buffs are part of the rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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05-11-2019, 02:30 AMKaliseHoly Spirit is a DPS gain because it is stronger than the 2 skills you need to perform to access Royal Authority which reduces RA's DPS value even with its theoretically higher damage due to Slashing Debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
I literally did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
Fell Cleave is only used when about to cap Gauge (So, 90/100) and when Upheaval is not available (Or if Upheaval is available but you're below 60% life, without Thrill of Battle up).
Regular means something you do fairly often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
Rotation is something somewhat cyclical that you perform repeatedly.
Yes, and people can opine about how much they love it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
I'm still allowed to express my own opinion too.
Why? What exactly are you cycling for? Are you cycling for the sake of cycling?Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
You'd only need to weave it if there was a reason to weave it. Which would be, like at best maybe you'd try and skip Snap Punch and Bootshine in favour for more True Strikes? (Unless Snap Punch got its potency increased to 180 with the positional bonus and then it would equal True Strike and thus you'd only maybe skip Bootshine?)
Unless we were still clinging to the mechanic of having Tornado Kick eat your Greased so then the rotation became literally just about putting up Dragon/Twin and then skipping to Snap/Demolish to Tornado Kick every 10s?
It's not unreasonable to opine about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
That's literally what feedback forums are for. To give your opinion about things.
Again, I'm allowed to provide my thoughts. Just like everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
There are people who loved Bow Mage but that still didn't stop people providing their feedback saying they disliked it.
All I'm doing, is providing my feedback on this job that I play, just like with every other job that I play. Saying what I personally feel about the job.
If you don't like what I say, you don't have to agree, nor does SE have to do anything with my feedback.
My stating my thoughts that I think Monk is designed as a clunky mess won't magically make SE turn them into a carbon copy of DRG, in fact, it's likely that they won't even read my posts (Not unless people keep arguing with me in this thread so it becomes very long and people keep liking my first post in the thread where I mentioned about some of the clunky parts of MNK)
What on earth are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
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05-11-2019, 02:45 AMPhysic
@Kalise
uhhh why are you calling different skills 123
call them 123 456
Doing 123456126453
is not the same as 123123123123
and if you get enough skill speed it starts looking like
123456456123
so your rotation evolves and changes, and changes again with like riddle.
mnk is different in that you are not commited to one chain or the other.
optimal monk rotations change based on your skill speed and greased lightning level.
which also changes when you use riddle/tk
also there no reason you would take 9 cool downs to get back gl3, you basically use it right before a couerl stance skill, so you will need 6 or 3 -
05-11-2019, 05:33 AMReiMakotoI'm glad you understand what a rotation is. Now say theres a buff, lets call it Inner release. Inner Release comes off cooldown every 90s, and to make optimal use of it you use it every 90s, you could almost say then that your rotation is operating in 90 second... cycles? That you are rotating through your skills over a 90 second period of time? Also yes to your point earlier, bahamut is part of your smn rotation, smn has the longest rotation in the game requiring a build up of minutes. Rotations arn't the few abilities you use the most regularly in a short time span, they're the cycle of abilities you use and are generally defined by your longest cd damaging cooldownQuote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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05-11-2019, 06:51 AMSpeckledBurd
Is there hope for Monk? Sure, but it's been tempered by bitterness at this point after Stormblood's promises of the Action Overhaul and Monk being the "Poster Job" (lol) gave me a ton of hope and utterly crushed any expectations with what they ended up delivering.
Monk has been in need of an action overhaul for the longest time of any Job in the game full stop. Going into Stormblood it had the greatest Number of useless actions of any job in the game, and even after the action overhaul it's still basically that. We had three fist stances, one of which we actually want to use because as a DPS we want the one that boosts potency. Skills like Haymaker, Featherfoot, Arm of the Destroyer and One Ilm Punch were worthless, and while they removed the two Former, the latter two are in the game and just as bad as ever. Tornado Kick in Heavensward was cool in terms of its animation but it’s opportunity cost was so high we could never use it except as a 1% mercy stroke. We had Purification, a TP regen that could only be used after using Meditate to build 5 chakras. Not a bad idea, Monk had TP woes in ARR, but building chakras was a damage loss unless the boss was untargetable…which meant you had already regained your TP, so the skill was useless. Meanwhile The Job Critical action, Perfect Balance (IE, your get to GL3 button) had an obscene cooldown, three times the length of equivalent skills Blood of the Dragon or Enochian.
