Dark Knights Questline (Spoilers ahead)

Hello eorzeans,

i just finished the dark knight questline and was hooked about how it shows the dark side of being a hero. Especially when her "evil little twin" stood before my character.

That last fight was basically a journey to the past. I loved it every single bit.

Thank you SE. And i dunno why i neglected it so hard until now.
Lets me view my WoL from another Level.

Aoi

I get that the WoL is supposed to be a paragon of sunshine even as a DRK (hence why we had to excise the "dark twin" in the level 60 quest), but there was one kind of dissonance I felt during the level 70 one
When the villain (was that a girl or a guy? I don't recall) summons shades of some of the villains we killed before, I guess we are supposed to feel intimidated by the odds, but it fell flat for me
For one, there's no way that these jobbers would pose a threat to the level 70 WoL given the massive amount of power creep we get
and for two, killing Ilberd again? Yes please, where do I sign? Seriously, for all the crap this guy put us through, kicking his butt once wasn't remotely enough, so getting to kill him again would have been a bonus as far as I'm concerned

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Originally Posted by Big-Isaac

I get that the WoL is supposed to be a paragon of sunshine even as a DRK (hence why we had to excise the "dark twin" in the level 60 quest), but there was one kind of dissonance I felt during the level 70 one
When the villain (was that a girl or a guy? I don't recall) summons shades of some of the villains we killed before, I guess we are supposed to feel intimidated by the odds, but it fell flat for me
For one, there's no way that these jobbers would pose a threat to the level 70 WoL given the massive amount of power creep we get
and for two, killing Ilberd again? Yes please, where do I sign? Seriously, for all the crap this guy put us through, kicking his butt once wasn't remotely enough, so getting to kill him again would have been a bonus as far as I'm concerned

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Myste wasn't attempting to intimidate or overpower you. He was attempting to guilt trip you and demoralize you, but you prove that you're stronger than that.

I went mostly with 63-67 gear into the last fight so it was a big challenge for me. I leveled mostly over roulettes... xD"
But yeah with enough gear everything likely is not an issue like usual. Especially if you already have a tank on 70 at least.

Yeah killing Ilberd again... Good we had another kick at his butt. Liked that one..

I honestly just went for the story. Not gonna actively put my drk to my pool of jobs i play in shadowbringers.. ^^"

Myste was so fishy the whole questline through... We basically had no other option to play along as he destroyed our soul crystal....

I think the best dialogue was during the lvl 45 quest when we get to brutally deny a fetch quest into the merchants face. Like: Nope i am out, get your own shit!
Loved that one tbh <3

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Originally Posted by Rollout

Myste wasn't attempting to intimidate or overpower you. He was attempting to guilt trip you and demoralize you, but you prove that you're stronger than that.

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Yes but the message fell flat IMO because of who Myste tries to guilt trip you WITH.

I laughed out loud when Ilberd was brought out. I feel zero sympathy for him. The heavens ward? Why would I feel bad about them? Gaius' henchmen? Please, soldiers in an invading army.

If they wanted to guilt trip us the msp would first have to have us actually kill someone deserving of feeling guilt. Or bring in some innocent people caught in the crossfire of our battles against the empire/ascians etc.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yes but the message fell flat IMO because of who Myste tries to guilt trip you WITH.

I laughed out loud when Ilberd was brought out. I feel zero sympathy for him. The heavens ward? Why would I feel bad about them? Gaius' henchmen? Please, soldiers in an invading army.

If they wanted to guilt trip us the msp would first have to have us actually kill someone deserving of feeling guilt. Or bring in some innocent people caught in the crossfire of our battles against the empire/ascians etc.

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You know what would have been the ultimate guilt trip? At least for the WoL her/himself.

- Haurchefant -

(Because we technically killed him and considering how visibly hard our WoL was hit by his death, i could see his presence shaken the WoLs mentality)

I really didn't like the SB quests for DRK.

Myste was super annoying and horrendously naive.

