Dungeon+ system?

Leveling up there's always an abundance of these great dungeons that never really seem to meet their full potential.

Could a system that just raises the difficulty of these dungeons linearly be beneficial to the level cap of FF14?

I know some dungeons get hard or extreme modes but they aren't really the same dungeon, same layout but usually different bosses. I'd love infinitely scaling dungeons, would add so many different options at level cap for dungeons you could do. Would be okay if you had to manually find a group for these as well.

NOTE: Awesome dungeons like Doma castle, Ala mhigo, Castrum Abania... would be really cool for all these dungeons to stay relevant throughout the expansion they came from and it's a system you could bring easily into future expansions and dungeons.

Something something Mythic+ part 402.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Something something Mythic+ part 402.

---

If there's lots of posts like this, maybe they should test the waters with a system like it?

I mean you don't think it would be cool to keep dungeons relevant?

You would have to give people some incentive to run them though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

You would have to give people some incentive to run them though.

---

For sure! I wouldn't know where to begin for rewards. Materia or tomes maybe?

Materia wouldnt work i think, they are too easy to get otherwise. Tomes perhaps but not shure since its not that hard to cap.
Perhaps some glamour gear and have something along the line of a lightfarm where higher levels give more light.

See also: minimum ilvl.

Nobody uses it.

I wouldn't mind a Extreme style dungeon, however I would not want it to just be the same as the original dungeon. I would prefer new mobs, new bosses, new mechanics, and new loot. To get what you are after, you could do X dugneon on normal mode, then hard, then Ex, then Ex +, Ex ++, etc ... For all EX and up, the mobs and bosses would remain the same, however the mechanics would be altered in each individual run. By this I mean, you could run Snowcloak Ex 20 different times and each run would be a different variation of mechanics you might see. For example on the first run you would see the first boss use 3 different mechanics of which being 2 different types of AoE's and the third being tank buster. The next run, you could see 5 mechanics, none of which being the same as the first run for the same boss. The third run you may only see 1 mechanic and it could be one you have seen before, or one you haven't.

Of course there would be a limit to the types of mechanics a single boss may have (I am thinking 10 being the max), and you could see any number and variations of these mechanics on a given run. Every level of ex (ex, ex+, ex ++, etc..) would have a different set of bosses, but each run of Ex ++ would have the same bosses, just variations of mechanics.

As far as rewards, you could potentially get special mounts, hairstyles, special dyes, minions, rare drops such as top tier armor upgrade mats, and glamour gear.

Maybe you could make Ex +++ and higher drop top tier armor or weapons? I don't see this one being very well perceived, as raiders already complain about the relic weapon being able to rival their precious raid tier weapons. Heaven forbid other people could get top tier armor/weapons a different way (eye roll).

All for it, but I'd hope they go the extra mile to give it unique rewards, ideally in such a way as to come into a progression system of its own that fits its difficulty progression.

While alot of them get steamrolled, I do run into 2 group types frequently:
1. Newbies - they don't play their class well because they are still learning the game
2. Bad players - not newbies. They don't have a leaf, often have bad/empty gear slots and still play at a newbie level.


Both of these groups would totally fail if normal dungeons got harder. But all of group2 would always queue for the harder dungeons because of better exp.

Secret World Legends has a system similar to this where the base dungeon is considered the "story mode" and then there are Elite 1-9 versions of that dungeon that progressively scale upward in difficulty. Elite 1 is only slightly more difficult than story mode, while 9 is like a step above savage, where few players ever go. I think Elite 6 is where you start seeing different or more aggressive mechanics. Each tier has a minimum level requirement.

The rewards scale up with each difficulty tier. In SWL, gear is upgraded through melding (adding xp to a piece of gear), and each tier gives higher concentrations of these distillates. Once you reach certain intervals, you get new gear drops with special effects that are attainable from boss kills.

The biggest reason for trying to complete all tiers is achievements that reward vanity items, pets and titles.

You are all forgetting that the entire dungeon system is built on the basis of rewarding higher level players who queue up for earlier instances to aid new players.

There can never be a reward for some elite version of those dungeons that would draw people away from the current dungeon instances, which are an integral part of game play.

None of the other MMOs mentioned here require you to engage in a dungeon instance as you level, so they can get away with such features.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by van_arn

See also: minimum ilvl.

Nobody uses it.

---

Indeed. It's not that SQEX hasn't tried to put in challenge. It's that players are too hopelessly obsessed with rewards to actually interact with those challenges.

I would much rather a system where rewards scale. Unsynced should never have given rewards. It's an easy mode to help people clear the fight for story purposes. Why they still allow it to have drops (especially mounts) and count for WT, I really don't know.

As it stands, it's very hard to fill a party for MinIL content, and virtually impossible to get a competent party for it. Most people are there to experience MinIL as a gimmick, to see what old content was like, or take a nostalgia trip. The players who are actually capable of clearing it are usually too busy spamming the latest raid tiers. This in turn means that even less people do MinIL - after all, it virtually never clears.

