Readability and the log text

I've been wondering this for a while...

The English client... every line intended to convey information to the player about event ongoing within the game environment (battles, actions, etc) is constructed as if the game were a traditional MUD or interactive fiction game.

For synths example...

Player Bob creates a pair of iron poleyns.
Player Jane creates 12 pots of jellyfish humours.
Player Jane botches the synthesis!

It get's real messy quite fast as English is not very constant with structure. If the amounts synthed are swapped you'd get

Player Bob creates 12 pairs of iron poleyns.
Player Jane creates a pot of jellyfish humours.

So "a pair" -> "12 pairs".
And "12 pots." -> "a pot."

This turns into a headache for the devs, players, everyone. I mean the actual items are just "iron poleyn" and "jellyfish humour".

Why not use the same abridged version that the Japanese client uses in all the clients?

<Origin Name>は「<item>」×<N>を完成させた！

or in English would be something like...

<Origin Name> creates "<item>" x<N>!

This formats applies to all four languages.

<Origin Name>, <item>, and x<N> are always visible.

How is the current method confusing? You get to see the number and who made it just fine, the only possible confusing part is that it uses the plural form of the name. It gives you the name of the item when you choose to make it in the first place (And I'd hope you're not just putting in random recipes anyway with them making all recipes plainly visible on the lodestone). The only possible source of confusion is if you're passing by someone making an item that has a funny plural name, but does this really need a change for that? It's not like it's any of your business in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how it's a headache to anyone... except you I guess.

This is just me, but I like the flavor text of what the items are.

A pinch of bomb ash.
A tuft of phoenix down.
A block of animal glue.
etc.

I see where you're coming from in creating a level of consistency, but I really do appreciate the effort that the localization team has gone through to incorporate the units of measure for these items.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laraul

I've been wondering this for a while...

The English client... every line intended to convey information to the player about event ongoing within the game environment (battles, actions, etc) is constructed as if the game were a traditional MUD or interactive fiction game.

For synths example...

Player Bob creates a pair of iron poleyns.
Player Jane creates 12 pots of jellyfish humours.
Player Jane botches the synthesis!

It get's real messy quite fast as English is not very constant with structure. If the amounts synthed are swapped you'd get

Player Bob creates 12 pairs of iron poleyns.
Player Jane creates a pot of jellyfish humours.

So "a pair" -> "12 pairs".
And "12 pots." -> "a pot."

This turns into a headache for the devs, players, everyone. I mean the actual items are just "iron poleyn" and "jellyfish humour".

Why not use the same abridged version that the Japanese client uses in all the clients?

<Origin Name>は「<item>」×<N>を完成させた！

or in English would be something like...

<Origin Name> creates "<item>" x<N>!

This formats applies to all four languages.

<Origin Name>, <item>, and x<N> are always visible.

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Personally, I love it the way it is. I particularly like how it knows the plural of "lapis lazuli" is "lapides lazuli." Latin 101 for the win!

Don't forget things like Subligaria.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Don't forget things like Subligaria.

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So you are saying everyone needs to understand Latin to play the English version, a language whose origins are Germanic, being developed by a team that doesn't understand a *WORD* of any of this?

I will tell you who hates this! EVERYONE WORKING ON THE GAME! None of these words show up in the game's DICTIONARY. That should tell you SOMETHING.

Seriously have you even ENABLED the Japanese language mode for the game and tried it? They keep the log display SIMPLE, even though there is no reason why they couldn't make it much more formal.

BTW... none of your "complaints" apply to the battle log. Which is the bigger issue. Take a look at a brief sample. I enlarge the font at the end to "middle sized" which makes it more readable... much better compared to this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laraul

BTW... none of your "complaints" apply to the battle log. Which is the bigger issue. Take a look at a brief sample. I enlarge the font at the end to "middle sized" which makes it more readable... much better compared to this.

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I don't know. I found the second quite readable; I couldn't read the first one at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laraul

So you are saying everyone needs to understand Latin to play the English version, a language whose origins are Germanic, being developed by a team that doesn't understand a *WORD* of any of this?

I will tell you who hates this! EVERYONE WORKING ON THE GAME! None of these words show up in the game's DICTIONARY. That should tell you SOMETHING.

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What the hell are you smoking? You don't need to understand those words to play the game, because the only times they come up are in cases where you should know damn well what the item is in the first place. Also, the team DOES know what these words are. The localization team (Who are the only ones who need to know these words) have shown themselves in the past to be quite well versed when it comes to language, and have answered questions in the past concerning the odd cases.

As for them not showing up in the game's dictionary, that is because the dictionary does not have plurals of any kind. Nor does it have a lot of other elements of grammar. The auto-translator only has the most basic forms of words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laraul

So you are saying everyone needs to understand Latin to play the English version, a language whose origins are Germanic, being developed by a team that doesn't understand a *WORD* of any of this?

I will tell you who hates this! EVERYONE WORKING ON THE GAME! None of these words show up in the game's DICTIONARY. That should tell you SOMETHING.

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Now that just flies in the face of logic. The localizers in this game are highly competent and the English version is developed alongside the Japanese version, not as an afterthought.

Ferne, Eeemeefu and team have also demonstrated an attitude that shows they enjoy their work. The presence of these complexities and archasims in language adds a certain charm to the game too.

