Culling and restructuring skills to make room for 5.0 abilities

Like Stormblood, 5.0 will probably usher in at least 2 new buttons per job. To make room for this, I have some suggestions for at least Dragoon (my main job).

1) Remove Heavy Thrust completely and put the Damage+10% buff onto Vorpal Thrust and shorten the buff duration to accommodate this.

2) Remove Impulse Drive and allow for True Thrust to combo into both Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel. Doing this puts Dragoon in-line with other melee:
NIN: Gust Slash combos into Aeolian Edge, Armor Crush, and Shadow Fang
SAM: Hakaze combos into Jinpu, Shifu, and Yukikaze
PLD: Fast Blade combos into Riot Blade and Savage Blade
WAR: Heavy Swing combos into both Skull Sunder and Maim
DRK: Hard Slash combos into both Spinning Slash and Siphon Strike.

This streamlines DRG's combos completely and removes 2 unnecesary abilities and creating room for some new weapon skills.

While we're at it, remove Hot Shot and find some other way to bake it into the kit without 1 button press every 60 seconds

Owyeah, no doubt there will be weeding out/replacing of certain skills. Only so much buttons on a keyboard ;D

While there is no doubt of a culling i think there is another way to free up button space.

auto forwarding combo buttons, proc based skill changing buttons, stat based skill changing buttons.

And before the "but this will make the game dull end easy" crowd jumps in, we allready have them ingame outside of PvP.
WAR: Fellcleave/Inner Beast, Decimate/Steel Cyclone;
AST: Draw/Play Card, Spread/play Card;
MNK: Tackles;
DRG: Geirskogul/Nastrond;
NIN: Ninjutsu;
SAM: Iaijutsu;
MCH: normal Shots/Heated Shots;
SMN Ruin II/Ruin IV
These are all ingame and some of them were ingame before the PvP button culling.

For BLM i can imagine Fire/Blizzard 3 turning into Fire/Blizzard 4 whenever Enochian is active. Everyone is using Fire/Blizzard 1 or something else to refresh Enochian anyway :P

(guess the starting move ice->fire would lose a lttle bit of dmg then tho.. hmm..)

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Originally Posted by TimeraiderGaranyi

For BLM i can imagine Fire/Blizzard 3 turning into Fire/Blizzard 4 whenever Enochian is active. Everyone is using Fire/Blizzard 1 or something else to refresh Enochian anyway :P

(guess the starting move ice->fire would lose a lttle bit of dmg then tho.. hmm..)

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You can exchange Fire with Fire III while in UI and for Firestarter-Procs, because Fire II has no other uses then transitioning from UI to AF or using the Proc.
Also you can Exchange Fire IV and Ice IV with each other while in their coresponding UI/AF state, because they arn't useable in the other.

While yes abilities will end up culled probably in the next expac, it feels a bit dirty to stream DRG's combos like that "to bring it in line with the other melee." I suppose that's just my own preference though.

I am just so sick and tired of all the abilities SCH has. I know arcanist is a dps class but really? Sch's literally have Bio, Miasma, Shadow Flare, Bane, Ruin II, Miasma II, Energy Drain.... I mean come on. We not only have to worry about all these dps skills but we also have to manage the pet abilities and stay on top of healing... Such a super busy job... At this point I've macro'd guard and steady together and leave my fairy's on sic. Guard when I'm ready for them to use abilities and steady when I don't want them to use their abilities. I'm sick of micromanaging lol. I don't do savage anyway so it's not important to micromanage. I love the SCH job but hopefully for 5.0 SE will really show us some love and maybe get rid of allot of this unnecessary stuff....

Rant over.

for smn pls combine trance with deathflare and Bahamut with Akh Morn... those „summon“-buttons are just waste of slots especially on controller <.<

As a Monk, I hope they do another pass over Monk's kit after the action rework was such a massive letdown. We still have a ton of useless skills like the One Ilm Punch which has never done anything of value or the Fist Stances as a concept. We have skills that are significantly less effective than their peers in other jobs like Purification which can only really be used during long phase transitions as an aggro cut instead of in an emergency due to the Chakra requirement and is only useful as a TP source in super protracted AOE situations or Riddle of Earth who's absolutely idiotic activation requirement of requiring a hit prevents it from being usable in many fights without risking a vulnerability up debuff or something worse like Belias's 30 second slow, and to add insult to injury it also won't proc if a scholar shields too well and you take no damage.

