FFXIV: Endgame as it is now and what it once was, how do you feel?

So not to start out by spouting pointless generalities, please make note this is solely based on my opinions and my experiences. This has only affected me and my friends as far as my specific points I'll bring up. But please speak about your experiences and how they may relate or differ to what has happened with me in the past few years. TLDR down below.

Back in 2.0 when raiding in this game was new. Most people were still trying to get their toes wet on what it was all about. Most people were gated behind the primal HM fights for most of their early careers. And to those who could easily triumph over them moved on to the next level of difficulty, Binding Coils of Bahamut.

Farming up Titan weapons, tomes, etc. to prepare myself to tackle on Coils. Finding PuGs was rather easy in a sense back then. So many people were so willing to try and fail over and over seemingly to just get inside the final tier of content. I actually got my first T1 Coils clear with a PuG on SCH (my 2ndary job at the time) and we went in blind and cleared it relatively easy.

I eventually made my way into T2 and found it a different kind of beast. But still fun and interesting I didn't clear it till I found my new FC and with that a static!

Having the privilege to have a static was amazing at the time! You always had set to semi- set times which were always nice. You always had fun and a sense of accomplishment when clearing things together as a group. You never felt held back or weighed down because it was just playing the game with your friends. Even PuGs back then felt a very similar feeling though, people were just so easily ready to keep trying to push through to the next piece of content.

I never got to clear Final Coils with my static as my entire FC/Static left XIV right after we beat T11. So T12 and T13 remained undefeated for me until 3.0.

Heavensward shows up and boy oh boy... did raiding and endgame change drastically! Sure we still kept our Ex primals... but now we had "story" normal endgame raid and savage endgame raid, the great Alexander.

This tier of raids saw many statics and groups simply fall a part. Be it hardcore or midcores (in skill, not times being able to play) and casuals barely even attempted or could get through this set of raids.

Many people seemed to have clamored for this change to happen though. As the story of Binding Coils of Bahamut was locked behind the 1 tier of raids back in 2.XX. So with the story completed gutted out of the now "Savage" raid, most people didn't feel the need to even attempt it anymore if story was their aim.

At the start of 3.0 I was still "hopeful" that my FC would return... and by the time I got the expansion finished and made it to Bismarck/Ravana Ex, I knew it was time to find a new FC and hopefully a static!

Case in point I find my new home (my current FC to this day) and the prospect of a new static as well! Seeing as Alexander was a different beast from Coils period... we unfortunately never made it far into Gordias. Seeing only consistent clears and the final tier of mobs in A2S was as far as we got. Granted we were not a full static and had to PuG 1 tank, and 2 DPS often. Ex Primals were hit or miss, but we eventually triumphed over most. Took a lot longer to fully farm some like Nidhogg. But we eventually came through.

I'm sure you're thinking (why the blog post?) I probably got a bit heavy winded but my point is coming up now. So after going through all of this, still attempting Alexander as it came out and not really finding a nice spot until Creator, I started to notice a certain thing pop up when I would go with my static or even PuGs to Primals or Savage. And no it wasn't parsers, my old static in 2.XX used those back in the day. No... it was FFLogs. A website dedicated to keeping up with said parses in a database and able to compare others parses around the world.

It started out rather heavy handed as the DPS checks and crazed mechanics in Alexander were very high and stressful for anyone not attempting world first races or even in the higher percentile of hardcore players. But as Creator came, it wasn't nearly as heavy handed with constantly checking others on this website.

4.0 finally makes its way into existence and we get the Omega raids. With everything we had seen with Alexander though, people were not going to take many chances. Keeping my static for the most part through at least Deltascape and clearing all the way through O3S. It was rather rough, not so much the fights, they seemed decently tuned. But finding others with our willing mindsets and play-styles seemed almost impossible. So many people then and now were extremely obsessed with their FFLogs scores. The journey and the fights along the way didn't mean much anymore. It was all about coming on top of PvE content in a race against your "opponent". No... not the raid bosses, but other people's parses. Endgame had shifted drastically in the years from 3.XX-4.0 and remained as such in the oncoming content of 4.XX.

Primals weren't as heavily affected by this, but it can still be seen from time to time.

I have never had a personal problem with parsing or parsers period. I find them helpful tools that can help pinpoint your mistakes and work on them when you're in a very healthy and friendly raid group environment.

I feel like the problem, again for me personally, is now FFLogs as a whole. People are trying to make PvE content into a competition. Instead of simply trying PvP where the whole premise is to compete against each other, the players have taken it into their own hands to do that with an outside source using said means.

And there are those that will harass you for simply not playing to "their" standards or the "new" standards that were put into place during the awkward struggles of Alexander Savage. Now I'm sure this just seems like a bad player spouting on about how bad he is and wishes he could continue to just play in the "old days". Who knows maybe this is and maybe I am bad. I don't have many uploads on said site for people to check out, I play on PS4 and am at the mercy of others for that. But I'm sure there are those who will do their "research" just to sniff me out.

I have never claimed in this post nor will I ever claim to be the "best". I only try to be my best when I'm in a fun and friendly environment. I feel many PuGs I deal with now days... are no such place. Even finding a static or trying to start your own is just as much of a challenge if not worse. People have bookmarked expectations of you and if you don't fit into that one size fits some mold, you aren't worth their time.

Now don't think either I advocate sloppy or bad play. You shouldn't have to deal with others who refuse to improve or hold your group back from progressing through the content.

