Please nerf butcher's block potency

So I was just in a run with a WAR OT and he was catching up on enmity like crazy, I could barely keep hate off him, thought he must be doing crazy high damage or something.

But I started watching him and noticed, he was using butcher's block as OT.... I told him to stop and he complained that it's his highest potency combo, at which point naturally the party jumped on him telling him to use storm's path.

But it's stupid for BB to be WARs highest potency combo in the first place. It just confuses WARs into thinking it's their dps combo (like the above), when it's not, they should never be using it any more than DRK or even PLD.

So please SE, lower BB potency and raise the enmity modifier so the enmity generation is the same but the damage is the weakest of the combos, in line with the other tanks. Stop the madness.

Butcher dmg is alrdy lower then path an storm.

The lost of 10 gauge is a dps lost.

Well in that case just let the OT take the lead if they want to MT so badly, don't really need to nerf an action because one player isn't fully utilizing the rotations they have available.

We're they not using Shirk? Seems like the use of it would make this entire thing a no problem, and with all role actions for tanks open there's no reason not to and just seems plain considerate. I'm just assuming though.

That's not dev team to "fix" that, that's War player in general to learn that, if you're OT, you don't use your enmity combo.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

That's not dev team to "fix" that, that's War player in general to learn that, if you're OT, you don't use your enmity combo.

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Ok but why not “fix” it? There’s no reason for BB to be WARs highest potency combo, as OP said it leads to nothing but confusion where WARs mistake it for their strongest dps tool, something neither of the other tanks do.

It’s not your strongest combo, but to new WARs it LOOKS like the strongest combo. If it had lower or even equal potency to eye and path then the choice of combo would become a lot more clear cut. BB for enmity, eye for debuff, path for gauge.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Ok but why not “fix” it? There’s no reason for BB to be WARs highest potency combo, as OP said it leads to nothing but confusion where WARs mistake it for their strongest dps tool, something neither of the other tanks do.

It’s not your strongest combo, but to new WARs it LOOKS like the strongest combo. If it had lower or even equal potency to eye and path then the choice of combo would become a lot more clear cut. BB for enmity, eye for debuff, path for gauge.

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There is no fix to be had - if someone can't count 1 and 1 together and see that 10 extra gauge translates into 70, 104 or 150+ potency depending on the spender (Inner Beast, Fell Cleave and Upheaval respectively), someone need to explain that to them or they should plainly quit Warrior. You have enough time figuring out that enmity combos should be avoided if you don't tank.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

There is no fix to be had - if someone can't count 1 and 1 together and see that 10 extra gauge translates into 70, 104 or 150+ potency depending on the spender (Inner Beast, Fell Cleave and Upheaval respectively), someone need to explain that to them or they should plainly quit Warrior. You have enough time figuring out that enmity combos should be avoided if you don't tank.

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Sadly this is not new content I'm talking about, it was an O10s pug group. If there are WARs somehow getting all the way to endgame content without figuring this out there's something horribly wrong, this was not the first person I've run into doing this and I can tell you now it won't be the last unless it gets changed.


So yeah, there kind of is a fix here. LOWER THE POTENCY! Neither of the other tanks has to figure out that their enmity combo is not their highest dps combo, why should WAR?

What exactly are you opposed to? It's already not WARs strongest combo so it doesn't need to be that high potency, ideally WARs never want to use the BB combo unless they have to so lowering the potency changes nothing for WARs who know how to play the job.

So what is it you don't want? More WARs to have an easier time figuring out their combo priority? Less hassle for tanks who get paired with WARs that don't know their skills? What exactly is your problem?

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

Sadly this is not new content I'm talking about, it was an O10s pug group. If there are WARs somehow getting all the way to endgame content without figuring this out there's something horribly wrong, this was not the first person I've run into doing this and I can tell you now it won't be the last unless it gets changed.

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Such a change will fix nothing. Either you read through your tooltips and count 1 and 1 together and actually try to understand how your job works - or you don't.

I have seen dozens of PLDs and DRKs who sit in tank stance while offtanking and spamming enmity combo, despite the fact that it's not their highest potency combo. This is not only a WAR problem and a "fix" will fix nothing. You simply can't patch out bad gameplay.

