Why do tanks need Determination stat still when they have Tenacity?

The only reason I can think of is because Healers Piety stat is VERY undertuned to where they don't even consider it a role stat...

Tenacity basically does what Determination does but with one extra thing that makes it worth getting, and that is damage mitigation.

Tanks shouldn't need a weaker version of a stat that is their role stat that just so happens to be available to all roles.

The only two solutions to fix this in the long term is buff Piety so that it has the same effects as Determination and make Determination DPS only stat, or delete Determination, Tenacity, and Piety altogether and buff the actual main stats.

And before someone says Direct Hit Rate is the DPS role stat; no it's not, it's available to all Roles, it's just post Heavensward content the DPS are hogging all of the Direct Hit Rate, which they also need to delete Direct Hit Rate as stat.

Determination scales better than Tenacity, which is why tanks value the former more.

As for deleting those respective stats. That would reduce our already static gear progression to literally nothing. Every piece would be Crit/DH/SkS. That's a very boring system.

Direct hit is meant to be a dps only stat, but because it replaced accuracy it is currently on ARR and HW tank gear in abundance, so instead of locking the stat to dps like they did with piety and parry (stats that were primarily only on tank and healer gear) and going back to change every piece of tank gear that had accuracy on it to something else, they just left direct hit available to everyone and stopped putting it on their gear going forward. They obviously didn’t predict that players would value it over any other stat on tanks and healers so it became basically the only meld choice.

As for determination, the dps side is more potent than tenacity. Picture it like determination gives 100 damage while tenacity gives 50 damage and 50 mitigation. And since excess mitigation in this game is considered superfluous, determination is more valued due to it giving a greater dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

As for determination, the dps side is more potent than tenacity. Picture it like determination gives 100 damage while tenacity gives 50 damage and 50 mitigation. And since excess mitigation in this game is considered superfluous, determination is more valued due to it giving a greater dps increase.

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This, but to put Specific numbers, it takes an 1449 TEN stat in order to reduce incoming damage by 5% and increase damage by 5%. For the same amount of DET you get a 6.5% DPS increase without the damage taken reduction. It's about +.045% DPS per TEN, +.059% per DET. It's a fairly small gain, but one that adds up when you have 1500-2000 DET.

I'll speak from the perspective of maining PLD for almost three years now.

Determination has proven to be a wonderful stat for me, reason being that it has boosted my Clemency and Holy Spirit to the point I felt it worthwhile. It also increases my baselines appreciably, but I have no illusions about ever making it to the "99th Percentile" on FFLogs or snatching the "big d**k DPS" crown from WAR.

As was previously mentioned, Tenacity just doesn't scale in quite the same way in terms of boosting one's DPS. I don't relegate it to the status of a dump stat, but it's not my priority, especially when you consider PLD arguably has the best damage mitigation and CDs of all three tank jobs.

As for "metas" and such, I really pay no attention to them. I'll probably dodge a tomato or two by saying this, but I personally have no use for Dir Hit melds on a tank. Build your character in a way that works for you. If you want to do straight DH melds left and right, be my guest. If you want to meld Tenacity over Determination because that's what works best for the way you play your tank job, go nuts.

I think the less we preached to the choir about what others "should" be doing with their builds and focused more on optimizing our own builds instead, the collective sanity of our community would benefit immensely. But that's just my opinion. :V

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

I'll speak from the perspective of maining PLD for almost three years now.

Determination has proven to be a wonderful stat for me, reason being that it has boosted my Clemency and Holy Spirit to the point I felt it worthwhile. It also increases my baselines appreciably, but I have no illusions about ever making it to the "99th Percentile" on FFLogs or snatching the "big d**k DPS" crown from WAR.

As for "metas" and such, I really pay no attention to them. I'll probably dodge a tomato or two by saying this, but I personally have no use for Dir Hit melds on a tank. Build your character in a way that works for you. If you want to do straight DH melds left and right, be my guest. If you want to meld Tenacity over Determination because that's what works best for the way you play your tank job, go nuts.

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Well, yes and no.

Going Tenacity instead of Determination sure is a DPS loss, but a minor one. Meld are worth a couple hundreds of substats, which will boost your damage by like 2-4% depending on which substat you choose. Basically, if you don't parse and optimize, you won't see any difference between full DET and full TEN melds. So, yeah, meld what makes you feel good unless you're going for the 90th+ percentile on fflogs. I could go full Tenacity melds on the left side, and only lose around 0.5% - 1% damage.

But, Strength melds on the right side are a significant increase to a tank's DPS. I mean, meld whatever you want, but at least please put STR melds on your accessories. STR materias are cheap and gives way more damage than any Crit/Det/DH materia.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

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As was previously mentioned, Tenacity just doesn't scale in quite the same way in terms of boosting one's DPS. I don't relegate it to the status of a dump stat, but it's not my priority, especially when you consider PLD arguably has the best damage mitigation and CDs of all three tank jobs.

