So, I thought I'd do some simple math trying to figure out if blue mage really is as weak as people are saying. I figured I'd look at simple, one-minute rotations to have some easier numbers to work with, so I'll list what I omit per job. Keep in mind that all comparisons are at level 50 to be fair.
Black Mage
Against one enemy, you're casting Blizzard III, Thunder III, Fire III, Fire five times, and you repeat this ad infinitum. I'm ignoring all traits and the Astral Fire buff here in terms of alterations to potency, as well as spell speed, and over one minute this comes out to about 5310 potency. I'm sure if we consider things like maximum MP, spell speed, and Astral Fire III, it'll be quite a bit higher, but this'll work as a baseline.
Summoner
Against one enemy, you're casting Miasma thrice, Bio II twice, using Shadow Flare once, and using Fester three times. The rest of the time, you're casting Ruin or Ruin II. Ignoring your primal-egi and traits entirely, this comes out to about 4510 potency. I'm sure someone else can do the math for Ifrit-Egi and/or Garuda-Egi, and if someone does, please don't forget about Rouse boosting the pet's damage by 40% for 20 seconds. With enough spell speed, you may be able to get an extra Ruin or two off as well, but your rotation's pretty simple: Aetherflow and Rouse, Miasma, Bio II (Aetherflow and Rouse can go here as well), Ruin II, Fester, Ruin, Ruin II, Fester, Ruin, Ruin II, Fester, Ruin a bunch more, Miasma as it's about to wear off, Ruin some more, Bio II as it's about to expire, Shadow Flare, and Ruin the rest of the time. We are ignoring traits again.
Red Mage
This can be tricky due to not knowing whether you're casting Jolt and something else from the hip or channelling Veraero and Verthunder alongside a countdown, so we'll assume the latter for ideal circumstances. Against one enemy and starting with 0/0 mana, and also assuming you always get Verfire Ready and/or Verstone Ready from each pair of spells you cast (remember, you do have Acceleration by level 50), that comes out to about 7910 potency overall. I am ignoring traits here, too. The rotation is simply Veraero/Verthunder, and then every subsequent pair of spells is going to be Verfire/Verstone and Veraero/Verthunder while building mana evenly, using Fleche on recast, and using Corps-a-corps, the enchanted combo, and Displacement once you're at something like 80/80 before continuing with basic spell pairs.
Blue Mage
And here we are! So for this job, I'd like to point out the building status resistance enemies have that makes them eventually immune to certain debuffs. For example, if you stun something for six seconds with Faze, and then cast something else that stuns, it'll only last three seconds at best, then one, and then the enemy will be immune to stun for a while. I'm going to assume (likely wrongly) that this building resistance resets one minute after gaining immunity. I am also going to assume that we are not casting Loom and can always get into position for the Dragon's Voice without clipping the GCD. Ignoring traits and assuming the blue mage has learned everything (and is not using suicide attacks), we're looking at a rotation that's a little like this...
Opener: Bristle, Off-guard, Fire Angon/Sharpened Knife (consider range, I'm assuming Fire Angon here), Peculiar Light, Bristle, Eruption/Feather Rain, Song of Torment, Shock Strike (Mountain Buster is physical, so we're not using it due to it not being compatible with Peculiar Light), Glass Dance (total of 2700 potency if we floor decimals)
And then...
If the enemy is vulnerable to everything and is a level that's a multiple of 5 (assuming everything lands): Reasonably you're only doing your combination of the Ram's Voice and the Dragon's Voice three times, and you'll need Swiftcast for it due to the running. You're also only reasonably doing your Level 5 Petrify into Drill Cannons combo three times simply because you won't have time for Drill Cannons to hit the fourth time for the bonus potency, and this is the weaker of the two combos. Don't bother with a stun and Sharpened Knife for damage, as that's actually 10 potency weaker than casting something like Flame Thrower twice or the Aqua Breath into High Voltage combo, but do exploit someone else stunning (this is too situational to include in my calculations here however). There's going to be another Bristle into Song of Torment in the middle as well, so you're probably looking at about seven casts of 130-potency spells if you can exploit everything and all the spells land. Use Fire Angon (only from range because Knife is stronger), Bristle, or Sharpened Knife (if you're close) to keep the GCD going while you use abilities learned from primals. Assuming only Sharpened Knife is used for its 1-second cast time to make room for abilities from primals and Off-guard, we're looking at about 4140 potency overall before we consider Off-guard (6120 potency with Off-guard).
If the enemy is not vulnerable to your eclectic debuffs: Basically spam 130-potency spells, casting Sharpened Knife or Fire Angon when you're about to use an ability learned from a primal, Off-guard, or Peculiar Light. Make sure you Bristle and Song of Torment so the latter lands as it expires, which should give you room to use Eruption or Feather Rain again on recast as well. Here we're looking at about 4485 potency considering Off-guard.