And in spite of all this trash being in Monk's kit, we also lack basic utility every other job has, we don't have a DPS neutral movement skill, disengage like the other Melee have, a ranged attack, or even a way to dump our gauge in an AOE situation.

My hope is that they do something like this in 5.0

Fists of Fire: Removed, have the damage folded innately into our kit in some other manner.

Fists of Wind: Removed, possibly turned into a trait to boost our innate movement speed.

Fists of Earth: Removed.

Tackle Mastery and the associated elemental tackles: Removed with the exception of Wind Tackle.

Riddle of Earth: Removed, replaced with a Trait called "Form Mastery: Allows Greased Lightning to be refreshed by Formshifting from Coeurl Form to Opo Opo form". This would put Monk literally on par with every other job's ability to refresh it's Buff and is directly analogous to Transpose refreshing Enochian on Black Mage.

One-Ilm Punch: Removed and Replaced with a Raptor Form AOE skill to give monk a complete AOE rotation.

Purification: Removed from the Chakra system or just removed and replaced with an AOE Chakra oGCD.

Steel Peak: Could also be pruned since it doesn't particularly add anything in terms of job flavor or identity and it doesn't even have the decency to be on a cooldown with a 30 second interval like everything else.

Hopefully Monk can finally have the basic functionality other jobs get to enjoy, because so far Monk's kit is the story of having to jump through a bunch of stupid hoops to do things other Job's can just do with the press of a button.

I would be sad to see Steal Peak go simply because I really love the animation. But to keep it it I think it needs to give you a Chakra each time you use it or something.

I am not seeing anyone here suggesting we remove/merge all of the cross role skills. Since they aren't cross role anymore and we all get all of them I see no reason they couldn't just merge most of those back into the classes. All of those abilities that either interrupt or slow an enemy, merge that status effect into an ability in the class. Some abilities like True North or Esuna might need to stay. I could see this freeing up at least 5 buttons on everyone's bars, maybe more.

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Originally Posted by Neela

for smn pls combine trance with deathflare and Bahamut with Akh Morn... those „summon“-buttons are just waste of slots especially on controller <.<

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I thought so too but for the trance/deathflare I realized why it would be a TERRIBLE idea. Indeed, deathflare ends trance. Since deathflare has a cooldown anyway, I honestly don't understand why it wasn't changed with SB and still does so, but it does.

So picture yourself this exemple : in fight, you're mashing that button to enter trance (everyone is mashing let's be honest we watch PoV), and alas smash once too much : you just entered trance and immediately deathflared by mistake.

Sadness ensues.

SO yes to the switch IF they remove the "trance ending" effect, the cooldown preventing more than one use per trance anyway.

Totally ok for Akh Morn and summon Bahamut though. What I do meanwhile to compensate for their lack of thought in ergonomy, is this macro :

/micon "Enkindle Bahamut"
/macroerror off
/actionerror off
/ac "Enkindle Bahamut"
/ac "Summon Bahamut"


I use the icon of Akh morn to see the cooldown during Baha, cause we have to use it twice. The fact Bahamut is summonable is on the job UI so no need for the icon.
So what it does : if Bahamut is not here, it summons it. If he's here, it launches Akh Morn. The slight clipping for the macro on an oGCD is ok cause you normally just single weave in Bahamut. The too errors off is to avoid annoying messages.

And you can use it for some skills that only launch under a condition also. But not on deathflare cause of what I mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

Snip.

