Two Raid/Combat QoL Suggestions (Raise and Foe Requiem)

I'm sure there are other necessary QoL changes but these are pretty high on my list.

Raise

Raise, Ascend, VerRaise, and Resurrection all give the same effect of raise. Once you have a raise you don't need another. So why is it that the server still lets you cast raise on targets that have one already?

Losing a GCD, 15%-25% of your MP and burning swiftcast are all pretty big losses, but to do these things when they have been done 1 second before you is just anger inducing. Having the buff for raise should have a similar effect to being in a cut scene and reject the cast of others trying to raise the same target.

This has been an issue for as long as the skill has been a thing, so I'm just not sure why it wasn't addressed, other than maybe to create a false difficulty between communication of your party.

Foe Requiem


The second thing I want to bring up is Foe Requiem. Its a great skill, made better in 4.0 with the removal of the MP competition from old Army's paean and old Mage's Ballad. In places like raids and Eureka it has a habit of pulling bosses early, at no fault to the bard. They're just being a good bard and using their entire tool kit.

Why couldn't Foe Requiem be modified to only affect mobs who are within the radius AND have emnity with the bard. So casting prepull wouldn't cause the bard to accidentally pull the boss or to accidentally pull nearby enemies during light grind in eureka.

Anyone else think the same as me or know any other glaring QoL for the Combat system? Lol

Prepulling with Foe is the bards fault though, they need to time it better on the countdown. I agree with the raise thing though, it's annoying, macros don't solve anything either.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Once you have a raise you don't need another. So why is it that the server still lets you cast raise on targets that have one already?

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To pamper that "raise strangers" achieve.
More commonly though you're going to see two people trying to raise the same person before the first Raise buff was ever cast. That's a race condition not even on the side of the servers, but the players, one that cannot even be mitigated by the use of macros and what not. And then what do you suggest happens? it's one thing to give you back your MP (which still will be tricky because of server ticks), but it's nigh impossible to give you back the swiftcast.

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In places like raids and Eureka it has a habit of pulling bosses early, at no fault to the bard.

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It absolutely is the fault of the bard, either for using the skill incorrectly, or being ignorant of how it works. I tanked in-progress an Aurum Vale once. The former tank left after the BRD kept agroing the first room in its entirety with Foe's. The guy didn't seem to realize he was the one agroing everything until the end of the dungeon. He was using his entire kit; he was still not a very good brd.
Good brds, and players in general, should know what their skills do, and radius those skill have. And I disagree that a BRD using Foe's before anyone pulled is a good brd. They're just burning their mp at best. to which you'll probably say 'well it shouldn't eat mp unless it's affecting anything!' to which I'll say - at what point do you realize you've moved from QoL to buffing the skill to the point of breaking it? Part of using Foe's Requiem is to know when to use it. It's not rocket science not to hit it in a room full of mobs before your tank/s grabbed them all.

Now I wouldn't really mind seeing either of this. I just don't think it'll happen because of a mixture of server limitations and, well. Dumbing the gameplay down too much.

Now, I could see the first one being useful especially for someone hardcasting raise. But, if you're swiftcasting it, then yeah, it's pointless. You won't get Swiftcast back which is how raises are mostly done by players (not so bad for RDM with Dualcast). So it'll still draw complaints of "But I lost my Swiftcast to that!" - to which I'll just say "Suck it up buttercup". As for the latter, Billy said it better than I could. It is literally just a "Git gud" issue.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Prepulling with Foe is the bards fault though, they need to time it better on the countdown. I agree with the raise thing though, it's annoying, macros don't solve anything either.

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Yoshi P specifically apologized for fights like Sophia where a bard who did not specifically place themselves at the corner of the arena, would pull the boss, even if they backed up from the original starting spot.

Places like Eureka cause a bard to not even use the skill because of how tightly packed all of the mobs are. Are the any other skills in the game that can potentially pull a mob 40 yalms from the target?

Its silly and needs adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Now, I could see the first one being useful especially for someone hardcasting raise. But, if you're swiftcasting it, then yeah, it's pointless. You won't get Swiftcast back which is how raises are mostly done by players (not so bad for RDM with Dualcast). So it'll still draw complaints of "But I lost my Swiftcast to that!" - to which I'll just say "Suck it up buttercup". As for the latter, Billy said it better than I could. It is literally just a "Git gud" issue.