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This might be a popular misconception, because PLD got a shield and shiny armor, but it's actually the tank that has the least personnal damage mitigation. Both WAR and DRK outclass PLD on this aspect.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

[...] I think the less we preached to the choir about what others "should" be doing with their builds and focused more on optimizing our own builds instead, the collective sanity of our community would benefit immensely. But that's just my opinion. :V

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Basically this. Melding DET, DH, TEN etc... won't make your DPS skyrocket. It's much more about optimizing the way you play rather than the way you build. Sure, building with the "right" stats will allow for a higher DPS, and is part of optimizing. But, the BiS gearset won't compensate for playing poorly.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

This might be a popular misconception, because PLD got a shield and shiny armor, but it's actually the tank that has the least personnal damage mitigation. Both WAR and DRK outclass PLD on this aspect.

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Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing. :)

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing. :)

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ALl tanks have access to rampart.
Paladins further have Sentinel (40% /180), Bulwark (Shield chance, unreliable, used for fluff or gauge buildilng), and Shelltron (28%, one hit)
Warriors have Vengeance (30% / 120), Raw intuition (20% on physical), Inner Beast (never used), and Thrill of Battle (+20% EHP, usually used for deepz)
Dark Nights have Shadow Wall (30% /120), Dark Mind (30% magic / 60), The Blackest Night (+20% EHP)

The difference between 30% and 40% doesn't really matter, so effectively the 30% can be used more often. Sentinel doesn't let you survive anything Vengeance / Shadow wall won't. Bulwark is a higher chance to block damage so you don't use it on things that can kill you. Shelltron can be hit off by other factors before the big hit comes in, so The Blackest Night still provides a layer no matter the circumstance.

Passively the Paladin is the most durable tank, but active mitigation is what matters, and it falls behind just a tad there, but makes up for this through Intervention and Cover. The Paladin effectively grants other Tanks additional mitigation cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

Now I'm curious. Time permitting, would you please explain the reasoning behind the above statement and what exactly is meant by "personal damage mitigation"?

Not trying to sound stupid; I'm just trying to see if we're thinking of the same thing. :)

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I mean, PLD self-mitigation is less good than DRK and WAR, but it's the best at mitigating damage on others. Cover, Intervention, Passage of Arms and Divine Veil are mitigation, but for the team. DRK and WAR can't protect an ally or the team so well.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Passively the Paladin is the most durable tank, but active mitigation is what matters, and it falls behind just a tad there, but makes up for this through Intervention and Cover. The Paladin effectively grants other Tanks additional mitigation cooldowns.

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Thanks for the reply. To be honest, this seems more of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" kind of thing to me.

Each jobs respective kit, upon closer examination, seems to have its own benefits and drawbacks. I'll agree that the gap is not really significant, but disagree that PLD is at any meaningful disadvantage with mitigation.

I also speak from the perspective of being the MT 95% of the time and not being an Intervention/Cover dispenser for WARs or DRKs. ^^ In content that requires tank swaps, sure. I'll throw an Intervention on you before a TB and maybe even a Reprisal on the boss, time permitting, but I consider it more of a professional courtesy than an absolute rule.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, this seems more of a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" kind of thing to me.

Each jobs respective kit, upon closer examination, seems to have its own benefits and drawbacks. I'll agree that the gap is not really significant, but disagree that PLD is at any meaningful disadvantage with mitigation.

I also speak from the perspective of being the MT 95% of the time and not being an Intervention/Cover dispenser for WARs or DRKs. ^^ In content that requires tank swaps, sure. I'll throw an Intervention on you before a TB and maybe even a Reprisal on the boss, time permitting, but I consider it more of a professional courtesy than an absolute rule.

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All tanks can MT and OT, it's more about the efficient use of cooldowns from both tanks. Though it doesn't matter in dungeons or normal raids / trials, in extreme / savage modes PLD really shines as OT. Once PLD used Rampart and Sentinel, they're kinda naked since Sentinel has such a long cooldown (whereas WAR and DRK have more defensive abilities / shorter cooldowns). Used correctly, Intervention and Cover are very powerful abilities when you're OT.

Also, PLD loses tons of damage by pulling the boss and staying in Shield Oath (about 25% of their damage, which is around 1000 DPS) and they struggle to switch stances during a fight, unlike WAR and DRK. That's why you prefer having the other tank pull (then you can provoke and tank in Sword Oath for example).

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Originally Posted by Megguido

Though it doesn't matter in dungeons or normal raids / trials...

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I'm glad you're one of the people who realize that Normal strategies don't necessarily apply to Savage/EX, and vice versa. Sometimes, I get the impression that a lot of folks speak from a mistaken perspective of nothing existing outside of the latter content.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

This, but to put Specific numbers, it takes an 1449 TEN stat in order to reduce incoming damage by 5% and increase damage by 5%. For the same amount of DET you get a 6.5% DPS increase without the damage taken reduction. It's about +.045% DPS per TEN, +.059% per DET. It's a fairly small gain, but one that adds up when you have 1500-2000 DET.