I suppose my point being, is from 2.XX and onward endgame has drastically changed, and I definitely feel it's been for the worst. People try to put into stock what the rest of the world is doing rather then trying to focus on their progress and their team mates. I still personally think it was a mistake splitting our one 8man raid into two tiers. I always felt and still feel that Coils as a whole was the perfect raid tier and setting. Yes, even if it makes me sound elitist, I feel story mode should have never happened in 8man raiding. I feel it took out the want for most people to try and progress not only for gear, but for story as well.

Now days people only progress through the hardest 8man raids (even Ultimates) simply to have the highest scores. As many go on here and other places, you don't need the top tier raiding gear if you aren't raiding in those raids yourself. So they don't seem to be doing it for the gear since a lot of higher hardcore players can and will clear with crafted stuff and appropriate melds. So it seems that people try to go forth and simply beat the next groups "score".

Alexander has and will always remain to me personally as a fail. I felt Omega might have had some redeeming qualities, but because of my own personal experiences with this expansions raid tier, it fell flat for me and hard.

Again I really don't claim to be some expert on this sort of stuff. I just feel that the direction the game has went in since 3.XX has failed to meet some of my own personal expectations and continues to do so while allowing certain things to go unnoticed by the devs and maybe even Yoshi himself. I personally hope the status quo eventually gets shaken up so much by 5.0 that we finally see a hard reset as the raiding continues on in this game. I personally miss the much more story driven as well as outlook of the earlier days of raiding. I know some of it was based on everything still being new and I know that part can and will NEVER be recaptured and I don't expect it too.

Anyway if you stuck with me through all of this LONG read, what are your thoughts? Think I'm some bumbling fool who has NO idea what he's talking about? (I honestly just might be lol) or have you had similar or the same type of experiences?

TL : DR - Endgame has changed drastically from 2.XX all the way to 4.4. I personally think it's the use of FFLogs and peoples desire to compete with each other in PvE content rather then PvP content. Do you agree? Disagree?

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

TL : DR - Endgame has changed drastically from 2.XX all the way to 4.4. I personally think it's the use of FFLogs and peoples desire to compete with each other in PvE content rather then PvP content. Do you agree? Disagree?

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Back in 2.xx, there were two major incentives to run Coil, story and gear. The third one was competition but it really felt like a little niche.
When HW was released, story was stripped away from Alexander and the first level cap killed a lot of gear incentive since you could literally buy gear on par with what Second Coil dropped.

So, I guess lots of raiders simply turned toward the last known incentive and joined the competitive aspect of raiding, while some who were interested in the story skipped Savage completely.

That good sir is one long post & thou I have never joined said "Endgame" I have seen a fraction of this "Numbers War" u discribe bleed over into 4-man dungeons more regularly since 3.0 (use to be very rare at 3.0 start & became common by 3.5, was high during A5-8 Savalge release time but I hear that version was overtuned & was breaking ppl). I do however like to state that at one point way back in 2.0 I wanted to try Coil, when T5 was the highest, but my servers "Endgamers" during my login times were very... escentric about ppl "Preforming to a standard" if I wanna be nice about it. A more blunt version is: The espectations thrown about & all the "drama" caused by all the arguing made me avoid that stuff so much I have yet to beat Coil, well I have unsynced T5 but thats it, let alone give the newer version "Savage" an honest chance

I can't say if ur right due to having no "real" experiance in the "area" u discribe but thats what I have noticed about said "area", srry if this reply is unhelpful.

I didn't do endgame until SB really. FF XIV wasn't my 'main' mmo until late HW, about 3.4 or 3.5 and I didn't do any of the alliance or alex raids until 3.5 where I basically just said 'newbie bous' in party finder and got carried through the first 11 fights, though I did get a good grasp on a12 as I was farming crystaloids for weapon upgrade. I will say that Alex did have story. The difference was it was a new story while Coil's story was wrapping up loose ends from 1.0.

So I can only really speak for SB's endgame. And even then I haven't stepped into savage. In part because I don't want to schedule time for a static and in part I have a bit of anxiety about messing up while learning new fights around strangers. So I can only really comment on normal mode raids.

And I have mixed feelings there. Omega doesn't feel like a 'raid' to me. It's really just three sets of four Trials but with a raid loot structure. There's no sense that I'm going anywhere. No sense of exploration, no trash to give a sense of pacing, it's just four bosses in boxes, albeit pretty boxes. I hope that 5.0's raid goes back to a Coil/Alex model where it's not always just a boss fight.

As far as story goes, it really depends. If Alex had been savage mode only I wouldn't have been upset about that, because the Alex story doesn't have anything to do with the main story. Coil and Omega are cleaning up lingering story threads that, unless you do progressive raiding, you won't get to see resolved. And so I don't feel like that story should be locked behind difficult content when the main story itself is pretty casual and accessable. The Ivalice, sky pirate and crystal tower stories for example I think are standalone enough that I wouldn't mind if they had been savage only stories. Omega and Bahamut though had too much setup in the main story to only pay off in high end content IMO.

There are still plenty of rewards for raiding. You get unique mounts, you get the best gear. I wouldn't mind story locked behind it if it was a side story that had nothing to do with the main plot, but I am against setting up Omega and Bahamut int he main story but not paying them off unless you do the difficult content. If the raid stories are going to leave holes in the msq then I feel story mode should exist in raids.

My main issue with normal mode raids is the loot structure. In theory I like it, but it can be very frustrating. For example this last week, I got my loot from O12 pretty quick but I had to run O11 five or six times, which is frustrating. On one hand, FF XIV doesn't have enough raid content to have the WoW structure of 'run it once per difficulty and you're done.' On the other hand when you get bad rng, it sucks when it can take several runs at the same boss to get your reward. I think SE needs to find some kind of middle ground but I don't know what form that could take.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I didn't do endgame until SB really. FF XIV wasn't my 'main' mmo until late HW, about 3.4 or 3.5 and I didn't do any of the alliance or alex raids until 3.5 where I basically just said 'newbie bous' in party finder and got carried through the first 11 fights, though I did get a good grasp on a12 as I was farming crystaloids for weapon upgrade. I will say that Alex did have story. The difference was it was a new story while Coil's story was wrapping up loose ends from 1.0.