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Yeah you won't get swiftcast "back" but you can spend it on something else and continue to keep your DPS up. I'm not asking to get swiftcast "refunded" just not consumed by raise if its already in effect.

Also raise your hand if you heal or RDM/SMN in savage content. (Or EX. anything like that is fine.)

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Places like Eureka cause a bard to not even use the skill because of how tightly packed all of the mobs are. Are the any other skills in the game that can actually pull a mob who is potentially pull a mob 40 yalms from the target?

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And maybe you just need to better position yourself in Eureka, and if you can't position yourself better, just don't use it. Like Billy said, part of it is knowing what it does and how best to use it. For some areas that can mean there's no good time to use it, so don't. It's an AoE ability, just like the others, just with a pulsing aura essentially (that differentiates it from others). So again, I see no needs for adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Also raise your hand if you heal or RDM/SMN in savage content.

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o/ - WHM main in Savage. Going back to Savage again in 4.4 (currently on break due to static falling apart)

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Yeah you won't get swiftcast "back" but you can spend it on something else and continue to keep your DPS up. I'm not asking to get swiftcast "refunded" just not consumed by raise if its already in effect.

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That was meant more as an explanation, rather than trying to call you out there, so I apologise if I came across that way! Communication/social disability can really cause an issue at times. haha - but yeah, while it is true you can use it to keep your DPS up, most abilities on healers are GCD-length cast time or less, so you don't really gain anything, and still lose the Swiftcast. So it still becomes an annoyance.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Yoshi P specifically apologized for fights like Sophia where a bard who did not specifically place themselves at the corner of the arena, would pull the boss, even if they backed up from the original starting spot.

Places like Eureka cause a bard to not even use the skill because of how tightly packed all of the mobs are. Are the any other skills in the game that can actually pull a mob who is potentially pull a mob 40 yalms from the target?

Its silly and needs adjusted.

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Again, said bard needs to time the activation of the song better, Yoshi and his apologies be damned. Just get good.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Again, said bard needs to time the activation of the song better, Yoshi and his apologies be damned. Just get good.

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Didn't answer my question but thanks for your opinion! A yes or a no was all I was looking for. :]

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Yoshi P specifically apologized for fights like Sophia where a bard who did not specifically place themselves at the corner of the arena, would pull the boss, even if they backed up from the original starting spot.

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1. Source plz.
2. SE sometimes apologizes for things that are not their fault. A player's subpar performance is absolutely not something they should apologize for, they gave us all the tools to be able to perform at at least a certain level. Anything more or less is on us.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

1. Source plz.
2. SE sometimes apologizes for things that are not their fault. A player's subpar performance is absolutely not something they should apologize for, they gave us all the tools to be able to perform at at least a certain level. Anything more or less is on us.

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Bard's foe requiem on Sophia trial:

吉田 ”「女神ソフィア討滅戦」「極女神ソフィア討滅戦」にて、開始地点で「魔人のレクイエム」を使用すると敵視されてしまう…これ本当にすみません！すみません……魔人を歌わないように…(long pause) すみません…罠だって言われて…まぁ、スキルリセットで耐えるんで！（笑）…すみませんあの、多分…自分の曲じゃない曲を聞くと怒るかもしれない…確かにそうですね…これ本当にね気を付けてください、申し訳ないです。"
Yoshida "An issue in “Containment Bay P1T6” and “Containment Bay P1T6 (Extreme)” wherein using the bard action “Foe Requiem” at the starting point will generate enmity from the enemy.....We're sorry! We're really, really sorry! We truly sorry about this...but for now we advice you to NOT use Foe Requiem....(long pause)...sorry, for being told that it's a trap....well, you'll deal with it using skill reset! (laughs).....I'm sorry this...yeah people would be angry if they listen to songs that isn't theirs...yeah, you're indeed right. Please really take note on that, I'm really sorry."

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Translated Apology for Sophia Trial towards bards

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An issue in "Containment Bay P1T6" and "Containment Bay P1T6 (Extreme)" wherein using the bard action "Foe Requiem" at the starting point will generate enmity from the enemy.

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Patch Notes for 4.3. In the known issues.



