Dungeons and iLvL pre 70 problems

hi i come to the forums to complain about a VERY serious issue regarding dungeons that causes toxic between the group and that is iLvL requirements to all 15-69 dungeons

The problem is once u hit max lvl you can join all dungeons from 15-69 naked meaning since your max lvl on 1 job you can lvl up an altetnative job on the same character and ignore all ilvl requirements for that second job your lvling

this causes a lot of stress in lower lvl dungeons as a healer and tank.... nothing worst then healing a paper tank and get blamed for not being a good healer when its legit the tank who is wearing lvl 50 gear in a lvl 65 and is nearly 100 ilvl below the requiement for the dungeon itself

this cause toxic behaviour within dungeons and onw of the reason why players do not tank or heal in dungeons due tothis added stress

please look into fixing lower lvl dungeons to prevent max lvl players ignore the ilvl requirements on other jobs..... or allow max lvl players be able to purchase gear with lvls up with them when lvling another job (not bonus exp just stats/ilvl levels up)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yhisa

The problem is once u hit max lvl you can join all dungeons from 15-69 naked meaning since your max lvl on 1 job you can lvl up an altetnative job on the same character and ignore all ilvl requirements for that second job your lvling

---

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but this is incorrect. No one gets to ignore the iLevel requirements because there are no iLevel requirements for leveling dungeons (i.e. any dungeon that isn't lv50, 60, or 70). This problem has nothing to do with max level players. Heck, I would argue that newer players are more likely to screw it up, particularly in the lv51 and lv61 dungeons since the iLevel jump from the previous leveling dungeon is huge.


With that said, I would definitely like to see them put minimum iLevel requirements on leveling dungeons. In the mean time, if someone is drastically under-geared, then vote kick them. I doubt this is a prolific problem.

If someone is way below the recommended ilevel for the dungeon, ask them if they can equip better gear at the moment. If they won't, you have the option to leave, be kicked (like request to be kicked), or try to kick them (which I really only recommend if they're trolling and not just new or something). It's unfortunate, but it's usually still possible to heal someone who's undergeared.

There should be ilevel requirements for leveling dungeons, but I don't think "max level players" running low level dungeons naked is really that much of a prominent issue.

Um, well...I'm not even sure I'm comprehending what the OP is on about. But No you cannot ignore ilevel at all, ever...when queueing for a dungeon or roulette...ever. I mean, for sure you can ditch yer gear once yer in but sometimes it's done out of necessity, say when the high level healer pulls off the low level tank for like...breathing...other than that it's trolling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

This problem has nothing to do with max level players. Heck, I would argue that newer players are more likely to screw it up, particularly in the lv51 and lv61 dungeons since the iLevel jump from the previous leveling dungeon is huge.

---

The problem is definitely not isolated to newer players. There are max level people leveling alt jobs who can't be bothered to keep their gear up. I've literally been told, "Nah I just want to get to 70 ASAP" after suggesting people put on some real gear, or even to do their job quests. Once I got matched with a BLM in The Vault (57+) who didn't have any of his job abilities after Blizzard III and was wearing iLv100-120 gear. He had several jobs at 70.

So to say as an absolute that this problem doesn't involve max level players is mistaken.


The extent of this problem will of course vary by data center and by the frequency that one queues without bringing friends along (exposing oneself to the possibility of ending up with a problematic party member), however, it is at the very least a problem that exists, and one that could be easily mitigated by just adding a min iLv requirement to each leveling dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

So to say as an absolute that this problem doesn't involve max level players is mistaken.

---

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I certainly did not mean to imply that max level players never do this. The OP indicated that being max level somehow conferred benefits that make someone more able to do this, and my point was that being max level is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Players of all levels are capable of doing this.

The only instance of this that I remember well was a tank in the 51 dungeon, wearing primarily lv44~49 pink "Aetherial" gear. The dude couldn't last 3 hits before dying. Did he have a level 70 job? I don't remember. It's not relevant. Some people are just ignorant and/or unhelpful.

This problem is roughly equivalent to people who go in with nearly-or-completely broken gear. Should we also suggest putting a repair NPC at the entrance of dungeons? It would be nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I certainly did not mean to imply that max level players never do this. The OP indicated that being max level somehow conferred benefits that make someone more able to do this, and my point was that being max level is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The only instance of this that I remember well was a tank in the 51 dungeon, wearing primarily lv44~49 pink "Aetherial" gear. The dude couldn't last 3 hits before dying. Did he have a level 70 job? I don't remember. It's not relevant. Some people are just ignorant and/or unhelpful.