There are still plenty of rewards for raiding. You get unique mounts, you get the best gear. I wouldn't mind story locked behind it if it was a side story that had nothing to do with the main plot, but I am against setting up Omega and Bahamut int he main story but not paying them off unless you do the difficult content. If the raid stories are going to leave holes in the msq then I feel story mode should exist in raids.

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Well this isn't really about the story raids though, in the sense of "how are they, their difficulty, or their structure." Sure speak out of the absence of a story mode, but we have it right now so that isn't even an issue for you.

This insight is in endgame raiding in the highest tier i.e. Coils(since it was the only tier) and ofc Savage. I personally have 0 experience with Ultimate though, I just mentioned it because it exists.

Maybe you didn't read some of my finer points, but for some of us that isn't what we wanted out of raiding regardless. Mounts and gear is nice, but wasn't the goal for some as the goal has shifted from then till now. I personally couldn't care less about the mounts. I was mostly in it for gear, but always in it for the story.

Yes there are some nice nuances and extra dialog from doing Coils. But Alexander and Omega, as I'm aware, have nothing to do with the actual MSQ. You really don't need them in order to understand ANY thing going on inside the MSQ. So that point is kinda moot. I've yet to see any holes from a lack of completing Alexander or Omega in the MSQ. So I'm not sure where you got that from.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Well this isn't really about the story raids though, in the sense of "how are they, their difficulty, or their structure." Sure speak out of the absence of a story mode, but we have it right now so that isn't even an issue for you.

This insight is in endgame raiding in the highest tier i.e. Coils(since it was the only tier) and ofc Savage. I personally have 0 experience with Ultimate though, I just mentioned it because it exists.

Maybe you didn't read some of my finer points, but for some of us that isn't what we wanted out of raiding regardless. Mounts and gear is nice, but wasn't the goal for some as the goal has shifted from then till now. I personally couldn't care less about the mounts. I was mostly in it for gear, but always in it for the story.

Yes there are some nice nuances and extra dialog from doing Coils. But Alexander and Omega, as I'm aware, have nothing to do with the actual MSQ. You really don't need them in order to understand ANY thing going on inside the MSQ. So that point is kinda moot. I've yet to see any holes from a lack of completing Alexander or Omega in the MSQ. So I'm not sure where you got that from.

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With Omega for example, Omega is set up in the MSQ. All the way back in ARR, concern over Omega was raised in the patch quests. Then it kind of dropped off the radar, but was brought back in late HW. Deciding to risk activating it to deal with the soon to be born Shinryu was a big story decision, and then there was the big spactacle fight over Gyr Abania.

To just drop the Omega story there for casual players would be a misstep IMO. It's not like Omega was just offhandedly mentioned a couple times, it was an important part of the story leading into HW. To then not resolve that story outside of high end content would, IMO, be a misstep.

To use an example from WoW, I was fine with the Algalon story in Ulduar. Only by doing the 'hard modes' of the fights could you unlock and advance the story there. The setup and payoff are all within that high end content. Casual players werne't left hanging by plot threads dangled in front of them but then held out of reach. Imagine if Omega was savage only, and you were a casual player who played through 2.55 and saw Omega and Shinryu battle and then just...never saw anything from Omega again. Would that not be jarring and weird?

Really though, I think the current model is better than savage only raids. It opens up raiding to a wider audience, while the best rewards are reserved for people who do the difficult content. I don't see why the story also needs to be an exclusive reward that only high end raiders get too, especially if the story is set up in the msq.

IMO, savage raids should have a bit more going for them than they do now. For example, assuming it's feasible with FF XIV's budget, I'd like to see Savage get its own distinct gear sets, not just dyable versions of the normal mode raid gear. Maybe some titles etc, not sure if they already have titles or not. But story? I don't really have a problem with story mode in general. Story mode gives some content for casuals while the best rewards are for savage players. I could deal with no casual story mode if stories were self contained, but again I don't consider the Omega story self contained enough.

sorry for my english

i totally agree with you. Raiding in ARR times was better because only the progression was important

In my opinion FF logs have destroy the game ( it s my opinion)

Before FF logs, people only wanted raiding to destoy their boss, now people only want to destroy their dic...

I don't really bother with endgame that much anymore. It just doesn't feel worthwhile when everything is so temporary and obsolete 10 minutes after you get it. Even the content itself doesn't last... And generally what's the point?

In ARR I did coil for the story. My friends and I cleared the whole of final coil in a single evening gripped by it's story. And wondering what would transpire.

Alexander was ok some fun fights but never really bothered with the savage modes be ause again what a the point. And omega is the exact same thing.

There's games out there where I literally invest buclet loads of time and effort into getting like 1 single stat point or something because I feel that it will have lasting benefits to my character and game... But xiv just sod it. No point investing in item a when I can get item b for free next month and it's better anyway....

As such I typically spend most of my time doing whatever friends wanna do.

The other issue is he overall lack of content which generally means players spam the same thing over and over and get sick of it. Like farming 64 rath wins in 3 days of the content going live. I mean competitively I can understand that wanting mount first sorta thing. But a lot of people end up burning it because it's literally the only thing to do.