That means our totals as a blue mage are 8820 potency against enemies vulnerable to our debuffs or 7185 potency if they're not.
It's important to note that Veil of the Whorl potentially will do more damage than Glass Dance if you are going to take hits. It would take at least six hits for it to reach 300 overall potency.
I also feel Moon Flute is only useful if you're tanking because Waning Nocturne is pretty insane to deal with, so I left it out of these rotations because they're meant for damage, and losing six casts' worth of time doesn't help DPS, even considering Waxing Nocturne. I'll do the math here as well, however.
If we cast Moon Flute in our opener between Off-guard and Fire Angon/Sharpened Knife, the total potency there increases to 4050 potency (a difference of 1350 potency), but we'll lose six casts' worth of time to the Waning Nocturne debuff. You'll probably want to cast Diamondback just as Waxing Nocturne ends if you can. If we're only considering the 130-potency spells, that's 1170 potency lost due to Waning Nocturne, so you can definitely say it's worth it, as that's a gain of 180 potency. The trick with it, then, is timing. If we exclude Peculiar Light from our math, your regular spells would be 292 potency each, and Bristle into Song of Torment would be 1012 potency. Therefore, you'd be looking at 2180 potency during Waxing Nocturne and a loss of 1170 potency during Waning Nocturne (so 2180 potency total for 30 seconds) instead of 3595 potency during the same 30 seconds without using Moon Flute, to say nothing of the abilities you learn from primals and reusing Off-guard.
So Moon Flute's only worth something in the opener and shortly before the end of the fight or the boss leaving the arena.
All in all, though, I don't think blue mage is lacking in the damage department compared to what other caster jobs can do at level 50.
Blue Mage DPS Versus Other Casters
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02-13-2019, 12:18 PMCeallachBlue Mage DPS Versus Other Casters
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02-13-2019, 02:05 PMKalise
Well... You also need to consider the fact that BLU scales differently to other jobs, due to their higher INT scaling to make up for a lack of weapon stats. Which adds a factor that we're not 100% sure on.
Also, BLU's rotation relies heavily on using the primal oGCD skills during Peculiar Light, which not everyone has access to (Thanks RNG!) which will cause BLU to feel weaker since without the Primal skills it's much more just spamming 130 potency skills as the sole damage output outside of Bristle > Song of Torment (Again, if people have that skill, not everyone ends up getting a group together to go farm Pharos Sirius to learn it) -
02-13-2019, 02:32 PMValdegarde
Also consider that currently other jobs aren't as balanced as they once were at level 50, the lack of Raging Strikes for example paints BLM and SMN a little low, while RDM's rapid raw potencies are a little much for 50. Still, this shows Blue Mage is far more traditionally balanced than some like to assert, with some small caveats like status immunities and potential issues like Peculiar Light for raidwide damage and White Wind's utility.
Compared to melee jobs, this damage proportion is within a range that correlates Blue Mage to the Ninja of casters, a comparison that I think would be apt with the inclusion of Peculiar Light and potential raid utility in the future (assuming some balance adjustment.) I don't believe this is out of the realm of possibility for Blue Mage to someday fill this competitive niche and create a dual meta again. -
02-13-2019, 03:13 PMCeallach
I realize that straight potency comparisons, especially since I ignored a few things, can't tell the whole story. My main point was simply that blue mage isn't exactly lacking in the damage department. I don't have the actual equations regarding Intelligence scaling, either, and I don't have a whole lot of time for testing. Perhaps you'd be willing to help me with that?
As far as how balanced jobs used to be, I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison. We didn't have blue mage or red mage back then, so we'd really only be comparing the single-target burn turret and the undisputed AoE king. -
02-13-2019, 05:09 PMRongway
Why are we ignoring easily-accounted-for traits and buffs though?
Assumption: For two equally geared DDs, before accounting for traits and buffs, potency should mean the same thing. That is, a 100 potency attack on one job should do the same damage as a 100 potency attack on another job, before accounting for traits. If this is not the case, the problem is not the potencies of one job's attacks but a problem in the formula, and it is the formula that needs fixing.
With this assumption in place (remember, I'm not saying, "this is the case" but "if this is not the case, fix this first"), then apply traits and buffs. For simplicity, let's also assume a 2.5s GCD around the board.