Like, the single most painful thing to endure, is the loss of someone important. He wanted to put people through that a second time, by tricking them into thinking that their loved one was still alive, before they eventually poofed into nothing.

The only time his plan had any merit was when he summoned Ser Ompagne to allow Sid (Whom was fully aware that this was not him being still alive and Myste would have known this, unlike with literally everyone else he summoned for) to have some self reflection.

Then the final quest? Where this little brat is trying to guilt trip me?

Are you for real?

It's not as if I went out hunting down people to kill for kicks and giggles. No, the kills I've made were to prevent someone from perpetuating suffering and death on a mass scale.

Like, JFC, Temple Knights? We had to take them out to stop Thordan from continuing the Dragonsong War that had lasted over 1000 years and had claimed innumerous souls (Both human AND dragon). To say nothing about him trying to gain more power and become a Primal... (While Ystride we took out because she was trying to kill her own daughter. With who knows how many other people she'd put to death for her stupid beliefs?)

Freaking Ilberd? The bloody guy that literally rallied a bunch of people to march them to their death into Baelsar's Wall? AND THEN summoned a Primal with intent to have it just go around and murder people all willy nilly?

Imperials? The people that are literally trying to take over all of Eorzea and wipe out all races they deem "Savages"? With recent reveals showing that the Emperor of the Imperials actually wants to literally destroy all life on several different worlds?

Come on kid... At least think about things for a second... Take account of our motivations behind what we did. The fact that we had to do what we did in order to prevent evil or misguided people from causing harm to many more innocents...

Don't just "Killing people is bad. Therefore you must be bad >:[" logic. Yes, killing people is bad. But sometimes, letting a monster live can be worse.

Or what next, you gonna try and guilt trip me about killing Nidhogg? The murderous ball of hate and vengeance that literally wanted nothing but to cause pain and anguish to every single person in Ishard for all of eternity?

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Originally Posted by Sorimachi87

You know what would have been the ultimate guilt trip? At least for the WoL her/himself.

- Haurchefant -

(Because we technically killed him and considering how visibly hard our WoL was hit by his death, i could see his presence shaken the WoLs mentality)

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Actually, Myste himself is supposed to represent the two people we feel guiltiest about dying. Haurchefant and Ysayle. He's an Elezen, just like the two of them, with Ysayle's long hair and Haurchefant's hair color.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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The thing is, while you, the player, may not feel guilty about taking those lives, it's implied that the WoL does.
Myste is just like Fray, he's a manifestation of the emotions that the WoL is trying to suppress or ignore.
We just see them as unlikable characters in a video game and their deaths are just the deaths of a character in a video game.
But to our WoL, those are real, living people that they've taken the lives of.

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Originally Posted by Rollout

The thing is, while you, the player, may not feel guilty about taking those lives, it's implied that the WoL does.
Myste is just like Fray, he's a manifestation of the emotions that the WoL is trying to suppress or ignore.
We just see them as unlikable characters in a video game and their deaths are just the deaths of a character in a video game.
But to our WoL, those are real, living people that they've taken the lives of.

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Maybe that angle would work better for me if the WOL was more of an actual character. But really. ILBERD? We didn't even kill Ilberd, Ilberd killed HIMSELF as part of his summoning ritual. Whether targeted at the player or the WOL, either way the message would have been far more effective if they had some actual sympathetic characters to draw from to make us, or the WOL, feel bad about killing.

The game implies the WOL should feel sympathetic toward Yotsuyu dying in 4.3, but that still doesn't make me give a crap about her. And the WOL isn't enough of a fleshed out independant character for me to feel anything indirectly through the WOL like that.

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Originally Posted by Rollout

The thing is, while you, the player, may not feel guilty about taking those lives, it's implied that the WoL does.
Myste is just like Fray, he's a manifestation of the emotions that the WoL is trying to suppress or ignore.
We just see them as unlikable characters in a video game and their deaths are just the deaths of a character in a video game.
But to our WoL, those are real, living people that they've taken the lives of.

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Except that Ilberd is hated by the WoL, because he was a backstabbing mass murderer.

