In regards to the "Warrior of Darkness"; how far is too far?

We have been the Warrior of Light since the beginning. Every threat to Eorzea has been stopped or diminished by us thus far.

Despite this we are now supposed to become the opposite of everything we've fought for. As the "Warrior of Darkness" how far will be too far? A lot of people don't want to play the evildoer or take part in evil deeds.

I can see that this could ultimately cause problems for the player base if some of the quests follow what the Warriors of Darkness' have been doing in the past.

• Terrorizing Beastmen Tribes to summon stronger primals
• Focus on killing the Warrior of Light
• Forming an alliance with the Ascians
• Renouncing their physical forms.

So, what if the player is given a quest akin to "Terrorize the local beastmen tribes to summon X primal"? How would that make you feel? How would you respond? Are you okay with this?

I highly doubt they're going to go far in the direction of actual moral ambiguity with it. More likely we'll end up fighting light aligned bad guys like that angel thing in the trailer rather than terrorizing innocent people. I mean this is the game where we had a job questline that had to bring out ilberd and the heavens ward when trying to make a point about the dark side of what the WOL does for the SB DRK questline. They squandered the chance to have the rebels do anything actually morally questionable in order to defeat the empire in SB. This is the game that made Zenos intentionally unsympathetic to overcorrect for people wanting to side with Gaius in ARR.

I don't expect that being the Warrior of Darkness will turn us into antiheroes doing bad things to save the world, I think it'll mostly end up resulting in a shift in who we fight for the expansion while still making them bad guys we have to stop. Maybe some light aligned entity that WANTS to start a flood of light or something.

I feel you're making two wrongful assumptions here:
First, that the Warrior of Darkness has to be evil. I'm pretty sure thats not the point - they point is that we tipped the scale to much in the favour of the light, by being to heroic. We'll have to find a way to balance that out, without resorting to mass murder.

Which leads me to assumption number 2: That we're gonna like the Warriors of Darkness did before. Remember, that they were desperate in trying to cause a calamity.
I dont think that causing a calamity is our endgoal (...might happen though, judging from the trailer). I expect this to be more in the favour of keeping or restoring a balance, which makes us still the "good guy", just with less primal slaying.
...and less primal summoning, actually - I dont think that provoking Beast Tribes to summon their primals would help our goal of "balance". Same goes for the Ascians: They dont strife balance in our world.

I think you're missunderstanding the terms Light and Darkness in the context of this game. Its not "Good" and "Evil" and you still get to be the hero who saves the world in the end. By now you only realised that saving the world doesnt mean to kill everything that looks remotly like a threat anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I highly doubt they're going to go far in the direction of actual moral ambiguity with it. More likely we'll end up fighting light aligned bad guys like that angel thing in the trailer rather than terrorizing innocent people. I mean this is the game where we had a job questline that had to bring out ilberd and the heavens ward when trying to make a point about the dark side of what the WOL does for the SB DRK questline. They squandered the chance to have the rebels do anything actually morally questionable in order to defeat the empire in SB. This is the game that made Zenos intentionally unsympathetic to overcorrect for people wanting to side with Gaius in ARR.

I don't expect that being the Warrior of Darkness will turn us into antiheroes doing bad things to save the world, I think it'll mostly end up resulting in a shift in who we fight for the expansion while still making them bad guys we have to stop. Maybe some light aligned entity that WANTS to start a flood of light or something.

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I sure hope you're right. However, I could see us going down the antihero path. Imagine if we had to summon a primal to "cause problems" for the Garlean's and other threats.

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Originally Posted by Anger

I sure hope you're right. However, I could see us going down the antihero path. Imagine if we had to summon a primal to "cause problems" for the Garlean's and other threats.

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We've actually done this. Summon a primal to cause trouble for the Garleans, I mean. Or, well, not so much we but rather Ysayle who summons Shiva at the end of HW to buy us some time. And if we want to summon more primals, we could gow down that path again: Befriend the beast tribe, ask them to summon their primal instead of provoking them.

We are, somehow, going to fix this world. And dont fool yourself! You havent been the knight in shining armor this whole time either. You have killed countless beast men (...obviously ONLY because you were provoked!), you have murdered Garleans, as our round table during the last MSQ showed: The people commanding you so far have no idea whats actually going on. All city-states misstreat the beasttribes already. Ul'dah has banned them from the city, Limsa has banned them into those parts of Vylbrand, where nothing grows etc. (despite the beast tribe living there before them).
Our character has been a pawn in this game for a very long time and during that time we havent always been the shiny hero. Well, except of course for the fact that history is written by the winner... and that we won. (Or that thats the story they want to tell us)

The Warrior of Light has always been a powerful political tool for the Eorzean Alliance and its close allies. I suspect that will be played up even further as of Shadowbringers - and hopefully the Eorzean Alliance is forced to adhere to the same standards it insists on holding others accountable for. If Fordola firing on her own troops in a panic is a war crime and the use of chemical weapons is also a war crime then one has to wonder why Hien condemning many a soul in Doma Castle, with no warning, to a painful death through drowning is not also classed as a war crime. It's an incredibly cruel fate and realistically Doma Castle would have been home to non-combatants as well as a significant number of indentured conscripts. Yet for some reason Hien is given a free pass to use such tactics in the name of avoiding bloodshed on his own side, yet when other factions use the exact same reasoning they're condemned for it.

