BA is the 2nd biggest waste of development time, only beaten by Diadem 2.0

SE taking 0 of the complaints of the emergency mission in Diadem 2.0 and makes content that is close to being worse.

If you had made this 24-man, LIKE PEOPLE ACTUALLY ASKED FOR, it COULD be better. Trying to coordinate 56 idiots to clear content is stupid. 56 idiots that can't even get a raise other than a "70%" chance (Sacrifice is stupid and you know it's more like a 30% chance knowing this game's poor RNG). Then you can't even change jobs while being inside, not even in the start zone. Then you also need people outside the dungeon to even progress by defeating an NM? Why should those people even care about giving other people the pleasure of clearing this? Why should I even trust people to actually do something they don't even get rewarded that much for?

You even gave the biggest warning beforehand, making sure almost no one even bother to attempt it, making every zone dead for trying BA. Not even bother to attempt the doable first bosses, and you NEED to do those to even clear the thing. And you need to farm them. And no one can be bothered to do it because you scared every casual away. Good job. You literally need to use Discord because of how unpuggable this garbage content is. It's impossible to pug this, which is one of many, many, MANY terrible design decisions you made.

SE you messed up and have made something which is neither rewarding nor fun or interesting. It's so little rewarding that people that have done it have absolutely 0 reason to even help anyone else in it. And then you need to farm the first part a trillion times just to be able to attempt the last two bosses? When 50% of attempts can't even get through trash mobs because EVERYTHING relies on tanks and healers. Garbage tank or healer? Oh, you have to wait for the next attempt. How is this fun?

With Shadowbringers, and every expansion after, STOP INTRODUCING FF11 CONTENT. You are completely incapable and incompetent at making good design decisions for this type of content. Just. Stop. Trying.

So don't do it? This isn't a mandatory thing to do in order to receive the weapon/armor. It is an added bonus for people, unlike you, who want something VERY challenging to complete. It has been conquered by people so clearly it achievable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

Then you can't even change jobs while being inside, not even in the start zone. Then you also need people outside the dungeon to even progress by defeating an NM? Why should those people even care about giving other people the pleasure of clearing this? Why should I even trust people to actually do something they don't even get rewarded that much for?

---

Umm, you get a ton of exp for completing the outside NM. Why wouldn't people do it? I am level 54 and I do it every time because I want the EXP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

no one can be bothered to do it because you scared every casual away. Good job. You literally need to use Discord because of how unpuggable this garbage content is. It's impossible to pug this, which is one of many, many, MANY terrible design decisions you made.

---

I don't think SE ever said the Arsenal was actually intended for casual players, otherwise it wouldn't be locked the way it as nor have a high difficulty to complete. It's just a little something at the end for players that wanted an extra challenge, no different to the Ultimate raids (which can also be tough to pug but not impossible).

Personally I think the Arsenal should have had it's own duty matchmaking instance seperate from Eureka, it could have at least made it a little easier to form parties. Although I wonder if 24 people are the max you can recruit through the Party Finder, hence that's why it didn't happen.

OP have a valid point. This is kind of content that very few players gonna attempt, therefore for a majority of players it's as good as non-existent and therefore waste of development time. And I'd like to add, same can be said about ultimate and savage. :p

Trying to get just 56 people together is pretty impossible I hope they come up with a solution soon the proto ozma battle looks like fun, I'd like to experience it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurando

Although I wonder if 24 people are the max you can recruit through the Party Finder, hence that's why it didn't happen.

---

Pvp can do up to 72, so 24 is not the max. But I will agree that SE does make me feel alienated with this content. I dont6mind a grinding, but it's not enjoyable at all. That's why I'm still level 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

Pvp can do up to 72, so 24 is not the max. But I will agree that SE does make me feel alienated with this content. I dont6mind a grinding, but it's not enjoyable at all. That's why I'm still level 2.

---

Maybe my wording wasn't clearly, but I don't think you can recruit for anything more than 24 through the Party Finder, so if you wanted to pre-form a group before hand for the Arsenal it would be difficult. The Duty Finder however can match up to 72 for PvP, but then you would risk being matched up with randoms or even put in different instances to other parties you wanted to do it with.