It's kinda the same with 24 man raids. Where players will literally grind the same raid all week trying to get a drop. But hey there's nothing else to do that patch... It's no wonder players burn themselves out on content because there's no variety in stuff to do.

This game really needs some longevity and to stop being so temporary. I know people will spout up and say if that happens itll be a full tine job but no it really won't. Ffxi had massive longevity and a lot of the time I only played that 2 evenings a week and did all of its endgame..

I don't really mind the tiered vertical loot structure but I can definitely see why people would be tired of it. Back when I enjoyed raiding, gearing up wasn't main draw for me. It was the experience. Learning the bosses with friends and overcoming them. Gearing up was a side benefit. It's not worth staying on the loot treadmill if you don't enjoy the experience itself.

I can see why people would prefer horizontal progression, though it's something I have a hard time wrapping my head around having not played a game centered around it. For me, I like gearing up, and so getting a pair of boots that I'll use for two years just doesn't interest me personally.

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Originally Posted by Coupain

sorry for my english

i totally agree with you. Raiding in ARR times was better because only the progression was important

In my opinion FF logs have destroy the game ( it s my opinion)

Before FF logs, people only wanted raiding to destoy their boss, now people only want to destroy their dic...

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See, I have the precise opposite opinion. FFlogs is what makes raiding fun because I have a tangible goal to work towards each week, or however often I elect to pug. Finding new ways to maximize my damage is fun. If I delay Litany a little bit, does that pair up better with other raid buffs? If I hold LotD, will it catch BfB? Take away the analytical side of raiding and now I'm left with simply killing the same thing repeatedly with nothing to differentiate. Given there is no Ultimate this tier, I'd basically have no reason whatsoever to care about Savage without FFlogs, barring the initial rush of clearing fresh content a few times.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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I personally don't have an issue with our current vertical progression right now. I've only played a few games and only for a short amount of time that even had it in this same vein. But this was the first time I really experienced it full force. So it's not something I was even used to and I actually welcomed against the slog that was FFXI's horizontal progression.

Now I love many things in FFXI, but leveling and the horrific RNG that gated items from the horizontal progression were two I did not enjoy. I personally never found it fun or invigorating to spend literal years chipping away at a small chance to FINALLY obtain just a side grade or an upgrade that was barely noticeable. And to even the full fledged upgrades half the time when you finally obtained it it felt like such a hollow victory at times.

Haven't touched endgame raiding since my old static FC feel apart back at T9. Watching the occasional vid of the mechanics introduced in the Omega series does not exactly make me want to think about rejoining the fray. That stuff is nuts. I'm missing out on a few mounts/minions, and 5 ilvls on weapon, but I can live with that.

I understand your point...but I personally think fflogs is the best thing that happened to the ffxiv world after the Calamity.
At least it gives me something to work for in non-trivial content.

Anyway, fflogs' existence is a direct consequence of SE stubborness on refusing to provide the players with a built-in dps meter despite the fact that any kind of relevant content completely revolves around dps. Players will always find a way to analyze the data inside a parametric game, and the more the game is based on meeting some parametric requirement, the more sophisticated third party analysis tools will become. It's no surprise that fflogs became widespread after gordias.

My bar for judging the endgame is how fun the content is. The current raids are meeting my expectations, so I'm satisfied. Ideally, I think fun is the only incentive content needs. If there is one issue that I have it's that FF14 combat in general is a memorization game which kind of degrades replayability. However the number of classes available in the game and a few of the minor customization options offsets this a bit.

I disagree with the idea that FFlogs has done any damage to raiding. In fact, I doubt the site matters in the grand scheme of things. There is a very big discrepancy between some of the complaints I see from the community and what I experience in game. That doesn't mean that those complaints aren't justified, but I think each person's perspective plays a role in how large they perceive the issues to be. Logs are not something I typically see mentioned (but no surprise there when they are technically illegal), and on those occasions where they are brought up even gray parsers aren't kicked or shamed on sight. I've been in raids where someone with a parser used it to inform the group of a lack of DPS, which lead to DPS increasing in subsequent pulls. There is absolutely a gap in skill between players in this game, but it doesn't immediately lead to fighting and hostility. Many patient experienced raiders can be found and there are also a good number of new players willing and eager to learn. Not everyone falls into those categories but the players who do aren't some kind of one in a million rarity.

I'd have to disagree with the stance on fflogs. There are plenty of people using it for the wrong reasons, sure, but I wholly disagree that it negativity affected raiding like that. Especially now with that analysis site that reads your log and gives you general job pointers on what you can be doing better.

When I pull 5.3k on a O9S clear as a ninja and I can look at my log, that's a big problem, because I'm letting my whole static down because my dps is crap. Fflogs gives me the information I need to know so I can study up and figure out what I'm messing up on. So it's not so much a competition to my eyes as it's a red flag that my 5.3k dps doesn't cut it, and my static ends up suffering because I'm not carrying my weight. I need to use fflogs to figure out where my timing is off, my trick attack usage, etc.

Some people aren't really seeing some of the things I'm saying, but I digress on that part.

On the part that people are, and are disagreeing with me on my views. I understand you all have your opinions and views. But you most likely all have had mostly if not anything but positive outcomes with the people you run into or static with. Again there isn't anything wrong with wanting to always do better. But I personally feel expecting everyone to be at the 100% top percentile and the "best" or even close to it as possible is just an extremely unrealistic ideal.

Everyone out there playing this game will never play the same exact way. Everyone will always have some varying degrees of play-styles and especially strategies that will most likely show varying skills and numbers in the long run. No two people play exactly the same. I'm not saying everyone expects this because I know that isn't true. But it's more expected now days and widely excepted practice then during 2.XX raiding.