I keep thinking about how ShB’s poster job is DRK, and I think back to the original 30-50 DRK storyline. And I wonder if we’ll see some aspects of that in the way our character behaves.

Perhaps more selfish decisions rather than selfless. Perhaps more resistance at always being used as a sort of pawn for whomever wants to make use of us. Perhaps a desire to return to who we used to be...

Or I could be completely wrong and they chose DRK simply because “Warrior of Darkness and what job better fits ‘Darkness’ other than DRK’.

I’ve always wanted to see the side of our character that is presented in the DRK quest tho... Not necessarily the English edgelord side but the side from the original JP.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Warrior of Light has always been a powerful political tool for the Eorzean Alliance and its close allies. I suspect that will be played up even further as of Shadowbringers - and hopefully the Eorzean Alliance is forced to adhere to the same standards it insists on holding others accountable for. If Fordola firing on her own troops in a panic is a war crime and the use of chemical weapons is also a war crime then one has to wonder why Hien condemning many a soul in Doma Castle, with no warning, to a painful death through drowning is not also classed as a war crime. It's an incredibly cruel fate and realistically Doma Castle would have been home to non-combatants as well as a significant number of indentured conscripts. Yet for some reason Hien is given a free pass to use such tactics in the name of avoiding bloodshed on his own side, yet when other factions use the exact same reasoning they're condemned for it.

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Fordola was called out for firing on her own men but that was an order from Zenos. She wasn't put in jail for that though. The reason she's hated is for what she and the Skulls had done to other Ala Mhigans during the occupation.

I think the msq mentioned something about only imperials being int he castle, but I could be wrong about that...I'd need to double check that part of the msq to be sure.

I'm also surprised that nobody ever seemed to take issue with Hien going into the Steppe and participating in the Nadaam with the intent of dragging the Xaela into Doma's war. The empire apparantly hadn't bothered the Xaela for twenty five years since Doma's fall and there was never any attempt to convince the Xaela the empire was a mutual enemy. In fact the empre only ends up attacking the Steppe at all in SB because they were chasing the WOL.

I think people are misconstruing what the transformation will entail.

Yes, if you simply drop the Blessing of Light, you would need to do what Arbert did, and kill light-affiliated beings (i.e. you) and generally spread chaos. I honestly don't think this would go far enough, though, particularly if the twin floods are at an advanced stage (hence hypotheses regarding time travel have become popular along with hints thrown at us.)

Tilting the balance towards darkness isn't so much about evil, necessarily, as it is about actions which result in chaos. Hence you had that line at the end of 4.4, where Arbert stresses that it's not about light or darkness but how you use them. Given that light =/= good, light-aspected beings (perhaps resulting from a void of born of light) are not necessarily well intentioned. There's hints in the story that the Source is heading to a flood of light, and yet this is still accompanied by a thinning of the aether. The following words by Jenomis are telling, in regards to the crystals, in regards to the Ascians, in regards to Ultima, but also in regards to these beings of light:

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If the being truly hails from some other plane of existence, as Mikoto suggested, then we would be fools to think she might be beholden to the same values we hold dear.

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Also, it's just one method. Another would be to carry the blessing of one (or even both) of the crystals - Hydaelyn is aspected to light, and Zodiark to darkness, so actions carried out whilst you are his agent may spread darkness simply by virtue of carrying this blessing. Therefore, if the plot does turn to becoming a bearer of the Blessing of Darkness (there's hints at this, following the events at the House of the Crooked Coin), this would no doubt magnify the effect of any actions that push the balance to darkness.

That said, I do think there will be a shift to actions that promote chaos/don't promote order, but it will be strategic and selective in nature. Perhaps you may let the city-states deal with their own problems more, perhaps you may be a little more indiscriminate in which primals you slay. In terms of cooperating with the Ascians, I am very much predicting some move to work with Elidibus - but no doubt other Ascians will not want to work with you, given who you are, and will consider you anathema to their god's will. This could be exacerbated if Zodiark has limited ability to commune with anyone but you or Elidibus, as some of the Ascians already expressed distrust in Elidibus's methods in the past. Throw in some opportunist, who has his position in their sights, and you can see where that might go.

Purely speculating here, but I think these floods (darkness/light) will be an everlasting threat until the two crystals are rejoined. I also think it will fall on the WoD to find a way to do so that does not involve the only currently known method to do so, the Rejoinings.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

We've actually done this. Summon a primal to cause trouble for the Garleans, I mean. Or, well, not so much we but rather Ysayle who summons Shiva at the end of HW to buy us some time. And if we want to summon more primals, we could gow down that path again: Befriend the beast tribe, ask them to summon their primal instead of provoking them.

