Provoke/Ultimatum is NOT a part of your rotation!!!!

I don't know where this idea has started or why it's so spread, but for the past few patches, I've noticed an increasing amount of tanks and cotanks using Provoke/Ultimatum as a regular part of their rotation and its become such a pet peeve of mine but there's no non-rude way to point out how ineffective it is. I don't know who's spreading this misinformation but I feel like it has to be from somewhere with how much I'm seeing this lately and it needs to stop.

For those of you not in the know, Provoke and Ultimatum work by matching your aggro to top aggro and adding +1. So if you're already top, you're literally only adding the lowest tick of aggro you can to your current and now they're on cooldown so if something happens to you or a cotank, you won't have them up to take the aggro off of your party members!

Save Ultimatum and Provoke for when you need to pick something up such as when you died and were raised or the main tank dies or a tank swap is necessary.

While I’m not a tank main, I believe that Provoke + Shirk are part of normal tank rotations in 8-man content to help with aggro. Provided that there are not any upcoming swaps.

Provoke and shirk is how you tank swap. Also, ultimatum is extremely useful in fights that contains aggro resets such as neo exdeath.

Two people above me responded with a note about tank swaps... a note that was already in the OP...

I believe the OP is likely referring to people that spam provoke / ultimatum constantly. I've seen this for years across many MMOs with mostly new tanks. In WoW I used to see them about once a month - tanks that would taunt on cooldown.

The only MMO where this IS normal for a tank is Elder Scrolls Online - it has no aggro system, you just get a single target taunt that lasts 15 seconds so... you have to spam it and tab through all the adds one by one...

But I see it in a lot of other MMOs instead - in MMOs where it's basically useless, like here, or worse where it can mes you up, like WoW where too many taunts in a short period of time causes them to stop working.

This is just a thing... some people will do it... they just don't understand how the mechanics work... eventually you'll encounter them in every MMO you try.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Two people above me responded with a note about tank swaps... a note that was already in the OP...

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I'm not talking about swaps. I'm talking about an off-tank Provoking and then immediately Shirking the main tank to give the MT free enmity. That's not a swap.

I believe that is fairly common in 8-man content so that the MT doesn't have to do things like aggro combos or going into tank stance to keep the DPS from ripping aggro. I know my static's tanks have specific points in fights where the OT Provokes > immediately Shirks the MT purely so that our MT doesn't have to go into Defiance.

Thereby, it is part of a tank's rotation when there are not any upcoming swaps that would need an OT Provoke and an MT Shirk to the OT.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

yes Provoke+ shirk is used to get a boost of aggro for MT
but its not apart of a rotation its be like saying Esuna or raise is apart of a healers rotation

heres a example of a rotation

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Not quite the same. Provoke+Shirk is free enmity generation for the MT, and it should be used by tanks in higher end content. The timings vary depending on a fight and what the tanks are doing, but I wouldn't call it a situational ability like a healer having to Raise/Esuna - in an ideal situation, there is no Raise in a fight, and Esuna is useless in high-end content anyways because debuffs/DoTs are rarely cleansable.

OP said it should be saved purely for swaps or picking up adds, but that's not true in high-end content. Tanks don't normally sit on it waiting for a swap or for an add to appear (or they shouldn't anyways); if there's enough time between an upcoming swap, they use it to give their co-tank free enmity so that the co-tank doesn't have to go into stance or do an aggro combo.

I believe tanks in raiding situations have "Provoke+Shirk rotations" just like they "cooldown rotations" - the timings vary but it's still used. It's not just sat on. You're thinking "rotation" as in "1-2-3 rotation" or opener sequences, but I'm not talking about just that - I'm talking about the overall rotation for an entire fight.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm not talking about swaps. I'm talking about an off-tank Provoking and then immediately Shirking the main tank to give the MT free enmity. That's not a swap.

I believe that is fairly common in 8-man content so that the MT doesn't have to do things like aggro combos or going into tank stance to keep the DPS from ripping aggro. I know my static's tanks have specific points in fights where the OT Provokes > immediately Shirks the MT purely so that our MT doesn't have to go into Defiance.

