loot system for 24 man should use tokens in Shadowbringers

Forgive me if someone has already brought it up; I couldn't find anything in a search (but my terms may not have been specific enough).

So as the title suggests, I really think they should switch how loot drops for the 24 man raid, especially with the popularity of Nier and how much people will want the gear for glamour. It should be a token system similar to how the 8 man raids do it.

Tokens for the head, arms, feet, and waist can drop from the first two bosses, and tokens for pants and body would drop from the third and fourth boss, with the main difference compared to the 8 man raids being that you only need one of each token instead of 2 or 4 for some of them. It would still be locked to only one token a week at first, so you couldn't get most of the tokens for a full set in just one run.

You still have the element of rng because you have to roll on a token and win the roll, but it's not like how the current system is set up where you might run the raid 15 times and never even see the tank coat drop (and therefore running it on tank so you can roll "need" doesn't even help).

This also helps with the issue that Square Enix initially put in the "Greed only" rule for Ridorana for; if you're only rolling on tokens instead of actual gear, people could run on the jobs they are good at or already have geared and still roll on tokens that they could use to gear up alt jobs.

It already happens occasionally anyway but what is to stop someone from going in to the duty, getting the token they need from boss No.3 and then leaving the raid, they have no reason to continue if they got what they needed. Unlike with the 8main raids where you have to complete the duty to get to the chests at the end, at that point leaving wouldn't effect the party anyway. RNG knowing you MIGHT get that piece of gear in a chest as apposed to a token is what keeps attracting players to run the alliance stuff to begin with.

I don't think something being popular is enough to change a loot system, perhaps some players don't like Nier, I mean some don't like Monster Hunter so you know preferences really. Honestly I liked the Ivalice raids but didn't expect anything to change, so probably just a matter of sticking with it, and if Nier is really that popular lots of people will be running it often, so think of all those short queues.

What if instead of just giving everyone automatically a token at the end, a couple of them could drop in the chest from the final boss for each alliance separately. Make it where you can only have one token at any point, but you can ONLY roll on it if you haven't gotten any loot from it that week. This way if people don't see what they want in the alliance raid, they have a chance to get exactly what they want at the end of it.

If they have trouble programming a token to drop in this way, then they could make it a level 1 accessory. Make it be the same form as 'The Emperor's New Ring' or shuch, so it's worthless as a glamour, but it's perfect to trade in for a piece of gear they want.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

It already happens occasionally anyway but what is to stop someone from going in to the duty, getting the token they need from boss No.3 and then leaving the raid, they have no reason to continue if they got what they needed.

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Well as you have pointed out, they can already do that. I've seen people leave after the first or second boss. But that's what the "Party in Progress" option is for. I used that last week as it happens; queued as tank and they had just finished the second boss. When people leave or get kicked, there's usually a replacement pretty quickly; so I don't see why a token system would be any different in that regard. Additionally, the people leaving later in the week have usually been running it multiple times already; that's why they leave when it drops. They already got the orbonne coin in the first run, so they are only running for a gear drop later in the week.

Also, you brought up the 8 mans not dropping loot until the end, but the 8 mans are also just four bosses split up into four different instances. You don't have to fight all four of them in succession if you don't want to, so it's not the same time investment that running the 24 man raid is.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

What if instead of just giving everyone automatically a token at the end, a couple of them could drop in the chest from the final boss for each alliance separately. Make it where you can only have one token at any point, but you can ONLY roll on it if you haven't gotten any loot from it that week. This way if people don't see what they want in the alliance raid, they have a chance to get exactly what they want at the end of it.

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Personally I like that idea, but I have a feeling that Square Enix would say something about how it being that easy would make people run it less. At least with the token system as I proposed it, only people blessed with wonderful rng would only have to run the raid once a week. The rest of us unlucky people would be running more than that to even win a token, so it would keep people running it, which is why it's already set up the way it is. The token just takes some of the RNG out, but not all of it. Like I may not get a token until the fifth run, but then when I do I can definitely trade it in for the specific piece of gear I want.

They should just make it at end everyone gets one token that can be used for any type gear from it. Make where body and legs takes 2 tokens, weapon takes 4 tokens, and everything else 1 token. Maybe make it where get max 2 tokens a week.

I think a token system would work better for the 24 mans, specially if brought alongside with one little change...