I was among those that advocated for story mode raids back during ARR. I managed to clear up to t9 in Coil with pugs before getting stuck and frustrated. I never had any interest in raiding itself, I just tried to push myself through for the story occasionally accompanied by a friend or two that was interested.

When HW launched with a story mode for Alexander it was a dream come true for me since I knew I'd never have to worry about clearing a real raid again. I did do some A1S for light farming near the end of HW and O1S in SB since the forums said it was too easy to be called Savage but for the most part my Savage raiding experience has been limited to unsync.

So I guess I can't really comment on if the endgame scene is better or worse now since I never really liked it to begin with. I will say that the current model most likely attracts more people with a competitive nature since there isn't much of a reason to raid outside of challenging yourself anymore.
FFlogs has increased in prominence over the years. I don't see parsing come up often in the segments of the game that I frequent though.

Now to be fair my friends and I did finish Coil unsynced during HW so it's not like we missed out on the story forever. But I much prefer experiencing it while it's new with the story mode raids and I find them enjoyable content in and of themselves.

FFLogs will have nothing to do with you if you join a static or raid group that chooses to ignore them. Nobody will be pointing at numbers, and you can raid the way you want. There's no official competition boards, and you shouldn't care if other people talk about it if that's what they enjoy. It's not like we have a cohesive "raiding scene", so I don't really get how other people focusing on competition and efficiency should dull your enjoyment of it. I know there are plenty of folks who prefer to take a more organic approach.

I've met my fair share of people who just drop "lolz ur deeps sux" based off parsing, and yeah, those people are jerks. That's why I'm not personally a fan of parsing. The key word there is "personally". I know plenty of people who use it as a tool to encourage themselves to do better/learn from, and that's their prerogative, too. Not everybody-or even a majority-who uses parsers is doing it as a means to shame/compete.

We're playing a game, and games get competitive. People are always looking for ways to be efficient. Ignoring the fact that half of these "nostalgic old days" posts neglect to take into account that games are always going to come off as shiny and exciting when they're new and that luster is going to fade as we become accustomed to them/complete them, the idea that FFLogs/parsing is some new phenomenon is laughable. I remember raiding with a group in vanilla WoW that required everyone to have a parser and to keep their numbers above a certain %. It's been around for as long as video games were around, and improved technology only means that it's easier for folks to find and use these tools.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

FFLogs will have nothing to do with you if you join a static or raid group that chooses to ignore them.

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Yep, exactly that. Can't find a raid group that doesn't have that ignoring FFLogs mantra? Make your own. That's what I did back in Sigmascape. It was fun and casual. I haven't bothered in Alphascape though. Though a friend is still offering me a place in his static IIRC, but that involves a change of realm (everyone's on the same realm), changing what job I'm on, and not being allowed to stream it (as the people in the group aren't keen with it). So it isn't for me, so if I do go for a static, I'll just make my own again.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

I personally don't have an issue with our current vertical progression right now. I've only played a few games and only for a short amount of time that even had it in this same vein. But this was the first time I really experienced it full force. So it's not something I was even used to and I actually welcomed against the slog that was FFXI's horizontal progression.

Now I love many things in FFXI, but leveling and the horrific RNG that gated items from the horizontal progression were two I did not enjoy. I personally never found it fun or invigorating to spend literal years chipping away at a small chance to FINALLY obtain just a side grade or an upgrade that was barely noticeable. And to even the full fledged upgrades half the time when you finally obtained it it felt like such a hollow victory at times.

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Interesting, as someone who has played mainly games with vertical progression I have to say that I feel the opposite. In this game upgrades come so easily with so little effort and are only stat increases. TBH i wouldn't even notice the upgrades if ACT didn't tell me i was being a good boy. Not to mention the process of gearing is just awfully boring, but I feel that stems from issues in other parts of the game or just base game design flubs. I never feel like woooo I'm BiS, it's more like I'm finally BiS ugh.

FFlogs can be a useful tool for self improvement but the fact is people use it to point at other peoples numbers and jump to conclusions and then go and insult those players or view them as inferior.

As someone who does do savage (although still getting into it) I'm perfectly happy with dyeable versions of normal raid gear and would be happier still if the normal was dyeable too and the stats were the only thing making the savage gear better. Since gear affects appearance and is used for glamours in this game, the visual customization should not be locked behind savage difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

FFlogs can be a useful tool for self improvement but the fact is people use it to point at other peoples numbers and jump to conclusions and then go and insult those players or view them as inferior.

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Conversely, looking up a paladin and see they cleared Rabinastre only one time with nothing more than the Halone combo tells me they really are an inferior paladin, have no business running any content beyond Brayflox' Longstop, and they have no ground to stand on for an objection.

It is a beautiful ray of sunlight, forcing players into the truth of what they are (or in the case of the paladin, aren't) doing.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Conversely, looking up a paladin and seeing they ran Rabinastre with nothing more than the Halone combo tells me they really are an inferior paladin, have no business running any content beyond Brayflox' Longstop, and they have no ground to stand on for an objection.

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Does PLD get more than one combo after brayflox? Because I'm leveling DRK and a level away from 50 but don't see much added for the combo. Granted DRK might get more on later levels. Also does DRK get screwed on range enmity attack for pulling?

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

Does PLD get more than one combo after brayflox? Because I'm leveling DRK and a level away from 50 but don't see much added for the combo. Granted DRK might get more on later levels. Also does DRK get screwed on range enmity attack for pulling?

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Yes. That's why I say someone tanking a 70 24-man as if they're in Brayflox is wrong, deeply inconsiderate, and should be exposed.