My favorite plural word is Macuahuitl -> Macuahuimeh. I have no idea where the localization team found that plural word. I tried looking around on the internet for it, and I just had to laugh when the first google search entry points to FFXIV.

I, too, disagree with the OP. I also don't understand what the two videos were supposed to show.

People don't understand what I am trying to get across. Do you not people not use the game log? I know most people don't bother with the battle log because it sends too much information at you to fast. All I am asking is why not display it in a way that's easier to comprehend when scanning thru it.

You people think I'm talking about text used for the naritive? Used for the story, NPC conversations, quest history, etc? The lore of the game? I'm not. I'm talking about the dreary repeative text that appears over and over and over.

This is a brief wikipedia article about Square/SquareEnix localizes their games. It basically does explain that that the team localizing the game is for the most part separate from the main the developers... this is not really a problem... though most SE games don't include a command line...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laraul

People don't understand what I am trying to get across. Do you not people not use the game log? I know most people don't bother with the battle log because it sends too much information at you to fast. All I am asking is why not display it in a way that's easier to comprehend when scanning thru it.

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Actually, I do understand. You want a completely standardized format, and I understand the advantages of that. I just don't think it's worth the loss of flavor.

Quote:

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You people think I'm talking about text used for the naritive? Used for the story, NPC conversations, quest history, etc? The lore of the game? I'm not. I'm talking about the dreary repeative text that appears over and over and over.

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But my point is that it *is* part of the narrative, part of the lore, in its own small way.

I understand precisely what you're talking about. And I still don't see any reason to change it. Heck, some of the weird words used has led to us learning some quite fascinating things from the localization team, who seem to LOVE that part of their job.

The log is legible and even amusing sometimes. While there may be an argument to structure it as you say, the current system isn't broken.

In fact, I believe the current format takes away some of the dreariness of which you speak.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

I think the decision is pretty unanimous. Since all of us like the oddities of the english client, Laraul can just go ahead and use the JP UI :)

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Originally Posted by Catapult

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

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EXACTLY! That's what I'm trying to say! They are fixing something that is fine to begin with. Thanks for unintentionally finding these words I so desperately needed!

And Urthdiggger... it's not about what people "like" it's what people need. If you think that it's fine that as of right now you can't go Jaqpanese -> English -> Japanese -> English or English -> Chinese -> German -> etc. you do not understand what my goal is. This is a positive thing for both the developers, not only the users. And that is something that's pretty hard to deny.

Did some comparison of the 4 diffrent languages. I gotta agree that (apart from not understanding the language) the layout of JP is far superior compared to EN/FR/GE. I'd like to have some arrows and formatting on the EN logs.

Its not any dealbreaker, but I always ponderd why JP logs look "cooler" then mine :p

Screencaps of the main diffrenced I found.

http://ornholt.no/files/ffxiv/en_cure.jpg


http://ornholt.no/files/ffxiv/jp_cure.jpg

http://ornholt.no/files/ffxiv/fr_craft.jpg

http://ornholt.no/files/ffxiv/jp_craft.jpg

I am drunk.

What I get from this thread: OP wants SOMETHING easier to comprehend. Yet no one understand what he/she/it is saying.

And then I read another post. Conradus comprehends what Laraul is trying to say, which he/she/it thinks people don't comprehend.

Update: I read another post. Earthdigger comprehends. Snaps for Marsdigger.

Updating the update: Laraul wants them to update something that's not broken. Or something.

Updated update: Still drunk

Why was the format changed from the one the original client had anyway? I agree the JP log is more readable, and the French version seems to have kept at least some of it. I never started the game in German, but I expect it to be closer to English too.

I originally started this thread under the "User Interface" forums. It was moved here to localization by an admin. I really don't think this is a localization issue. I think that admin made a mistake. Could some move this topic BACK to the User Interface discussion forum?

Oh yeah and here's a comparison of the Japanese and English Locales of the multi-hit weapon display...

Japanese

http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/to.../f2/4783_2.jpg

English

http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/to.../fe/4784_2.jpg

German

http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/to.../08/4786_2.jpg

The log window sole purpose is convey as much information to the user as quickly and elegantly as possible. A brief glance at the log window needs to be able to give the reader all the information needed. Otherwise such information is of little help since you have but a fraction of a second to read it before it scrolls out of view.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laraul

I originally started this thread under the "User Interface" forums. It was moved here to localization by an admin. I really don't think this is a localization issue. I think that admin made a mistake. Could some move this topic BACK to the User Interface discussion forum?

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No, this is definitely a localisation issue. This is because you are asking for something unique to the English version of the client. Our local voidsent are thus the best people to address the issues you are raising.

Hey guys, just wanted to post and let you know that we are indeed keeping an eye on this thread. Thanks for all the feedback and screenshots. While I can't tell you any specific changes that we will be making (since we also don't know them as of yet...), we can tell you that we do plan to make some alterations to the combat log in order to tidy it up.

That being said, plans for 2.0 are for a shift away from dependency on the combat log through use of such things as flying combat text and unit frame graphics/animations, etc. We ourselves have yet to see how far the dev team intends to go with this, however, so I can't say anything for certain at this point.

But rest assured that your voices have been heard and change is on the way.

Just reminding everyone that I've not forgotten about this. :)