The raids have 4 bosses, each dropping 2 items for 3 potential slots (1st boss Head/Hands/Waist, 2nd Legs/Feet/Head, 3rd Waist/Chest/Feet, 4th Chest/Legs/Hands). They should change it the bosses dropping 1 token for each of their respective slots which would mean a guaranteed 2 drops of each slot per raid.

Making it one token per piece of gear, it would effectively remove the class from the drops. Which would make it not matter what class you do the raid as and can as Square seems to want it that you can use your main class.


While people can leave after getting their token, it is just basic decency keeping them there, but at the same time, decency kind of flies out the window once you do the raid 10 times already that week because it keeps throwing gear nobody rolls on because it's the wrong class.

I think this concept comes up every expansion. It's a good idea, but for some reason SE doesn't want to do it.

Having a token system would be a great way to make less drops go to waste, to make it more likely to get the loot people are after, to let people play the job they feel like playing that day and to even out the loot distribution between armor types.

What I feel would be the best token system for 24 mans is already in game (links below). All they would have to is replace the loot drops with the corresponding tokens for each boss and add a vendor for exchanging them.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Antique_Helm
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Antique_Sollerets
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Antique_Tassets
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Antique_Gauntlets
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Antique_Breeches
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Antique_Mail

24man loot has become completely irrelevant apart from glamour since we got augmentations for crafted gear.

This has started in 4.3 and will likely continue - basically you can have a full set of gear equivalent in ilvl to what 24man gives you on day one of an odd-numbered patch (equal to tomestone, 10 behind augmented tomestone/raid)

About the only thing relevant from 24man is the weekly token for gear upgrades ... so if they really want to do something about people not giving a single care about 24man, let them fix what it drops before they fix how it drops.

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

24man loot has become completely irrelevant apart from glamour since we got augmentations for crafted gear.

This has started in 4.3 and will likely continue - basically you can have a full set of gear equivalent in ilvl to what 24man gives you on day one of an odd-numbered patch (equal to tomestone, 10 behind augmented tomestone/raid)

About the only thing relevant from 24man is the weekly token for gear upgrades ... so if they really want to do something about people not giving a single care about 24man, let them fix what it drops before they fix how it drops.

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It's still valid gear if you don't want to spend the gil.

And if you do try to get the gear, it can easily lock you out of other content as you spend the entire week just running the raid over and over, passing on the same items again and again. Not leaving time for anything else.

Maybe add the option to use the current guaranteed drops (such as the coins from the Return to ivalice series) to allow you to buy the gears from a vendor. So in case you don’t get any from the chests, you can can collect coins. After several runs and coins you get the option to buy the gear you want.

If anything it should be removed from 8 man.Not added to other content.
This kind of system that goes against everything about MMORPG drops.
The whole point is that everyone isnt supposed to be able to just casually get the gear they want like that.The whole system of trading in item x to get guranteed item you want just makes me cringe.
People want things too easy these days in games and implementing systems like this is giving in to those newer gamers.
You eliminate the concept of rare gear this way.

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Originally Posted by Rasler_Heios

Maybe add the option to use the current guaranteed drops (such as the coins from the Return to ivalice series) to allow you to buy the gears from a vendor. So in case you don’t get any from the chests, you can can collect coins. After several runs and coins you get the option to buy the gear you want.

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This, I want this to be added to raids.

If the player does not loot an item, they get one at the end of the chest.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

You eliminate the concept of rare gear this way.

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LOOOOOL

Gear is unimportant throw away trash here, besides ultimates weapons which are just shiny everything else is basically worhtless or smt even dead on arrival (anemos stuff for example).

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

24man loot has become completely irrelevant apart from glamour since we got augmentations for crafted gear.

This has started in 4.3 and will likely continue - basically you can have a full set of gear equivalent in ilvl to what 24man gives you on day one of an odd-numbered patch (equal to tomestone, 10 behind augmented tomestone/raid)

About the only thing relevant from 24man is the weekly token for gear upgrades ... so if they really want to do something about people not giving a single care about 24man, let them fix what it drops before they fix how it drops.