Except that the WoL didn't kill Ystride, Sid did (At the behest of Rielle).

Except that the Imperial goons were literally trying to kill us in order to allow the Ultima Weapon to be used without resistance.

It's no different to how we killed Nidhogg. Twice. He was a real, living dragon. He was entirely justified in his anger because it was humans that betrayed the peace and murdered his sister to get her eyes.

It's no different to how we killed all those Ascians. They were real, sort of living? People. But they were evil to the core and trying to destroy all life.

That's why the WoL's response to all of this nonsense with Myste wasn't even close to being guilty. It was anger at the fact that Myste was trying to do this. That's why we ended up summoning up Fray and why Sid was also angry at Myste, because both of these people also know that Myste is talking absolute crap and know that you have to do bad things for good reasons.

Heck, even Rielle accepts this fact (Which is why she wants to train in Conjury with E-Sumi-Yan rather than to walk the path alongside Sid and us, she doesn't want to have to make that kind of choice)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Except that Ilberd is hated by the WoL, because he was a backstabbing mass murderer.

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We also didn't kill him. We fought him, and he leaped away, and let himself fall backwards to die in the fall as part of summoning Shinryu. We didn't even actually kill him.

The SB DRK story COULD have worked, it's an interesting idea exploring the ramifications of all those that die in our wake, but as far as an attempted guilt trip go this is a pretty weak selection of characters to pull out regardless of whether it's targeting the player or the WOL.

The point of summoning the villains isn't guilt. It's to show that everyone, hero and villain alike, dies around us. As Myste says:

"Woe betide the man who stands against the Weapon of Light, for death is his reward. Death for him and his kin and all he holds dear.
Woe betide the man who stands with the Weapon of Light, for death is his reward. Death for him and his kin and all he holds dear."

This then ties into Fray's return. Fray is the side of the WoL's psyche that's sick of always being at everyone's beck and call and wants to be unbound, free to pursue their own goals and mete out their own justice. Myste is the side that feels all of the pain and loss and guilt over all of the bloodshed and war that follows the player wherever they go, among enemies, innocents, and allies alike. Basically, Fray doesn't really care about anyone else, while Myste cares about everyone else.

In the end (mostly voiced through Fray, since the player is a Heroic Mime), the WoL has to accept that both sides are part of them, hence the quest's name, "Our Compromise". As Fray says, "Do not seek forgiveness, for it will not ease the burden. It weighs as it should." Even though we stand for the Light, the fact remains that we fight and kill all the time. We can't avoid it, but somebody has to be the hero. We can either break under the weight, or keep moving forward. In the end, the only one who can truly forgive us is ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

We also didn't kill him. We fought him, and he leaped away, and let himself fall backwards to die in the fall as part of summoning Shinryu. We didn't even actually kill him.

The SB DRK story COULD have worked, it's an interesting idea exploring the ramifications of all those that die in our wake, but as far as an attempted guilt trip go this is a pretty weak selection of characters to pull out regardless of whether it's targeting the player or the WOL.

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IMO they should have summoned Moenbryda, Hauchefant, and Ysayle. THAT would have hurt us, badly.

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Originally Posted by Rollout

Actually, Myste himself is supposed to represent the two people we feel guiltiest about dying. Haurchefant and Ysayle. He's an Elezen, just like the two of them, with Ysayle's long hair and Haurchefant's hair color.

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Oh my god. Now that you said it. I rewatched the lvl 70 cutscenes just now. And i can imagine why our WoL looked shocked and rather angry at Ilberds face.
Nonetheless i think actually summoning them would have shaken us a lot more.

I really wonder how the drk story is gonna continue in shadowbringers....

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

IMO they should have summoned Moenbryda, Hauchefant, and Ysayle. THAT would have hurt us, badly.

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Bringing out people we weren't able to save might have been more impactful for me. As it was, bringing out Gaius' lieutenants, the HW and Ilberd didn't get a reaction out of me other than laughing when Ilberd showed up.