The issue isn't the skills themselves, the issue is the incompetence of some players who won't actually learn how their skills work, and further assume, that they are correct and everyone else is wrong. I've seen all 3 tanks do it at one point or another. I usually play PLD and many of time I've had to pull even though there has been WARs and DRKs in party, too clueless to know they have better aggro gen on pull, but don't fancy wasting the parties time, I'll end up pulling, and not half way through my rotation, will I start seeing my co-tank use their aggro combo repeatedly... whether they dislike me tanking in SwO, or dislike pulling (in which they need to pick up a new job because tanking ain't for them or actually learn how to tank), it is frustrating for it to happen regardless of which tank it is. Usually I'll just shirk them and dps away the rest of the fight, since no matter how much you complain to them or about them, a lot won't be willing to accept advice and improve if they're at 70 doing end game content unless they are looking to actually improve.
But yes changing potency of BB won't have a real affect in any meaningful, you will still get tanks that think they should be in tank stance 100% of the time even as off tank and spamming their aggro combo, this isn't just an issue specific to WAR.

I won't offer "fixes," as I think that's a question best answered by reasonable people who main as WAR.

I do wish to add to the list of concerns, however.

I've noticed during NM hunts that if an equally geared and/or skilled WAR really wants to rip the Ace from you, they can pretty much do so at will and never give it back. It's not a big deal when the tank in question is actually competent instead of engaging in drunken tanking and other follies, but I find it worrisome that I as a PLD cannot ever dream of standing even the slightest hope of snatching the Ace back from one.

I'm not saying that WAR should be nerfed. I'm saying SE really, really needs to playtest the three tank classes to gain empirical data on how much enmity each job actually generates in practice, and if the results are in accordance with the "real-world" results the devs had intended, and then find fair and equitable ways to rectify that without "robbing Peter to pay Paul," as it were, so that players don't feel like their favorite jobs are being "attacked."

On another note, please, PLEASE do not make us Heavensward Paladins again, SE. I really do not want to relive those days. :(

Nah, just increase the potency of Storm's Path.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

I've noticed during NM hunts that if an equally geared and/or skilled WAR really wants to rip the Ace from you, they can pretty much do so at will and never give it back. It's not a big deal when the tank in question is actually competent instead of engaging in drunken tanking and other follies, but I find it worrisome that I as a PLD cannot ever dream of standing even the slightest hope of snatching the Ace back from one.

I'm not saying that WAR should be nerfed. I'm saying SE really, really needs to playtest the three tank classes to gain empirical data on how much enmity each job actually generates in practice, and if the results are in accordance with the "real-world" results the devs had intended, and then find fair and equitable ways to rectify that without "robbing Peter to pay Paul," as it were, so that players don't feel like their favorite jobs are being "attacked."

On another note, please, PLEASE do not make us Heavensward Paladins again, SE. I really do not want to relive those days. :(

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Few things. Max enmity play is really a wierd thing to care about because the only time that makes any sense is on old hunts. Crapping on damage for overkill enmity in any other scenario makes no sense at all.

2nd, Not really. It entirely depends on the length of the fight. Drk actually has the best enmity in short fights bar none. DAPS is ridonculous and they can spam that until they are out of MP. It also requires no setup/warm up combo like storms eye. Pld actually does the best in long duration fights because FoF lasts forever and there is no need to use any other combo than halone for enmity. Drk eventually runs out of MP for DAPS and either stops doing enmity to regain MP or takes a big hit to enmity generation forever. War needs to refresh eye. War also only has unchained for 20/90 for a 25% damage boost while Pld FoF has the same 25% damage boost but up 25/60. The shorter the fight the better drk is. Longer the fight, more Pld pulls ahead. Neither need to waste 3 gcds and maintain a buff. War fits smack in between requiring a longer warm up, but a larger burst once it gets going with unchained, but then falls right back off.

War's big enmity awesomeness really isnt about creating the MOST enmity possible. It is about making the most enmity while being DPS efficient which is the thing that actually matters for 99.9% of the game. Hunts are a shit show anyway. Any old hunt anyone can cap in a couple actions. New hunts all tanks are more than capable of tanking and it just depends entirely on how long the fight is which no 1 tank has any control over and how much damage you sacrifice for enmity.