How spitefull

There are discord channels on Chaos, more than one to clear BA. One of them has over 500 members, and we have like 9 teams doing it. (+1 french)


And its the best thing i experienced so far. We killed it on Eu first, despite most of us are not even harcore raiders or even raiders at all. (sadly i died on eu first kill, but they helped me to get it the next day) And they are wellcoming newcomers too!
It can be done, it is being done, and it is fun!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

With Shadowbringers, and every expansion after, STOP INTRODUCING FF11 CONTENT. You are completely incapable and incompetent at making good design decisions for this type of content. Just. Stop. Trying.

---

For every person that says this, there is another person that says the opposite. SE please keep creating Eureka-type content. No one HAS to do Eureka.

With so much salt, i'd order some fries.

Personally i find BA interesting. Its fresh, it's challenging..
Only problem i see is the community. On one side you have people claiming the instance (in a rude manner) and on the other side you have people who is new and "snipe" portals..

Instead of asking people nicely to leave the portals until support portals are up, people threten to report each other, then you have people who got provoked, start "sniping" portals..like jesus..its just a game.

Nothing is impossible to "pug" i cleared ozma on first try. BA isnt that hard and its not the "warning" that scares people off..its the toxicity in the shout chat that makes people dishearthen to do so. Most people enter Ozma at 84-60 mins remaining, dont tell me you dont have time to type in say chat for people who dont use discord because thats just bad attitude, and frankly it's arrogant to expect people to have what you have. True discord works better, but the comunity shouldn't be such dicks about it. On BOTH sides.

SE, if people can enter it as an alliance, that'll be nice and hopefully ease up on the toxic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fumofu

OP have a valid point. This is kind of content that very few players gonna attempt, therefore for a majority of players it's as good as non-existent and therefore waste of development time. And I'd like to add, same can be said about ultimate and savage. :p

---

That's about the least informed statement I have ever seen on this forum. Savage raids are what is most popular across every Data Center I have played on. It's literally the only thing that keeps this game alive. Aside from that both Savage and Ultimate progression is what garners the most attention on platforms like twitch and thus they are the lifeblood of this game. That's the kind of content players come back to and it's the kind of content that draws new players in. I'm not saying every player is a raider at heart, but saying Savage or Ultimate is a waste of development time is so wrong it hurts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fate_Testarossa

That's about the least informed statement I have ever seen on this forum. Savage raids are what is most popular across every Data Center I have played on. It's literally the only thing that keeps this game alive. Aside from that both Savage and Ultimate progression is what garners the most attention on platforms like twitch and thus they are the lifeblood of this game. That's the kind of content players come back to and it's the kind of content that draws new players in. I'm not saying every player is a raider at heart, but saying Savage or Ultimate is a waste of development time is so wrong it hurts.

---

The thing is, Savage and Ultimate have extremely low clear rates, which is why they can be considered a waste of time for some people. You have to consider the amount of time that goes into designing one of these raids and what is lost in exchange for it. I would argue Ultimate would be a waste of time considering how small the participation base is for it. Ultimate is great for a small population, but the problem is that the target population is just too small and that time could be better spent elsewhere. Savage at least has a large enough population that participates in it that can at least be somewhat justified.

The same applies to Eureka as a whole as well. Considering that this is meant to be the end game grind for it, the 11% or so clear rate for Pyros at the time of Hydatos's release is disappointing. I hope they never try something like Diadem or Eureka again and go back to a relic system that utilizes the content that was introduced in that expansion. Better yet, have relic progress be viable across all content from all expansions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchimont

The same applies to Eureka as a whole as well. Considering that this is meant to be the end game grind for it, the 11% or so clear rate for Pyros at the time of Hydatos's release is disappointing. I hope they never try something like Diadem or Eureka again and go back to a relic system that utilizes the content that was introduced in that expansion. Better yet, have relic progress be viable across all content from all expansions.

---

What does "clear rate" even mean for Pyros? Getting the weapon, weapon and gear? Killing all NM's? Also, source please. There are tons of people doing the content. This is the first relic I have completed all the way through (so far) because the content is so much better than the other relic grinds. I hope they never implement things like ATMA and farming for books again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crux

What does "clear rate" even mean for Pyros? Getting the weapon, weapon and gear? Killing all NM's? Also, source please. There are tons of people doing the content. This is the first relic I have completed all the way through (so far) because the content is so much better than the other relic grinds. I hope they never implement things like ATMA and farming for books again.

---

[Relic weapon achievement] and making the most of [eureka area]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchimont

The thing is, Savage and Ultimate have extremely low clear rates, which is why they can be considered a waste of time for some people. You have to consider the amount of time that goes into designing one of these raids and what is lost in exchange for it. I would argue Ultimate would be a waste of time considering how small the participation base is for it. Ultimate is great for a small population, but the problem is that the target population is just too small and that time could be better spent elsewhere. Savage at least has a large enough population that participates in it that can at least be somewhat justified.