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What SE should do in my opinion is merge Summon Bahamut and Rouse with DWT (DWT effectively upgrading Rouse and gaining its benefits/duration, while Bahamut replaces Rouse's effects but not DWT's during it), and Enkindle: Bahamut with Enkindle, including sharing cooldowns. Remove the Ruin IV proc and reduce Enkindle's cooldown, then remove the Aetherflow Lockouts. You'll get a lot less Bahamut windows (Since they come every three Aetherflow as opposed to every 2 beyond the opener), but that leaves room for the class to grow (and for their numbers to get adjusted to be fairer), and most importantly, get something to do outside of the Aetherflow/DWT window that isn't binary Ruin spam. Note that I'd expect that filler to involve the Ruin spell line in general. Hopefully not as combos, but through a resource you can plan around that lets you use Ruin III/IV outside of DWT in a limited but reliable fashion, while guaranteeing their use inside DWT. I could see SE adding traits to do that next expansion and simply upgrading Ruin I/II to Ruin III/IV during DWT/Bahamut at 70 and leaving it at that.

I also kinda hope they remove the Tri-Disaster reset as well. I don't mind managing SMN's dots at all under the new unified duration. It would balance them out too, letting them push Ruin III/IV more.

Not a fan of 'bringing classes in-line', as that just makes them all feel a bit more samey... Impulse Drive could definitely go though, and just make Heavy Thrust the start of the 2nd combo (then shift other abilities down and put Doom Spike around level 20; level 40 for the first AoE ability is just silly)

As for 1 button combos, why not, nothing hard about pressing 1-2-3 compared to 1-1-1... they should be optional though (manually configurable?) so if people still want separate buttons they can.

And as for BLM, no need to do anything crazy (they still have plenty of near useless abilities to cull), just please get rid of the punishment mechanics (i.e. SB Enochian) and add more movement / 'stack saving' utility (so they can always realise their high DPS potential regardless of fight mechanics, and without being near clairvoyant).

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Originally Posted by Legion88

And before the "but this will make the game dull end easy" crowd jumps in, we allready have them ingame outside of PvP.
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yeah that is a dumb excuse
but with how striking jobs work it just wouldn't end well
since SAM mekiyo shisui can bypass combo to fill up sen or reapply buffs
and Monk is all over the place

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Originally Posted by Duskane

yeah that is a dumb excuse
but with how striking jobs work it just wouldn't end well
since SAM mekiyo shisui can bypass combo to fill up sen or reapply buffs
and Monk is all over the place

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SAMs Mekiyo Shisui is really in an odd place for this and it has to be reworked for a transition into auto advancing buttons.
As an example for a possible solution:
Mekiyo Shisui
Execute up to 3 weaponskills without prerequisites.
Combos are advanced to their combo finishers.
Adds the effect of Shifu to Kasha.
Adds the effect of Jinpu to Gekko.
Does not affect Iaijutsu.
Duration: 10 seconds

Monk on the other hand has also just one problem: Perfect Balance.
His 6 main GCD weaponskills can easily be sorted into 2 combo strings and placed on 2 buttons which are advancing to the appopiate skill for its current form.
Button 1:

1. No form/Opo-opo form: Bootshine
2. Raptor form: True Strike
3. Coeurl form: Snap Punch

Button 2:

1. No form/opo-opo form: Dragon Kick
2. Raptor form: Twin Snakes
3. Coeurl form: Demolish

So both buttons will advance based on the form and the "combos" can be mixed like usual.
Perfect Balance is the only skill who needs a whole bunch of rework to fit into this changes, even more like my Mekiyo Shisui example, but it is possible.

Apparently SE has decided that having 4 buttons for each combo which is never pressed out of order means you need more skill... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

So picture yourself this exemple : in fight, you're mashing that button to enter trance (everyone is mashing let's be honest we watch PoV), and alas smash once too much : you just entered trance and immediately deathflared by mistake.

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They could also very simply add a 1-2s cd upon activation.


Anyway, what I'd like to see:
BLM, merging of leyline and between the line, fire/blizz IV into enochian (like in pvp basically).

I'd like them to also make freeze an option to go in umbral ice after doing Flare (can't remember the skill name, big aoe at lv 50).
Possibly making flare not only an Aoe skill would be nice too, it's a good looking spell and it's a shame it's only used in dungeon.