This problem is roughly equivalent to people who go in with nearly-or-completely broken gear. Should we also suggest putting a repair NPC at the entrance of dungeons? It would be nice.

---

I think the main reason I've seen this discussion centering around alt jobs in the past has to do with the fact that the MSQ showers you with at least decent on-level gear, so when you're running through it for the first time, gear should only rarely be a problem, and sprouts that go into dungeons undergeared are often doing so deliberately. In contrast, when you're leveling your alt jobs, you don't have that influx of decent gear coming at you regularly (or at least, not at the same rate), and the MSQ has trained you to not bother seeking out good gear, so a lot of players leveling alt jobs will go in undergeared because they simply don't realize that gear makes a massive difference. Of course, anyone can enter leveling dungeons horrifically undergeared, which is the primary problem here and is absolutely something that needs to be fixed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

Once I got matched with a BLM in The Vault (57+) who didn't have any of his job abilities after Blizzard IV and was wearing iLv100-120 gear. He had several jobs at 70.

---

Alright, while I agree with your other points, this is a little confusing to me; the gear ilvl is bad, but Blizzard IV is the highest level ability BLMs will have access to in The Vault, as it level syncs you down to 58. Did you mean Blizzard III?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arrhin

Um, well...I'm not even sure I'm comprehending what the OP is on about. But No you cannot ignore ilevel at all, ever...when queueing for a dungeon or roulette...ever. I mean, for sure you can ditch yer gear once yer in but sometimes it's done out of necessity, say when the high level healer pulls off the low level tank for like...breathing...other than that it's trolling.

---

This only applies for level 50, level 60, and level 70 dungeons. All ARR, HW, and SB leveling dungeons (e.g., level 15~47, level 51~59, and level 61~69) don't have item level requirements, so you literally can queue into Castrum Abania (level 69 dungeon) as a level 69/70 player with just your weapon equipped (you don't even need a job stone on).

It becomes an issue because you get players in Sirensong Sea (level 61 dungeon) with i200 HW artifact gear on (the gear given to you in the SB MSQ is HQ i255 gear, so you're already 55 item levels below that). The game lets them do it, despite how much of a hinderance it is.

Leveling dungeons honestly need item level requirements. And I think something should also be done about NQ White gear, because as you level they get worse and worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraph522

Alright, while I agree with your other points, this is a little confusing to me; the gear ilvl is bad, but Blizzard IV is the highest level ability BLMs will have access to in The Vault, as it level syncs you down to 58. Did you mean Blizzard III?

---

I did mean Blizzard III, sorry. No Thunder III, Flare, or Heavensward abilities. Post edited.

I'm under the impression that one of the things really holding this feature back is the fact that a chunk of the quest gear you get given actually comes from side quests. MSQ doesn't hook you up with a complete set, so setting a minimum that isn't an inconvenience becomes troublesome.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be pretty easy to just pick a decently average number and roll with it. But, the fact that they haven't suggests, to me, that they don't really want to set it to anything that might cause a player to flounder around trying to scrounge up the gear.

One solution would be to remove all the gear rewards and just condense it all down into a singular coffer of some appropriate ilvl set. Something tells me they don't really want to remove the gear rewards from the side quests, as it serves as some added incentive to learn about the area you're in.

Another option, which would do little for ARR dungeons, would be to at least set the minimum to whatever the previous minimum was. You need an ilvl of 90 to do Steps of Faith prior to HW, so everything from Dusk Vigil onwards should be set to ilvl90. If you really wanted to be clever, you could take just the gear rewarded from MSQ and calculate the ilvl you could achieve from that, with the ilvl 90 gear for everything the MSQ doesn't reward.
The minimums would be incredibly low, quite likely not truly solving much, but they would still be enforcing a minimum, while still satisfying the dev desire to just let the player roll through without stopping and shopping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This only applies for level 50, level 60, and level 70 dungeons. All ARR, HW, and SB leveling dungeons (e.g., level 15~47, level 51~59, and level 61~69) don't have item level requirements, so you literally can queue into Castrum Abania (level 69 dungeon) as a level 69/70 player with just your weapon equipped (you don't even need a job stone on).

It becomes an issue because you get players in Sirensong Sea (level 61 dungeon) with i200 HW artifact gear on (the gear given to you in the SB MSQ is HQ i255 gear, so you're already 55 item levels below that). The game lets them do it, despite how much of a hinderance it is.

Leveling dungeons honestly need item level requirements. And I think something should also be done about NQ White gear, because as you level they get worse and worse.