We are, somehow, going to fix this world. And dont fool yourself! You havent been the knight in shining armor this whole time either. You have killed countless beast men (...obviously ONLY because you were provoked!), you have murdered Garleans, as our round table during the last MSQ showed: The people commanding you so far have no idea whats actually going on. All city-states misstreat the beasttribes already. Ul'dah has banned them from the city, Limsa has banned them into those parts of Vylbrand, where nothing grows etc. (despite the beast tribe living there before them).
Our character has been a pawn in this game for a very long time and during that time we havent always been the shiny hero. Well, except of course for the fact that history is written by the winner... and that we won. (Or that thats the story they want to tell us)

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I actually found it amusing that Ul'dah originated the term "beast tribes", for its own gain. Something often attributed to the Garleans, who were at least acting on the belief that these creatures were a constant threat of primal summoning (they were not aware of the Ascian role in this.)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Warrior of Light has always been a powerful political tool for the Eorzean Alliance and its close allies. I suspect that will be played up even further as of Shadowbringers - and hopefully the Eorzean Alliance is forced to adhere to the same standards it insists on holding others accountable for. If Fordola firing on her own troops in a panic is a war crime and the use of chemical weapons is also a war crime then one has to wonder why Hien condemning many a soul in Doma Castle, with no warning, to a painful death through drowning is not also classed as a war crime. It's an incredibly cruel fate and realistically Doma Castle would have been home to non-combatants as well as a significant number of indentured conscripts. Yet for some reason Hien is given a free pass to use such tactics in the name of avoiding bloodshed on his own side, yet when other factions use the exact same reasoning they're condemned for it.

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Most of the city-states have very shady pasts and they still have darker undersides to them, to this day, in spite of the ostensibly good intentions of their spokespersons. Before the WoL came along, they acted no differently to the Garleans in terms of how they dealt with the beast tribes, if not worse in some instances.

I don't think we'll be doing anything the First's Warriors of Darkness did. They were from a Shard that was going to be returned to the Void (Flood of Light) and Elidibus told them they had to cause a Calamity on the Source to save it. What Elidibus probably "failed" to mention is what may happen to a world that goes through the 'Rejoining' process. While the threat of the Flood is gone, what happens to everyone/thing that lives on that Shard (based on what was said in 4.5, it's implied they cease to exist)? If it wasn't for Urianger, Zodiark would probably be revived and the First, Warriors of Light and Scions present during the fight would have likely perished.

For our characters, it's probably just gonna be fighting/killing as many light-based things as possible so there can be balance. Watch Minfillia end up being the final boss lol

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I think the msq mentioned something about only imperials being int he castle, but I could be wrong about that...I'd need to double check that part of the msq to be sure.

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...even if it was only imperials in the castle, I cant help having this line from Revolutions (Stormbloods Title Theme, after all) stuck in my head: "One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow".
I always understood that as a reminder that while we may be victorious here, we're still taking lifes - of people who had a family. Who might be imperials, but didnt want to fight and die in a foreign country. Its rather convient (and most likely intentional - and maybe not only for the whole modeling process) that all Garleans we fight (and kill!) are just faceless creatures, hidding under helmets...

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Originally Posted by Anger

I sure hope you're right. However, I could see us going down the antihero path. Imagine if we had to summon a primal to "cause problems" for the Garlean's and other threats.

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Remember all the talk of Titania's summoning and nature being a big deal? That, the idea of talking a beast tribe into a summoning, and her resemblance to Alisaie are making me speculate... things.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I keep thinking about how ShB’s poster job is DRK, and I think back to the original 30-50 DRK storyline. And I wonder if we’ll see some aspects of that in the way our character behaves.

Perhaps more selfish decisions rather than selfless. Perhaps more resistance at always being used as a sort of pawn for whomever wants to make use of us. Perhaps a desire to return to who we used to be...

Or I could be completely wrong and they chose DRK simply because “Warrior of Darkness and what job better fits ‘Darkness’ other than DRK’.

I’ve always wanted to see the side of our character that is presented in the DRK quest tho... Not necessarily the English edgelord side but the side from the original JP.

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I'm pretty sure they chose DRK because they want to do a reverse Cecil. Title art looks like him, the DRK artifact set looks like him, the Amano art of the WoD protecting a young girl(Minfilia/Rydia)...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...even if it was only imperials in the castle, I cant help having this line from Revolutions (Stormbloods Title Theme, after all) stuck in my head: "One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow".
I always understood that as a reminder that while we may be victorious here, we're still taking lifes - of people who had a family. Who might be imperials, but didnt want to fight and die in a foreign country. Its rather convient (and most likely intentional - and maybe not only for the whole modeling process) that all Garleans we fight (and kill!) are just faceless creatures, hidding under helmets...

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Or monstrosities, as in Castrum Abania.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I keep thinking about how ShB’s poster job is DRK, and I think back to the original 30-50 DRK storyline.

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IMO, the direction of the DRK quests at level 70 present a very nice segue into where the story might be headed, since a lot of it involves self-reflection on your deeds, without wanting to give away too much. It could almost have been a MSQ story.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I don't think we'll be doing anything the First's Warriors of Darkness did. They were from a Shard that was going to be returned to the Void (Flood of Light) and Elidibus told them they had to cause a Calamity on the Source to save it. What Elidibus probably "failed" to mention is what may happen to a world that goes through the 'Rejoining' process. While the threat of the Flood is gone, what happens to everyone/thing that lives on that Shard (based on what was said in 4.5, it's implied they cease to exist)? If it wasn't for Urianger, Zodiark would probably be revived and the First, Warriors of Light and Scions present during the fight would have likely perished.

