“2x job” instead of “limited job” ?

Seems some people are not excited for the concept of a “limited job.” So I propose the concept of “2x job.”

Give Blue Mage 2 soul stones. Similar to how crafter specialists work. When you have the “solo” crystal on, you do the current concept of BLU.

When you equip the “party” BLU crystal, you get a basic set of “BLU” actions that are balanced for party content, that are given without class quests or from acquiring from monsters. Just gained from leveling the class as you would.

Thoughts?

I personally don’t think this would be difficult to do. But I’m sure someone is going to be able to oppose this and run it into the ground. :)

Even though it’s just meant to give SE the opportunity to come up with even more options.

I personally am 100% ok with BLU’s current concept. Just offering a second simple option to appease everyone.

Sounds good, but this would require them to essentially make 2 jobs in place of half a job.

If a compromised version of BLU that is eligible for DF matchmaking is really what people want and they keep asking for it then I'm sure it could be possible some day. I wouldn't be opposed to it but I'm also in the camp of not having a problem with solo oriented jobs as side content.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Sounds good, but this would require them to essentially make 2 jobs in place of half a job.

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They are already putting a ton of effort to make content specifically for “”limited jobs” so them making a soul stone and default potency actions would be little effort.

They will already have the gear animations and everything else. All they really need to do is balance the potencies.

No, again you can make premade parties, use squadrons, and now be able to use Trusts in the new expansion so what's different with roulette???. Also as long as I have played since Shiva was announced in 2.0 , there's nothing really special about duty roulette? Really nothing. Half of the time I que in I say "hi" and I get no response back or they say "hi" back and go about our merry way , make our way though the dungeon, and the boss is defeated, we all say, tyty ,GG ect and leave....That's it. Same with trials.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

No, again you can make premade parties, use squadrons, and now be able to use Trusts in the new expansion so what's different with roulette???. Also as long as I have played since Shiva was announced in 2.0 , there's nothing really special about duty roulette? Really nothing. Half of the time I que in I say "hi" and I get no response back or they say "hi" back and go about our merry way to, though the dungeon, boss is defeated, we all say, tyty ,GG ect and leave....That's it. Same with trials.

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Daily bonuses in the forms of tomes, seals, and exp are a big, big reason why people do Duty Roulette.

Anyways this seems like a fair idea. I don't mind the idea of BLU as side content, but I can understand the annoyance of people who have been waiting for "their" job only to get it as the limited job.

I'd personally take the route of giving Blue Mage a Learn Tab similar to the Performance tab on Bard, which swaps over to the other system and is only usable in solo/unsynced content. Could even treat it like a form-shift ability or similar to Trance/tank stance, to allow the extra actions to be added in.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

They are already putting a ton of effort to make content specifically for “”limited jobs” so them making a soul stone and default potency actions would be little effort.

They will already have the gear animations and everything else. All they really need to do is balance the potencies.

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You are seriously downplaying the work that would go into designing two sets of abilities for BLU. It isn't as simple as slapping "balanced" potencies onto the "solo" abilities and calling it good for group play. The abilities would have to be designed to build and flow off one another and be balanced against one another to form some semblance of a rotation. That would most likely require reworking of what some abilities do, how long they do it, who they can do it to etc.. I'd rather they choose one or the other, preferably the solo aspect as that is what interests me, and stick with it instead of trying to balance a job that toggles between two ability sets designed with different goals in mind.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Seems some people are not excited for the concept of a “limited job.” So I propose the concept of “2x job.”

Give Blue Mage 2 soul stones.

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Ugh, just use stances. There are like five or six playstyles available, so wouldn't it be better to spread out the abilities so you wouldn't have to cut as many of them from the game?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You are seriously downplaying the work that would go into designing two sets of abilities for BLU..

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And I think you’re over complicating the work that would go into just doing it once and then just rebalancing potencies just like any other job.