This same sort of thing was an issue with Warrior's infurate or with WHM's Fluid Aura. Infuriate was causing large wait times in openers due to the 60 second countdown needed to maximize DPS. Fluid Aura was necessary for top WHM DPS, but would run havoc in dungeons because the majority of the playerbase who did use it, caused distress to those who tanked, who then complained on the forums. lol

I'm not saying the skill isn't great, I'm just saying that with the tools SE has, this should be an easy fix and should only affect gameplay positively for BRDs and people who party with them.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Foe aggoring things really is the Bard's fault right now, but at the same time, precedent for Foe-like skills not aggroing things already exists in the form of Machinist Hypercharge. (Hypercharge debuff will not apply to anything that does not have the Machinist on their aggro table.)

On that note, precedent for summons not immediately aggroing nearby enemies also already exists for MCH turrets as well.

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Really seems like a non-issue to me. Other than the arguement of git gud i keep getting handed.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Didn't answer my question but thanks for your opinion! A yes or a no was all I was looking for. :]

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I'm just saying, people need to stop taking Yoshi's word as gospel, especially one from 2 years ago in an incredibly isolated incident.

As for your "I know the answer but I'll ask anyway to make my point stronger" question, no there isn't to my knowledge, but it just reinforces the fact that you need to be aware of your Foe range/radius and not use it recklessly. Use your brain. Oh no my team is going to lose a 3% (?) damage buff! You know what's a bigger loss? You wiping the group because you're ignorant of your Foe range. So I'll say it once again. Get good.

:]

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

no there isn't to my knowledge

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Thanks! ;]

Foe aggoring things really is the Bard's fault right now, but at the same time, precedent for Foe-like skills not aggroing things already exists in the form of Machinist Hypercharge. (Hypercharge debuff will not apply to anything that does not have the Machinist on their aggro table.)

On that note, precedent for summons not immediately aggroing nearby enemies also already exists for MCH turrets as well.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Foe aggoring things really is the Bard's fault right now, but at the same time, precedent for Foe-like skills not aggroing things already exists in the form of Machinist Hypercharge. (Hypercharge debuff will not apply to anything that does not have the Machinist on their aggro table.)

On that note, precedent for summons not immediately aggroing nearby enemies also already exists for MCH turrets as well.

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Isn't that amazing? @-@

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Yoshi's apology

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Sophia's arena is pretty unique in structure because it's a rectangle where the party and the boss start off pretty close to each other, closer than in any encounter that comes to mind. It's an issue with the arena, and some bards not having the mental aptitude to realize they shouldn't use it in such close proximity to the boss. Yoshi apologized; still players' faults.
Your example of Fluid Aura doesn't support it any, either. Knockback skills were and still are an absolute pain in the neck for tanks, and to melee dps who have to chase after the add. Those complaints were very valid and removing damage from knockback skills to discourage people using them all the time was welcome. I'm sure your parse won't suffer too much as a result.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

MCH turret agro management

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Pets and summons are managed in different way than player characters. If players walked into a boss arena where most MCHs place their turrets, should they not agro the boss, too, because the turret didn't?
The answer is: that's a turret. This is a player character. Different management systems.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Sophia's arena is pretty unique in structure because it's a rectangle where the party and the boss start off pretty close to each other, closer than in any encounter that comes to mind. It's an issue with the arena, and some bards not having the mental aptitude to realize they shouldn't use it in such close proximity to the boss. Yoshi apologized; still players' faults.
Your example of Fluid Aura doesn't support it any, either. Knockback skills were and still are an absolute pain in the neck for tanks, and to melee dps who have to chase after the add. Those complaints were very valid and removing damage from knockback skills to discourage people using them all the time was welcome. I'm sure your parse won't suffer too much as a result.



Pets and summons are managed in different way than player characters. If players walked into a boss arena where most MCHs place their turrets, should they not agro the boss, too, because the turret didn't?
The answer is: that's a turret. This is a player character. Different management systems.

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All other pets generate aggro from their presence alone. So its not that cookie cutter. Saying "Its a pet. It has different rules." is not valid.

What about in "open world" content like Pagos. A bard smashes their face into a wall to get foe requiem up and still manages to pull a sprite 19 yalms away from themselves while chaining dragons. Answering "Git gud" is essentially saying "Don't use the skill in this situation at all for the whole time you're in here" instead of asking "Why didn't SE design the skill to better perform its job" instead of bending over backwards to compensate for it. Same thing in fates/NM. Don't play Foe Req if there are any adds coming, because with your luck no tanks are going to keep the mobs off of you.