Merging Heavy Thrust into Impulse drive definitely makes more sense than the other way around. Less editing involved. What I'd like to see SE add in return is a dynamic finisher to DRG's combos. One that you could use as your 4th, 5th, or 6th skill without losing your average DPS, while being a true finisher. They'd likely implement a dynamic potency on it like they did with Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust, but make it close to Full Thrust's potency (lower on 4th, higher on 6th), to balance it overall regardless of where it was used. That way a DRG could end their combo when they need to. As long as it didn't have a positional it would be great. It would allow you to save True North for when you really need it once you got used to a fight.



Flare has been used in BLM openers before too. The reason it isn't now is because 1) Your MP doesn't allow for it under its minimum cost, and 2) You'd be giving up a Fire IV for it which thanks to the extra potency buffs just isn't worth it on single bosses anymore. It breaks ahead on 2 targets however so by all means use it to finish off a rotation if it lines up with somewhere you'd want to AoE, especially if you have a Foul ready to recover the MP tick. I don't think giving Freeze a trait to allow it to be used at 0 MP would really change that all too much. More likely what'll happen to facilitate new skills though is Blizzard II and Fire II will be replaced by Flare/Freeze entirely in that case, since they could bake that trait into Freeze itself as part of a few tweaks to it.



As for Machinist, it needs Gauss Barrel to be moved off of the hotbar, not Hot Shot. It could easily be reworked into a trait and lose nothing. Hot Shot however can be reworked to give Piercing and also act as a massive heat generator to counteract Cooldown, which would free up Barrel Stabilizer as a recovery tool, something that MCH needs badly. They also need Flamethrower, Overheat and Wildfire to be looked at. I don't know if widening the windows on the latter two would be the best idea. I think reworking them both into a stack-based buff and debuff each would be better overall, especially if they only affected weaponskills. Same with Flamethrower to be honest, just make it instantly max your heat instead of the ticks. If the overheat window was reworked into a stack buff, then using Flamethrower for AoE wouldn't feel bad at all either.

i don’t see a difference in using that macro for Bahamut but not for trance because u have to weave an ogcd while bahamuts summon-animation -> therefor u face the same problem by just smashing that macro in both cases.

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Originally Posted by Neela

i don’t see a difference in using that macro for Bahamut but not for trance because u have to weave an ogcd while bahamuts summon-animation -> therefor u face the same problem by just smashing that macro in both cases.

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Because using Akh Morn immediately because of mashing doesn't desummon Bahamut, but Deathflare does end trance. Worst case scenario you lose one WW.
What you can also do is use that macro but with classic enkidle instead of summon Bahamut. That way enkindle "becomes" enkindle Bahamut when Bahamut is here.

that would make more sense... maybe even for an official update - combining skills which are effected by certain rotation-lockouts. Enkindle to Akh Morn - I would like that yeah :3

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

While yes abilities will end up culled probably in the next expac, it feels a bit dirty to stream DRG's combos like that "to bring it in line with the other melee." I suppose that's just my own preference though.

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I concur. The whole point of DRG's longer combos is because it double weaves oGCDs. Removing two abilities makes that more of a hindrance. Not to mention, if I wanted DRG to be "more in line with the other melees," I would just play the other melee jobs. Furthermore, removing Heavy Thrust and putting the buff on Vorpal Thrust is silly. This essentially makes it another Slashing/Piercing/Blunt, where you will never not apply it, thus rendering it entirely pointless. Just bake the 10% into DRG's overall damage and be done with it. Of course, that makes the job even more streamlined. And I'd rather not reward people who can't even remember to press Heavy Thrust every second combo.
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Anywho!

As for the topic at hand, I would prefer they adopt a more unique approach with abilities. Instead of simply removing a handful, upgrade some or have longer oGCDs have a secondary proc. For example, Litany and Battle Voice are buttons which do nothing for three minutes. They could very easily have a proc of some sort active between that three minute window. Obviously, you want to use it before Litany and BV are off CD, but this opens up a new ability without taking up any hot bar real estate. With that in mind...