As opposed to... I don’t know... creating content for specifically *just* BLU to give it any kind of end game.

Honestly I love the idea of how BLU is being implemented but I actually am concerned what will happen once everyone is cap level. We just tuck it away? It’s not like FSH or BSM where other jobs still are depending on it to be active for the other aspects of the game.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

No, .

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What are you even saying “no” to. You didn’t even say anything about BLU except it cant do roulettes. Which we already know that. And that wasn’t the topic of the thread. My suggestion was so it can do endgame. And you started talking about roulettes. And ... what? LOL.

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What are you even saying “no” to. You didn’t even say anything about BLU except it cant do roulettes. Which we already know that. And that wasn’t the topic of the thread. My suggestion was so it can do endgame. And you started talking about roulettes. And ... what? LOL.

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I say "no" because it's seems like it would be more work for the devs and more time sink just to fit blue mage into end game. They already said that blue mage will unbalanced the other jobs as blue mage can do everything and anything. It's not tied to the Holy Trinity. For example , if BLU learned a good amount of healing spells and debuffing spells, healers would raise hell and Nerf because people wouldn't want a healers for endgame, same with tanking and DPS. I know there's already a meta for endgame with BLM SAM and RDM being kicked out in favor of other jobs already, and I think blue mage will make the situation worst.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I say "no" because it's seems like it would be more work for the devs and more time sink just to fit blue mage into end game. They already said that blue mage will unbalanced the other jobs as blue mage can do everything and anything. It's not tied to the Holy Trinity. For example , if BLU learned a good amount of healing spells and debuffing spells, healers would raise hell and Nerf because people wouldn't want a healers for endgame, same with tanking and DPS. I know there's already a meta for endgame with BLM SAM and RDM being kicked out in favor of other jobs already, and I think blue mage will make the situation worst.

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They why not implement a specialization system? They can only be one at a time and must get gear individually. End game BLUs must decide what they want to focus on. Probably still a lot of work, but it's not unreasonable.

It just seems unnecessarily complicated.

I don't even understand why SE considers it to be so crucial that a Blue Mage has particular spells that would make it wildly unbalanced in parties. Does Level 5 Death really need to be implemented as usable spell? I'd be more than happy to never even see that spell exist in FFXIV.

I think it's more than possible to just make a Blue Mage that aligns with the current job structure. The job can be thematically accurate to Blue Mage without having 100+ unnecessary spells to learn.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

When you equip the “party” BLU crystal, you get a basic set of “BLU” actions that are balanced for party content, that are given without class quests or from acquiring from monsters. Just gained from leveling the class as you would.

Thoughts?

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so tell me a well balanced Blue Mage Kit which still mirrors the core of Blu Mage versatility for grp content... thats actually the problem no? Either all skills have to be mid/low buffs/atk like smns devotion or you have to cut most of the iconic skills to hold the balance... you might say "SE did a good job in cutting down core skills in the pvp profiles... but even here every pvp profil is cut to the major skills of the specific job... here again how would the core Kit of a Blu Mage look like? who should decide which skill is in and which skill is out in a given Kit of a Blue Mage...?

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Originally Posted by Elamys

They why not implement a specialization system? They can only be one at a time and must get gear individually. End game BLUs must decide what they want to focus on. Probably still a lot of work, but it's not unreasonable.

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this might be bad... cause not u (the player) will decide which skills you will focus on but the hardcore raid-community. The problem with Blu Mage in general is that you can build "Builds" like in most other MMOS. Something what is absolutely out of the current game design FF14 is using. If u take Blu for endgame you can actually cut 80% of their skills at all cause it would just be the raid-build which would survive in the end.

Facing this point - the whole job idea of getting 1001 skills to just use 5 of them in the end wouldn't make things better, would it?

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Originally Posted by Neela

this might be bad... cause not u (the player) will decide which skills you will focus on but the hardcore raid-community. The problem with Blu Mage in general is that you can build "Builds" like in most other MMOS. Something what is absolutely out of the current game design FF14 is using. If u take Blu for endgame you can actually cut 80% of their skills at all cause it would just be the raid-build which would survive in the end.