And when I say only, I mean only. They weren't using reduction cooldowns either.

This is akin to a DRK staying in grit and only spamming the power slash combo.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

Does PLD get more than one combo after brayflox? Because I'm leveling DRK and a level away from 50 but don't see much added for the combo. Granted DRK might get more on later levels. Also does DRK get screwed on range enmity attack for pulling?

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PLD doesn't get another combo until Goring blade at 54 so it's Rage of Halone until Sohm Al.

As someone who's raided since T1, I share a lot of the same thoughts as you do, OP, but I also have a different perspective. And I'm going to use this comment to express how I feel the raiding scene has changed, and WHY - particularly because of HOW the community uses FFLogs.

I think a lot of us from the "old days" look fondly on how the raiding community used to be and forget its glaring flaws. FFLogs, on the face of it, is used by the community now as a sort of gate keeping tool. Where someone can judge your entire existence in a few minutes of looking at SELECTIVELY (this is important) uploaded parses. And it feels unfair at times, as your percentiles are weighted against people with better gear / better party compositions / and the fact that some people at the top (most, lets be honest) curate their logs to represent their best performance, not their average performance. I know this from first hand experience being in several statics since FFLogs came out who argue over what should be uploaded vs uploading everything (as most casual raiders do). I liken this to the sort of online voyeur culture that sites like Instagram promote. Depict an enviable life/performance, while intentionally leaving out the bad parts. And in that way, FFLogs is definitely abused by the community and less cunning people are lead to assess their self worth against a culture that has been disingenuous in theirs. In that way, I think FFLogs is destructive and ultimately harmful to the community.

BUT let's not forget that it was similar in ARR and HW, which I think at times were even *more* restrictive than the system we currently have. FFLogs or not. Sure, we didn't have parse runs to increase our own market value, but word of mouth could make or break your reputation, and in the end - keep you from joining a group. And your value was essentially assessed by others' expectations, which were not consistent. I recall many instances where someone's worth was judged by the type of FC they were in, or when they cleared a certain fight, despite our personal limitations. FFLogs bypasses all of this and allows you to present yourself as valuable, disregarding the silly metrics people used to use. Personal bias does not hold up to MATH. In that way, FFLogs is freeing, and gives people better opportunities.

The issue is not FFLogs' pervasive influence in raiding culture, its the fact that people abuse it. Because our values have shifted.

Is it silly that "mid core" groups pulling decent, or "good" numbers at best have the same expectations as world first raiders? Yes, absolutely. But that serves the person seeking a static just as well. If I see a group who *needs* a Ninja, yet I can see that the other members in the group aren't playing their own jobs optimally, I have to ask myself why exactly they think they need Trick Attack. And the most common reason is "To close the DPS window on damage we *should* be able to output ourselves but can't/won't". In that case, the group mindset is regressive and their priorities aren't in the right place. And anyone who understands that will see that group as a "trap". From my view, there are *more* groups who's expectations work against them rather than serve them. As a wise man once said, the vast majority of players need to "get gud" before imposing their expectations on others. The popular exclusion of Samurai from groups of all tiers of skill level REALLY highlight this fact.

Playing your job to its potential is infinitely more important and IMPACTFUL than reaping the benefit of a specific comp if you aren't already doing so. And I think that FACT is completely lost on a huge portion of the player base.

But the reason for all of this? And this reflects your point about players using PVE as a PVP outlet - people want to so badly to be seen as "good", that they will imitate those better than them to their own detriment, and it because a cycle of harm. The obsession with FFLogs, to the point where it is the REASON people raid, is the reason raiding feels different, the reason raiding seemed *better* "back then". FFLogs is the greatest tool for all FFXIV players, but it is easier to use as a weapon, and people are lazy.

That is never going to change by the way. So the answer to this, or to recapturing the "magic" of raiding is to lower your OWN expectations and dismiss this "race" that you are inherently at a disadvantage in unless you are misrepresenting yourself. That isn't to say everyone at the top is doing that, they aren't. But the culture is heavily influenced by lies.

As for incentives to raid, it has gotten better. Mounts are Savage exlusive, so is dyable gear. The challenge is still there, and so is the ilvl / unique weapons. Story being brought into normal mode raids is a good thing. It prevents the casual player base from pressuring the devs to nerf fights so they can experience it (was totally a thing in Coil). And I think the way the raids are set up, from a dev point of view, serves the entire player base is a good, and meaningful way.

Raiding is the most accessible, and enjoyable now as it has ever been. So in that, I have to sort of disagree with you.

TL;DR - FFlogs is good but the community abuses its usefulness to the point that the culture is inherently unfair. But still, raiding is better now than before it existed

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Conversely, looking up a paladin and seeing they ran Rabinastre with nothing more than the Halone combo tells me they really are an inferior paladin, have no business running any content beyond Brayflox' Longstop, and they have no ground to stand on for an objection.

It is a beautiful ray of sunlight, forcing players into the truth of what they are (or in the case of the paladin, aren't) doing.

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I feel that unless you're recruiting for a static of some kind, then looking up someone in fflogs before you play with them is a tad excessive.

Everyone has bad logs at some point whether it's due to lag, having a bad day, someone in the team hindering your performance or you just didn't realise at the time that you were doing something wrong. I'd hate to be judged on logs in which I had lag. They make me look awful and nothing about the logs will tell the viewer I had lag. They will just show I had poor or too little spell usage and died a lot.

Never mind how judging solely through logs can actually harm people who have improved since their last logs. If the logs aren't super recent then you can't really rule out the possibility that they have since improved. It would suck to be constantly refused based on out-dated data. Sure you could make your own logs to show your improvement...unless you're a ps4 player. Then you're stuck or have to ask someone else to log.