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Yeah, but token gear is pretty limited, due to the limitation on tokens. Orbonne gear is still quite useful for alts, as is the 380 gear from Alphascape. It's only really obsoleted for your main (since by now, most people who care have a full set of token gear/savage for their main). Sure, people with lots of time on their hands maybe have an alt in Scaevan gear, but the 380 and 390 certainly isn't "obsolete".

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

If anything it should be removed from 8 man.Not added to other content.
This kind of system that goes against everything about MMORPG drops.
The whole point is that everyone isnt supposed to be able to just casually get the gear they want like that.The whole system of trading in item x to get guranteed item you want just makes me cringe.
People want things too easy these days in games and implementing systems like this is giving in to those newer gamers.
You eliminate the concept of rare gear this way.

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Yes, because I would love spending 6 months praying for rng to grace me with a single bis piece of gear only for it to be irrelevant in the next patch.

If this game used more horizontal progression it would work. But it doesn't, it's vertical and gear gets cycled out every 3-6 months with constant ilvl increases, making your point quite frankly, stupid.

It might help if the game kept track of what jobs are in your party. It's pretty annoying when half of the chests you open has Ninja gear in it but nobody in your group plays Ninja

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

It might help if the game kept track of what jobs are in your party. It's pretty annoying when half of the chests you open has Ninja gear in it but nobody in your group plays Ninja

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Sometimes it feels like the game knows exactly what is in the party, and goes out of it's way to not drop gear for the classes present. Tanks and Healers included.

I used to want the Orbonne tank gloves, did 5 runs as tank. on the last one Literally every possible other piece droped but not them... like, rly i need that 390 pants when im on 400...

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Yes, because I would love spending 6 months praying for rng to grace me with a single bis piece of gear only for it to be irrelevant in the next patch.

If this game used more horizontal progression it would work. But it doesn't, it's vertical and gear gets cycled out every 3-6 months with constant ilvl increases, making your point quite frankly, stupid.

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I once went 3 expansions in EQ without upgrading my pants, because of the 3 different upgrades between what I had and what I got we saw 1 drop.

1. In 2ish years. (I have been informed we did see 2 drop one week I was on vacation, so we in fact did average 1 plate pants drop per expansion in that time)

That's when I became done with this kind of loot system in mmo's.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

It might help if the game kept track of what jobs are in your party. It's pretty annoying when half of the chests you open has Ninja gear in it but nobody in your group plays Ninja

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This was a big reason why they tried the Greed-only experiment in the first place. Just because you're not doing the 24-man as your Ninja doesn't necessarily mean that you don't want the Ninja gear. Maybe you went tank for faster queues, maybe your NIN doesn't meat the minimum ilevel. Whatever the case, there will be situations where players will want to roll on gear that isn't for their current job.

On the other hand, holy crap if a NIN belt already hit the floor once, don't give us another NIN belt on the next boss!

People have been asking for a token system since at least 2.0 that i'm aware of. I'd personally love to see one. Though I have the feeling us running the same piece of content over and over again until we get the exact drop we want and roll high enough to beat everyone else is exactly what the developers want so as to see the content played as much as possible.

I totally agree that we need tokens for the 24 mans, especially with the relatively recent changes of being able to upgrade crafted gear, the upgraded crafted combined with tome gear makes the 24 man gear pretty much pointless outside of glamour. Or maybe that's just me, I know I will definitely choose paying a couple hundred thousand gil and some tomes to get a piece of i390 gear over farming weekly locked 24 man raid for specific gear pieces that could take dozens of runs to get one item. I did that 24 man gear farming back in 2.5 with WoD and have never bothered again, I'll do my weekly run and take whatever I can and that's it for the week, unless I really want some piece for glamour.

I just want to eventually be able to buy the TT cards, music, and minions with the coins. I have more coins than I'll ever need to upgrade gear, but my friend hasn't been able to win Construct 8 or Ramza yet, and we ran Lighthouse nonstop and have been running Orbonne daily since it dropped.

Assuming every piece of gear takes only ONE token then fine, but I am strongly against any changes that mean you must grind the same raid multiple times just to get one piece of gear especially if you only get a single token per week like in savage raids. 24-man gear is not generally even that good and something like that would be completely ridiculous. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the current system and don't agree that it needs to be changed in the first place.

There is a reason to not do it. If you automatically give a token at the end, people will run it 1 time only the reset day, and never enter again till next week, causing queues being too long at the end of the week.