I'll never understand why people min/max in a game where gear makes next to no difference. It affects the speed you clear the most recent ~5-8 pieces of content. And that's it. You can still clear the content without it, and for anything synced/MinIL, it makes little difference, with the exception of getting better layouts of base stats on gear. I'll admit that it feels good to feel like your character is stronger. But it comes at the cost of depreciating the content.

If they gave us the option to do MinIL for the most recent raid tiers, I would prefer that. Because as a healer, I would prefer to learn and keep a rotation based on minimum stats, rather than learn a rotation for an overgeared party which I then have to change when I come back and do the content on MinIL later. (And yes, being ~10-20 iLevels over the minimum does classify as overgeared. It can remove the need for various casts throughout a fight).

Something needs to be done for sure.
The formula of dungeons as is now - totaly unchalenging trash just consuming time between bossfights - is getting more and more obsolete.

Maybe Shadowbringers will breath fresh air into it, if not, well there are other games.

with dungeons the dev team would rather come up with new ideas for a new dungeon and tune them to an appropriate ilvl. they've never been a fan of just "turning up the numbers".

well so long as it upgrade by 50 lvls to be able 2 join it. so sasha would be 56 ...

and you get unique tomes to get armor that glows or has special effects in it like increase dmg 2 humanoids or beast etc and ya id support it

I'm hoping something is in the works now that they introduced doing dungeons with npcs for bads and will be releasing afterwards.

I think something like this would be nice if they worked it into the expert roulette. The level 50, 60 and 70 dungeons are already tuned to have the right amount of mechanics for an "expert" dungeon, so they just need to have their hp and damage values bumped up to the appropriate level. What I'm thinking is to have the 2 dungeons (or whatever) that are most recent plus one older dungeon that changes on a weekly basis to add a bit of variety to expert roulette. The rewards would be the matching rewards for the current expert roulette.

Leveling dungeons are fine imo and there is plenty of chance to re-play them while leveling other classes.

As far as the potential for more difficult dungeons, I'm not in favour of just pushing the numbers up on existing dungeons. I'm also don't want to see random mechanics or chance determining the difficulty; we already have deep dungeon and that is what it is. The thing that makes this games dungeons so good is that they are designed as a whole with planned out encounters and mechanics. I'd much rather see new dungeons (or things like the Hard versions of dungeons where they are re-made into new dungeons) that are designed as a whole with the higher difficulty in mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by number473

I'd much rather see new dungeons (or things like the Hard versions of dungeons where they are re-made into new dungeons) that are designed as a whole with the higher difficulty in mind.

---

and this is why we don't have +type dungeons lol

all their efforts go towards new stuff instead of minorly adjusting old stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrWho2010

and this is why we don't have +type dungeons lol

all their efforts go towards new stuff instead of minorly adjusting old stuff.

---

"Minorly adjusting old stuff" isn't what's being requested here, though. The cost of a dungeon+ system is almost entirely frontloaded: you build the system to thereafter affect any dungeon automatically. Only when balancing around non-granular reward efficiencies is much of any precise tuning required. With the one system, you can increase the time which one may spend, with due reward, in any dungeon tenfold or better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Minorly adjusting old stuff" isn't what's being requested here, though. The cost of a dungeon+ system is almost entirely frontloaded: you build the system to thereafter affect any dungeon automatically. Only when balancing around non-granular reward efficiencies is much of any precise tuning required. With the one system, you can increase the time which one may spend, with due reward, in any dungeon tenfold or better.

---

Except almost/pretty much every type of instanced/dungeon/trial is a unique experience. Sure mechanics are reused/repurposed but the devs have never outright just done the exact same thing over again. there's always something different. This is how they do things. gonna take a lot for them to change their mindset if you ask me and it's gonna take more than a few threads on a forum.

the way i would do a mythic type deal is this:

-just keep the same bosses and layouts yet tweak the mobs and bosses with new attacks, this'll save those precious resources
-take 1or2 ideas from potd, like status effects and traps(not the pox, ffs not the pox)
-link them to a relic weapon and armor development system
-to stop max lvl players from running exclusively these make them token based, getting tokens from normal dungeon roulette runs(1 token) or normal dungeons in general(1/2 token). that way those players are still baited into the normal player pool
-finally, this may seem mean but have 2 fully lvled jobs, but they cant be the same type, so you'd need either a dps and tank or healer and dps, that way players know more strategy overall(hopefully)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyxn607

I wouldn't mind a Extreme style dungeon, however I would not want it to just be the same as the original dungeon. I would prefer new mobs, new bosses, new mechanics, and new loot. To get what you are after, you could do X dugneon on normal mode, then hard, then Ex, then Ex +, Ex ++, etc ... For all EX and up, the mobs and bosses would remain the same, however the mechanics would be altered in each individual run. By this I mean, you could run Snowcloak Ex 20 different times and each run would be a different variation of mechanics you might see. For example on the first run you would see the first boss use 3 different mechanics of which being 2 different types of AoE's and the third being tank buster. The next run, you could see 5 mechanics, none of which being the same as the first run for the same boss. The third run you may only see 1 mechanic and it could be one you have seen before, or one you haven't.