Dragoon:
- Have Heavy Thrust upgrade either through proc-ing from a successful combo chain or simply leveling. Add a 5% damage increase and you've covered Piercing hopeful removal.
- Add a new trait for Life Surge, perhaps allowing the next two weapon skills to Crit
- New skill tied behind Battle Litany. Possibly proc-ing only after three Nastronds
- Upgrade Jump

Ninja
- Rework Hide to have a more active role in-combat, possibly tying it with Assassination; assuming it isn't removed
- Add a Fourth Mudra
- Potentially merge Trick Attack into Ninjutsu or have a new skill replace Trick Attack (similar to have Nastrond replaces Geirskogul)

Bard:
- Merge Straight Shot and Refulgent Arrow. If the latter procs, it replaces the former
- Add above menetioned skill behind Battle Voice
- Remove Repelling Shot or give a passive aggro dump
- Upgrade DoTs or Iron Jaws
- Upgrade Heavy Shot

Tanks:
- Have all current enmity effects on aggro powers (Power Slash, Butcher's Block and etc) baked into Tank Stance, i.e., using Souleater has the same effect as using Power Slash if Grit is active
- Rework or remove all aggro combos

Now I want to emphasise these were only ideas of possible additions. Not that every single one should be implemented. Just wanted to highlight how we don't actually need a bunch of new abilities taking up extra space, especially on tanks who barely touch their aggro combos nowadays anyway. Another benefit of this approach is jobs aren't gutted below max level. If Jump gets upgraded, well, you still have regular Jump until say, 77.

"- Add a Fourth Mudra"

Um... this alone would require adding SIX new abilities:
X, 4
X, X, 4
X, X, X, 4
X, X, X, 1
X, X, X, 2
X, X, X, 3

Which would be a pretty convoluted addition, screw over controller users (because the three mudra and ninjutsu fit so well on one pad) and I'm not sure what you could use as the fourth mudra with Tenchijin being pretty well defined.

Unless there is just ONE more skill, that's accessed by using any four mudras, not needing to actually create a fourth mudra as such.

I agree that a 4th mudra is redundant. A trait to allow doubling up on mudra that only uses the existing three would be better imo. Probably just as a way to buff up the potency of existing skills rather than adding a new one. So using any single mudra 2-3 times just boosts the potency of Fuma Shuriken. Same with Raiton/Katon/Hyoton if you use the last mudra in their sequences a second time. The existing triple mudras would be unaffected and it would be a nice buff to TCJ.

Removing the positional requirement on Trick Attack would be amazing too.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Bard:
- Merge Straight Shot and Refulgent Arrow. If the latter procs, it replaces the former

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Having RA pop right before you need to refresh SH and dots can cause you lost gcds if it prevents you from using SH before IJ.

At same point they need to face facts that they can't keep adding 5 skills every expansion. They should start mixing in traits or other passive things.

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Originally Posted by Sunspawn

Having RA pop right before you need to refresh SH and dots can cause you lost gcds if it prevents you from using SH before IJ.

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But that doesn't happen as 9/10 times, Refulgent Arrow procs when the boss goes untargetable.

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Originally Posted by Sunspawn

Having RA pop right before you need to refresh SH and dots can cause you lost gcds if it prevents you from using SH before IJ.

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Easy solution, just have RA refresh Straight Shot.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Dragoon:
- Have Heavy Thrust upgrade either through proc-ing from a successful combo chain or simply leveling. Add a 5% damage increase and you've covered Piercing hopeful removal.
- Add a new trait for Life Surge, perhaps allowing the next two weapon skills to Crit
- New skill tied behind Battle Litany. Possibly proc-ing only after three Nastronds
- Upgrade Jump

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personally would rather a new trait for wheeling thrust and Fang and claw increase potency which extends the Red blood of dragoon aura and gives them a new animation.
Removing mirage dive and each jump automatically just opens the eye a little more (jumps can just get another trait at 68 that increases there DPS to make up for the loss).
doom spike automatically procs into sonic thrust at level 62 without taking another slot.
remove pierce resist down on Disembowel and just place the Phlebotomize dot on it with a jump potency increase
a new jump with a vertical aoe like dark passenger with a 90 second cd which is reduced by 5 each gierskogul and Nastrond
[somthing somthing somthing heavy thrust]
also how clunky dragon sight is in battle something to use with a bit more ease would be nice that doesnt require a macro

Never a 4th Mudra unless the potency is profound to make up for the GCD clipping. The amount of GCD clipping is bad enough with 3 mudras, which is why Fuma>Raiton in most cases.