BLM Potency/GCD: 411 (0 Firestarters) ~ 469 (5 Firestarters), expected value 440 + extra Thunderclouds
Blizzard III: 240p * 0.7 [AF3] = 168p
Thunder III: 390p + 320p * 0.57 [TC] = 532p (+extra thunderclouds beyond the one scheduled Ice Phase use. this is the most complicated line)
Fire III: 240p * 0.7 [UI3] = 168p
Fire I x5: 180p * 1.8 [AF3] * 5 = 1620p
Total: 2528.4p * 1.3 [M&M2] = 3286.92
Potency/GCD: 411
Note: Firestarter-Fire III is 562p/GCD (including M&M2). Each firestarter will shift BLM's average potency/GCD toward this, up to a limit of 469.
SMN Potency/GCD: 416 + pet auto attacks
Bio II: 350p, 1 use every 12 GCDs (8.3 uses every 100 GCDs)
Miasma: 300p, 1 use every 9.6 GCDs (10.4 uses every 100 GCDs)
Ruin: 100p, All other GCDs (81.3 uses every 100 GCDs)
SMN base: 141.55p/GCD
oGCDs
Fester: 300p, 1 use every 8 GCDs (12.5 uses every 100 GCDs)
Shadow Flare: 250p, 1 use every 24 GCDs (4.2 uses every 100 GCDs)
oGCD total: 48.00p/GCD
Ifrit-Egi
Inferno: 300p, 1 use every 72 GCDs
Burning Strike: 135p, 1 use every 1.2 GCDs (59 uses every 72 GCDs)
Rouse: +40% bonus to (1 Inferno + 19 Burning Strikes) every 72 GCDs
Pet total: 130.78p/GCD not including auto attacks
Total potency/GCD: 320.33 * 1.3 [M&M2] = 416
RDM Potency/GCD: 453
Spells
Base from Jolt each first GCD: 180p, 6 mana
Every two GCDs ends with a Verslowspell: 310p, 11 mana
50% chance you can Verfastspell instead of Jolt: +45p over Jolt, +1.5 mana over Jolt
Dualcast total: 267.5p/GCD, 9.25 mana/GCD
On average: 17.3 GCDs to build enough for a combo
Melee Combo
E.Riposte: 210p over 0.6 GCDs
E.Zwerchhau: 290p over 0.6 GCDs
E.Redoublement: 470p over 0.88 GCDs
Combo total: 970p over 2.08 GCDs
oGCDs
Corps-a-corps: 130p, 1 use per 16 GCDs
Displacement: 130p, 1 use per 14 GCDs
Fleche: 420p, 1 use per 10 GCDs
oGCD total: 59.41p/GCD
Total
Dualcasts: 17.3 GCDs dualcasting at 267.5p/GCD
Melee Combo: 2.08 GCDs slashy-stabbing at 466.34p/GCD
oGCD total: 59.41p/GCD
Grand total potency/GCD: 348.25 * 1.3 [M&M2] = 453
BLU
Not familiar enough with the BLU panoply to do the maths on it, but if OPs numbers are correct, it's something like this (using the lower number because bosses are really what matter, and most of them are immune to most BLU gimmicks)
7185 / 60 * 2.5 * 1.5 (M&M5) = 449.06
But again, that's assuming OP's numbers are correct.
Please feel free to check my maths and add corrections if necessary. -
02-13-2019, 05:39 PMTsundereImouto
Check out my thing I did on BLU theorycrafting!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...v9hVUg3DU/edit
BLU is actually pretty strong. I did synched Nael Van Darnus on BLU and was just under the BLM (who benefitted heavily from my Peculiar Light) in our group. -
02-13-2019, 05:40 PMKaliseOne thing to note, is that for BLM, Astral Fire's damage boost stacks with Maim and Magick to mean that Fire spells during Astral Fire have a 2.1 multiplier rather than a 1.8 multiplier then a 1.3 multiplier so that 5x Fire I only deal 1890 potency rather than 2106.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Also, Firestarter procs exist, so that 40% of Fire I GCD's are replaced by Fire III's.
I did the math of level 50 BLM Astral Fire DPGCD in another thread:Which, if adding to the Umbral Ice phase would mean:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Blizzard III - 218p
Thunder III - 691p
Fire III (During UI) - 218p
Fire I x5 - 1890p
Fire III x2 (During AF) - 1008p
4025p / 10 GCD's = 402.5p/GCD on average.