EDIT:

I will say though, while I found the execution of the SB DRK story flawed, it was at least better than the PLD SB story. It was a decent Gladiator story but a poor PLD story.

Thing that Myste was trying to point out is that no matter what you do as teh WoL, there is blood on your hands. You kill all who oppose you pretty indiscriminately, and all those who ally with you die just the same. No matter what you do, you're surrounded by death. Myste represents that aspect that youre always at the center of people dying for some reason or another, and perhaps its your fault in some weird self defeating way as youre perpetuating the cycle by existing. Myste wanted to create a world where that wasnt the case, thinking that if you could bring back the dead, atleast for a moment so people can 'resolve' their suffering, you might break the cycle.

Or atleast thats how I read it. Myste was your Guilt over the blood always on your hands, unlike Fray who was just angry that everyone whos weaker than you seems to be using you as a tool when youre clearly more powerful. I do think Fray's quest line was better than Mystes, and I was disappointed that when Fray shows up again, he looks like the knight version and not our Shadowy DRK clone. (I thought it was the coolest beans during hte lvl 50 when Fray 'dies' and reveals a doppleganger version of yourself.)

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Thing that Myste was trying to point out is that no matter what you do as teh WoL, there is blood on your hands. You kill all who oppose you pretty indiscriminately, and all those who ally with you die just the same. No matter what you do, you're surrounded by death. Myste represents that aspect that youre always at the center of people dying for some reason or another, and perhaps its your fault in some weird self defeating way as youre perpetuating the cycle by existing.

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Though, that line of thought is flawed too.

Since, we're surrounded by death... Because we're actually taking part in trying to save the world.

We could literally, retire and spend our days fishing in Limsa Lominsa and no-one would die because of us (Well... Except all the fish we catch). But we don't. We go take down the bad people who seek to bring about the deaths of countless innocents, killing them when its necessary (If we take the Black Mage quests at face value, Mr Catboi gets mad at us because instead of merely incapacitating people like we usually do, the people we took out died (Note: This was not our fault and it was actually the fact that these people were practicing Black Magic without Soul Crystals and so had literally burned their souls as a result)).

While also, being on the frontlines, with allies, some of whom die because we can't save everyone (With really, the biggest guilt trip being Hauchefant because, due to us not being fully aware of our surroundings, he ended up sacrificing himself to protect us) even though, we often do try and that's what the entire DRK questlines have been about before SB, using the Abyss to protect others.

Like, the initial quests for DRK from level 30-50, it's all about us not giving into the darkness and using the power we unlock for good, not to cause harm. It's the reason why we ended up having to fight Fray/our Darkside to assert our control over the power and not succumb to being evil - Which is why we get pardoned from the crime of heresy due to our whole "Talking to corpses" thing, because everyone there knows that we're inherently good and that despite the fact we've been dabbling in dark arts, they know that we'll be using these "Evil" powers for good.

With the 50-60 quests being all about Sid discovering that he walks the path to protect those he cares about (That being Rielle) instead of just revelling in combat. Heck, we even get asked the question of why we walk the path and have options that are basically "To protect my friends/family/innocents"

So... Why is Myste trying to point out that we're "Killing" people? When, literally all the quests prior have being about reinforcing the fact that we aren't bloodthirsty and literally want to just use our powers to protect others? With other people's deaths being of their own volition as they sacrificed themselves for the greater good (Moenbryda, Papalymo, Hauchefant, Ysayle. Technically, Gosetsu at that point as it wasn't until a later patch did we get the quests where he and Tsuyu returned), only one of those deaths was directly related to us - The others were for us AND our allies.

Also... Again... It would have made far more sense and had a far larger impact if Myste simply brought out Hauchefant. The person who died because we weren't observant enough. Who died to protect US, when as a DRK, we have always been about protecting OTHERS.

Rather than trying to put together this weak point about our "Killing of others" (By summoning 2 people whom, we didn't kill and would have died even if we weren't there :rolleyes: Since, Sid would have hunted down Ystride alone to protect Rielle and it was all part of Ilberd's plan to kill himself to summon Shinryu) and then commenting about how "People who ally with us keep dying" without actually showing anything at all that would prove that (Which, I guess is due to the fact that literally, only Hauchefant died as a result of us...)