As for the OP, players are stupid. Every job has individuals that dont read tool tips and play in horrendously bad ways. That isnt BBs fault by any stretch. Go talk to the darks that dont use darkside or the Plds that dont use either stance. SE cant fix stupid and neither does this suggestion.

get better gear, git gud

It seems most ppl are missing the point of the OP which is in fact valid. It doesn't matter that the change would be useless in the grand scheme of things, what they are asking for is a clear way for people to see that it's NOT the optimal combo to use for damage. When you look over the tooltips and see it has the highest potency out of all your available combos, it's no wonder someone who may not do a whole lot of research would think it would be the go to combo to use for damage which it clearly isn't. There is absolutely no reason for this "problem" to exist, the other tanks doesn't have a higher potency on their enmity combos, why should WAR's when all it leads to is incorrect usage of people that just picks up the job and plays without doing too much research.

And yes there are plenty of other scenarios where ppl play a job wrong, but that doesn't excuse this one from existing.

Dark's used to be higher before the constant SE buffs.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Few things. Max enmity play is really a wierd thing to care about because the only time that makes any sense is on old hunts. Crapping on damage for overkill enmity in any other scenario makes no sense at all.

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Hi, Izasha! Curiously enough, I did actually specifically refer to NM hunts in my previous post, and we do seem to be on the same page in that regard, so that's a good thing.

At this time, I see no reason to address the remainder of your post because it doesn't really address anything I said nor am I disagreeing with it. Perhaps when you witness hunt groups dropping like flies from Angada's cleaves because that "other" tank who needs to prove their e-peen by hogging the Ace refuses to turn him around, you may understand where I'm coming from.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Thela

It seems most ppl are missing the point of the OP which is in fact valid.

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The point is clear enough; it's just a laughable justification for nerfing Butcher's Block.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

Hi, Izasha! Curiously enough, I did actually specifically refer to NM hunts in my previous post, and we do seem to be on the same page in that regard, so that's a good thing.

At this time, I see no reason to address the remainder of your post because it doesn't really address anything I said nor am I disagreeing with it. Perhaps when you witness hunt groups dropping like flies from Angada's cleaves because that "other" tank who needs to prove their e-peen by hogging the Ace refuses to turn him around, you may understand where I'm coming from.

Cheers!

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This just asks the 'so what?' question. So youre fighting some scrubby hunt with 50 other people. Every tank is spamming enmity for points. One of them manages to grab more enmity than you. 'So what?'. My point is hunts are both an incredibly small part of the game and one of the least important to consider job balance on. Whm also gets mad cray points because of medica 2 and C3 spam on a party. That doesnt mean we need to nerf C3 or buff sch to maintain hunt balance.

Hunts are one of the poorest litmus tests to hinge "saying SE really, really needs to playtest the three tank classes to gain empirical data on how much enmity each job actually generates in practice, and if the results are in accordance with the "real-world" results the devs had intended, and then find fair and equitable ways to rectify that without "robbing Peter to pay Paul," as it were, so that players don't feel like their favorite jobs are being "attacked."

Hunts and enmity shouldnt even be on the to-do list for playtest on tank job enmity any more than whm should be judged based on hunt performance. Hunts are a completely different oddball minigame where the goal has nothing to do with playing intellgently or well. Its an enmity spam fest unattached to anything else in the game.

Now Iz, I know it's difficult for you to comprehend that there's a world outside of the subset of a subset that is the Savage tryhard community, but believe it or not, those other 95% of players are the reason why SE even bothers to create the only content that's "relevant" to them. So, much to your chagrin, my points hold as much weight at yours if not more so, because I represent a part of the community that doesn't see everything outside of Savage as nothing more than filler or a stepping stone.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that I fail to see why a tiny minority of the playerbase should pontificate what's "best" for the rest of us. I think we're done here.

Also, I'll reiterate my point: SE should check the enmity algorithms for all three tank jobs. They probably won't find anything they take issue with, but hey. Nothing lost by asking.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

Now Iz, I know it's difficult for you to comprehend that there's a world outside of the subset of a subset that is the Savage tryhard community, but believe it or not, those other 95% of players are the reason why SE even bothers to create the only content that's "relevant" to them. So, much to your chagrin, my points hold as much weight at yours if not more so, because I represent a part of the community that doesn't see everything outside of Savage as nothing more than filler or a stepping stone.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that I fail to see why a tiny minority of the playerbase should pontificate what's "best" for the rest of us. I think we're done here.

Also, I'll reiterate my point: SE should check the enmity algorithms for all three tank jobs. They probably won't find anything they take issue with, but hey. Nothing lost by asking.