Then I did previously calculate BLU damage sans Song of Torment:
I guess adding in SoT would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Base damage is 50 (25x10) = 300p
Amp'd by M&M to 450
You always wanna Bristle it because it turns Bristle into essentially a 150p GCD (As opposed to your next best option, which is Glower at 130p) so SoT is now dealing 600p
Add in Off-Guard which now makes it 900p
This will be used every ~12 GCD's which makes it 900p/12 = 75p/GCD but then remember it is 2 GCD's because Bristle so it's actually 75p/2 = 37.5p/GCD
SoT will add 600p * 0.3 = 180p to Peculiar Light, which is effectively another 180p/24 = 7.5p/GCD
So, BLU would be doing about 407 + 37.5 + 7.5 = 452p/GCD (Or a little bit less, because I don't think I averaged out how Peculiar Light wouldn't hit every Eruption/Glass Dance)
But again, if someone doesn't have the full DPS combo for BLU (Which is understandable because #SoloJob) then they're just stuck with Off-Guard/Glower/Peculiar Light which would be at best 292p/GCD (I.e. The potency of Glower against Off-Guard) with PL averaging about 14.6p/GCD (Making BLU's GCD be just below 306p/GCD) which is utter crap (Essentially about 50% more than a Healer) -
02-13-2019, 05:50 PMLaphael
I think Blu should have been stronger than it is now. Its not weak, but it should be a bit more overpowered compared to other dps at lvl 50.
It should do dps numbers like a lvl 50 dps while in tankstance, then you could much better farm those primal spells with 8x blu. -
02-13-2019, 05:51 PMRongwayAre you sure they're additive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Fire I GCDs aren't replaced, though. Since Firestarter Fire III is free, it's in addition to Fire I rather than instead of it. That's why I gave a range of 0 firestarters (damage of 8 GCDs) to 5 firestarters (original 8 GCDs + 5 Fire IIIs), since the number of GCDs changes with each Fire III cast. Buut it's possible I added that edit after you'd already begun your reply?Quote:
Also, Firestarter procs exist, so that 40% of Fire I GCD's are replaced by Fire III's.
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02-13-2019, 06:00 PMKaliseThe GCD's are replaced. Though, in terms of a rotation, you'll still cast the same number of Fire I's due to Fire III being 0 MP and thus your rotation is still "Use all your MP on Fire I, then Blizzard III"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
But yeah, when I started my reply, you hadn't put in any Firestarter procs. -
02-13-2019, 06:10 PMRongwayThey're not, though. You have enough MP for the same number of Fire casts whether you get 0 Firestarters or 5 Firestarters. If the game really likes you, you get five Fire I casts and five Fire III casts (1.024% chance that this happens), extending your AF phase to ten GCDs. So the rotation has a variable length of 8 GCDs up to 13 GCDs, and there isn't really any reason to switch over to UI prematurely when you're on such a streak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
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02-13-2019, 06:15 PMCeallachI didn't think I had the time to do a ton of number-crunching today, so I went with easier numbers. Remember, the point I was trying to make was not, "Blue mage is overpowered as the seven hells!" The point I was trying to make was, "Maybe blue mage doesn't need as much help as people seem to think in the damage department."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
It turned out I was right. I spent a lot of my time trying to come up with the rotation I theoried out in the original post and got none of my homework for college done.
As far as I know, you multiply all the multipliers together before you deal with potency. For example, a fully-buffed Self-destruct would be from Toad Oil (so potency is 1200 instead of 900), Off-guard, Bristle, Moon Flute, and Peculiar Light. So that's 1.5*1.5*1.5*1.3=4.3875, 4.3875*1200=5265 potency magical fire damage at the cost of your life. I did the math for Final Sting as well, and Self-destruct is actually stronger this way because Final Sting, being physical, can't benefit from Peculiar Light.
I really appreciate this! It looks like we came to the same conclusions on the abilities from the primals, and I hadn't noticed Fire Angon was physical (I chose it for the 1-second cast time and range). Looking at your opener, you seem to clip the GCD even more than I did, though. Do you regularly get Glass Dance and that last Glower to hit during Peculiar Light that way?Quote:
Originally Posted by TsundereImouto
I can also see why you placed Aqua Breath and High Voltage on the "don't bother" list, but I feel 260 potency with 30 seconds of paralysis has its uses. I'm kind of attached to that combo. -
02-13-2019, 06:52 PMKaliseFrom my testing, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Buffs stack additively, as do debuffs.
However, buffs x debuffs are multiplicative.
So for example, with BLU:
Maim and Mend stacks additively with Bristle.
Off-Guard stacks additively with Peculiar Light.
M&M/Bristle stack multiplicatively with Off-Guard/Peculiar Light.
Similar thing for BLM with Astral Fire and Maim and Magick (I.e. Comparing how much damage Fire I deals at 1, 2 and 3 stacks of Astral Fire and checking the increase vs the expected if M&M was multiplicative with the boost from AF)
They are though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
It's only relevant if you want to consider burst damage within a window though, such as during a particular boss phase or capitalizing on an outside buff/debuff.