For our characters, it's probably just gonna be fighting/killing as many light-based things as possible so there can be balance. Watch Minfillia end up being the final boss lol

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Regarding the First, it's not yet confirmed it's no longer under threat. Given that there is a looming calamity on the Source as well, it may be the case that the excess light Minfillia is absorbing is spreading throughout it rather than just going into Hydaelyn. When you add to this the effect the WoL's actions are having, it could be resulting in an imbalance in both worlds. Elidibus's primary aim is the revival of his god. One can speculate as to the why's and wherefore's of it, but I am beginning to lean towards the notion that the Ascians aren't just doing it for the hell of it and there may be deeper reasons as to why they took on this cause. We'll have to wait until 5.0 to find out more about these beings, which I speculate may, too, have once been WoLs, then WoDs, then what they are now. Hydaelyn herself had also neglected to mention what was going on in the First and I am hoping they reveal why in the future.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...even if it was only imperials in the castle, I cant help having this line from Revolutions (Stormbloods Title Theme, after all) stuck in my head: "One mother's pride is another mother's sorrow".
I always understood that as a reminder that while we may be victorious here, we're still taking lifes - of people who had a family. Who might be imperials, but didnt want to fight and die in a foreign country. Its rather convient (and most likely intentional - and maybe not only for the whole modeling process) that all Garleans we fight (and kill!) are just faceless creatures, hidding under helmets...

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See, I'd love it if there was some moral ambiguity in SB, but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid it. That song had me pretty hyped for the war story, but it felt to me like SE was too afraid to actually have the good guys do anything quesitonable. The main questionable thing to me, dragging the Xaela into the war, was never presented as questionable in the story. They made Zenos a monster to overcompensate for people that wanted to side with Gaius.

The story never really explores any of these things. Sure many of the imperials we kill are probably just conscripts who didn't particularly want to be there, but at the same time, they ARE soldiers in an occupying army that oppresses the local people.

The SB DRK questline tried to make this point, yet the msq doesn't really have any tragic figures that we killed to show off, instead only having Gaius' henchmen (lieutenants in an army trying to subjugate Eorzea), the warriors of darkness (who we didn't kill), the heavens' ward (who had to be stopped), and freaking Ilberd.

Even Zenos's revival... they ruled out any redemption arc from the outset. Still, he has a lot of fans, so I'm not sure how successful their attempt was. :p

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

See, I'd love it if there was some moral ambiguity in SB, but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid it. That song had me pretty hyped for the war story, but it felt to me like SE was too afraid to actually have the good guys do anything quesitonable. The main questionable thing to me, dragging the Xaela into the war, was never presented as questionable in the story. They made Zenos a monster to overcompensate for people that wanted to side with Gaius.

The story never really explores any of these things. Sure many of the imperials we kill are probably just conscripts who didn't particularly want to be there, but at the same time, they ARE soldiers in an occupying army that oppresses the local people.

The SB DRK questline tried to make this point, yet the msq doesn't really have any tragic figures that we killed to show off, instead only having Gaius' henchmen (lieutenants in an army trying to subjugate Eorzea), the warriors of darkness (who we didn't kill), the heavens' ward (who had to be stopped), and freaking Ilberd.

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There was Yotsuyu. They amply expanded on her backstory and how it tied into how she was treated as a Doman. But you're right, a lot of this stuff is tied into side-quests, and that was the exception. There's certainly a lot of material that highlights that the average Garlean, whilst misguided/misled, is not necessarily evil (and conversely, that Eorzea/Othard has its own share of wickedness.)

Even in Nidhogg's case, whilst his rage was explained to us, he was so uncompromisingly destructive at the end, that nothing but death could resolve that story arc. Which, in turn, explained Thordan's motivations.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Even Zenos's revival... they ruled out any redemption arc from the outset. Still, he has a lot of fans, so I'm not sure how successful their attempt was. :p



There was Yotsuyu. They amply expanded on her backstory and how it tied into how she was treated as a Doman. But you're right, a lot of this stuff is tied into side-quests, and that was the exception. There's certainly a lot of material that highlights that the average Garlean, whilst misguided/misled, is not necessarily evil (and conversely, that Eorzea/Othard has its own share of wickedness.)

Even in Nidhogg's case, whilst his rage was explained to us, he was so uncompromisingly destructive at the end, that nothing but death could resolve that story arc. Which, in turn, explained Thordan's motivations.

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Yotsuyu suffered aweful things. But she was also introduced as sadistically forcing peasants to murder eachother for her amusement. Yotsuyu was a huge missed opportunity. They could have used her as an example that maybe Doma wasn't so great before the empire took it, and maybe had her as a villain that believed Doma under the empire's yoke was better off than it would be governing itself, and ultimately making Hien and Doma itself face up to past failings and endeavoring to make a better Doma than they once were once liberated. But ultimately all Yotsuyu's unfortunate backstory contributed was a vain attempt to get me to sympathize with her in 4.2 and 4.3 rather than adding any actual nuance to the story. Even when we talk to the guy that used to pimp her out the story doesn't really explore it and nothing is done with him again.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yotsuyu suffered aweful things. But she was also introduced as sadistically forcing peasants to murder eachother for her amusement. Yotsuyu was a huge missed opportunity. They could have used her as an example that maybe Doma wasn't so great before the empire took it, and maybe had her as a villain that believed Doma under the empire's yoke was better off than it would be governing itself, and ultimately making Hien and Doma itself face up to past failings and endeavoring to make a better Doma than they once were once liberated. But ultimately all Yotsuyu's unfortunate backstory contributed was a vain attempt to get me to sympathize with her in 4.2 and 4.3 rather than adding any actual nuance to the story. Even when we talk to the guy that used to pimp her out the story doesn't really explore it and nothing is done with him again.