The Stormblood actions and traits were also varying degrees of… bad. Tackle Mastery elected to try and tackle (heh) the issue with the fist stances while never actually fixing the inherent problem with Fists of Fire’s effect making the other two worthless, and it did so in the worst manner possible. Tackling in Earth gives you an effect you literally never want and it cuts your range, tackling in wind let you close a gap again, but only after using the gap closer once, and fire was additional potency… so you only wanted to stay in Fists of Fire more. Riddle of Earth is the dumbest conceivable solution to Greased Lightning possible. We have to get hit and take damage in order to refresh our stacks. The use case is when the boss jumps and does a big aoe. Sounds fine, but it isn’t because the bosses don’t always do an undodgeable AOE, sometimes you’re supposed to dodge and not supposed to take damage, so you have to run into the AOE like a fool (Shinryu, Rofocale, some others). Sometimes the boss won’t come back in time for it to be easy to refresh (ExFausts timing is extremely tight and if he thunders you gamble with your life). Sometimes they just don’t do an AOE in time, or AOE at all (Susano, Tsukiyomi, Lakshmi, some others). Further, because Greased Lightning’s duration is so short, if you didn’t get a combo finisher before the jump you might lose your stacks anyway. And, because you have to take damage for it to proc, a scholar critlo-ing might block you in the instances where it should work anyway (Twintania to Nael Transition). In Black Mage Terms, this would be like getting "Mana Ward Mastery: Extends Enochian Duration to Maximum when full 30% damage is absorbed" instead of tying enochian to AF/UI and letting you transpose”. Riddle of Fire is a powerful buff, allowing for Monk to have the strongest Burst in the game, but it also evokes the feeling of losing your stacks by giving you a slow, and quite a few people hate that and feel that it goes against what the Job is supposed to be. Monk’s timers also assume a ~2 second GCD so you’re required to clip or drop your buffs/dot occasionally. It was implemented to allow you to double weave when Brotherhood (discussed later) feeds you procs, but it’s literally impossible to get enough Forbidden Chakras to make this necessary. Deep Meditation and Brotherhood attach Bard Mechanics to Monk, but the procs come slow, they make Meditation worse at mitigating lost down time if you enter a down phase with Chakras built, and we have no means of dumping stacks early in the case we’re getting a lot of procs like Bard does with Pitch Perfect while also getting locked out of them because of Forbidden Chakra having a long cool down. Further, Brotherhood only procs from Weaponskills, not spells, so Monk just feels worse if there’s a caster DPS in the party. Many people don’t like the RNG aspect of it inherently, preferring the more consistent playstyle from Heavensward/ARR.
That was just at launch. Moving forward to 4.2, they made some other changes that, while it did make Monk recover from losing its stacks much easier, also allowed quite a few of the terrible design choices to coalesce into a lot of really clunky mechanics or made Monk suffer losses that no one else had to put up with. Riddle of Wind gained the effect of Granting one Stack of Greased Lightning and Perfect Balance’s cooldown was cut to a third because 3 minutes was unreasonably long and had been forever. That’s a good idea and it also made it feasible to use Tornado Kick, which a lot of people liked. Indeed, the optimal monk rotation involves doing that, but it’s extremely clunky. It takes a stance change and two oGCDs to finally get Riddle of Wind’s effect and one stance change to get back to fire after a Tornado kick. Monks buff durations, as mentioned, all assume a 2 second GCD, so wildly fluctuating it by dropping your stacks makes performing this rotation extremely tight and sensitive to fight mechanics. Some people like how much maximization this allows for, others hate the way it feels. It’s probably the most polarizing aspect of the job at this point, but since it goes against the devs stated desire to bring down the skill ceiling it means that the TK rotation is a total accident and probably getting the axe.
Purification also got an Aggro cut attached to it, so we can cut our aggro finally, but we’re the only job to lose 400+ potency oGCD to do it. Samurai doesn’t even lose kenki, just more efficient Kenki use. Black Mage doesn’t have to give up a Foul to Lucid, so why should Monk get penalized? Answer, it shouldn’t but it does anyway.