Otherwise, it's just adding to the rotation. Much like how Convert adds additional Fire I's to the rotation for DPS increase. -
02-13-2019, 07:12 PMRongwayI'm talking about average potency per GCD. Firestarter Fire IIIs are in addition to Fire Is, and will increase the denominator as well as the numerator. This needs to be taken into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
The following all cost the same MP, given Firestarter procs:
Expected potency/GCD: 440 + adjustments for additional Thundercloud procsCode:B3+T3+F3 +F1 +F1 +F1 +F1 +F1 => 3287 potency / 8 GCDs, average 411 potency/GCD ( 7.78% chance)
B3+T3+F3 +F1+F3+F1 +F1 +F1 +F1 => 3849 potency / 9 GCDs, average 428 potency/GCD (25.92% chance)
B3+T3+F3 +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1 +F1 +F1 => 4411 potency / 10 GCDs, average 441 potency/GCD (34.56% chance)
B3+T3+F3 +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1 +F1 => 4973 potency / 11 GCDs, average 452 potency/GCD (23.04% chance)
B3+T3+F3 +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1 => 5535 potency / 12 GCDs, average 461 potency/GCD ( 7.68% chance)
B3+T3+F3 +F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3+F1+F3 => 6097 potency / 13 GCDs, average 469 potency/GCD ( 1.02% chance)
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02-14-2019, 04:19 AMTsundereImoutoYes, I regularly get that last glower inside of both. The idea with the swiftcast is to fit 7 GCD's under Moon Flute, and 5 GCDs under Peculiar Light. I get it consistently, 100% of the time unless I clipped my GCD somewhere during that 15 seconds. I have a 2.45 gcd so that certainly helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
Since Glower also applies paralysis, any target that you want to Aqua Breath + High Voltage will already be immune to it from casting Glower. Additionally, targets that matter and actually can be paralyzed are extremely few and far between; My theorycrafting worksheet was for use in synced lv 50 content, basically. Adds that can be paralyzed can often be struck with Missile; spending your GCD on that is much more effective. Ultimately, it felt like to me, that if something could be incidentally paralyzed, Glower could take care of it, and otherwise they were just two 130 potency GCDs with shorter range than glower.
The reason we precast glower into clipping off-guard is because Glower is a free GCD; you get the entire cast before the boss is even pulled (precasting it), so there's no difference in when you get to apply off guard. Casting it instead of a shorter-cast skill is essentially free potency. You'll note that when we cast primal skills again later, I recommend weaving off-guard with sharpened knife. -
02-14-2019, 10:16 AMPhoeniciaWhat's your testing methodology? Because I have done this testing extensively and there is NOT a single buff that is additive. Unless it is a buff that replaces another (Greased Lighting 3 replacing 2 and 2 replacing 1).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
ALL buffs and debuffs stack maltiplicatively. This is EXACTLY why the meta-comp is so strong and desired despite most buffs are 5 or 10%.
A simple test of casting Fire 1 from neutral and then comparing it to casting Fire 1 in AF3.. It is exactly 80% higher (my sample of 35 casts yielded 79.86%). Both Fire 1 in neutral and AF3 Fire 1 are affected by M&M.
For mitigation (since you tank you should know this), try popping Rampart while in Shield Oath, Rampart reduces the damage ALREADY reduced by ShO by 20%. You can try it by going to any world mob, gather a few of the same type so you can have a good sample size of number of hits. Have them wack at you with ShO+Ramps up, then Sentinel with no ShO and see how you take less damage in the latter (40% vs 38%). I mean if they stacked additively, wouldn't Shield Oath + Rampart + Sentinel + Block be 110% damage reduction? That's stronger than Hallowed Ground!! Boss hits should heal you for 10% of their damage... What happens is you actually take closer to 26.88% of the damage (73.22% total damage reduction)
DRG would probably be a better example since you don't have to wait for AF3 to time out after each Fire 1 cast. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust. Using B4B on top of HT adds 15% to your already 110% output, try it by simply spamming a non-combo'd Full Thrust (100 potency), remove critical hits then averaging them up. Try it bare, then with only HT up, then only B4B up, then both. Bigger sample size is better, go ahead and test it yourself (B4B numbers will take a while since you have to wait and you can only have so many GCDs in 20s).
Buffs and debuffs DEFINITELY have a multiplicative stacking nature. (i.e. Your damage with Storm's Eye is amplified by Slashing debuff, HT applies first, then B4B/D.Sight, then Disembowel).