Like, Myste's point is that people have died, lots of people and they deserve a chance to live again. So his plan is to absorb the aether from beasts and create the simulacrum of everyone who has ever died so they can continue to "Live" so no-one need say farewell.

He also accuses us of being overcome by our Darkside with a taste for blood (When he says "...Shall I ask you the same? Who holds the reins?" to the question "Say your name, your real name")

To which Fray ends up stepping in BECAUSE we refused to succumb to our Darkside and outright kill Myste. As he mentions "...A compromise, I suppose? Our dear friend here refused to let me take the reins, but I wasn't about to stand idly by while that imbecile tries to do...whatever it was he was trying to do." (After Sid states "What in the seven hells is this!?" after he appears)

Meanwhile, the ironic thing about it, is that Rielle of all people is the one who makes sense when she responds to Myste's question "But what of the lost? Do they not deserve to live again?" by stating:

"They do. In our hearts and our souls and our memories. No one likes having to say good-bye. But it's...it's a part of life. That's what makes the time we share together so precious... You can't obsess over the mistakes of the past, or you'll lose sight of the future. Of the people still with us, who need us more than ever."

Emphasis on that last part, which is literally the only part of the SB questline that actually makes sense after the HW quests. Since it's talking about protecting those that we care about, the literal theme of DRK quests up until SB when it randomly became about this weird Aether-Vampire and his dream of a world full of ghosts because... People die and that's unfair?

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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But this is kind of the point. Myste's view is incredibly flawed. We're not supposed to think "Yeah, myste is right about this." His view of the world is skewed, much like Fray's view is.

As for Myste, While we do what we do cause its for the greater good in protecting people, its still resulting in people dying. Blood is on our hands directly or indirectly, even in the pursuit of a better world. the villains we kill, They still have families, friends, lovers, etc. they suffer for our actions too. Myste was trying to be like "Well if people didnt die, then suffering wouldnt occur." It's totally misguided. Rielle has the right of it. In Myste's view, The fact that our actions keep leading people die and suffer is an issue. In his eyes, theres a miles long trail of dead bodies in our wake and the guilt of that comes with it.

Think of it this way, If were not a blood thirsty avenger, but fight to protect, then why is it that even in that regards, people still end up dead. If our goal is to protect and preserve, shouldnt we avoid combat? We say we're peace loving and looking to save and protect, but man, weve killed hundreds of people in the course of the campaign. Who wanted to use violence and power to rule? Fray. We're still doing that, so Myste is asking if were really in charge. But as I said, Myste's view is incredibly flawed, and frankly the story doesnt illustrate his point clearly.

The problem remains that if a character's view point is entirely, literally 100% false, then that view point is meaningless to the story.
Myste goes through this entire song and dance to accuse us of being evil, and the conclusion is a glorified version of the WoL going "nope" and walking off.
It would have made for a much better story had Myste been at least partially correct. We only fight to protect, but we do enjoy the fighting. We only kill when necessary, but watching some irredeemable bastard fall at our feet is still satisfying. But because the WoL is portrayed as a paragon of sweetness and sunshine, the whole point falls flat.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Except that Ilberd is hated by the WoL, because he was a backstabbing mass murderer.

Except that the Imperial goons were literally trying to kill us in order to allow the Ultima Weapon to be used without resistance.

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Ilberd represents every single Ala Mhigan that were left by the wayside. He wasn't alone on that wall, but he's the only one with a face.

Those Imperial soldiers were told that the Ultima weapon was the key to ending the threat of the Eikons, that basically 99.99% of the Imperial population believes is the sole reason behind Garlemald's aggressive actions towards 'less civilized' nations.

FF14 may not be the most well written narrative but it explores pretty common themes. I'm still not entirely certain the Warrior of Light is the good guy in the grand scheme of things.