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Mhm, although she still benefited from more of a backstory than most villains do. Idk if it's just to do with the limitations of how much of the story they can convey in an MMO due to their resource limitations. Still, at least there was more of an attempt in her case to bring the motives to the forefront. They sort of did it with Livia, as well, but it was tacked on at the end.

There's a lot of moral ambiguity tied to the story. It's simply a case of the protagonists never really being held to the same standards as those they clash with. Even in regards to the way in which Eorzeans interact with factions they aren't at war with there's a lot of shady elements to consider.

Hingashi was kind enough to open up Kugane to the outside world for the sake of trade, for instance - yet when the Isle of Val reappeared Eorzean business operatives with direct ties to the Eorzean Alliance saw fit to lay claim to it in order to evade Kugane's tariffs. It's very easy to take that as a direct assault upon Hingashi's livelihood and culture with very little justification for Eorzeans seeking to dominate trade in a region that does not belong to them.

If the Isle of Val had emerged anew off of the coast of Eorzea and a foreign nation sought to lay claim to it I guarantee the Eorzeans would be screeching to the high heavens and seeking to cast them out.

Hingashi was 'kind enough' to open Kugane to trade? You mean they did it to make money via trade while still keeping filthy Ijin out of their heartland. The way you phrase it makes it sound like they're being altruistic in opening up Kugane but that's not really the case.

Of all the things to accuse the Eorzeans of being shady about going after trying to set up trade on a newly formed island to avoid tariffs is kind of baffling to me. If that happens then Hingashi will just have to be more competitive with their tariffs rather than doing what they want and raking in the gil.

Trade is all about mutual benefit. The Ijin benefit as much as anyone else from it, and in particular the East Aldernard company. The tariffs can be taken as the costs of maintaining the city's public services and accessing its vibrant network.

Besides, it's a pretty great way for the Eorzeans to breed further contempt from a potential ally that already has little reason to break its neutrality with the Empire but has gone as far as to allow the Prima Vista's members to stay within it.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Hingashi was 'kind enough' to open Kugane to trade? You mean they did it to make money via trade while still keeping filthy Ijin out of their heartland. The way you phrase it makes it sound like they're being altruistic in opening up Kugane but that's not really the case.

Of all the things to accuse the Eorzeans of being shady about going after trying to set up trade on a newly formed island to avoid tariffs is kind of baffling to me. If that happens then Hingashi will just have to be more competitive with their tariffs rather than doing what they want and raking in the gil.

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They've no obligation to open up their borders to any and all seeking entry, especially when recovering from conflict themselves. Eorzea has a long track record of bringing ruin to other nations to get ahead both in the past and present. Sil'dih was utterly condemned to destruction for the benefit of Ul'dah. A fact which was hidden from history until recently.

There's no real reason to open up its heartland to outsiders, and Kugane was in and of itself a valuable base of operations.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

There's no real reason to open up its heartland to outsiders, and Kugane was in and of itself a valuable base of operations.

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High tariffs are also far less dubious than outright piracy, though mysteriously the Eorzean Alliance isn't bothered by it to any strong degree so long as the 'right' targets are being inconvenienced. One can only wonder how many non-combatants were condemned to a watery grave by Limsa's ships. They specifically go out of their way to target Garlean vessels after all. Yet ships have quite a few crew members who aren't there to fight and presumably civilians would occasionally be on board in the form of merchants and nobles.

That aside, the Confederacy are shown to enforce their 'Ruby Tithe' and are actively aided in doing so by the game's protagonists. So there's no strong moral stance taken against such things - it really is just a case of Eorzea's horrific hypocrisy.

My hopes on calling ourselves the WoD is to fight against a moral yet tyrannical system by a deity.
Like- it is forbidden to eat chicken (if that culture sees it as bad) or go against your parent’s wishes (which can be seen as a moral thing); but the wages for those sins are execution.
We are fighting against the wrongful execution of what can be considered a moral (light based) system.

From what we've been told so far, the reason we're becoming WoD is to fix the balance of light and dark. However, what we also know is that light and dark are not equivalent to good and evil. So I doubt we'll end up doing anything unilaterally heinous or even villanous in darkness' name. What seems more likely to me is that while we might attempt retreading Arbert's path at first, we'll quickly realise that we must do it differently, knowing that he ultimately failed to accomplish much of anything.

My interpretation of Arbert's arc is that, in the end, he was no less of a puppet than WoL. From beginning to end, he was a pawn in the game that Hydaelyn, Zodiark, and possibly even players we're still unaware of, are playing. He thought that the proper response to averting the flood of light was to just counter it with a greater flood of darkness, but, to me... that logic seems flawed. It's too simple. Too naive in the greater context of this conflict. We know that there's some high level metaphysical 4D chess being played behind the scenes, and it is highly unlikely that the brute-force approach Arbert chose would have accomplished anything other than ultimately playing into another player's hands.

Even "balance" is just a bandaid. In order to truly fix the world, both light and dark need to be evicted from it.