In general, potency comparisons aren't always accurate (I will say never accurate). They are always done lazily and they ignore a lot of (important) factors. Multiplicative vs additive buff stacking done wrong in this thread is a clear example. They also simplify their own math, so they ignore important traits. BLM scales with SpS more than the other casters because 100% of its DMG is GCDs, whereas SMN and RDm hate SpS because a big portion of their damage is oGCDs (and a melee combo in case of RDM) which are completely unaffected by it. Meanwhile, BLU's EVERYTHING is buffed by SpS, including its oGCDs that get their cast time and cooldown reduced by it. Removing RNG does not help either. Damage/healing formula has a 10% variance between low and high, ignoring crit (a stat that double dips into itself because it increases chance and power) is also bad. I know people want to only consider/care about averages, and again, not all classes benefit from the same stat the same way.
Based on the above, the calculations in this thread have done the following incorrectly:
Scaling of UI/AF3 for BLM spells (done incorrectly or ignored). Ignoring TC and FS procs which are a HUGE portion of the lv50 DPS ratio.
Not using Garuda-Egi (the superior pet in 4.4) for SMN and taking the DoT snap shotting during contagion (also unloading festers into contgion) into account.
Assuming ver-shortspells to be 100% instead of 50% (basically the calculations should assume 50% Jolts get replaced by 25% of w/b Ver-shorts). RDM might get 1 or 2 melee combos in a minute. Calculating highest DPS potential should assume Displacement and Corpse-a-corpse being used on CD, not matched with melee combos.
All scaling on BLU unless it was done completely multiplicatively.
If you want a definitive answer to which DPS does more damage (which is pointless as none of the jobs are balanced around level 50 anymore, RDM and SAM outDPS BLM at 50, even though an optimized BLM is 10~15% ahead of an optimized SAM and RDM is in the bottom of the DPS ladder at 70) is simply by being level 50 (no level sync) and wearing the best gear for the job at level 50 and going all out on a training dummy then using certain 3rd party programs which aren't advocated here and see which DPS parses highest.
This whole topic is moot as BLU cannot be 70 and all the other DPS are balanced around level 70 abilities and content.
The only objective way to look at BLU is, in a 3:00 minute parse:
Without Primal Abilities at 130, you won't break 300 DPS.
With primal abilities, you should average ~550 DPS.
Both of the above cases abuse the ability to apply status to enemies (petrify, freeze, etc) until immunity. -
02-14-2019, 02:37 PMKaliseMy testing involved hitting a dummy as BLU with skills, getting an average of the damage per hit, then doing the same with combinations of buffs/debuffs (Off-Guard, Bristle, Moon Flute, Peculiar Light)Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
My numbers showed that the similar effects stacked additively, not multiplicatively. -
02-14-2019, 02:51 PMKabooaA quick test nekkid with Sardine (10 potency) was 4-5 damage per hit base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Off Guard: 6-7 (+50%)
Off Guard + bristle: 9-10 (+125%)
Blood Drain (20 potency) was 10-11 base.
Off Guard: 15-16 (+50%)
Off guard + bristle: 22, 24 (+125%)
Off Guard + Bristle + Peculiar Light: 28, 31 (Harder to test cuz duration limits). Bonus: +162.5%
OG, Bristle, Pecular LIght, Moonflute: 42, 46. Bonus: +243.75%
Looks multiplicative to me. -
02-14-2019, 03:54 PMCeallachThat's impressive. I actually didn't think of the "precast" section at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by TsundereImouto
I disagree. No point is moot as long as there is interest in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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02-15-2019, 11:46 AMPhoeniciaIt is moot. Interest does not matter if whatever your testing bears no real bearing. Comparing DPS between level 50 jobs is a very lost cause and does not give any indicative to any job's powers or weaknesses. As mentioned in my post earlier: RDM can do more DPS than BLM and SAM at 50. Does that make RDM the highest DPS because it beats the allegedly top DPS classes in the game? No, it is just RDM "spiking in power" earlier (at 50) while BLM and SAM need to wait until 60+ to get what makes their DPS high, being Fire IV and Kenki moves respectively. The important fact remains the same, BLM and SAM are sitting at the very top 2 spots in the DPS ladder while RDM is just making it through the middle-of-the-pack position with more jobs outDPSing it than jobs outDPS'd by it, utility and rDPS taken into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
This applies to all roles too! WHM only has benediction while AST and SCH have most of their oGCD heals (except Star and Indom respectively). PLD only has Halone while WAR and DRK have their actual DPS combos. WAR doesn't even have Deliverance nor Fell Cleave at 50. AST does not even gets its AoE until 54.
No one is "balanced" around sync'd down content. The content itself is mostly not doable at minimum ilv because we don't have the same tools, stats or jobs as we did back when it was relevant. Permanent 100% uptime damage reduction, "accuracy" stat as an anti-power-creep stat, parry/block amount scaling with STR and their chance with DEX (A relic from 1.x), should be good few examples.