So at this point Monk has two problems both of which necessitate an overhaul. Bad Skills and Traits that work poorly or shouldn’t exist. The Three Fist Stances that shouldn’t exist and by extension Tackle Mastery. One Ilm Punch, a skill so bad the devs have mocked it in game on multiple occasions. Purification, which makes monk take a penalty for basic functionality that other jobs can just do and will soon be without it’s primary usage because TP is being removed. Arm of the Destroyer, a 50 potency AOE that costs more TP than our higher damaging AOE Skill, but hey it has a silence that’s never of use since everyone else can do that much easier and for less of a loss. It will be less bad in Shadowbringers because of TP's removal, but the amount of damage it does is so pitifully low that it’s often better to just bootshine in AOE. And Riddle of Earth, a skill whose activation requirement might make sense on a Tank but on a DPS just makes no sense. The other is skills, that while effective, go against what the job should be such as Riddle of Fire. Yet in spite of having so many bad actions, Monk still has basic utility missing from it's kit such as a ranged poke Weaponskill, an AOE Gauge dump, a disengage skill, a DPS neutral gap closer or movement skill, and literally any kind of new Weaponskill since ARR. -
05-11-2019, 07:01 AMenthauptet
It'd be better if they just gave us 3.0 monk back to be honest. SB changes and tornado kick rotation are just a big joke (especially if you remember the job quests).
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05-11-2019, 07:03 AMBurningskull
MNK will be awesome in 5.0 when they remove positionals. :)
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05-11-2019, 07:06 AMSpeckledBurd
The positive to this is, the devs are aware of how poorly received Stormblood Monk has been. They acknowledged how much we didn't like Riddle of Fire's slow during a Q&A during sometime in 4.1 or so and I'd be surprised if they've missed the feedback on pretty much everything else wrong with the job. With Bard and Paladin going into Heavensward, it resulted in them being overhauled into the most popular iterations of those jobs ever. That is why I can still say there's hope for Monk, they have overhauled jobs to great effect when they actually knew what the issues are.
I'm just praying we get a an overhaul like Bard or Paladin and not one like Stormblood Machinist. -
05-11-2019, 08:13 AMKingFrost
I hope they correct the flow of the job. Too much feels "off" about Monk.
Riddle of Wind is clunky. Double tackle keeps you locked in place, potentially costing a positional and is anathema to the job's motif of speed and agility (Read: Moving around a lot).
Stance dancing just adds to button bloat. FoW is still useless and FoF is still mandatory. They're only ever hit for ONE oGCD, which in and of itself feels like clunky design. 2 (3 with RoW/ST) more buttons to press for one move? A trait could solve this.
Riddle of Fire is anathema to GL3 and what makes Monk fun (For me anyways). This has already been discussed to hell and back, but it's still pertinent. It just shows that SE has no sense of what to do with Monk.
The job needs a makeover. Here's hoping the 24th leaves it sitting pretty. -
05-11-2019, 07:24 PMPhysichmm, i hope they dont kill the job for me in making it better for you. But i guess no matter what someone losesQuote:
Originally Posted by KingFrost
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05-15-2019, 01:58 AMColtvoyance
There's a lot I love about MNK, and there's things about it's current structure I absolutely hate.
The current Best DPS "Rotation" for MNK is absolutely ludicrous. The timing is incredibly tight and if you flub one button press it can all go to hell. TK Rotations are conceptually fun, but the way those rotations are executed feels BAD.
Lets put it this way. BLM has a rotation where what you cast and when you cast it makes sense. (This is not a call to make MNK as simple as BLM let me finish.) It has a rotation, specifically designed by the Devs to flow a certain way, like all classes. It has leeway here and there for you to mix it up, but generally "Your rotation will likely match the one they designed."
I cannot imagine any Dev looking at "Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > TK > Snap Punch > Fists of Wind > Bootshine > Tackle > Tackle > True Strike > Fists of Fire > Demolition" and thinking "That makes sense. That's a very obvious flow of skills that the players will naturally pick up on."
The process of rebuilding GL stacks quickly feels unintuitive and cumbersome. Because it's supposed to. Because for 60 levels, the goal of the class was to maintain your stacks, because rebuilding them was a struggle - a punishment. Monk was initially designed to get stronger the longer the fight goes on. It's late-fight GL3 strength and speed was supposed to compensate for its slow start at the beginning. It's why Perfect Balance had such a long cooldown time.
TK Rotations where you're constantly building up, and tearing down your stacks feels awkward because repeatedly building your stacks in such quick succession is not how the class was initially designed to function. It's trying to overturn 60 levels of design philosophy.