Facing this point - the whole job idea of getting 1001 skills to just use 5 of them in the end wouldn't make things better, would it?

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Those numbers are pretty wildly inaccurate, but I digress. Most of the abilities across every job aren't used consistently. They're support, utility, niche abilities. BLU in the example I put out could possibly keep a variety of those other abilities, making it a solid support job, but the core rotational abilities could change to reflect tank, healer, DPS. Again, it would need a lot of work and balancing, but it's certainly not impossible. I mean, the hardcore raid community might decide "never bring a BLU specialized for healing" but that's not really any different than what we have right now, is it? Where certain jobs are shunned? And yet even those jobs still have players.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I don't even understand why SE considers it to be so crucial that a Blue Mage has particular spells that would make it wildly unbalanced in parties. Does Level 5 Death really need to be implemented as usable spell? I'd be more than happy to never even see that spell exist in FFXIV.

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My guessing for why they went this route is because they didn't want to have a repeat like with summoner, where people still complain because they got egis instead of full size primal summons. People want to have wildly powerful abilities like Level 5 Death as ridiculous as it seems. The choice was pretty clearly between giving people a weak version of these spells, not giving them at all, or giving them but restricting where they can be used. People want the fantasy of BLU but they can't have it exactly as it was in other games and still have it work in XIV. I warned the people in my FC about that constantly, that when BLU was added it was probably going to be a disappointment.

i would been happier if they made it a jack of all trades but a master of none. pick the skills to be either a Healer, DPS, or Tank. could be fun going as a whole 8 man bluemage party. back in HW you had the man mode tanks going in clearing raids for fun and to show how they dps as tanks.

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

i would been happier if they made it a jack of all trades but a master of none. pick the skills to be either a Healer, DPS, or Tank. could be fun going as a whole 8 man bluemage party. back in HW you had the man mode tanks going in clearing raids for fun and to show how they dps as tanks.

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because that worked so super well with RDMs?... if they go with a jack of all trades - the comm will never stop asking for buffs "to be competitive" in savage fflogs-epenis league. : /

If they do so do you not think (given how SE works) that we would in turn loose out on another job? I think we would
It would be extra work if you believe it or not and they could be working on other content. They will have time to review later on once they get enough player feedback once players actually play it

Or, stay with me now, make the job right from jump and dont do this beyond stupid limited job crap.

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Originally Posted by Meta-Flare

Or, stay with me now, make the job right from jump and dont do this beyond stupid limited job crap.

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Or, stay with me now, make the job as it is currently being designed and let people have fun with what it is.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Or, stay with me now, make the job as it is currently being designed and let people have fun with what it is.

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Or, stay with me now, add the blu side content like it has already been announced and let those people have fun with it then add a way for it to be used in the full game for the 6.0 expac so the rest of us can have fun with what we want.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Or, stay with me now, add the blu side content like it has already been announced and let those people have fun with it then add a way for it to be used in the full game for the 6.0 expac so the rest of us can have fun with what we want.

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Or, stay with me now, we can accept that there isn't some great compromise to be had where both sides get what they want. SE isn't going to go to unrealistic lengths to create two separate versions of BLU so that both sides of this situation get what they want, which means in the end one side is not going to be satisfied, whichever side that ends up being in the end.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Or, stay with me now, we can accept that there isn't some great compromise to be had where both sides get what they want. SE isn't going to go to unrealistic lengths to create two separate versions of BLU so that both sides of this situation get what they want, which means in the end one side is not going to be satisfied, whichever side that ends up being in the end.

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Or, stay with me now, we don't have to accept it and a lot of us don't. Unless you're wanting to say that SE is not adding any more jobs after 5.0 then there's no reason that a future combat job can not be blue mage. And if there will be no more jobs after 5.0 then there will be a lot more anger than the limited blue mage backlash.