---

Look at it this way: TIME INVESTMENT.

Everything in the game has that. Savage, Ultimate, and Eureka take Time Investment and Skill to complete. Chances are, some people are scared of trying harder content because of how they may be perceived by others.

Regarding Baldesion Arsenal however, this was actually the most fun I’ve had in a raid in a LONG TIME. No Revival(outside Sac Chaining and Remembered) and High Stakes. The amount of teamwork it took to complete Baldesion Arsenal is akin to how you’d do it in Savage or Ultimate, and it’s merely counting on 54 different players for AV. Would you trust 7 others and yourself to take the time to learn? Or would you rather do something else? It’s a matter of what people choose.

This is the first relic I've ever skipped, because the content is so mind-numbing and finger-destroying. It doesn't matter if it takes fewer hours than the ARR/HW versions to get a Eureka weapon if every second inside is soul-annihilating torture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

This is the first relic I've ever skipped, because the content is so mind-numbing and finger-destroying. It doesn't matter if it takes fewer hours than the ARR/HW versions to get a Eureka weapon if every second inside is soul-annihilating torture.

---

It gets fun once you get to Pyros.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchimont

The thing is, Savage and Ultimate have extremely low clear rates, which is why they can be considered a waste of time for some people.

---

Participation rates and watch rates are far more important than clear rates. Let me ask you, what would you replace savage with? Because if you replace it with casual content then nobody has anything to aim towards. The entire gearing process is based around savage and ultimate, and removing the challenge altogether makes stats worthless, gear worthless outside of glamour and would make the play experience for MANY players sub for a week then unsub because all content is beaten.

In other words, Savage keeps players playing, holds together the reward structure with a final goal, and garners a lot of attention on release of people watching and being interested in the game. Being fixated on the CLEAR rates is so short sighted because it implies that just because only a few reach the finish, then the journey might as well not exist in the first place.

As it stands, both Savage and Ultimate share assets with casual content, what are the clear rates for NM raids like? because thats more than half the assets that you are claiming are wasted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

[Relic weapon achievement] and making the most of [eureka area]

---

My above statement applies to this as well, why is the end goal completion rate important? The absolute ideal result is actually to have low clear rates but high participation rates, because people stop doing content after they finish it, and then maybe unsub. SE wants people to keep participating, making it the only stat that matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blanchimont

The thing is, Savage and Ultimate have extremely low clear rates, which is why they can be considered a waste of time for some people. You have to consider the amount of time that goes into designing one of these raids and what is lost in exchange for it.

---

Unlike Eureka, Savage doesn't cost resources at a loss like that.

After they create and design Savage, they go on to use the same instance to create Normal difficulty. Therefore the Savage instance is utilized to create content for casual players. Ultimate in the same way, while very different for the EX counterpart, still isn't entirely unique new content. They build new content from the existing EX fights.

If you removed Savage from the game, you'd only save a little resources, because Normal would have to be created anyway, so they're still making the same raids. While the entirety of the resources poured into Eureka and BA are used on one mode alone, targeted towards a niche grind-based playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

While the entirety of the resources poured into Eureka and BA are used on one mode alone, targeted towards a niche grind-based playerbase.

---

While this is true, you have to remember that Eureka is pretty much a test ground for new gameplay systems and ideas. I can almost guarantee you that most of these systems will be repurposed in some way, meaning that even if Eureka is a "failure" (its not, the echochamber just likes to think it is) then the systems that have been built would still be of value.

I do agree that creating 4 unique zones plus a dungeon is excessive, but to say that the whole thing was a waste ignores the technical achievements that Eureka and BA have given to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

While this is true, you have to remember that Eureka is pretty much a test ground for new gameplay systems and ideas. I can almost guarantee you that most of these systems will be repurposed in some way, meaning that even if Eureka is a "failure" (its not, the echochamber just likes to think it is) then the systems that have been built would still be of value.

I do agree that creating 4 unique zones plus a dungeon is excessive, but to say that the whole thing was a waste ignores the technical achievements that Eureka and BA have given to the game.

---

I would argue it's just a Deep Dungeon with more people. There's nothing that was done in Eureka that could not have been done on the regular world map.

That said, I really hope they never ever do something like Eureka again.