Multiple skills were adjusted because they were negatively affecting gameplay causing players to make similar compensatory behaviors. Most skills that could stun or Silence were removed and the effects placed in role skills so that they weren't spammed causing early resistance gain. Was this a huge issue? No, but it was enough for the devs to address it.

I mean, they could just make Foe's an oGCD like every other song to get rid of early pulling.

As it stands now, even if timed properly, you can still accidentally pull early if your Foe's cast finds the server tick, since the debuff has to rely on that 3-second universal tick to apply. Proper usage with potions is at 4 seconds > pot > Refresh at START due to the delay with items queuing. Non-pot usages is between 2 and 3 of a countdown. Even timing my Foe's at 2 seconds, I still pull a fraction of a second early if I manage to find the server tick.

So, easiest solution? Make it an oGCD so that BRDs can just weave it in their opener.

As for enmity, decreasing Foe's radius could help. But situational awareness would still be needed on the part of the BRD.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

A bard smashes their face into a wall to get foe requiem up and still manages to pull a sprite 19 yalms away from themselves while chaining dragons.

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Compensatory QoL: limit Foe's range. You have better control over what you pull and you don't need to worry about agroing things from AROUND WALLS [looks at Stone Vigil]. You'll have to stay closer to the mobs/boss but in aoe situations BRDs already have to do that, and I feel like it's not that bad of a handicap. Would also have solved the Sophia issue since she'd have been out of range for it.

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Answering "Git gud" is essentially saying "Don't use the skill in this situation at all for the whole time you're in here"

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Not all skills should be used all the time. Sometimes it's better to not use certain skills. Being good means you know that. So, yeah. If you shouldn't use it, don't use it.

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Don't play Foe Req if there are any adds coming, because with your luck no tanks are going to keep the mobs off of you.

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I mean, if you run with chumps who don't do their jobs, sure.

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Most skills that could stun or Silence were removed and the effects placed in role skills so that they weren't spammed causing early resistance gain. Was this a huge issue? No, but it was enough for the devs to address it.

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Depends on content, it actually was. I've wiped enough times on Forgall's Succubus because everyone went stun happy and no one had a silence. I was thrilled when the devs changed that.

Hm. Here's an idea. Make Foe's unusable outside of battle. Solves the problem of early pulling with it, at least.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Multiple skills were adjusted because they were negatively affecting gameplay causing players to make similar compensatory behaviors. Most skills that could stun or Silence were removed and the effects placed in role skills so that they weren't spammed causing early resistance gain. Was this a huge issue? No, but it was enough for the devs to address it.

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I doubt that was the reason for that change, seeing how paladin still has their stun, how one of the dragoons-jumps still stuns aswell and how monks still have their stun-punch. My guess would be that it was in order to make sure that every party-composition would be able to stun/silence mechanics if needed (I remember the good old days of First Coil when every party HAD to have a bard and paladin combo in order to deal with the silence) - while multiple classes had access to stun and/or silence, for some it was a hassle or even meant a dps-loss, so now they made sure every class has the same way to stun/silence, without affecting the way the class plays (like how monks had to be in the right stance, ninjas had to pick the right poison, paladin and bard having to hold off their skills to silence something rather than use them freely...

I have to say I dont understand whats bothering you so much about Foe's and the fact that it requires some situational awareness to use it correctly - even if that means that sometimes there wont be a use for that skill. We need more skills that require situational awareness, if you ask me - not less. So working from your assumption on why they removed stun/silence from skills, I would say that that reason would have been a mistake, because it supports a blind button-mashing-mentality instead of requiring the person in question to actually pay attention to their surrondings and what they're fighting.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

What about in "open world" content like Pagos. A bard smashes their face into a wall to get foe requiem up and still manages to pull a sprite 19 yalms away from themselves while chaining dragons.

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To be fair, even if foe was reprogrammed to only affect enemies that have the bard on their aggro table, foe would still pull the sprite because it's considered a spell. Switching songs already does this since the three songs are considered spells. Then again, the Bard would have to stand fairly close to said sprite to aggro it.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Hm. Here's an idea. Make Foe's unusable outside of battle. Solves the problem of early pulling with it, at least.

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The problem is "early pulling", not the skill. That is not the only thing in the game that players have an tendency to trigger mobs with, sch/smn/acn/mch pets being just one of them. A similar case can be made for all untargeted AOE skills in the game including astrologian cards and ninja mudras.