Thereby, it is part of a tank's rotation when there are not any upcoming swaps that would need an OT Provoke and an MT Shirk to the OT.

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yes Provoke+ shirk is used to get a boost of aggro for MT
but its not apart of a rotation its be like saying Esuna or raise is apart of a healers rotation

heres a example of a rotation

https://i.imgur.com/GulzEMF.png

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Originally Posted by Duskane

yes Provoke+ shirk is used to get a boost of aggro for MT
but its not apart of a rotation its be like saying Esuna or raise is apart of a healers rotation

heres a example of a rotation

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If you use it on CD when it's not necessary to delay it due to mechanics, it's part of the rotation.

Much like how Inner Release is a part of the rotations you posted, while again, it can occasionally be delayed due to mechanics (You don't want to pop IR at a time when you aren't free to Fell Cheese all over the boss for its duration)

Comparing it to Esuna or Raise isn't accurate, since Esuna and Raise are direct responses to mechanics or situations. Meanwhile, Circle-Shirking is just something that is done to improve the buffer of enmity between the MT and DPS outside of times where it is saved to respond to a mechanic (Which would just be a Tank swap that would need the OT to taunt, but even then, there exists 2 taunt skills. Provoke and Ultimatum which means that so long as the OT is in range to Ultimatum, there's literally no reason not to just Circle-Shirk on CD)

It depends one the tanks what they wanna do. If you have a tank that just ‘Tanks’ in tank stance then voke + shirk is not needed because he will never lose Aggro (except death). If you rather want to do dmg like many tanks want to you drop tank stance and if you have good dps you will sooner or later lose Aggro when you don’t spam Aggro combos. Voke + shirk gives you the lead you need so good dps never catch up with you even if you go dmg stance.

Hyomin hit the nail on the head with pointing out that it is pretty standard among experienced tanks to use Provoke+Shirk or Ultimatum+Shirk as the co-tank in 8-man content to create an easy enmity boosting cycle that allows the MT to avoid relying on their own enmity building tools which often divert from other important aspects such as maximizing dps.

Just one note on that though, when doing provoke+shirk try to position yourself with the MT so you don't accidentally get caught in an unlucky situation where you turn the boss for a split-second and the boss decides that is the perfect time to do a cone AoE or swipe attack.

Oh and don't try to Provoke+Shirk in 24-man content, Shirk only works on party members which the other alliance's tanks are not.

Lastly if you do find yourself in the unfortunate situation of having just used Provoke+Shirk and something happens like the MT goes down, remember you also have Ultimatum at your disposal. Just make sure that you position yourself right on top of the boss/enemies before using it since it is a PBAoE with a range of 5y (the same as Flash and Unleash).
Honestly though, if you just Provoke+Shirked the boss and MT, you should be 2nd on the enmity list with a good margin and will be all set to take over as MT.

I run an absurd amount of roulettes daily, and 80% of the tanks I end up with in light party content use Provoke and Ultimatum as a pull or just after it. So whether or not the OP intended for this to apply also to light party duties, it's a thing in light party duties. And a lot of the time, the people wasting Provoke/Ultimatum on pull are the same ones who lose aggro to Scatter spam, but still won't listen to explanations of basic enmity generation.

I've only ran into a tank like this maybe once a year.

It doesn't really warrant a thread. Seems like someone just needed to vent and couldn't do it with nachos.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm not talking about swaps. I'm talking about an off-tank Provoking and then immediately Shirking the main tank to give the MT free enmity. That's not a swap.

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OK and that STILL DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE what the OP was referring to / complaining about...

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Originally Posted by colorfulcheshire

I don't know where this idea has started or why it's so spread, but for the past few patches, I've noticed an increasing amount of tanks and cotanks using Provoke/Ultimatum as a regular part of their rotation

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Which is not only very different from the 'swap' I presumed you were referring to, but ALSO very different from 'using to manage enmity when paired with shirk' that you were referring to.