Even BLU itself isn't balanced around level 50 content. it depends on what spells you have set, what mobs you are hitting, etc. SE didn't bother to balance because they had no intention to "balance" the job in neither group content nor for what it was advertised as, solo job. If what you are hitting is immune to half your shenanigans your DPS takes a heavy hit (haven't tested this scenario much). If your Missile or Tail Screw lands on something with lots of HP (Ramuh adds come to mind, they have 35k health) you'll rock silly numbers (HW levels, DPS jumped from 205lol to 850wtf levels and I didn't have any of the primal spells when testing it).
Comparing BLU to other <anything> has no bearing at all for the above reasons. Whither it does more DPS than everything or less than everything changes nothing. The job isn't balanced for its own content, being a solo job that is "unfit" for group play. It can't solo what it should, and it can't group for what it needs. Comparing its DPS when it doesn't play well with others to even compete for the role is pointless as they just disqualify.
And then there are the hypotheticals, assumptions, and incorrect-lazy-math that come in to try and level the ground in an attempt to force the comparison, which only end up messing the numbers even further.
Not just BLU, comparing jobs at a level where content is not balanced for has no bearing what-so-ever. As a matter of fact, at level 10, WAR is the top DPS class in the game because it has its AoE then, no other class does (Except DRK's Unleash, lol0dmgspell) and as such, strongest class in the game since it takes less damage as a tank! Must be OP, nerf plz!
There are many points when leveling where tanks and/or healers outpace DPS VERY hard and do more damage than the DPS themselves (level 45 and WHM's Holy in AoE, anyone? Or 54 and Fell Cleave/Goring Blade when tanks beat DPS in Single target? No?). See how "relevant" comparing a class to others at irrelevant points is?
BLU being capped at a level of irrelevance only means we can't really compare it to anything. BLU is as (ir)relevant as the content it is capped into. -
02-15-2019, 04:21 PMCeallachAnd yet, here you are, posting large paragraphs about a job that doesn't matter in an effort to silence somebody whose experiments won't affect you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
I think you're just salty as all hell, and I fail to understand why you deserve any attention. I will do as I like. You are welcome to your opinion, but do not expect others to live by it.
I trust that will be the last we see of you. Good day. -
02-15-2019, 11:38 PMPhoeniciaI am not silencing anyone. For one, what you said is typed and is out there to be seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
What I was doing is clearing misconceptions of incorrect math and assumptions, used to compare something of irrelevance in an attempt to add relevance to it instead of addressing the real issue of a job being broken and a waste of resources that the company keeps stressing they don't have.
Math is not opinions.
Why would I be salty? It's not like you playing BLU will make me lose my raid/dungeon spot, or my orange/gold parses because your parse is so high? It's not like you can solo hunts so I can't get to them in time or have them reported in linkshells any more. It is not like YOU being BLU will prevent ME from playing it should I wish to.
But since opinions are brought up, Limited Content is very bad content. The word "limited" alone should make it so. Why would anyone want to be limited? This game does not need limited content. It needs good content that people ask for.
This is my opinion and if you feel like arguing it, go ahead.
This wasn't salt, if anything, it's people hating to admit where they are wrong. I pointed out where the math was wrong. And where the logic of comparing oranges to sour lemons is faulty.
So instead of assaulting my personality and worthiness of attention, you could provide your logic to where I am wrong and I might take a step back if you are convincing enough.
And for your last line, all I will say is "LOL". -
02-16-2019, 01:28 AMKabooahttps://www.memecreator.org/static/i...es/4989478.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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02-16-2019, 03:57 AMJonnycbad
BLU was balanced solely on its solo performance in the open world ARR 2.0 zones, and Masked Carnival. No other balance considerations were made for party play other than making certain bosses immune to instant death.
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02-16-2019, 09:10 AMCeallachWell, first, none of my math was incorrect. To my knowledge, no one has the equations that show how Intelligence scales for blue mage versus how it scales for other jobs, and the fact blue mage's arms have no attributes on them at all would logically be enough to reasonably assume blue mage gets more power out of less Intelligence. Also, how do you define "relevant" here? Just because blue mage cannot participate in level 51+ content doesn't make it irrelevant. As long as there is curiosity, there is relevance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
No, math is not opinion. You stating that blue mage is "irrelevant content" is.
Perhaps you wanted blue mage to be more than what it is, but in order to do that, much of what it should be able to do would have to be removed. Or perhaps you just don't like me personally for some reason. Either way, you're not adding to the discussion, so you can go away.