Token system = set amount of time until everyone has the drop that he/she wants = content dies faster. Not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Token system = set amount of time until everyone has the drop that he/she wants = content dies faster. Not gonna happen.

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That's not really true. Because you're limited to 1 piece of gear a week, all a token system does is reduce the number of times you have to run it. You would still earn gear at the same rate (or even slower if they did 1 week for minor pieces and 2 weeks for major pieces).

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Originally Posted by Beckett

This was a big reason why they tried the Greed-only experiment in the first place. Just because you're not doing the 24-man as your Ninja doesn't necessarily mean that you don't want the Ninja gear. Maybe you went tank for faster queues, maybe your NIN doesn't meat the minimum ilevel. Whatever the case, there will be situations where players will want to roll on gear that isn't for their current job.

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Tank queues for the 24 mans are awful, actually. You get faster queues as a dps. But that, along with what you described, are exactly why a token system would work better. Want to grab glamour gear or upgrades for your tank but don't want to be in queue for half an hour? Run on your geared dps or healer, get a token that you can use for tank gear. Or in the situation you described, run on your job that meets the minimum ilvl, but use the token you get to trade in for ninja gear.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

It's still valid gear if you don't want to spend the gil.

And if you do try to get the gear, it can easily lock you out of other content as you spend the entire week just running the raid over and over, passing on the same items again and again. Not leaving time for anything else.

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Yes, you get it. That's actually partially what prompted me to write this. I really want the tank gear for glamour but between the tank queues being awful and then there being a good chance tank gear won't even drop, I just feel like my time is better spent doing anything else. The fact that the gear drops are set up the way they are actually is discouraging me from running it more than once a week, not encouraging me to run it multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's not really true. Because you're limited to 1 piece of gear a week, all a token system does is reduce the number of times you have to run it. You would still earn gear at the same rate (or even slower if they did 1 week for minor pieces and 2 weeks for major pieces).

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So everyone has to run the content just once a week to get the token and not several times to get the loot they want? Yeah looks that i'm wrong and the content will be longer alive then ever.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's not really true. Because you're limited to 1 piece of gear a week, all a token system does is reduce the number of times you have to run it. You would still earn gear at the same rate (or even slower if they did 1 week for minor pieces and 2 weeks for major pieces).

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Which is exactly the point that the person you're quoting is trying to make?

Instead of someone running it 9-10 times a week, they'd just be running it once a week. So activity would be at it's highest at the start of the week, and then it'd go down over the course of the week.

They want you running the duties over and over for gear... it's part of the plan. I sincerely doubt they'll be changing this anytime soon. It's not just 24 man it relates to dungeon gear in general.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

It might help if the game kept track of what jobs are in your party. It's pretty annoying when half of the chests you open has Ninja gear in it but nobody in your group plays Ninja

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You might still want this ninja piece though. I was RDM in my Orbonne run this week and did get this DRG piece i wanted, with no DRG in my group at all.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

So everyone has to run the content just once a week to get the token and not several times to get the loot they want? Yeah looks that i'm wrong and the content will be longer alive then ever.

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Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware you always win the roll for tokens from Alphascape the first time. >_>

The suggestion was for it to work like Alphascape, so you would still need to run multiple times until you GET your token.

Furthermore, your claim was that we would earn gear faster, which I was correctly pointing out that you wouldn't. You'd actually earn it slightly slower if it was the same style as Alphascape.

I much prefer the loot style of the 24-man raids over the 8-man raids. Running as the job you want the gear on gives you a nice boost in your chances of actually winning a piece of gear where as with the 8 man it's a free-for-all. I imagine if someone is using only the raid drops to gear up a character, it's going to possibly be annoying as you may not see that very specific piece of gear drop, but I've always used it to supplement the other methods, so no big deal really.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

So everyone has to run the content just once a week to get the token and not several times to get the loot they want? Yeah looks that i'm wrong and the content will be longer alive then ever.

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No? You're still rolling against 7 other people for any given token. Unless you are really, really blessed by rng (or running in a premade), you will probably have to run more than once to get the token you want. Like, in the 8 man raid, do you always win the shaft in your first run of O12n? Probably not.

I'm not saying the raid will hand out tokens; you will still have to roll on them. And roll the highest number to win them. So, there's still RNG involved that will make it so people will have to run it multiple times.