I stand by my comment - I am surprised you've never met one of them, but these tanks that just spam the provoke button on cooldown exist... especially in low level content, but I've even seen one in a WoW raid... It's just a thing that pops up in MMOs... like the folks that show up for content in only half the iLevel normal for the place, or who haven't put half the skills on their bar, or never did the Job quest. None of it's common, but it happens and sticks in memory.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

OK and that STILL DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE what the OP was referring to / complaining about...

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He does refer to “tanks and cotanks”:

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Originally Posted by colorfulcheshire

but for the past few patches, I've noticed an increasing amount of tanks and cotanks using Provoke/Ultimatum as a regular part of their rotation. . . .

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So, it’s possible that he is referencing some 8-man content scenarios here. And, in 8-man content, (good) tanks and their (good) co-tanks regularly Provoke/Ultimatum and then Shirk to give the MT free aggro provided that there are not any upcoming swaps.

I was also challenging the last part of OP’s post: Provoke/Ultimatum + Shirk are not just sat on for adds and/or swaps, especially in endgame content such as Ex, Savage, and Ultimate. There’s a myriad of uses for them beyond just those. There are some instances in 8-man content where the co-tank uses Provoke simply to be second on the aggro list, like in Final Omega for his blue-marker laser beam thing (can’t remember what the name of the attack is called, but I believe OTs Provoke there just to try and end up second on hate there so it won’t target a DPS—which has happened to me before).

when I am on pld and I am not tanking the boss I will always use provoke shirk in my opener it's a huge boost of eminty

I pull with Provoke in dungeons and normal raids only because its much farther distance than Shield Lob, and good way to get on the hate list as soon as the countdown hits 0

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I pull with Provoke in dungeons and normal raids only because its much farther distance than Shield Lob, and good way to get on the hate list as soon as the countdown hits 0

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My first spell is landing at 0 though, so the tank needs to do something that actually generates enmity.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

My first spell is landing at 0 though, so the tank needs to do something that actually generates enmity.

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Generally people who pull with ultimatum and provoke know that they need to follow it up with something that actually generates aggro.

I use provoke to pull more packs in light dungeons so I can continue with the ones I'm already working on, followed up by my group aoe skill of choice depending on the class.

Ultimatum is more used for grabbing aggro when you're on GCD. If my one of my party members grabs a pack I can instantly stop the entire pack from hitting my party member a single time and then grab aggro with an aoe skill. If I just waited for an aoe skill they would've gotten hit at least one time which can be the difference between death and living. You can think of ultimatum as an interrupt essentially.

My main intent was talking about tanks in light party dungeons or main tanks when not referring to tanks swaps. ie I see a lot of tanks who already have top aggro spamming provoke and ultimatum on CD and it drives me bonkers bc it's useless and may even be detrimental if a necessary tank swap is involved or if in a situation where the off tank can't (or won't) pick up after mt dies.

No, I love provoke and ultimatum and tanks who use them in tandem with shirk for that juicy juicy aggro gain for their mt, but if you already have too aggro, using provoke and ultimatum yourself is useless and bad practice

Edit: also, sorry for the confusion with complaint about cotank using it. I absolutely love voke/shirk. No, I legit mean tanks with either no intent of tanking or who are maybe just rude who off tank BEHIND the boss and include voke/Ultimatum in their damage rotation to the point that I just shirk them and let them have it bc I'm so fed up. I realize now that was poor wording bc niche situation but I've had it in a few trials and alliances and it makes me want to drink

Pretty sure OP is talking about tanks using provoke/ultimatum in dungeons on trash and bosses after already establishing enmity. I see it all the time. The tank mains in my FC mates have griped about it as well when they play a different role. There's just a lot of players who don't understand how these two abilities work.

Some of it might come from FFXI, as provoke was a enmity generating skill from that game. But it doesn't matter, players need to read their tooltips.

I don't tank high-end duties so I had no idea OTs were provoking+shirking to give hate to the MT. Maybe tank stance does need to go away if players are doing things like that. There's no point in having a tanking gimmick that allows them to increase defense/offense if we're just going to continue to find ways around not having to be in tank stance.

Edit: didn't see your last post colorfulcheshire. Sorry about that!

I have accidentally hit provoke via miss click while tanking before. I'm a terrible player. I'm sorry it enrages you.