"Limited content is very bad content." This is an opinion. And I happen to enjoy it. Do you have a problem with that? And I'm curious about how blue mage really stacks up. So what if I can't take this job into Alphascape V4.0 (Savage)? So what if other jobs aren't balanced around level 50 content? This entire thread was really just an experiment by me to sate my own curiosity, and you and your ridiculous attitude are not welcome in that endeavor. Blue mage gives me a reason to play the game that doesn't involve having to deal with other people. So does gardening. So does gathering. So does crafting. So do quests of all types. Sure, I needed help with learning blue magic spells, and I'm grateful for that help. Most of those players didn't have your sass. But ultimately, I now play blue mage once each week to get the bonus rewards from the Masked Carnivale, and considering I'm too busy with college to really play the game (plus I'm really burnt out on this game as a whole), I am actually very thankful for more "irrelevant" solo content. Whatever keeps people like you away from people like me is very, very welcome.
Now, I don't care what your opinions are, and you are (again) more than welcome to have them. But if you're going to keep on like this, you should actually contribute instead of being a "sour lemon" yourself. -
02-16-2019, 08:40 PMPhoenicia
First of all, I did not mean to come off as the person with attitude or "sass". And I did not mean to undermine your effort of coming up with math. I actually meant to help you get closer to accurate numbers.
No, I do not not-like you. I don't know you outside of these forums. If anything I'm indifferent.
I did not come here discussing opinions either.
But regardless, for whatever offence I may have caused for you, I apologize. I hope you take what you read from here onward not as an attack on your person or efforts, but as means to reach more relevant understanding of where BLU stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
In general, mathing out potencies is inaccurate for many reasons I mentioned in the earlier post which you can refer to if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Relevant numbers for you:
I know parsers are frowned upon by the devs. But this case is one where parsers are helpful. If you don't use one, have someone who does parse for you, invite them to party and whack on a dummy with all the combos you like on BLU and you'll get numbers like above. You can also upload it to FFLogs and have the site present things in graphs and splits ability ratios and what not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
If you want some figures, MNKs used to do 600~650 in ARR, now they can't because they lost Touch of Death and Blood for Blood. BLMs used to ~600, now they can't because they lost Raging Strikes and some of their spell values changed. Potent Poisoning Potions were a big deal, now not anymore. List can go on and I won't.
Comparing a job "balanced" around the content made for it (namely the Carnivale) against jobs balanced around level 70 raids is NOT comparing apples to apples.
One other reason I think BLU comparisons don't serve much is 'role'. Blue is identified as a caster because it casts, but it isn't meant to play purely as one. It is kind of like comparing WAR's DPS to say NIN. They both slash, but that's where similarities end, one is a tank, the other is a DPS.
Excuse you? I'm the orange!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
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02-17-2019, 09:10 AMCeallachI'm sorry, too. I have a bad habit of taking everything personally, however slight or not, negative or not. I was just so excited by the idea that I might finally be able to contribute something, and it got dashed to bits. With all the talk of how "irrelevant" blue mage is, I felt like I may as well delete my character and go back to playing single-player games because I was worthless as a human being.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Okay, so what are we doing here? If blue mage is "irrelevant," isn't it a total waste of time and effort to figure out things like efficient rotations and potential DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Are you sure? Maybe I should ask that one YouTuber if you're a friend of the Lemon Queen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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02-17-2019, 11:19 AMKabooa
That's kind of the problem. Over the duration of a fight, Blue Mage dips even with condition susceptible enemies. The difference between combo use and glower spam is probably like 5% over a duration. I have gotten similar results as Phoenicia with just glower spam set ups.
But you can't use those rotations against most bosses, and the ones you can cheese with missile, death, and tailscrew are also kind of limited. Basically all the bosses that matter.
Blue Mage could have been its own self contained party of Blue Mages where "Tank" mage sets up the burst opportunities for the DPS mages, but that doesn't really happen. If you can't missile cheese the boss, then you're just spamming glower until it's in self destruct range.
If you're having fun, awesome. I had fun with it too, while it lasted. I sincerely hope you continue to have fun with it. I don't think many of us on this side of the fence would think otherwise, we just wish it stayed fun for us too. -
02-18-2019, 01:48 AMPhoeniciaWhat are you doing here? I don't know. If you enjoy playing BLU, play it. It is not a waste of time or effort to have fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach
For "efficient DPS" or whatever you fancy, that is fine, do it. Make sure you get the correct match so you get accurate results. But after that, we have nothing to compare it to. We have no other jobs "limited" to 50. BLU doesn't play in parties so it can't compete with other party based roles, etc. You catch my drift?
I don't know any lemon queens. But I like lemon in my tea... Sometimes. :) -
02-20-2019, 02:48 PMCeallach