This blue mage is not a combat job, it's a "limited job" and is actually just content. The current classes and jobs are a form of content but are also a lot more than just that. DoW/M are the tools for how we interact with the pve and pvp portions of the game and there's nothing wrong with us asking for blue mage as a DoW or DoM.

As someone who prays to see Blue Mage made into a balanced and functional job for all content, and who also doesn't want to see everything unique to Blue Mage stripped away, I have to be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of the dual soul stone approach.

It is more work placed on the shoulders of the development team compared to simply having one or the other, but also, I don't really want it to feel like Blue Mage has an "identity crisis" so to speak. I would prefer to see Blue Mage be cohesive across content. If spell restrictions become a necessity to have a balanced Blue Mage, I would have its full list of spells accessible only through the Masked Carnival because that is the only content that has been created with BLU's full list of spells in mind.

Don't get me wrong. In the months leading up to BLU's announcement, my pet project was to create a fan concept for Blue Mage. It was designed to be as grounded as possible, using real actions from real monsters that already existed within FFXIV. The goal was to prove that Blue Mage can work as a balanced and functional job in FFXIV, but the project was never finalized. Eventually, I told myself, "I'll just let SE figure it out," and well... back to the drawing board I go. Once we understand the function of every action available to Blue Mage, I hope to contribute towards a proposed solution that attempts to retain as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Or, stay with me now, we don't have to accept it and a lot of us don't. Unless you're wanting to say that SE is not adding any more jobs after 5.0 then there's no reason that a future combat job can not be blue mage. And if there will be no more jobs after 5.0 then there will be a lot more anger than the limited blue mage backlash.

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It is highly improbable that SE would use up resources to release a 2nd version of a job they've already released. They could change the design of BLU, that is possible, but they aren't going to design and release another job and label it BLU as well.

And where is this bit about SE not releasing jobs past 5.0 coming from? You've seem to pull that out of somewhere....

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

As someone who prays to see Blue Mage made into a balanced and functional job for all content, and who also doesn't want to see everything unique to Blue Mage stripped away, I have to be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of the dual soul stone approach.

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Though I sincerely hope that SE sticks with how they're designing BLU and am excited to play it as such, I can agree that regardless of how things end up SE should focus BLU towards a set goal. Trying to pseudo split it isn't going to leave either side of the issue satisfied as it'll just end up a disjointed mess with them trying to cover too many bases, so to speak. If it remains as is, let it remain as it. If they decide to change it, then they need to commit to that.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

It is highly improbable that SE would use up resources to release a 2nd version of a job they've already released. They could change the design of BLU, that is possible, but they aren't going to design and release another job and label it BLU as well.

And where is this bit about SE not releasing jobs past 5.0 coming from? You've seem to pull that out of somewhere....

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I said that "unless you're wanting to say" that. Not that you did. The point was that a full version of blue mage could be one of the jobs in 6.0 or later since it would require a similar amount of work. Less work on animations and more work on balancing than most jobs. The blu we are getting is not a DoW or DoM. It's a limited job and is side content. I hope people enjoy it and I also hope that we get a DoW/M blue mage one day.

It could be through an additional job crystal(s), curated spell set that is balanced, or make a toggle that lets you swap between the two versions like how pvp changes the current jobs.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I said that "unless you're wanting to say" that. Not that you did. The point was that a full version of blue mage could be one of the jobs in 6.0 or later since it would require a similar amount of work. Less work on animations and more work on balancing than most jobs. The blu we are getting is not a DoW or DoM. It's a limited job and is side content. I hope people enjoy it and I also hope that we get a DoW/M blue mage one day.