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This raises the next question; why should tanks sacrifice that 5-11% damage reduction that also increases DPS by 5-11%(Tenacity) for a flat 7-12% DPS increase(Determination)? Me personally; I would go for that stat that gives me more DPS and mitigation over the stat that is just raw damage.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

This raises the next question; why should tanks sacrifice that 5-11% damage reduction that also increases DPS by 5-11%(Tenacity) for a flat 7-12% DPS increase(Determination)? Me personally; I would go for that stat that gives me more DPS and mitigation over the stat that is just raw damage.

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Because mitigation only matters to a threshold. Anything above it is simply wasted stats unless your healers get an extra GCD out if it which will not happen. This is why Sentinal is objectively the worst of the big three tank CD. There is nothing that Vengeance or Shadow Wall won't cover. Therefore, making the extra 10% on a longer cooldown a worse trade. You essentially gain nothing but have to wait a full minute longer.

Tenacity would work better in WoW, where outgoing damage comes very quickly and consistently throughout the fight. In FFXIV, auto attacks aren't that threatening and busters are entirely predictable.

Simply put, Tenacity isn't bad, you'll just never have any real need for it.

So in the interest of honesty, re: damage mitigation, I thought I'd share that the final phase of O12 was a bit of an eye opener for me. I discovered in the process of learning the fight that if I wasn't careful, I would indeed run out of defensive CDs. Prior to O12, I never experienced hard hitting boss attacks and TBs in such rapid succession that I ended up burning through CDs and my Oath Gauge so quickly, but I think I now understand what context some of you were speaking from. So yes, I'd say given that the other two jobs have more CDs at their disposal with shorter duty cycles, it does place them at an advantage in that fight.

To tell you the truth, though, I think it was about time that WAR and DRK were given a chance to be the heroes for once. ^^ It also means this is an opportunity to improve my own skills and make up for those shortcomings.

Sometimes the best challenge is rocking a "sub-optimal" job and defying everyone's expectations. :D

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

...why should tanks sacrifice that 5-11% damage reduction that also increases DPS by 5-11%(Tenacity) for a flat 7-12% DPS increase(Determination)?

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Why not both? I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive, so I meld Determination and Tenacity. Still, what works for me may not necessarily work for you or someone else, so go with what's optimal for your play style.

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Originally Posted by Snarky_Sunseeker

Why not both? I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive, so I meld Determination and Tenacity. Still, what works for me may not necessarily work for you or someone else, so go with what's optimal for your play style.

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Generally speaking you have the stat budget to push two stats and dip into a third, or push one and mix two.

You won't get a better singular return than Crit in terms of damage potential though, other than Speed on pure GCD classes, but so far that's Black mage.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Because mitigation only matters to a threshold. Anything above it is simply wasted stats unless your healers get an extra GCD out if it which will not happen. This is why Sentinal is objectively the worst of the big three tank CD. There is nothing that Vengeance or Shadow Wall won't cover. Therefore, making the extra 10% on a longer cooldown a worse trade. You essentially gain nothing but have to wait a full minute longer.

Tenacity would work better in WoW, where outgoing damage comes very quickly and consistently throughout the fight. In FFXIV, auto attacks aren't that threatening and busters are entirely predictable.

Simply put, Tenacity isn't bad, you'll just never have any real need for it.

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And now the next question; do we want content where outgoing damage comes very quickly? Or do we already have that but most people didn't notice it?

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

And now the next question; do we want content where outgoing damage comes very quickly? Or do we already have that but most people didn't notice it?

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I'd love content with higher outgoing damage. The fact healers spend between 60-80% of their time DPSing is outright absurd. The whole reason people put so much emphasise on offense in this game is because nothing else matters. Look at the sorry state of enmity. It's become such a joke nowadays, they may as well remove it entirely come 5.0.

Alas, they aren't going to change things to that extent because it'd make things too hard on inexperienced players.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I'd love content with higher outgoing damage. The fact healers spend between 60-80% of their time DPSing is outright absurd. The whole reason people put so much emphasise on offense in this game is because nothing else matters. Look at the sorry state of enmity. It's become such a joke nowadays, they may as well remove it entirely come 5.0.

Alas, they aren't going to change things to that extent because it'd make things too hard on inexperienced players.

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A very good viewpoint. I like fights like Ratholos where there are almost no telegraphs and you are constantly moving(though once you learn the safe spot it becomes a face roll). Enemies dropping puddles that cause all sorts of bad if you stand in it is a good way to get people move out of it especially if it hits hard. The last boss in The Burn hits really hard even for mostly gear capped and melded tanks(healer was very undergeared and was not melded in my experience and I was playing DRK).

I'm okay with more incoming damage in fights, provided SE re-evaluates whether the defensive CDs are fairly distributed among the three tank jobs for their intended talents, and Paladin is given a little more enmity generation since we've already had a few of our abilities nickeled and dimed (including a proc where you'd basically have to perfectly execute four Sheltrons within a minute to achieve the much decried 600 combined potency *Le Gasp*).

IOW, you want us to be the stone wall with good to above average utility? Give us better defensive capabilities than we currently have. Reducing Sentinel from 40% to 30% reduction while giving it an improved (read: shorter) duty cycle would be a decent place to start.