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You fail to realize that loosing threat on a hunt zerg does not actually affect you in any tangible way besides "Darn it! I want to make more enmity!". You dont loose points. You dont loose anything. Heck, we dont even hunt the way they were intended to be hunted. Basing balance around an activity with no winners or loosers at the expense of other content which does is a poor method. No one is 'excluding' Drk from their hunt parties because of the War meta. If a job is notably underpowered in content with strict win conditions, those players are now going to suffer stigmatism from the community.

Hunts dont have any weight in the world. I never said raids are all that matters. There is lots of content that matters when it comes to tank performance. Nearly everything in the game is relevant when it comes to balance. I remember being excluded from dungeons in 2.0 on war in favor of plds as war couldnt mass pull. I remember plds being excluded later because flash did no damage in dungeons. Dungeons matter. Raids matter. 24 mans matter. Extremes matter. PVP (in its own separate world with its own balance and actions) matters. Leveling experience and balance pre 70 matters. Hunts, dont matter (for balance).

Hunts are literally the lowest priority of content to worry about balance on. That is not to say that hunts arent useful/fun/valuable content or that players that hunt dont matter. But job balance in hunts doesnt. There is no notable loss/punishment/exclusion/stigma/negative side effects of job imbalance in hunts. There are consequences to poor balance in virtually any other aspect of the game. All tanks are capable of adequately tanking any hunt defensively and can generate more enmity than any non-tank, and have enough enmity to cap points in large groups exceedingly effectivly. The fact that X tank can do it 1 gcd faster is utterly irrelevant.

And, as expected, you totally miss the point. I'm not surprised.

Seriously, dude. Let it go. You stopped being on-topic about two posts ago. And I, for one, don't want to see a thread get locked because of it.

such a heated debate for this, its a Qol nerf, even if don't solve bad players staying on tank stance in OT spot its give them less excuses to use the agro combo outside of MT, WAR have the highest emity generation, nerf 10-20 on buther don't affect the job in anything and can improve the learning curve.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

So I was just in a run with a WAR OT and he was catching up on enmity like crazy, I could barely keep hate off him, thought he must be doing crazy high damage or something.

But I started watching him and noticed, he was using butcher's block as OT.... I told him to stop and he complained that it's his highest potency combo, at which point naturally the party jumped on him telling him to use storm's path.

But it's stupid for BB to be WARs highest potency combo in the first place. It just confuses WARs into thinking it's their dps combo (like the above), when it's not, they should never be using it any more than DRK or even PLD.

So please SE, lower BB potency and raise the enmity modifier so the enmity generation is the same but the damage is the weakest of the combos, in line with the other tanks. Stop the madness.

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So because someone else is bad at playing WAR - and by virtue of that person playing badly, you had a poor experience in a single fight - means that the job itself needs to be nerfed, to the detriment of the broader player base?

You don't get outdoors much, do you?

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Originally Posted by ed3891

So because someone else is bad at playing WAR - and by virtue of that person playing badly, you had a poor experience in a single fight - means that the job itself needs to be nerfed, to the detriment of the broader player base?

You don't get outdoors much, do you?

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You don't think much do you?

If it was one person in a single fight I wouldn't be complaining. I've come across this more often than I should in content as far into the game as alphascape savage.

People are playing the job badly because the descriptions on the abilities are misleading. People see butcher's block as the highest potency combo so they think it's the strongest. If people don't care to crunch the numbers beyond adding up potencies and aren't even considering the beast gauge it's no surprise some of them get tricked into thinking it's a damage combo. As has been said it's a QoL change, if BB was equal potency to the other 2 combos then people would see it's a choice between enmity, gauge and debuff and it would become clear cut which combo to use.

Also, it wouldn't be to the detriment of the broader playerbase, because it is an ENMITY COMBO, it is not used for damage, it doesn't need the damage, the broader playerbase doesn't even use BB outside of pulling the boss and it helps those players If other warriors aren't using BB as an OT because they misunderstood the skill.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

If it was one person in a single fight I wouldn't be complaining. I've come across this more often than I should in content as far into the game as alphascape savage.

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I don't see the need for changing anything. If they'd actually read the whole tooltip they'd probably realize what they should be doing. If they're all the way to Alphascape Savage without even figuring that out, I highly doubt changing the potency is going to accomplish much.

As far as hunts go, I could see multiple tanks accidentally having tank stance up and fighting each other for aggro, considering there's usually more players fighting that one mob than the game can even render. I also doubt someone's going to click on every single other tank just to see if one is already in tank stance. Its not like it matters much since those mobs die so fast anyway.