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I didn't say you were paraphrasing me....I said where is this bit coming from because the entire notion that SE wouldn't add new jobs post 5.0 wasn't brought up until you mentioned it, so it understandably didn't make much sense in context. If they turn BLU into a full job in 6.0 it will be at the expense of the BLU we currently will be getting. That is to say the BLU we will be getting would be redesigned into this hypothetical 6.0 BLU. It is highly unrealistic that SE will design and release 2 versions of the same job.

Also just for clarification, there is nothing released by SE so far to suspect that BLU won't be categorized as a DoM, especially considering it will be using DoM Caster gear.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I didn't say you were paraphrasing me....I said where is this bit coming from because the entire notion that SE wouldn't add new jobs post 5.0 wasn't brought up until you mentioned it, so it understandably didn't make much sense in context. If they turn BLU into a full job in 6.0 it will be at the expense of the BLU we currently will be getting. That is to say the BLU we will be getting would be redesigned into this hypothetical 6.0 BLU. It is highly unrealistic that SE will design and release 2 versions of the same job.

Also just for clarification, there is nothing released by SE so far to suspect that BLU won't be categorized as a DoM, especially considering it will be using DoM Caster gear.

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Won't be a DoM in the sense that it can't do the full range of content available to the current DoM classes/jobs.

I didn't say you said it but the argument that "they already have too much to work on and balance" and "they should just focus on the jobs that are in game now instead of adding new ones" have been put forth by others on your side. It was to counter the point of "don't use resources on blue mage for the full game". It looks like the way I put it caused a good amount of confusion so I apologize if you felt I was putting words in your mouth.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Won't be a DoM in the sense that it can't do the full range of content available to the current DoM classes/jobs.

I didn't say you said it but the argument that "they already have too much to work on and balance" and "they should just focus on the jobs that are in game now instead of adding new ones" have been put forth by others on your side. It was to counter the point of "don't use resources on blue mage for the full game". It looks like the way I put it caused a good amount of confusion so I apologize if you felt I was putting words in your mouth.

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Not sure what that has to do with being categorized as a DoM, but yes BLU will have content it can and cannot do compared to the other DoM jobs.

The point of "don't use resources on BLU for the full game"? You mean my comment that it is unrealistic of SE to expend resources to make 2 versions of the same job?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Not sure what that has to do with being categorized as a DoM, but yes BLU will have content it can and cannot do compared to the other DoM jobs.

The point of "don't use resources on BLU for the full game"? You mean my comment that it is unrealistic of SE to expend resources to make 2 versions of the same job?

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So then it's not really a combat job to a lot of us.

The point is that I believe we both can agree that the people on my side saying that limited blu is a waste of resources are wrong. I don't think it's a waste of resources to add things to the game that players have been asking for. I don't agree with limited jobs as a concept and worry about the future of the game if they continue with the idea. I do not want the content to be removed and believe it could remain the same even if limited jobs as an idea is scrapped.

But just as it's wrong for people on my side to call what other players want a waste of resources, it will also be wrong for people on your side to call what we want a waste of resources.

Just out of sheer curiousity. Did we really need a third thread of this? Cause at this point. I think we can definitively say. This is not a winnable debate by either side. Both has valid points, both has it's wishes and desires, and by god both have made their opinions loud and clear. Though Blueyes I admit to being curious about this concept you are working on. I look forward to reading it one day.

As for the forum topic. While it does seem unlikely to do a "2x" job system. It's not entirely impossible. Well out there in the world of improbable but who knows what the future holds if enough people worldwide ask for it. I think it more likely a restructure but the idea of a restructure seems to lend credence to this "limited system" being a launching pad for ideas ala some kind of public unofficial PTR to see what happens and then release a more balanced BLU after enough data has been collected. Something which has been debated in these forums before and I'll admit, also seems pretty unlikely.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

So then it's not really a combat job to a lot of us.

The point is that I believe we both can agree that the people on my side saying that limited blu is a waste of resources are wrong. I don't think it's a waste of resources to add things to the game that players have been asking for. I don't agree with limited jobs as a concept and worry about the future of the game if they continue with the idea. I do not want the content to be removed and believe it could remain the same even if limited jobs as an idea is scrapped.