Also who the hell logs alliance raids? o.O People actually do that? Given how incredibly messy they can be I feel that the combat data from them can be too volatile to be worth going through.

Sounds like the problem is 2 different types of player are trying to do content together and that's not going to work out well.

If FFlogs and a focus on generating bigger numbers bother you, then find people who feel the same way you do and form your groups with them instead of trying to play with those who do use FFlogs and focus on numbers. Not everyone is in a rush to clear content or push out the biggest numbers. Some are fine progressing at a slow pace over the course of a patch cycle as they wait for the next bit of content to be released. It might take a little bit of extra effort to find those players but then it takes the more hardcore players extra effort to get their statics created as well.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I feel that unless you're recruiting for a static of some kind, then looking up someone in fflogs before you play with them is a tad excessive.

Everyone has bad logs at some point whether it's due to lag, having a bad day, someone in the team hindering your performance or you just didn't realise at the time that you were doing something wrong. I'd hate to be judged on logs in which I had lag. They make me look awful and nothing about the logs will tell the viewer I had lag. They will just show I had poor or too little spell usage and died a lot.

Never mind how judging solely through logs can actually harm people who have improved since their last logs. If the logs aren't super recent then you can't really rule out the possibility that they have since improved. It would suck to be constantly refused based on out-dated data. Sure you could make your own logs to show your improvement...unless you're a ps4 player. Then you're stuck or have to ask someone else to log.

Also who the hell logs alliance raids? o.O People actually do that? Given how incredibly messy they can be I feel that the combat data from them can be too volatile to be worth going through.

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The specific instance was someone complaining they got kicked and insulted "for no reason."

For the rest of it, I can only shrug. It is what it is, and it's plainly not going away. Any amount of rose-tinted nostalgia isn't going to change that.

They claim participation is optional, but hiding yourself there really makes it look worse than letting people see the good with the bad.

I agree 100% with you OP. FFlogs has had a very deterimental effect on the game and its community. These kids get in groups where they have their numbers padded then point fingers at people that pug the same content. Its absurd and has no place whatsoever in this game. To make matters worse they are now turning ACT into deadly boss mods. They can't even get the content down the way it was intended anymore. They need a mod to call out where to go and when. I would love to see the devs step in and stop this trend but its pretty apparent they aren't going to do anything about it.

Chiming in as a more casual player here: while I don't raid, I have noticed that PUGs are less and less pleasant these days, and people seem to be a lot quicker to anger (myself included).

While I don't have much exposure to FFLogs, it seems reasonable that it's played a role. I think that SE's bland content cycle has caused a lot of this as well, though. I don't know about everyone else, but back in 2.x, whether I was getting my feet wet with Coil or pushing through HM / EX Primals, it felt like an adventure. I wanted to push myself, because the content was new and exciting.

Nowadays? I tried the first few EX Primals of 4.x, and cleared through NM Deltascape, but I stopped a long time ago, because they no longer feel interesting to me. To the extent I run group content at all after the first week of its availability, it has a good deal in common with running errands. I don't go into Ridorana for the sake of Ridorana (like I did with Labyrinth of the Ancients); I go in because I want certain items or Tomestones. This greatly changes my personal outlook and patience when I encounter people who are messing up. In this context, they aren't fellow players seeking to conquer a new challenge - they're barriers to me getting my errands done. I get annoyed the same way I do at traffic jams.

Again, I don't know how much this all translates to higher-tier content. But it really seems to me that the utter predictability of content, the exceedingly boring itemization, has altered how I - and others - view instanced content, and not for the better.

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Originally Posted by Kirsten_Rev

Chiming in as a more casual player here: while I don't raid, I have noticed that PUGs are less and less pleasant these days, and people seem to be a lot quicker to anger (myself included).

While I don't have much exposure to FFLogs, it seems reasonable that it's played a role. I think that SE's bland content cycle has caused a lot of this as well, though. I don't know about everyone else, but back in 2.x, whether I was getting my feet wet with Coil or pushing through HM / EX Primals, it felt like an adventure. I wanted to push myself, because the content was new and exciting.

Nowadays? I tried the first few EX Primals of 4.x, and cleared through NM Deltascape, but I stopped a long time ago, because they no longer feel interesting to me. To the extent I run group content at all after the first week of its availability, it has a good deal in common with running errands. I don't go into Ridorana for the sake of Ridorana (like I did with Labyrinth of the Ancients); I go in because I want certain items or Tomestones. This greatly changes my personal outlook and patience when I encounter people who are messing up. In this context, they aren't fellow players seeking to conquer a new challenge - they're barriers to me getting my errands done. I get annoyed the same way I do at traffic jams.

Again, I don't know how much this all translates to higher-tier content. But it really seems to me that the utter predictability of content, the exceedingly boring itemization, has altered how I - and others - view instanced content, and not for the better.

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You raise a good point. At launch, the only "chore" people had was the weekly tomestone cap, running FC-mates through Titan (and laughing at them when they fall off), and perhaps leves for crafting.

From 2.1 until today, the following chores opened in addition:
Roulettes
Beastmen dailies
24-man raids for charity drops/upgrades weekly; all current raids 3/week late expansion.
Wondrous Tails
Fashion (I guess it counts?)
Normal-mode raid drops, one per floor per week for the current tier.
Hunts/Maps, upon notification.

Surely I've missed more of these "chores" but this is enough to add on to this point.