If someone plays a bard, they should be aware of the distance that Foe Requiem operates at, and not use it until the tank pulls. If healers aren't allowed to cast things pre-pull, neither should DPS.

As a bard I know not to use foes in eureka, it's suicide. Unless I know I won't get aggroed. E.g. fighting louhi during the day

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Prepulling with Foe is the bards fault though, they need to time it better on the countdown.

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Hold on, it doesn't matter if its the BRDs fault or not, its still a good quality of life change that makes life easier. A lot of people are saying "git gud" to something that is an annoyance rather than a challenge.

The problem with trying to fix Foe's is that it's impossible to do it, or at the very least impossible in a way that won't slightly nerf it.
I imagine there's some kind of stipulation that makes mobs aggro to you the moment they get a status affliction no matter what because of the game's bad coding, if you change it so that you can only cast it in combat you're forcing BRDs to lose a GCD for something they used to be able to do pre-pull, and the other alternative, which is only having it apply to targets who you are in combat with already, forces you to use a GCD after casting Foe's in order to apply it, likely wasting a tick of it entirely on a spell that's already limited to like 4-5 ticks at most. Either way you try to slice it makes applying Foe's at the start of a fight more awkward than it needs to be for something that, in the end, isn't that big a deal since you should be timing it in a way that the boss is pulled the moment your Foe's cast ends anyway, avoiding this whole issue entirely.

And regarding the fact that it pulls mobs around you in Eureka, boy I sure hope none of you play WHM or RDM because Assize and Contre Sixte would drive you crazy.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

likely wasting a tick of it entirely on a spell that's already limited to like 4-5 ticks at most.

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To clarify, Foe’s is 7 ticks with full MP on a level 70 BRD if you don’t pair it with Refresh (~23 seconds duration), and 10 ticks if you pair it with Refresh (~32 seconds duration). But yes, forcing it to be an action only available in combat would waste an entire GCD applying it (and probably make for an awkward opener) unless they made it an oGCD like every other song BRD has. Then I could get behind it being a “in-combat only” action.

Early pulling isn’t an issue if BRDs know when to properly time their pre-pull Foe’s usage. Yes, there are instances where, even when you time it perfectly, you get “lucky” enough to find the server tick and pull a split second before the countdown finishes thanks to the debuff applying near-instantly, but it’s really not that detrimental to a group. Early pulling is only an issue if the BRD pulls way before the tank is even preparing to pull. Same how I don’t find too much of an issue with its usage in Eureka—be smart about it, and be aware of your surroundings. Reducing the radius of its area of effect may help enough to keep BRDs from having to shove themselves into a cliff side to not pull an innocent sprite, but since the debuff radiates outwards from the BRD themselves, they will always pull if mobs enter into hearing distance of the song. Same if mobs wander into a ground AOE, or into a Bishop Autoturret’s Hypercharge radius.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The problem with trying to fix Foe's is that it's impossible to do it, or at the very least impossible in a way that won't slightly nerf it.
I imagine there's some kind of stipulation that makes mobs aggro to you the moment they get a status affliction no matter what because of the game's bad coding, if you change it so that you can only cast it in combat you're forcing BRDs to lose a GCD for something they used to be able to do pre-pull, and the other alternative, which is only having it apply to targets who you are in combat with already, forces you to use a GCD after casting Foe's in order to apply it, likely wasting a tick of it entirely on a spell that's already limited to like 4-5 ticks at most. Either way you try to slice it makes applying Foe's at the start of a fight more awkward than it needs to be for something that, in the end, isn't that big a deal since you should be timing it in a way that the boss is pulled the moment your Foe's cast ends anyway, avoiding this whole issue entirely.

And regarding the fact that it pulls mobs around you in Eureka, boy I sure hope none of you play WHM or RDM because Assize and Contre Sixte would drive you crazy.

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The way I'd code it would be one of 2 options:

1) Only place debuff on enemies that have enmity with bard who are within range. Example would be: Prepull Casts foes, Boss is pulled, server tick happens and foes hit the boss.
2) Set the emnity of Foe Requiem to 0. This is completely possible. It was shown during the bug with Diversion + Smokescreen that actions can cause 0 emnity. Same thing happens if enough people attack the same target. Just recently in pagos, my warrior could mount mid NM and was unable to use infuriate because I was considered out of combat. 20+ seconds into the NM.

Either way, im much more interested in a change to raise than I am to Foe's if everyone is okay with its less than stellar design. lol