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Furthermore, removing Heavy Thrust and putting the buff on Vorpal Thrust is silly. This essentially makes it another Slashing/Piercing/Blunt, where you will never not apply it, thus rendering it entirely pointless. Just bake the 10% into DRG's overall damage and be done with it.

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SAM's Jinpu? MNK's Twin Snakes? ARR/HW WAR's Maim?

Remove MCH to make room for a new gun class.

Since this job hasn't really been addressed yet:

Monk
Eliminate fist stances, and move Firsts of Fire to a passive trait. Tackle mastery was a joke in the first place. Keep Riddle of Fire as burst window and Riddle of Earth as a defensive cool down. Replace Shoulder Tackle with Riddle of Wind permanently. Also rework Riddle of Earth so the shield you currently get from taking damage applies immediately (since you're not longer getting the 10% damage reduction from being in Fists of Earth) and keep the GL refresh upon taking damage. Add in that GL refreshes every time you take damage while the shield is active.

Delete One Ilm Punch.

Also, wishlist, give us a skill like Aura Cannon so that we're not the only job in the game without a ranged attack.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

SAM's Jinpu? MNK's Twin Snakes? ARR/HW WAR's Maim?

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Consolidating buffs onto something you're going to use anyways is just the first step in getting rid of them.

Samurai's basic loop is building and spending Sen and Kenki. Putting buffs on main combo lines just means they're always up, and the build up is honestly not that long / important.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

SAM's Jinpu? MNK's Twin Snakes? ARR/HW WAR's Maim?

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For DRG it is different.
Heavy Thrust sometimes feels out of place and just baking the 10% into the whole kit or into a trait instead of just giving the buff upkeep to another skill would be the better option in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Consolidating buffs onto something you're going to use anyways is just the first step in getting rid of them.

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For SAM and especially for MNK the upkeep of the buffs through their rotation represents the upkeep of the flow of battle, weaving one attack into the next and gaining power through the undisturbed flow of motion and the redirectiong of momentum.
Disturb the flow and the buffs representing the power gain will fall of, it is part of their identity mechanically represented.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Disturb the flow and the buffs representing the power gain will fall of, it is part of their identity mechanically represented.

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If you say so, given that the Sam buffs last about 2 cycles without considering refreshes, and Sen/Kenki do the exact same thing.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Since this job hasn't really been addressed yet:

Monk
Eliminate fist stances, and move Firsts of Fire to a passive trait. Tackle mastery was a joke in the first place. Keep Riddle of Fire as burst window and Riddle of Fire as a defensive cool down. Replace Shoulder Tackle with Riddle of Wind permanently. Also rework Riddle of Earth so the shield you currently get from taking damage applies immediately (since you're not longer getting the 10% damage reduction from being in Fists of Earth) and keep the GL refresh upon taking damage. Add in that GL refreshes every time you take damage while the shield is active.

Delete One Ilm Punch.

Also, wishlist, give us a skill like Aura Cannon so that we're not the only job in the game without a ranged attack.

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Tornado kick and purification need some adjustment
Same with sams third eye mechanic
especially seigan that just needs to go doesn't even look cool

My hopes for Sam is it gets a move like pre 4.2 inner release for kenki and a shinten trait that lowers guren cd by 5 secs l

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If you say so, given that the Sam buffs last about 2 cycles without considering refreshes, and Sen/Kenki do the exact same thing.

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Yeah, SAM is a little wierd in that aspect.
The only reason i saw for that long buff timers would be min SkS, fitting Meikyo Sishui for 3 Sen into it and then refreshing all buffs again...
But even for this the timers are way to long and in no way in danger for falling of.
So yeah i'm not sure if my argument really fits for SAM...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Tanks:
- Have all current enmity effects on aggro powers (Power Slash, Butcher's Block and etc) baked into Tank Stance, i.e., using Souleater has the same effect as using Power Slash if Grit is active
- Rework or remove all aggro combos

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Tank stances would have to be moved to a lower level. Newbie tanks running dungeons with over-geared DPS will never hold threat otherwise.