Of course there would be a limit to the types of mechanics a single boss may have (I am thinking 10 being the max), and you could see any number and variations of these mechanics on a given run. Every level of ex (ex, ex+, ex ++, etc..) would have a different set of bosses, but each run of Ex ++ would have the same bosses, just variations of mechanics.

As far as rewards, you could potentially get special mounts, hairstyles, special dyes, minions, rare drops such as top tier armor upgrade mats, and glamour gear.

Maybe you could make Ex +++ and higher drop top tier armor or weapons? I don't see this one being very well perceived, as raiders already complain about the relic weapon being able to rival their precious raid tier weapons. Heaven forbid other people could get top tier armor/weapons a different way (eye roll).

---

NO thanks far too much can go wrong with this idea. *cough*Wow*cough* DiabloIII *cough* just no.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrWho2010

Except almost/pretty much every type of instanced/dungeon/trial is a unique experience. Sure mechanics are reused/repurposed but the devs have never outright just done the exact same thing over again. there's always something different. This is how they do things. gonna take a lot for them to change their mindset if you ask me and it's gonna take more than a few threads on a forum.

---

This has nothing to do with what the devs have done thus far. It wouldn't need to be requested if it was.

Dungeon+ content is simply a system of scoring and scaling. It does not have content in and of itself. It's like adding a ladder system to something; it doesn't necessarily, or even likely, change the thing it's been added to.

There are up to two parts, generally speaking, in any new content's development costs: costs in code and costs in placement/value-setting. The costs in code for dungeons, at this point, comes down almost solely to any new mechanics, which are at this point few and far between. (Graphical optimizations probably account for more, but you get the idea.) The majority of their time spent is on the art and simply placing the mobs and setting their properties.

Thus far we've seen a huge amount of front-loaded or systemic (code-heavy) expense in the form of Eureka, Diadem, or Gold Saucer games that, frankly, haven't seen high usage or positive reactions relative to those contents' development cost, so far as we can make an educated guess, and often are seen as wasteful compared to simply adding on more dungeons despite, say, the frequently-stated comments that dungeons are growing stale. By taking the time to attach a bit of code to any and all dungeons through a newly available mode that makes those dungeons more worth rerunning -- and at a competitive and/or progressive level at that -- the devs can reap potentially huge time-played benefits, both in quantity and quality with relatively little development time.

There is of course far more that we can spend time on to increase attractiveness even further, but the essential concept itself tends to be ridiculously efficient.

and then again it comes down to what rewards. there's nothing i can think of that we don't already get in game that would incentivize players to do this kind of content. leaderboards don't interest me. we already have enough kinds of tokens for everything under the sun. titles? meh.

I've been asking for something familiar since i started back in ARR 2.0 and it's so easy to implement that im going insane over it.
Everyone thought (in my circle atleast) that the minimum ilvl mode was gonna be the big entry to this, but no. It never happend sadly.

It doesn't have to be harder difficulty of the dungeons even, just challenges in their current state.
I use this example as i've used countless times but i try to keep it short.

Hullbreaker Isle
Basically you could have an achievement where you have to beat Sasquatch in the minimum ilvl mode without ever feeding him one banana.
Beat Sjoorm on minimum ilvl without taking bubbles
Beat Kraken on minimum ilvl without allowing him to drag his tentacles back into water
Beat Hullbreaker Isle on minimum ilvl in 15 minutes or less.
That's 4 achievements for 1 dungeon. Earning all 4 could reward you a specific title related to Hullbreaker Isle.

Now you could expand this and have 4 achievements for each dungeon there is and make bundles.
Complete all challenge achievements for all the heavensward lvling dungeons (51-59) to earn a "Heavensward lvler veteran" title or something silly
Complete all challenge achievemnts for all lvl 70 stormblood dungeons to earn a mount or a token that you can exchange for an exclusive glamour to the class you want. To make it flexible you can trade the glamour to other classes whenever you wanted by exchanging each piece to an npc vendor.

The dungeon+ idea is cool and all, but i feel the simple "make it harder" is so outdated. There's so much potential in this tho and they are doing absolutely nothing, it's sad. Because dungeons only require 4 people and there are no new heavy mechanics involved, it's stuff you already know about. You just have to figure out way to deal with the challenges. It would be challenging content that would fit anyone, casuals or hardcore.

Even more simple. Make timed dungeons alone. Beat dungeon x on minimum ilvl in less then 13 minutes to achieve gold, 15 to achieve silver, 20 to achieve bronze.
Get bronze in all dungeons of stormblood and you get an achievement
Get silver in all dungeons of stormblood and you get an achievement + mount
Get gold in all dungeons of stormblood and you get an achievement + exclusive glamour