But just as it's wrong for people on my side to call what other players want a waste of resources, it will also be wrong for people on your side to call what we want a waste of resources.

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I apologize, but I can't figure out where to draw that line in the sand and say "This is not really a combat job" given what we know about BLU and the fact that combat and engaging in combat is its primary means of game play interaction. It isn't a job like the other DoM jobs I can agree to that however, but I don't view that as a bad thing.

I can agree and understand that you and others want BLU to be implemented just as if it were any of the other jobs and while I don't desire that and will continue to voice my support of what is being given to us, I still feel you all should voice your opinions on here and I'll continue to do the same. Additionally, I am not calling what you want a waste of resources, rather I am calling the use of resources on BLU A and BLU B [This conceptual idea of having 2 fleshed out designed jobs called BLU] as something I can't see SE wasting resources on.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I apologize, but I can't figure out where to draw that line in the sand and say "This is not really a combat job" given what we know about BLU and the fact that combat and engaging in combat is its primary means of game play interaction. It isn't a job like the other DoM jobs I can agree to that however, but I don't view that as a bad thing.

I can agree and understand that you and others want BLU to be implemented just as if it were any of the other jobs and while I don't desire that and will continue to voice my support of what is being given to us, I still feel you all should voice your opinions on here and I'll continue to do the same. Additionally, I am not calling what you want a waste of resources, rather I am calling the use of resources on BLU A and BLU B [This conceptual idea of having 2 fleshed out designed jobs called BLU] as something I can't see SE wasting resources on.

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That's fine that you don't view it as a bad thing but plenty of us do. I wish that it didn't meant we have to be odds. Would like to see the sides come together so that our side can get what we want and reduce the risk of them not doing more solo content like this in the future due to the backlash. That we support each other in getting what we want AND not at the cost of the other side's request.

You might want to edit this "as something I can't see SE wasting resources on". I'm going to believe the first part of that statement and that the end was just a brain fart. Others might just see that end part and take your post the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

That's fine that you don't view it as a bad thing but plenty of us do.

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There are also plenty of people who are looking forward to it, but it is fine that you view is badly.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You might want to edit this "as something I can't see SE wasting resources on". I'm going to believe the first part of that statement and that the end was just a brain fart. Others might just see that end part and take your post the wrong way.

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Why would I edit that? It is all part of a single statement that conveys I don't find a BLU similar to current jobs to be a waste of resources had they chosen to have made that instead or to, if it comes to be, that they redesign BLU into that, rather I find it unrealistic that SE will waste resources on designing, releasing and supporting 2 versions of BLU. If someone "takes that the wrong way" so be it, I suppose.

Still early days, don't know for sure that they aren't already thinking about expanding BLU access to content at a later date, aside from them committing to raise its level cap and add more spells. But... we do already have a lot of 'normal' jobs too... isn't it more interesting in a way for them to do something different as side content rather than cram in more balance-tuned casters to compete for raid spots. I'd like to see more 'limited' jobs if it lets us interact with the world in new and interesting ways. I think it adds a lot of value, especially for people who enjoy all kinds of casual content outside of endgame raiding.

So basically SE has two choices. A) Shelf the job citing Player feedback until they figure out how to make it a viable party based job or B) Launch it as a Limited Job and see if players enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

So basically SE has two choices. A) Shelf the job citing Player feedback until they figure out how to make it a viable party based job or B) Launch it as a Limited Job and see if players enjoy it.

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It's more of SE will Release it as is and see if people like it. because they are going with it no matter how we feel. Guess what that isn't the issue and never really should of been. SE thinks Blue Mage is Solo and truth is that's what they want it to be that they work hard to deliver it that way. I hear A) choice a lot but I'm standing with the Japanese Player Base on this one and that is Thank you SE for bring Blue Mage to the Game and now lets work on it.