So I feel that what our WoD needs to do is to see beyond the pawns, beyond the obvious threats, and focus on the puppet-strings tying them to the players instead. And then the players themselves. Our end-goal should be ending this game between entities that couldn't care less about the mortal lives they're toying with. Which is the message Varis was trying to send us in 4.5 but at this point the WoL is still incapable of recognising it, much less acting on it. I expect throughout Shadowbringers Varis will be our new Gaius serving as a parallel for us to compare to and learn from the mistakes of. We will probably be trying to accomplish the same goal, but in the end he will fail, showing us how not to do it, and we will then pick up his mission and carry it on with insights and perspective that he lacked, going into 6.0.

Because chances are we are not going to wrap up the arc in only one expansion. I speculate that everything we've done up to this point has been the lighthearted prologue that sets the stage and introduces the actors, Shadowbringers will be the eye-opening middle part of our classic (anti?)hero's journey, the "turning point" where we fail for the first time ever, realise that we must reinvent ourselves and change the way we perceive and interact with the conflicts ahead, and then 6.0 will follow up on what we have learned and set us on a path to finally resolve the whole Zodiark vs Hydaelyn arc (which may even stretch beyond 6.0).

And after that, a new story can begin where the world deals with the fallout and is probably introduced to another, even greater threat that then has to be retroactively tied up to loose ends introduced earlier, turning the storyline into a Kingdom Hearts-sized ball of spaghetti. And then the writers realise they have no idea what's going on anymore, eventually run out of sanity and/or material, FF14 ends and we look forward to another FF MMO.

Okay, maybe I'm overspeculating now n_n Um... What were we talking about?

I think it's going to be less about good/evil and just more about consequential actions that tip in the chaos scale. If we take Fray's example, I expect the WoL(D) to be more draconian in his/her choices, less diplomatic, more direct and less time-consuming in resolving issues. Where before we'd let some blackheart spend his/her day in jail or be forgiven and make amends, we'll bring swift retribution, not out of malice but again, out of the decision to nip problems at their root. We might see WoL, msq-wise, reject taking detours like ridiculous fetch quests in order to proceed the plot and rather be more forceful and possibly threaten to get his/her way.

In terms of quantifiable dark scale tipping, I speculate that we'll be taking actions that would otherwise be considered downright illegal, if not harmful to the world itself but again, it'd be more of those "small price to pay" type of actions. Perhaps taking actions that would, say for example, really hurt elementals or primal summoning. I genuinely hope that in the first part of the expansion, at the end if we were to restore balance before tackling new issues, the WoD is so troubled by what they've done that we start distancing ourselves from politics and even the scions themselves (for awhile at least) and just venture on our own in a journey to "find ourself" again or self-healing.

Darkness isn't inherently Evil :T

Reading some of the comments here, I'm wondering if half the people here actually read the MSQ cutscenes

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Originally Posted by Rangar

Reading some of the comments here, I'm wondering if half the people here actually read the MSQ cutscenes

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I'm a bit confused as well.

We are only becoming the Warrior of Darkness because Warrior of Balance didn't sound cool enough.

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

We are only becoming the Warrior of Darkness because Warrior of Balance didn't sound cool enough.

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Balance is very, very cool though. Especially when it involves cards! ;)

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Originally Posted by Anger

I'm a bit confused as well.

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I'm not sure whats confusing to you?

That not everyone is under the impression that we - or the Eorzean Alliance, specially the Alliance, specially Limsa! - is some sort of shiny hero?

While thinking about this a little bit more, I recalled this MSQ with Ga Bu. You remember him? The little kobold who summons Titan because he learns that his parents were sacrificed by the kobold priests?
Do you remember what happens to him - and even more important what should have happend to him? Because the only reason hes still alive is that Alisae protected him (and still hopes we'll find a way to save him). The Maelstrom wanted to execute the little kobold kid instead of trying to help.
There are good people in this world, trying to do the right thing. But its damn sure not always those people who are telling us what "the right thing" is. The Alliance isnt made up of all good people - but also of those who'd rather see the beast tribes slaughterd, by people with almost racist-behaviour (looking at you, Gridania - yes, yes, elementals, I know), by people who are dragging peacefully living tribes into their wars...

Once of the cutscenes that left a big impression on me is a very early one, in ARR. Its not much, but its Y'shtola calling Merlwyb out in regards to the kobolds summoning Titan (I think?) and pointing out that those kobolds might be only defending themselves against Limsa... and that Limsa - and we - is the real aggressor here.

To pont something out, White Magic =/= good magic where Black Magic =/= Evil Magic. The lore surrounding the war of the magi does point out hat while the Amdapori were supposedly supposed to be living one with nature (something like that) and keeping things in balance (where Mhachewere more about gaining power and exploring magic). However, the Amdapori ended up draining and destroying much of the land by building their own magical constructs and society and were in some ways no different that Mhache. The theme boils down to its not necessarily the nature of magic itself that is good or evil, but how its used. Along those same lines of thinking, the cause of the Warrior of Light ended up almost destroying a world in the MSQ, so it stands to reason that being a Warrior of Light isnt necessarily a 'good' thing. There can be to much light in the world, so to speak.

Who knows though what the MSQ will be about.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I'm not sure whats confusing to you?

That not everyone is under the impression that we - or the Eorzean Alliance, specially the Alliance, specially Limsa! - is some sort of shiny hero?