One thing to think on is that, when it comes down to it both Fray and Myste are representatives of both the thoughts and feelings the WoL has taken to an extreme. Myste's actions make more sense when it comes down to the fact that he/she represents the guilt over the amount of death left in the WoL's wake AND ONLY that guilt. There are many reasons we do what we do but these aren't quite taken into account by Myst, same as to why Fray's initial lvl 50 and below appearance doesn't quite take into account why we bother to try and help people instead of solely fighting for ourselves/leaving them to figure out their own damn problems. The WoL themselves has that balance and is part of why they prevail against both of them.

Yeah alot of people the WoL has killed or seen die or right bastards. Doesn't mean we can't feel guilty over their lives, or the lives of their loved ones, or the lives of those they led astray caught in the crossfire. I'd also say the appearance of the WoD group helps represent that guilt more seeing as they were only antagonists rather than someone who could be more easily seen as an evil bad guy.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

We say we're peace loving and looking to save and protect, but man, weve killed hundreds of people in the course of the campaign.

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We haven't.

It's not often that we actually KILL enemies.

Just like how players don't actually "Die" when they fall (They just go unconscious and that how Raise skills work. They don't bring people back from the dead, they simply rouse people from a state of unconsciousness)

It's what I was referring to with the Black Mage questline.

Much of the enemies we beat, we simply knock unconscious. It's usually specific set pieces where we actually kill a notable person.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Also... Again... It would have made far more sense and had a far larger impact if Myste simply brought out Hauchefant. The person who died because we weren't observant enough. Who died to protect US, when as a DRK, we have always been about protecting OTHERS.

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Myste himself is a young Haurchefant (literally, a model they made for one of the Tales of the Dragonsong War) with Ysayle's hair. He's been there staring us in the face all along.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

One thing to think on is that, when it comes down to it both Fray and Myste are representatives of both the thoughts and feelings the WoL has taken to an extreme. Myste's actions make more sense when it comes down to the fact that he/she represents the guilt over the amount of death left in the WoL's wake AND ONLY that guilt. There are many reasons we do what we do but these aren't quite taken into account by Myst, same as to why Fray's initial lvl 50 and below appearance doesn't quite take into account why we bother to try and help people instead of solely fighting for ourselves/leaving them to figure out their own damn problems. The WoL themselves has that balance and is part of why they prevail against both of them.

Yeah alot of people the WoL has killed or seen die or right bastards. Doesn't mean we can't feel guilty over their lives, or the lives of their loved ones, or the lives of those they led astray caught in the crossfire. I'd also say the appearance of the WoD group helps represent that guilt more seeing as they were only antagonists rather than someone who could be more easily seen as an evil bad guy.

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Yes but if that's the case it would have done the message a lot of good to have some actual sympathetic people show up in the finale. Hell some of those people we didn't even kill like Ilberd and the warriors of darkness. We had only a net positive influence on the warriors of darkness by the end despite coming to blows with them. Even if what you say was the INTENT of the quest I feel it falls flat in execution.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yes but if that's the case it would have done the message a lot of good to have some actual sympathetic people show up in the finale. Hell some of those people we didn't even kill like Ilberd and the warriors of darkness. We had only a net positive influence on the warriors of darkness by the end despite coming to blows with them. Even if what you say was the INTENT of the quest I feel it falls flat in execution.

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Oh trust me I agree that they should have done that as well. But atleast for me it also makes a bit of sense that Myste would bring out the people they did because they were also all powerful fighters, given they had to defend themselves from us as well. By that point they were already losing, it was their last ditch effort to convince us their way was right.

Bringing out my old thread about the drk questline... :3

I just finished the lvl 80 questline for darkknight and i gotta say. It has me emotionally on edge positively.
Gotta say after this questline.. I have played with many protagonists in video games and MMOs but no one, absolutely NO ONE has me invest so much emotionally and everything like our warrior of light / darkness.

Thank you for this wonderful questline that dives into the psychology and darkside of the warrior.

Being a hero isn't all great after all... :)

Aoi