This creates an Ubisoft-like shopping list where you just tick things off for various rewards weekly/daily, and feel like you're not playing "optimally" if you don't keep up with it all. Square's also a bit guilty of turning this checklist mentality against player wellbeing to wallpaper over their unmaintained content, such as making some of the most poorly-designed content in the game take their own hour-long daily roulette that some find difficult to pass up not because it's fun in itself, but because it can be afkd through for good rewards.

The fact that none of what I've posted "must" be done doesn't make this checklist go away. You're forced to weigh opportunity cost against running something just because you feel like it. And often, players will pick the path of least resistance-- meaning, someone that would've enjoyed running [whatever] instead ends up watching netflix while afking for rewards.

Then, on top of all of this you can consider Savage/Extremes. Unless you abandon the entire checklist and only do Savage/Extremes. Opportunity cost again.

As far as Balmung is concerned, I feel like it has taken a drastic turn for the worse. Back in the days of ARR the server had a lot more people who were interested in the game as a whole rather than only being interested in role-play and little else.

I'm the sort of player who tries to dabble in everything on offer to various degrees. When Balmung was considered to be the place to be it was far easier to meet people on the server to team up with for a variety of in-game activities.

These days? It is a struggle. I rarely see people from Balmung in Eureka or PvP. I post on this board frequently and spot players who used to play on Balmung but have since transferred elsewhere. It's a little disheartening.

There are, however, some solid gems I stick around for. So it isn't all bad.

FFlog if anything made optimizing and improving weekly easier. I raid to press buttons, get loot and improve every week. This hasn’t change for me since 2.0 and my group has always been of like mind. Clearing a tier at min ilv still gives me that rush of accomplishment as it always has. I think the problem is finding a group that suits your style and conflicting goals of what you want from your raiding experience.

That's the problem when max DPS is the most effective answer to everything. No matter what role you play, in the end you will always be judged by how much DPS you bring to the raid. People play like selfish pricks, ignoring mechanics and not using utility bc they cannot live with knowing they "wasted" one GCD. Anyone remember fights in Everquestwhere utility was king, and you had multiple parties who's only job it was to keep adds CC'ed while the main raid was doing their thing? And fights took so long Necros were more cherished for their ability to feed mana to healers than for their DPS, bc no matter, there was no way to make it through the fights without running out of mana? And 5-6 healers doing nothing else than running their heal chains nonstop bc that was the only way to even keep the tank alive since the mobs didn't hit like pussies? Allof those roles were needed, because pure DPS couldn't save you from wiping. That was real teamwork and having a fulfilling role other than being a DPS number.

Before FFLogs there was a convoluted spreadsheet only the most insane felt like updating with any regularity. FFLogs just took something that already existed and made it less tedious to work with.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I feel that unless you're recruiting for a static of some kind, then looking up someone in fflogs before you play with them is a tad excessive.

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It depends on the perspective. I tend to glance at their logs to form an expectation. Based on the consistency of said logs, I determine how much patience I'll ultimately have with their performance. If we go in and they're dying to silly things or they're getting out-dps'd by a tank, I'll consider replacing them for another player. I'm also mindful to dig into their logs a bit. Did they have bad healers, which led to deaths the DPS or tanks had no control over? Did the BRD/MCH have a DRG? Stuff like that. You can analyse virtually everything with FFlogs. What it boils down for a lot of people is how much time they want to potentially waste on someone who doesn't appear very good.

It's no different than a job interview. Your resume may not accurately represent your skills, but a potential employer has nothing else to go on but your word. Now you may think it silly to liken a video game to a job, however that evaluation is entirely subjective. Some people want a quick and efficient clear. If they elect to make a PF, they are within their right to have whatsoever standards they fancy. Others couldn't care less and simply want to have fun.

The issue often derives from mixing these two mindsets. Which is why it's ultimately better parties disband quickly or people are rotated out/leave otherwise it's unlikely to work out. And in that scenario, no one benefits.

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Originally Posted by Coupain

sorry for my english

i totally agree with you. Raiding in ARR times was better because only the progression was important

In my opinion FF logs have destroy the game ( it s my opinion)

Before FF logs, people only wanted raiding to destoy their boss, now people only want to destroy their dic...

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How did fflogs destroy the game? Its just an homepage which shows you, in detail, how your fight went which is a good thing if people would only know how to use it properly.

The only thing that has a bad influence on the game are people who don't know how to use given tools, like a parser and fflogs, properly and the people who constantly keep complaining about these tools.

(Yes its just another "FFlogs is evil = Parsers are evil = raiders, who use it, are evil" thread.)

I feel like a lot of people aren't really understanding what I'm trying to say, and on both sides. I personally do not (and I said this in the OP) have an issue with parsers the tool. I think it's an invaluable tool that can help you and your teammates progress steadily and efficiently in endgame content. I personally do not have access to one since I play on PS4 and am at the mercy of others. I don't have an issue with the analytical side of FFlogs either, nor with the site as a whole in all honesty.

My issue stems from the community and how they use it as a world wide competition to gauge everyone under the sun in a very tightly closed box that only a few people can fit into. If you are not in the consistent "orange" or "purple" ranges so many people have and want nothing to do with you. (Also as I stated in the OP, this applies to my personal experiences only and of my friends.) I've actually seen an individual who quit their static simply b/c they got a bad parse, the person who was parsing uploaded it and they left the static. Before they left they kept trying to sabotage the run so they could start the fight over. Even though the team cleared the fight easily w/o any incident other then the guy purposefully trying to wipe them. It wasn't enough for the person in question... this is my personal issue with FFLogs and the mentality of "PvE competition" that comes with it.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

(Yes its just another "FFlogs is evil = Parsers are evil = raiders, who use it, are evil" thread.)

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Nice try, but if you actually read my OP, that is the FURTHEST from the truth...