While thinking about this a little bit more, I recalled this MSQ with Ga Bu. You remember him? The little kobold who summons Titan because he learns that his parents were sacrificed by the kobold priests?
Do you remember what happens to him - and even more important what should have happend to him? Because the only reason hes still alive is that Alisae protected him (and still hopes we'll find a way to save him). The Maelstrom wanted to execute the little kobold kid instead of trying to help.
There are good people in this world, trying to do the right thing. But its damn sure not always those people who are telling us what "the right thing" is. The Alliance isnt made up of all good people - but also of those who'd rather see the beast tribes slaughterd, by people with almost racist-behaviour (looking at you, Gridania - yes, yes, elementals, I know), by people who are dragging peacefully living tribes into their wars...

Once of the cutscenes that left a big impression on me is a very early one, in ARR. Its not much, but its Y'shtola calling Merlwyb out in regards to the kobolds summoning Titan (I think?) and pointing out that those kobolds might be only defending themselves against Limsa... and that Limsa - and we - is the real aggressor here.

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Mm. It's a matter of looking at the story as a whole. I'm not one for saber rattling and chest thumping in favour of any given faction. I prefer to examine the story as it is when all the puzzle pieces are fixed together. At a glance, it's easy to write off the likes of Yotsuyu as unhinged and unworthy of sympathy but when you dig deeper it's easy to see why she became that way. It didn't happen over a trivial spat - it was a direct consequence of the abuse she received from those around her and the flaws of the society she was raised in.

It's precisely why I find myself invested in FFXIV over the other MMO's on the market. It's a lot more heavily story driven and all the little details come together very smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Driven

My hopes on calling ourselves the WoD is to fight against a moral yet tyrannical system by a deity.
Like- it is forbidden to eat chicken (if that culture sees it as bad) or go against your parent’s wishes (which can be seen as a moral thing); but the wages for those sins are execution.
We are fighting against the wrongful execution of what can be considered a moral (light based) system.

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I hope you are right because this warrior of darkness thing is doesn't ring true for me.

People who assume that we're gonna do something completely outrageous or special have probably never played the MSQ or skipped all the way through it. They would NEVER do something radical that changes how we/our character acts. NEVER. We'll probably fight some light/holy themed monsters and that'll be it.

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Originally Posted by Voross

People who assume that we're gonna do something completely outrageous or special have probably never played the MSQ or skipped all the way through it. They would NEVER do something radical that changes how we/our character acts. NEVER. We'll probably fight some light/holy themed monsters and that'll be it.

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But what if they surprised us?

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Originally Posted by Anger

• Terrorizing Beastmen Tribes to summon stronger primals
• Focus on killing the Warrior of Light
• Forming an alliance with the Ascians
• Renouncing their physical forms.

So, what if the player is given a quest akin to "Terrorize the local beastmen tribes to summon X primal"? How would that make you feel? How would you respond? Are you okay with this?

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Hopefully more quests that involve slapping Moogles,Kobolds,Namazu,popotoes who ask to fetch tea leaves and any NPC that wants us to fetch dung for them.

Not okay with terrorising Beast Tribes or killing the WOL.

Would like to smack the Eorzean Alliance a little for their double standards/hypocrisy(eg: The treatment of Beast Tribes), for all the fetch/delivery quests/travel all across the world,seemingly unending monologues.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Watch Minfillia end up being the final boss lol

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You meant we are going to watch helplessly as she cast 100% unavoidable "Return to Sandstone" AoE to the raid that soon is gonna be wiped out in a second.

I've long been hesitant about what becoming the "Warrior of Darkness" could entail. Either it does horrible things to our character and how they act, or it doesn't really change anything, and it's just dark and edgy for the sake of being dark and edgy.

I hope that this is a temporary necessity, and a stepping-stone to finding a permanent balance between Light and Dark. And that they handle the concept very carefully.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

While thinking about this a little bit more, I recalled this MSQ with Ga Bu. You remember him? The little kobold who summons Titan because he learns that his parents were sacrificed by the kobold priests?
Do you remember what happens to him - and even more important what should have happend to him? Because the only reason hes still alive is that Alisae protected him (and still hopes we'll find a way to save him). The Maelstrom wanted to execute the little kobold kid instead of trying to help.

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I've just been back through that story, and it's not what happened. The first part, yes, but Alisaie never has to protect him from the big bad Maelstrom wanting to kill him. (Quest scripts: Part 1, Part 2, missing some cutscenes though.)

After the summoning, Ga Bu is simply catatonic, and nobody is sure whether he's been tempered or is just in deep shock. It's the Alliance's policy that anyone who has been tempered must be executed, and Alisaie is horrified to see what this actually means first-hand. It's still only a question of whether they'll have to do it, if it becomes clear that he is indeed tempered, but the prospect is there - and so Alisaie is desperate to confirm that he's "still himself" and the order won't have to be carried out.

Even without confimation, the Maelstrom are willing to look after Ga Bu until it can be sure what has happened to him. "We'll not soon forget that he risked his neck to warn us of Titan", Commander Bloeidin says, "and neither will Maelstrom Command."

And as we see at the end of 4.4, they're still looking after him, although he doesn't seem to have recovered any further.



Whatever happens with him, it seems intended as a step towards a shift in the Alliance's thinking - a hopeful sign that tempering might not be permanent, and we'll be able to find a way to break through it.