---

I just had the pleasure of being grouped with a paladin wearing ~150 gear in Shisui of the Violet Tides. He had the least hp out of the group, both me and the other dps would overaggro constantly even while spamming my enmity cooldowns.

I left after the second boss which we barely killed with several deaths because we were taking tankbusters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

I'm under the impression that one of the things really holding this feature back is the fact that a chunk of the quest gear you get given actually comes from side quests. MSQ doesn't hook you up with a complete set, so setting a minimum that isn't an inconvenience becomes troublesome. . . .The minimums would be incredibly low, quite likely not truly solving much, but they would still be enforcing a minimum, while still satisfying the dev desire to just let the player roll through without stopping and shopping.

---

They need to do something. Because otherwise you end up with stories like the one directly above mine and like the one in this thread. The developers are more concerned with not hindering a progressing player... yet seem to not care at all about hindering the players that get the courtesy of having said undergeared players in their parties.

At the very least, the first dungeon of an expansion (e.g., Dusk Vigil, Sirensong Sea) should have an item level that matches or is just slightly above the last Expert Dungeon of the previous expansion (e.g., Amdapor Keep HM/Wanderer's Palace HM; Baelsar's Wall/Sohm Al HM). It's funny how Baelsar's Wall requires i230... and then Sirensong Sea doesn't require anything - and Baelsar's Wall is tied to the MSQ.

I don't think i230 min would be enough for Sirensong Sea, but they need to do something.

Job stones should also be required past, say, Titan or Brayflox's Longstop. (I'm assuming that requiring them in Haukke Manor could cause issues, since you can queue for that at 29, but Brayflox requires 32.) There's no excuse for deliberately removing most of your best abilities and hindering a random group, yet I still see it sometimes. Had a marauder in World of Darkness earlier.....why?

Skilled players can sometimes enjoy the challenge of playing as base class. But, it was also a slightly different scenario before role actions, and subsequently allowing all ten of them. Previously, it could be a bit of alternate fun rolling with cross class skills not available to the job.

Would a min ilvl requirement of 10 below the gear drops from a dungeon (like how it is for the lvl cap dungeons IIRC) be adequate? Is it too high for the casual gamer, or too low because of that defense threshold in lvl x5 dungeons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Job stones should also be required past, say, Titan or Brayflox's Longstop. (I'm assuming that requiring them in Haukke Manor could cause issues, since you can queue for that at 29, but Brayflox requires 32.) There's no excuse for deliberately removing most of your best abilities and hindering a random group, yet I still see it sometimes. Had a marauder in World of Darkness earlier.....why?

---

I'd personally go with Titan NM as the barrier point for job stones; Brayflox is close enough to the lvl 30 point that I'd be willing to let it slide, though I'm not against making that the barrier point if others want it to be more stringent. Still wouldn't stop people from failing to do their job quests after the first one (had a DRK that loaded into Stone Vigil having done only the job unlock quest and none after - he didn't even have Darkside), but there's only so much we can do to stop people from making those kinds of mistakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Would a min ilvl requirement of 10 below the gear drops from a dungeon (like how it is for the lvl cap dungeons IIRC) be adequate? Is it too high for the casual gamer, or too low because of that defense threshold in lvl x5 dungeons?

---

I think that requirement might work; the major point at which Augmented Shire gear becomes untenable for tanks is in Doma Castle, the lvl 67 dungeon, and the requirement for that dungeon would be ilvl 272 in this case, just beyond the Augmented Shire ilvl. Of course, I'd also like to see that not just be a min ilvl requirement like the endgame dungeons have, but one that requires all weapons and armor to meet that minimum, as that would still be easy to go in undergeared otherwise.

Ill just drop that....

https://s16.directupload.net/images/190324/cpgutyvi.jpg

Its been a series now for some days that level or mentor roulett throws me in such messes. LotA with an blm using lv 30 stuff THIRTY! thats like, might as well /afk. ofc we wiped several times as some were new/semi afk but not having decent dps did not help.

Just now i did a trial and it got me tsukoyomi story.... 30 min in progress, 30% or smt echo. But the sch had that 300 book, the monk the 300 wep.... like wtf... we just could not beat it, they sucked and with too few ppl to stack it got too much - well and i had like time for 2 pulls >_>


...I also did Sigmascape with an fc mate... we saw several ppl using 290 jobgear... some even some 273 gear.


There has to be a hard barrier, some absolute min lvl per slot and an overall avarage... and job quests.


Edit: just now i did another roulet, got tsuko again.... an blm had 290 weapon, chest pants and some random other stuff, just bought enough 380 to get that 335 needed >_>