The difference is that I would rather run Orbonne 15 times to get a token for a chest that I can immediately trade for the tank chest than run Orbonne 15 times only to see the dragoon or ninja chest drop all 15 times. I can't roll on something that doesn't even drop. In the current system, any given piece you want is gated behind two layers of rng instead of just one. The piece has to actually drop, and then you have to win the roll. With a token system, you just have to win the token.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Yeah, but token gear is pretty limited, due to the limitation on tokens. Orbonne gear is still quite useful for alts, as is the 380 gear from Alphascape. It's only really obsoleted for your main (since by now, most people who care have a full set of token gear/savage for their main). Sure, people with lots of time on their hands maybe have an alt in Scaevan gear, but the 380 and 390 certainly isn't "obsolete".

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To clarify: I'm talking ab out CRAFTED gear. Yes the "limited tomstone gear" accrues at the same rate as your 24man gear - roughly a piece a week (plus the tome gear has accessories and a weapon option, neither of which is true for 24man - and to furth put the boot in, the tomestone gear upgrades to better than the 24man gear as well) ... bu if you had a set of 380 crafted from 4.4, it takes ~3500 mendacity (ytes, mendacity, the ones you can get unlimited amounts of) to upgrade it to i390 .. .which is the same ilvl as tghe basic tomestone gear -- and the Orbonne drops.

Furthermore, you don't even need to spend money on HQ gear on market board either, you can buy up the NQ's nobody wants and convert them to Rakshasa Tokens in Rhalgr's Reach, add your Doman Reiyaku's you buy for your mendacity and buy HQ Yama (i390) gear. Double bonus. No 24man salt required, just a quick in prog run for that sweet lasst boss for the coin.

Again - if they want to fix the rewards from 24man, let them start with what they drop from it, rather than how it drops.

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

To clarify: I'm talking ab out CRAFTED gear. Yes the "limited tomstone gear" accrues at the same rate as your 24man gear - roughly a piece a week (plus the tome gear has accessories and a weapon option, neither of which is true for 24man - and to furth put the boot in, the tomestone gear upgrades to better than the 24man gear as well) ... bu if you had a set of 380 crafted from 4.4, it takes ~3500 mendacity (ytes, mendacity, the ones you can get unlimited amounts of) to upgrade it to i390 .. .which is the same ilvl as tghe basic tomestone gear -- and the Orbonne drops.

Furthermore, you don't even need to spend money on HQ gear on market board either, you can buy up the NQ's nobody wants and convert them to Rakshasa Tokens in Rhalgr's Reach, add your Doman Reiyaku's you buy for your mendacity and buy HQ Yama (i390) gear. Double bonus. No 24man salt required, just a quick in prog run for that sweet lasst boss for the coin.

Again - if they want to fix the rewards from 24man, let them start with what they drop from it, rather than how it drops.

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I would certainly rather jump into Orbonne a few times a week rather than spend all of the time required to craft and gather that stuff. I'm perfectly ok with there being several ways - crafting, raids, etc - to get the same ilvl gear. That only makes it "obsolete" if you choose to do the other option. And even then, the crafted gear may not be your class's BiS.

Honestly I think the same number of drops, but piece tokens would be better. Sure, it would cut down on some runs, but not totally - if two belt tokens drop and nobody needs a belt then that's still something that's going to go unclaimed. And there would be competition for all pieces - but there would still be fewer unclaimed pieces instead of "I've seen the healer top drop 20 times but never the caster."

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

If anything it should be removed from 8 man.Not added to other content.
This kind of system that goes against everything about MMORPG drops.
The whole point is that everyone isnt supposed to be able to just casually get the gear they want like that.The whole system of trading in item x to get guranteed item you want just makes me cringe.
People want things too easy these days in games and implementing systems like this is giving in to those newer gamers.
You eliminate the concept of rare gear this way.

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You are missing the point. If you want to make it hard to obtain gear, just make the raids harder. How many people have the 12s mount? 8s mount? That's the right way to make rare loot. RNG doesn't make the content harder, just grindier.

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This kind of system that goes against everything about MMORPG drops.

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We largely gave up on those systems multiple generations of mmo's ago.

Even those games and players (like me) who used to advocate fiercely for those systems stopped advocating for those systems.

Its dead. And for good reason.