It also parallels nicely with Alphinaud's determination to rescue Estinien from Nidhogg's possession, rather than accepting that it would be necessary to kill them both together.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If Fordola firing on her own troops in a panic is a war crime and the use of chemical weapons is also a war crime then one has to wonder why Hien condemning many a soul in Doma Castle, with no warning, to a painful death through drowning is not also classed as a war crime. It's an incredibly cruel fate and realistically Doma Castle would have been home to non-combatants as well as a significant number of indentured conscripts. Yet for some reason Hien is given a free pass to use such tactics in the name of avoiding bloodshed on his own side, yet when other factions use the exact same reasoning they're condemned for it.

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Drowning is never brought up as part of the plan, and nobody on either side mentions casualties because of it. My understanding was that it was intended to flood the grounds and make it difficult for the Garleans to move troops freely and defend the castle - trapping them in the higher towers above the floodwaters. An approach that might mean less deaths on both sides.

The journal does say that Garleans drowned when the castle was flooded, but that's only if you go back and read it afterwards - not something we are shown or told is happening within the story itself.

It's also about intent. Hien is doing this as a tactical part of the castle invasion, not with the primary intent of drowning people or inflicting suffering upon them. Whereas firing on your own troops, or unleashing a deadly chemical weapon are both undeniably carried out with the primary intent of causing death. (And is Fordola being held for that specifically, or for generally being a traitor who did awful things in allegiance with her country's enemy?)

The whole thing makes me uncomfortable regardless (I'd rather we weren't in a morally-ambiguous war plot in the first place), but it did set me wondering what a definition of a war crime actually is. Again it seems to come down to willful inflicting of suffering, and this is not portrayed as Hien's intent. From reading through a few articles, it seems to be more covered by military necessity, and it's a decision he doesn't make lightly.

I'm not sure what you're thinking of when you say "when other factions use the exact same reasoning they're condemned for it". I honestly can't think of a comparative situation. What reasoning? What event?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If the Isle of Val had emerged anew off of the coast of Eorzea and a foreign nation sought to lay claim to it I guarantee the Eorzeans would be screeching to the high heavens and seeking to cast them out.

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And it would be their right in that case, because the island emerged in Eorzean waters and it would be their territory being invaded.

As it is, the island is in Hingan waters, so it's up to Hingashi to make that territorial claim and cast out the foreigners trying to capitalise on it. It's not within Eorzea's jurisdiction.

Additionally, there is a difference between a "foreign nation" trying to claim the island, and some people from that nation. Even if Rowena and Lolorito have direct ties to the Alliance, they are acting on their own, and not being supported by the government in this private business venture. It would be different if the Hingans did retaliate and the Eorzean government stepped in to support and defend them, but that isn't what's happening here.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

See, I'd love it if there was some moral ambiguity in SB, but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid it. That song had me pretty hyped for the war story, but it felt to me like SE was too afraid to actually have the good guys do anything quesitonable. The main questionable thing to me, dragging the Xaela into the war, was never presented as questionable in the story.

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I agree - I really disliked that whole arc and how we were basically forcing our way into a Xaela cultural tradition so we could compel them to help us with a rebellion that was already brutally crushed once by a technological superpower. And here we are basically conscripting some guys with spears and arrows - who apparently love a good fight anyway. Why didn't we just try asking them to help in the first place?

The whole time we were there, it felt like I was a fraud who was seeking to use them all for personal gain. It spoiled my enjoyment of that entire location.

If nothing else, I wish it was Hien who won and was named khan. It would change nothing in the story, and it was his plan in the first place. Leave me out of it, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

I don't think we'll be doing anything the First's Warriors of Darkness did. They were from a Shard that was going to be returned to the Void (Flood of Light) and Elidibus told them they had to cause a Calamity on the Source to save it. What Elidibus probably "failed" to mention is what may happen to a world that goes through the 'Rejoining' process. While the threat of the Flood is gone, what happens to everyone/thing that lives on that Shard (based on what was said in 4.5, it's implied they cease to exist)? If it wasn't for Urianger, Zodiark would probably be revived and the First, Warriors of Light and Scions present during the fight would have likely perished.

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I don't think Elidibus failed to explain the Rejoining at all; rather he sold it to them as a better alternative to the flood. (Though I do suspect he omitted other information - less calamitous resolutions, perhaps, or the actual necessity of dying before they could travel between shards.)

The Warriors are desperately trying to drive the Source to a Calamity exactly so the First will be Rejoined and reduced to aether, scattering its souls to the Lifestream, rather than be frozen forever in Light without either true life or death.

At least, that's how it gets relayed to us.

From Beneath A Star-Filled Sky:

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URIANGER
As for what becometh of these reflections when they and the Source are rejoined...
"Frail flesh undone in Umbral fires,
Each soul surrend'reth to Her call,
To flow unto the endless sea,
There to endure as one and none."

ALISAIE
Then...then if the Warriors of Darkness succeed, everyone in their world will die?

URIANGER
In essence, aye. The verse speaketh of the renunciation of the flesh, and subsequent return to the Lifestream.
However, this fate may yet be preferable to the alternative, for if the First were to fall to transcendent Light in the manner the Warriors of Darkness described, it would give way unto a void wherein none may know either life or death.
Far better to die, they reason─for in death there is life. The essence of a soul which returneth unto the Source may be born anew. Saved. Such, at least, is their belief, I surmise.

ALPHINAUD
If that is true, then... Gods. No one should ever have to make such a choice.

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