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Originally Posted by Driskus

I don't see the need for changing anything. If they'd actually read the whole tooltip they'd probably realize what they should be doing. If they're all the way to Alphascape Savage without even figuring that out, I highly doubt changing the potency is going to accomplish much.

As far as hunts go, I could see multiple tanks accidentally having tank stance up and fighting each other for aggro, considering there's usually more players fighting that one mob than the game can even render. I also doubt someone's going to click on every single other tank just to see if one is already in tank stance. Its not like it matters much since those mobs die so fast anyway.

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butcher's block spam has been a problem since heavensward i really see this kind of WARs pretty ofthen this last 3 years just bcs ppl read the tooltip and fail to understand more gauge means more fell cleaves with are more dps that spaming butcher's block, and the combo was a direct dps gain on heavens so im not surprise this ppl drag this belief from that, nerfing butcher will remove enterily this belief and prevent a lot of missunderstand of what to do with the most easy job of the game.

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Originally Posted by ed3891

, to the detriment of the broader player base?

You don't get outdoors much, do you?

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Bruh, what detriment? Literally NOTHING is adversely impacted by nerfing BB. If anything, they can completely disallow it outside of Defiance and it'll fix everything except leveling dungeons, but those need an overhaul anyway. There is nothing to lose from such a change and everything to gain.

So what if newcomers need some hand holding? The game needs a proper advanced tutorial anyway

You can't patch away stupid. Even if this combo, that should not be nerfed, was nerfed into the ground those same players would still spam it screaming in their minds "Ima doing GREAEAT!!! Ima war nimbar owne!!!1
If you tied the combo to tank stance those same players would stay in tank stance so that they could go on spamming it.
The only thing a nerf would do is punish those of us who only use it when we have to, it would force us to use it more and in so doing be a dps nerf to the entire class.
Like I said, you can't patch away stupid. If they this far into the expansion still does not understand that BB is a dps loss then they will never understand it no matter what, heck I bet you could pay someone to slap them in the face every time they did this and they would still never learn. Nerfing BB will fix nothing.

just want to throw it in here..., SE should make more content like hunts .. or just more A and S ranks... (the areas and most fates are not used enough .., but hunts are universal and fun.., could use more such content in the areas)

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

So I was just in a run with a WAR OT and he was catching up on enmity like crazy, I could barely keep hate off him, thought he must be doing crazy high damage or something.

But I started watching him and noticed, he was using butcher's block as OT.... I told him to stop and he complained that it's his highest potency combo, at which point naturally the party jumped on him telling him to use storm's path.

But it's stupid for BB to be WARs highest potency combo in the first place. It just confuses WARs into thinking it's their dps combo (like the above), when it's not, they should never be using it any more than DRK or even PLD.

So please SE, lower BB potency and raise the enmity modifier so the enmity generation is the same but the damage is the weakest of the combos, in line with the other tanks. Stop the madness.

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What was the content? In ARR content, spamming BB out of Defiance might be better than doing Path in Defiance.

Edit: nevermind, didn't see it was not a new thread and this was answered down the line.

Also, this is why FFXIV either needs some ingame way to rate a player's performance (and if the devs don't trust the oh so wonderful community not to turn toxic, it can be visible only to the player himself). Some advanced job and role tutorials at levels 50 and 70 would go a long way to curing the problem of level 70 players not knowing the most basic things about their jobs because getting to 70 did not teach them anything.

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Originally Posted by Sunspawn

Some advanced job and role tutorials at levels 50 and 70 would go a long way to curing the problem of level 70 players not knowing the most basic things about their jobs because getting to 70 did not teach them anything.

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Yes, and not just for the fact of not learning along the way, but also because some jobs are radically altered by getting their capstone skill (as poor as I am on my DRG alt, I can safely claim that the case there, where you've suddenly got Jumps doing more than just oGCD damage.)

WAR's enmity generation does seem bit a lopsided between them having an OGCD high enmity move, the highest enmity AoE spam, and a DPS/defensive cooldown that while not available as often as the options other tanks have, gives them MUCH higher burst enmity then the other two.

This is mostly annoying when it comes to aggro wars at hunts, since as much as I like playing DRK it gets frustrating when less geared WARs keep ripping aggro off me and making the hunt kill people because of bad positional awareness.